The Great American Novel: Does it exist?

Harry Angstrom

I've always been fascinated by this ideological term, and I've spent a lot of time trying to discover it for myself, only to realise that it probably doesn't exist in the first place, though I'm open to correction.
I'm just wondering if you've managed to discover it, or if there was a novel for you that came close to being described as "The Great American Novel". I've read a lot of Philip Roth, JD Salinger, Updike, Steinbeck, Mailer, F. Scott Fitzgerald etc. but I have to say (though I'll probably get a lot of stick for this) that the closest thing I've read to this beau ideal would be Jonathan Franzen's "The Corrections".

So, what's your idea of "The Great American Novel"?

PurpleBee

Adventures of Huckleberry Finn without a doubt

Grievous

I'd have similiar views with Harold Bloom.

1) Moby Dick.


McCarthy, Pynchon, Roth and Delillo are all Melvillian.


Blood Merdian is a great american nove, as it American Pastoral and most of Pynchon and Delillo's work.

Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man is a contender.

juan.kerr

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

though I'm open to correction.

How is someone else going to answer this question for you?

If you're open to correction, do a web search or find a critic that tells you what you should think. Otherwise stick with your own opinion.

'Sometimes a Great Notion' by Ken Kesey.

D!armu!d

juan.kerr wrote: »

How is someone else going to answer this question for you?

If you're open to correction, do a web search or find a critic that tells you what you should think. Otherwise stick with your own opinion.

That's an awful stupid comment. Someone could recommend a book that upon reading would change the op's opinion.

Moby Dick, House of the Seven Gables (or anything else by Hawthorne), Grapes of Wrath, Sometimes a Great Notion would be my candidates.

Harry Angstrom

juan.kerr wrote: »

How is someone else going to answer this question for you?

If you're open to correction, do a web search or find a critic that tells you what you should think. Otherwise stick with your own opinion.

Your name kinda suits you.

Denerick

Not sure what the OP is asking. Is there such a thing as the 'Great American novel'? Thats in the eye of the beholder really. Some of the more recent contenders would have be Tom Wolfe, John Irving, Jonathan Franzen, Phillip Roth etc. etc.

I think public opinion generally equates it with big bumper novels, Wolfe probably comes closest to it with 'Bonfire of the Vanities', or maybe Irving with 'Cider House Rules', novels like that always seem to me to epitomise the concept of the Great American novel. For some reason, in my own head, I wouldn't include the likes of Fitzgerald, Twain or Steinbeck. I'm not really too sure why that is.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Red Hand

The Little Friend by Donna Tart

Grievous

Denerick wrote: »

Not sure what the OP is asking. Is there such a thing as the 'Great American novel'? Thats in the eye of the beholder really. Some of the more recent contenders would have be Tom Wolfe, John Irving, Jonathan Franzen, Phillip Roth etc. etc.

I think public opinion generally equates it with big bumper novels, Wolfe probably comes closest to it with 'Bonfire of the Vanities', or maybe Irving with 'Cider House Rules', novels like that always seem to me to epitomise the concept of the Great American novel. For some reason, in my own head, I wouldn't include the likes of Fitzgerald, Twain or Steinbeck. I'm not really too sure why that is.

Seriously, Derenick? :-) I like your posts.
Even by that logic, someone like John Steinbeck would make your list on two counts: Page count and quality.

allprops

Underworld by Don DeLillo

MarchDub

William Faulkner has to be on the list.

And top of his list for me would be Absalom, Absalom followed closely by his Snopes Trilogy [The Hamlet, The Town, The Mansion].

Dades

Nobody for On The Road?

I'd also vouch for Huck Finn and Bonfire of the Vanities.

PurpleBee

Denerick wrote: »

For some reason, in my own head, I wouldn't include the likes of Fitzgerald, Twain or Steinbeck. I'm not really too sure why that is.

well if those three are excluded then the great american novel probably isn't worth talking about!

fusuf

Of Mice And Men.

Harry Angstrom

Red Hand wrote: »

The Little Friend by Donna Tart

I liked that book but I preferred The Secret History so much more. She's a great writer though.

Fenny

Whenever I hear 'Great American Novel', I always think of The Great Gatsby, even though I never liked it that much. I think it's the equivalence with the American dream, though I suppose most American novels deal with that in some way.

MarchDub wrote: »

William Faulkner has to be on the list.

And top of his list for me would be Absalom, Absalom followed closely by his Snopes Trilogy [The Hamlet, The Town, The Mansion].

But Faulkner I'd have to give my vote to. It's got all of the sweeping family saga type stuff that's in most of the other novels, but it's so amazingly structured and written as well.

I am pie

+ 1 for Ellison's Invisible Man, i also like Rabbit, Run and Updike's other Harry Angstrom novels.

I am pie

ps..I read 'The Great American Novel' - Roth's baseball novel, but to be honest to get the most out of it you would need a certain affinity for baseball. Maybe that qualifies the title all the more !

two wheels good

fusuf wrote: »

Of Mice And Men.

I'd suggest "East of Eden"

old gregg

I'd agree with Moby-Dick, The Sound and the Fury and I'd add The Catcher in the Rye, but I'd have to go with To Kill a Mockingbird as my personal favourite American novel.

two wheels good

two wheels good wrote: »

I'd suggest "East of Eden"

I meant "Grapes of Wrath". Depression, migration, exploitation, family - a real epic. (I can't even remember what East of Eden is about)

I looked up the GAN and found

"The "Great American Novel" is the concept of a novel that is distinguished in both craft and theme as being the most accurate representative of the zeitgeist in the United States at the time of its writing. It is presumed to be written by an American author who is knowledgeable about the state, culture, and perspective of the common American citizen. In historical terms, it is sometimes equated as being the American response to the national epic."

Now I feel very badly read.

Valmont

I've tried to write this post three times--I just can't make my mind up. All I keep ending up with is a list of American novels saturated with the culture as I understand it:

Lolita
On the Road
The Sound and the Fury
Humboldt's gift


A culture which I think is ultimately too diverse to pick "the great one"!

edit: I agree with oldgregg actually although I haven't read Moby Dick.

bitlocked

While not a novel I think Death of a Salesman is the greatest piece of American Fiction I've ever read.

A friend lent me "American Gods" and told me to expect it to be the Great American Novel. In short, it was not. I loathed it.

mickoregan

"The Great American Novel" is a concept which can mean anything to anybody, just like "The American Dream".
There can never be just one. There can only be opinions, choices, favourites.
I suppose one could try and talk about a particular writer who has best encapsulated American life of his or her time, but again the list would be long.
So, in answer to the OP, I would say - no, "it" does not exist.

Tombo2000

Adventures of Huckleberry Finn....to paraphrase an earlier contribution...."without a doubt".

Obviously there are many other contenders.

Of modern times I thought The Crossing and All the Pretty Horses were fantastic.

Tombo2000

incidentally what Saul Bellow would people recommend?

bullpost

For me its the albany trilogy by William Kennedy,

mickoregan

I'm interested in how those of you who have made some nominations would define "The Great American Novel".

Surely, your nominations would better come under the heading "My Favourite American Novel". No?

Ormus

mickoregan wrote: »

"The Great American Novel" is a concept which can mean anything to anybody, just like "The American Dream".
There can never be just one. There can only be opinions, choices, favourites.
I suppose one could try and talk about a particular writer who has best encapsulated American life of his or her time, but again the list would be long.
So, in answer to the OP, I would say - no, "it" does not exist.

I disagree. The Great American Novel can't be someone's subjective idea of an American novel which they consider to be great.

It should be a novel which perfectly captures America at that time. That's what the concept means.

Grapes of Wrath ticks all the boxes. Although I enjoyed East of Eden more.

mickoregan

Ormus wrote: »

It should be a novel which perfectly captures America at that time.

Right. Then, there can never be "THE" great american novel - just many great american novels.
Once again, in answer to the OP, the answer must be - no, "it" doesn't exist.

Tombo2000

mickoregan wrote: »

Ormus wrote: »

It should be a novel which perfectly captures America at that time.

Right. Then, there can never be "THE" great american novel - just many great american novels.
Once again, in answer to the OP, the answer must be - no, "it" doesn't exist.

Mick

I think to be fair, the concept is not "The Great American Novel" of which there can be only one; rather is the concept of the "Great American Novel"....which conceptually refers to the novel which captures the essence of what America is for a particular generation or era.

I think in the past it was easier for a novelist to do this as that country was less complex.......1930s America was defined by the recession and the Grapes of Wrath captures this......similarly the roaring twenties and The Great Gatsby.....

I dont actually know what a Great American Novel of the 2000s might deal with, as there is no defining societal shift that one can refer to......I'd say something like The Wire is the closest thing to a great American novel in recent years, except that its not a novel.

mickoregan

Yes, yes, yes....correct.

I was under the impression from the original post that the OP felt that there could be only one and was looking for suggestions as to which one would come nearest in the board's opinion.

I was just stating that there could not be only one.

I'm tired now....:)

Enkidu

I've always found Moby Dick very monotonous, I basically had to force myself to finish it. The development of many characters goes nowhere (e.g. the boat hand who just disappears from the story half way through) and I find that Melville is quite poor at creating a vivid image of a scene except near the start and somewhat toward the end.

However I suspect that this is because I'm missing something, I'd like to read it again with a fuller understanding. I recently did this with Dickens and the difference it makes once you "get" an author is a big one. Anybody have any pointers?

WoollyRedHat

Of mice and men, and The Grapes of Wrath, John Steinbeck

Enkidu

Enkidu wrote: »

I've always found Moby Dick very monotonous, I basically had to force myself to finish it. The development of many characters goes nowhere (e.g. the boat hand who just disappears from the story half way through) and I find that Melville is quite poor at creating a vivid image of a scene except near the start and somewhat toward the end.

However I suspect that this is because I'm missing something, I'd like to read it again with a fuller understanding. I recently did this with Dickens and the difference it makes once you "get" an author is a big one. Anybody have any pointers?

Completely agree with your thoughts on Moby Dick. Every second chapter reads like an instruction manual for various antiquated whaling/boating apparatuses.

I would consider The Great Gatsby, The Grapes of Wrath and Blood Meridian to be fine examples of the Great american novel.

ush

Gravity's Rainbow and the Twilight Series.

ush

ush wrote: »

Gravity's Rainbow and the Twilight Series.

Is there any way to only thank the first part?

johnny_ultimate

I'd say Infinite Jest would kind of fall into this category for me. It, like the country of its origin, is an obese mess, but it's a glorious celebration and/or harsh critique of pretty much every aspect of modern American life - from politics to gluttony and - of course - the mass media and the constant search for mindless entertainment and distraction.

Plus, you've got love how Foster Wallace handles the perceived 'Canadian Problem' in it :P

apsalar

Ormus wrote: »

I disagree. The Great American Novel can't be someone's subjective idea of an American novel which they consider to be great.

It should be a novel which perfectly captures America at that time. That's what the concept means.

Grapes of Wrath ticks all the boxes. Although I enjoyed East of Eden more.

Completely agree with this...it's all subjective and depends on what ones tastes are, but I think enjoyment of the story itself is equally important as tone, language etc...my nominees are:

The Red badge of Courage

Death of a Salesman (I know it's a play, but I think it's a contender)

ush

Deleted User wrote: »

Is there any way to only thank the first part?

Thank the poster and then report the post.

--Kaiser--

I'd put Blood Meridian, Moby Dick and The Catcher in the Rye in this category

raah!

I agree that "Great American Novel" has to mean "novel which captures perfectly America at a certain time" if it is to mean anything at all.

But since I don't really have too great a knowledge of what America was like at any time I'll just have to go for Huckleberry finn, as my "Great American Novel" and Moby Dick as my favourite american novel.

ush

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I'd put Blood Meridian, Moby Dick and The Catcher in the Rye in this category

And you doing so well there. Holden Caulfield is a whining little twät.

Lady von Purple

I wouldn't go so far as to say 'The Great American Novel' is a subjective term, but I also don't think it's a definitive term.

It does mean different things to different people, but that's because people infer different meanings onto it, it's a category that doesn't come with a set of terms and conditions. For example, I always thought The Great American Novel would be one that represented and embodied The American Dream. Of which the closest I've seen (though highly debatable) would be The Great Gatsby.

The problem I have with the phrase is it singles out one specific text. Even if you say that this particular novel is timeless and will remain The Great American Novel, there may still be future novels that better represent the American ideal. So I think it's a phrase that isn't remotely specific enough and as a result it winds up meaning all things to all men, and is also fallacious if it really is, like it sounds, promoting one novel above all other novels.

ush

ush wrote: »

Thank the poster and then report the post.

Done and done :P

ush wrote: »

And you doing so well there. Holden Caulfield is a whining little twät.

He is indeed but isn't that an integral part of the overall story.
Same way Ferris Bueller is cocky little git.

PurpleBee

Lady von Purple wrote: »

promoting one novel above all other novels.

the great american novel is a great Americanism, where being the best and worshiping the best and owning the best is all important.

But to me it seems the best novels commonly referred to as "great american" are those that interrogate the idea of the american dream most closely and shun the hierarchy into which they're eventually subsumed.

I think the piece of art which most comfortably fits this category is actually a poem... "song of myself" by Walt Whitman.

Harry Angstrom

ush wrote: »

And you doing so well there. Holden Caulfield is a whining little twät.

I wouldn't necessarily say that about Holden Caulfield. I'd say he was mixed up and misunderstood and on the verge of a nervous breakdown. If that sounds like whining to you, then I hope you don't practice psychiatry for a living .

--Kaiser--

ush wrote: »

And you doing so well there. Holden Caulfield is a whining little twät.

That's the thing with the book, you can either stand him or you can't. The book itself is incredibly well written (IMO). I re-read it last year (the first time since the Leaving Cert) and I literally could not put it down until it was finshed

ush

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

That's the thing with the book, you can either stand him or you can't. The book itself is incredibly well written (IMO). I re-read it last year (the first time since the Leaving Cert) and I literally could not put it down until it was finshed

I could stand him as a teenager. But not when I tried to reread it as an adult.