Holstein vrs British Fresian

Looney1

Was just wondering peoples opinion on the merits of holstein vrs British Fresian cows for dairy. A friend of mine has just taken over a 50 cow dairy herd mainly Holstein and was wondering whether to gradually convert towards British Fresian. Also was wondering if A.I. is the way to go as there is a lot of Dud stock bulls around

blue5000

Depends really what he is going to do with the male calves. I think pure br fresians are simply......... gone.

Looney1

Id say the calves will be offloaded straight away

mcgyvor

i would say select bulls based on ebi 1st also select cows for breeding based on
milk recording would not get too hung up on holstein v freisan

JohnBoy

Much and all as I prefer the more traditional looking freisan to the holstein yokes I'd have to say that the value of the bull calf really shouldnt be a deciding factor in a pure dairying operation. unless you're planning on rearing them to beef yourself then there's relatively negligible difference in value between a holstein bull and a freisan one.


if you can maximise your cow profitability and still get a more valuable calf then great, but focus on making money from the girls, not the boys.

Looney1

Any suggestions on what A.I. bulls to use

6480

i am sorry i didnt stay with the british fresian but hopefully in 2013 my herd will be all british fresian again . The merits of the holstein just dont add up for me , espiceally when i get paid on A+B-C . bulk milk tank test is around 3.56 pr , 3.85 bf

whelan1

i bought a br/fr bull nearly 2 years ago, had been holstein all the way for years before that, the main reason i bought him was to put some strength back in to the cows. The holsteins are not very hardy imo, the difference in the health of the calves is unreal, the holstein calf would give up and die , the br/fr is a strong sturdy calf.... calf sale value is also a factor but wouldnt be my main reason for changing to br/fr... have used hol/fr ai on my autums section and br/fr bull is with them now to clean up, so not fully gone from holsteins... just want to strengthen the cows back up again

6480

whelan1 wrote: »

i bought a br/fr bull nearly 2 years ago, had been holstein all the way for years before that, the main reason i bought him was to put some strength back in to the cows. The holsteins are not very hardy imo, the difference in the health of the calves is unreal, the holstein calf would give up and die , the br/fr is a strong sturdy calf.... calf sale value is also a factor but wouldnt be my main reason for changing to br/fr... have used hol/fr ai on my autums section and br/fr bull is with them now to clean up, so not fully gone from holsteins... just want to strengthen the cows back up again

i plan to breed the holstein back again next year and try not to go too far with either breed , one for strenght , power, solids and the other girl for high milk output

up outa dat

As said above I wouldn't get too hung up on one or the other, Would use A.I. and pick the bulls based on ebi, type, etc. . At least with AI you can chose the bull to match each cow and all your eggs wouldn't be in the one basket as with a stock bull.

bogman_bass

personally I think the best cow you can get is the british friesian/holstien cross. use BF on anything thats gone too angular and holstein
to boost milk

bogman_bass

Looney1 wrote: »

Any suggestions on what A.I. bulls to use

WLO, CZF, TZU. are 3 good british friesians. Dovea always have a good selection too

5live

bogman_bass wrote: »

personally I think the best cow you can get is the british friesian/holstien cross. use BF on anything thats gone too angular and holstein
to boost milk

+1 there. I wouldnt get too upset over what breed to use. Unless your friend has a beef enterprise and is keeping the calves it wont make any difference in bull calf price as at up to 1 month old you cant really tell a holstein from a BF.

And there are plenty of holstein bulls out there that are comparable to BF bulls in terms of rump width and beef charachteristics.

My advice would be to choose bulls to improve what charachteristics are poor on his dairy herd, ie top fertility figures if the fertility is poor, top protein% if that is poor etc.

The colour/breed of the bull doesnt make the money, its the stuff in the tank and how good that is that will be paying the bills

The Grazer

Breeding Decisions made this coming season will come into play in 5years time when the cows are mature and milking to there full potential.

Breeding Decisions depend on a number of things:
1)What production system does he want to practice(i.e. High input or all grass)
2)Cow type and current performance (i.e milk yield solids content SCC issues)
3)Health Issues on farm

cattle fanatic

British Friesian are the most balanced option - low feed costs, high protein, saleable offspring, higher cull cow value. Less milk than a Holstein but with everything taken into the equation, a British Friesian herd will leave more money in the bank than a Holstein herd.

frazzledhome

cattle fanatic wrote: »

British Friesian are the most balanced option - low feed costs, high protein, saleable offspring, higher cull cow value. Less milk than a Holstein but with everything taken into the equation, a British Friesian herd will leave more money in the bank than a Holstein herd.

This should be good

Mulumpy

Wait til Mahoney gets at you. Have to disagree have a bf base herd here. Been using holstein on them past few years yield and solids have increased significantly. Not worried about the calf are sold at 2 weeks anyway.

mahoney_j

frazzledhome wrote: »

This should be good

Hmmmm I quite like the br freisan but currently a well bred high ebi Holstein is a far superior ainmAl in most respects,for the life of me I can't figure why more research isn't been put into the br freisan as it will give a much more complete ainmAl than going the other way(jex).my herds base was a traditional dovea type ainmAl and from the first few crioses there was massive improvements in milk kg and solids kg.this has continued to improve through the use of high ebi Holstein bulls.if there was a better pool of br freisans out there I'd be putting some of my milkier cows on them but the amount of high ebi Holsteins is so diverse that I've no need to

sheebadog

BF or HOL?

I would put it to all here that the end game of constant expansion/efficiency ye will all end up with more HOL than any other breed.

Sooner or later expansion has to end up in a high input animal. Just extrapolate.

Brown Podzol

sheebadog wrote: »

BF or HOL?

I would put it to all here that the end game of constant expansion/efficiency ye will all end up with more HOL than any other breed.

Sooner or later expansion has to end up in a high input animal. Just extrapolate.

As stocking rate increases on the grazing block more concentrates will be used. The Holstein is a much more efficient converter of feed into milk. Moorepark figures are 1.5lts/kg conc for the high milk Holstein v's .75lts/kg for the kiwi type friesian.

sheebadog

Brown Podzol wrote: »

As stocking rate increases on the grazing block more concentrates will be used. The Holstein is a much more efficient converter of feed into milk. Moorepark figures are 1.5lts/kg conc for the high milk Holstein v's .75lts/kg for the kiwi type friesian.

Exactly.

Timmaay

PG offerings of pure BF bulls is shocking to be honest, and the main reason I'll be avoiding them. Milk solids are just rubbish from them. I'd go Jersey well before use one of them. Having said all that, there are some nice HOs with a fair bit of BF in them, likes of BHZ, have afew of them in the parlour now, HYY also, 300EBI and plenty of solids.

Gillespy

They're as British Fresian as Goldwyn. Isn't it a contentious issue with BF breed society that LIC even use the word fresian at all? I don't know those particular bulls, I just see they're NZ.

It's very easy to recognize true BF by the prefix, there are only a handful of them to learn.

bogman_bass

I'd love to visit the Catlane herd in england and see what the set up was like there. To be so dominant in a breed for so long takes some doing

blackdog1

I think the main problem with farmers getting too dairy type snimals..I.e tall and skinny with small capacity is thst alot of these bulls progenys are not being looked at nowadays due to ebi. Prior to this there used to be alot of farmers going to foreign shows. Nowadays even the salesmen dont go because its become all number based which to me is a shame. The best farmers are still going to shows and you can see the results with their stock.

blackdog1

Oh and I would pick holstein over bf mainly due to their capacity to covert feed into milk. I would try to stay away from huge animals but they have to have good capacity , udders and feet. Looks for bulls with those traits that aren't too high in stature and make sure you get proven bulls not genomic.

If your holsteins aren't too big they do just fine on lower meal diets during high feed times but also have the ability to turn on a tap when fed high during lower feed prices. This is what im finding anyway. I stay away from the huge canadian and usa holstein and concentrate on the smaller dutch and french ones. They tend to have higher solids too as they have been breeding for it alot longer than the other 2 who for years were concentrating on mainly milk yield

Gillespy

bogman_bass wrote: »

I'd love to visit the Catlane herd in england and see what the set up was like there. To be so dominant in a breed for so long takes some doing

Indeed. Who would be a holstein equivalent? Comestar? Larger breed so unlikely to have such dominance. They have several millionaire bulls and are still going.

bogman_bass

many of the big famous Canadian heards are slipping down the rankings mainly because they played the system so much with figures for so long that now that it doesnt work any more thanks to genomics they are getting left behind.

The call it the "hothouse effect"

Gillespy

But that's just your opinion on Canada, Comestar bulls have been very successful for a long time all over the world and left plenty of great cows in Ireland. Catlane and BF in general have been left behind completely whatever way you look at it too, still doesn't take away from their achievement and longevity.

biddy2013

used br/fr stockbulls for the last few years. heifers coming in are big and hardy i am now crossing these with high ebi bulls like kbs, I sold my br/fr bull and dont know what bull to buy next

Viewtodiefor

biddy2013 wrote: »

used br/fr stockbulls for the last few years. heifers coming in are big and hardy i am now crossing these with high ebi bulls like kbs, I sold my br/fr bull and dont know what bull to buy next

Buy an aa for "cleanup only" use all ai on the rest with high ebi. Best decision you'll ever make. We had stock bulls hear for donkeys years and changed to ai about 20 yrs ago never looked back the quality of cows and milk production/ solids etc were transformed.

biddy2013

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Buy an aa for "cleanup only" use all ai on the rest with high ebi. Best decision you'll ever make. We had stock bulls hear for donkeys years and changed to ai about 20 yrs ago never looked back the quality of cows and milk production/ solids etc were transformed.

ah i use ai , the br/fr bulls where for clean up only. Iwanted to put a bit of depth back into the cows , the hol would turn around and die where as the br/fr has a bit more hardiness in them.

Viewtodiefor

biddy2013 wrote: »

ah i use ai , the br/fr bulls where for clean up only. Iwanted to put a bit of depth back into the cows , the hol would turn around and die where as the br/fr has a bit more hardiness in them.

No doubts they are not as hardy as the British fresian think the key is getting the right mix, if u have big land base then they may not be the answer however if restricted I think they are the only way to go plus the not so extreme ones crossed with b/f might be sturdier. It's the age old debate again ha!

Gillespy

Saying holsteins roll over and die at the first turn is the same as saying BFs dry themselves off in August. Maybe not the same thing, one is a slight exaggeration, deep down we all know which one is true though.:P

biddy2013

Gillespy wrote: »

Saying holsteins roll over and die at the first turn is the same as saying BFs dry themselves off in August. Maybe not the same thing, one is a slight exaggeration, deep down we all know which one is true though.:P

nah its the calves i am talking about..the bf have something to fall back on

Deepsouthwest

biddy2013 wrote: »

nah its the calves i am talking about..the bf have something to fall back on

Can't understand people picking a dairy cow breed based on calf value, surely that's what u call the tail wagging the dog! Would love to use more British friesan here, would make a great outcross, but have yet to find one with good protein. A lot of the ones I've seen in catalogues lately are even negative in kilos of protein

biddy2013

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Can't understand people picking a dairy cow breed based on calf value, surely that's what u call the tail wagging the dog! Would love to use more British friesan here, would make a great outcross, but have yet to find one with good protein. A lot of the ones I've seen in catalogues lately are even negative in kilos of protein

due to alot of calf deaths here i needed something a bit stronger, now all that is hopefully sorted . Bought a hol/fr bull a few years ago and 95% of his calves died, calves that where out of aa bull where all flying it:mad: vet said it was the bulls fault but it was a pure sickner for me.

Future Farmer

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Can't understand people picking a dairy cow breed based on calf value, surely that's what u call the tail wagging the dog! Would love to use more British friesan here, would make a great outcross, but have yet to find one with good protein. A lot of the ones I've seen in catalogues lately are even negative in kilos of protein

Totally agree with you, dairy farmers are in the business of selling milk not bull calves, farmers haggle over 30/40euro more for a bull calf, when that is just another few days milk for a reasonable Hol Fr Cow.

I think the market for Br Fr is very limited, small, blocky cows that don't push themselves to produce milk & haven't great solids, if you feed them to try and get them to produce more, they put it on their back (Unlike Hol Fr who will produce milk, at a cost to themselves if not fed properly).

Br Fr might be viable economically down south, but not in the rest of the country, am I wrong or has my liquid milk upbringing warped my perspective?
(Would genuinely appreciate feedback)

biddy2013

the calves have to survive to be milked, prefer a live br/fr heifer than a dead hol/fr. Anyways i am finished crossing with br/fr now so will have to look for something else

Henwin

M fiancee has a herd of 48 pedigree registered holstein friesan cows for the last number of years. he buys in a holstein bull in April every year and another for the heifers who are on an outside leased farm. He has 43 acres of grazing ground.
He is currently not happy with the maintenance of the cows. They get lame, their calves are not very handy etc. However most are great milkers.
So he is thinking of getting a BR bull in this year to strenghten the cows a bit more. He is also thinking of buying a Jersey bull for the Maiden heifers but he isnt sure bout this. Wud milk volume decrease a lot with the british friesan cross.

mahoney_j

Henwin wrote: »

M fiancee has a herd of 48 pedigree registered holstein friesan cows for the last number of years. he buys in a holstein bull in April every year and another for the heifers who are on an outside leased farm. He has 43 acres of grazing ground.
He is currently not happy with the maintenance of the cows. They get lame, their calves are not very handy etc. However most are great milkers.
So he is thinking of getting a BR bull in this year to strenghten the cows a bit more. He is also thinking of buying a Jersey bull for the Maiden heifers but he isnt sure bout this. Wud milk volume decrease a lot with the british friesan cross.

Depends on the bull but on ur tall extreme Holstein it will bring a smaller ainmAl with maby a bit less milk potential ,improved solids kg and better fertility.its a much better bet than bringing in a jersey .can see why u want to change from hol but use ebi and herd plus sure advice to improve what u need(less milk more solids and better fertility).hol freisan bulls are now a lot more diverse thanks to ebi.

bogman_bass

I found them to be much more forgiving animals to work with. If you slip up in your management with the HO you will see the effects but the BF girl will take it all in her stride. sudden changes in weather or having to use lesser forage as happened last year wont knock them back as much.

Now you might say that I was just a bad dairy farmer but last year showed us that best laid plans go out the window sometimes

Fertility, calving ability and survivability are all pluses.

There are lads that put too much value on calf price but it's still worth another 1c a litre which isnt a lot on a good year like this year but on a bad year it is very welcome!

There is no denying the lower production, like anything there is a trade-off.
Thats why we would have crossed back to HO. The 50-50 HO/BFr gives the best of both worlds IMO

mf240

Depending on your view point if holsteins aren't preforming,then either the farmer needs better cows or the cows need a better farmer.

mf240

Holsteins are dairy cows

British friesans are dual purpose.

Jerseys are for people who like grass but not cows.

Brown Podzol

Henwin wrote: »

M fiancee has a herd of 48 pedigree registered holstein friesan cows for the last number of years. he buys in a holstein bull in April every year and another for the heifers who are on an outside leased farm. He has 43 acres of grazing ground.
He is currently not happy with the maintenance of the cows. They get lame, their calves are not very handy etc. However most are great milkers.
So he is thinking of getting a BR bull in this year to strenghten the cows a bit more. He is also thinking of buying a Jersey bull for the Maiden heifers but he isnt sure bout this. Wud milk volume decrease a lot with the british friesan cross.

A half bred BF bull from a good Hol cow , giving quarter bred BF calves could be the answer. I used a TIH son from a 10k ltr cow to clean up 5 and 6 years ago, sold most of the progeny but the ones that entered the herd are nice square cows with very good solids. The bull now has an EBI of c.190.

bogman_bass

mf240 wrote: »

Holsteins are dairy cows

British friesans are dual purpose.

Jerseys are for people who like grass but not cows.

http://www.thebullvine.com/photo-gallery/royal-winter-fair-2013-jersey-senior-and-grand-champion/

How can you say that they arent dairy cows?

Gillespy

Ironically, holstein detractors would post pictures the winning holstein cow.:D

sheebadog

mf240 wrote: »

Holsteins are dairy cows

British friesans are dual purpose.

Jerseys are for people who like grass but not cows.

Now now down with that sort or thing!

keep going

mf240 wrote: »

Holsteins are dairy cows

British friesans are dual purpose.

Jerseys are for people who like grass but not cows.

Could also be said Holstein are for people who like talking about litres, people with jerseys like talking about profit.personally dont rate bf

farmingmad10

Holsteins.

Milked out

Use Ai and get the best of both worlds, match each cow to a bull that will improve her worst traits, only reason I would use pure fr is if I had a cow which ended up very narrow