Met two unusal and rare breeds today.

Bullseye1

Out walking my Ridgey today and came across two very rare breeds. A Black Russian Terrier ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Russian_Terrier ) and a Caucasian Shepard Dog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Shepherd_Dog). Both very large and impressive dogs. Anyone have any experience with these. The Shepard was only 8-9 months old and already twice the size of my Ridgeback. Beautiful dogs.

andreac

Well the Black Russian i would have experience with. My friends own and show them so i see them all the time at shows.

The Caucasion Shepherd would be very rare and really are not a dog for many people, as their temperament can be very odd if im right.

Bullseye1

I did not realise the BRs were so large. He must have been 28-30" tall.

FoxyVixen

Caucasian shephards are rare enough in Ireland. Pretty common in Poland, Russia and round there.

Never been lucky enough to see one. Amazing looking animal. Makes an Akita look like a rat .

Think they're similiar to the Akita in that they're a one-man dog and very independant. But this is just what I've picked up reading up on them when first came across them.

The Sweeper

I'd question the motives of anyone getting a caucasian or central asian ovtcharka to live in a residential back yard. I'd also wonder where they sourced it from.

They're a prime candidate dog for the restricted breed list because of their size, power and their fiercely independent temperament. They're bred to be left alone for MONTHS with a flock - so literally a guardian breed designed to bond with its charges, find its own food and water (they may have some food left but mostly they'd supplement with what they could hunt themselves), weather the elements for months with little or no human companionship. Much of their breeding in the true working strains really is through evolution - the weak won't last in the job and won't be bred from, so only the biggest, strongest, hardiest, most intelligent, most independent and dogs with the ability to bring great potential aggression will be bred from.

...I wouldn't say this about many breeds, but they don't belong in a back yard.

FoxyVixen

Aren't they being used as hunting dogs now too though in their countries of origin? Think I read somewhere that farming herds weren't as common as they once were and this was the new job they were being bred for?

Probably completely wrong on it, and can't find where I read that now.

There's actually one advertised on a certain unpopular animal selling website for the last few weeks. More of a Newfoundland/Elkhound cross or something similiar.

Hope to God they're not the new "designer" dog seeing as so many other independant minded dogs like Akitas are ending up in rescues more often on account of people not capable of handling them.

fred funk }{

Was this in the Arklow area by any chance? Because I met a couple with two dogs the very same during the summer. Very impressive dogs, to put it mildly.

The Sweeper

FoxyVixen wrote: »

Aren't they being used as hunting dogs now too though in their countries of origin?

Dunno about the hunting but it wouldn't surprise me. They use them as fighting dogs, that much I know - two intact males will put on quite the show if you're the sort of ingrate who's into that sort of thing.

The caucasian seems to be a lot hairier than the central asian. There was a central asian breeder at my obedience class when I was training with Gus under 12 months. His dog at a year old was up to my ribs with a head the size of a bear and it was already 65 kgs or something crazy, with a destined adult weight of upwards from 80kgs based on the weights of the sire and dam. They were on an acreage property, I remember that much - 70 acres or more, and they had a few adults - five or six. His was black and white and it reminded me all the world of someone having stretched a St Bernard over the frame of a Great Dane. It was a hell of a lot of dog.

The dog at obedience was a serious 'resource guarder' over his owners - you couldn't even stand up quickly in the class or he'd kick off and he lay there and growled through most of the time the instructor spent speaking, a sort of low level rumble like a sub woofer (no pun intended).

(Saying that, the wee birdie South African woman married to the bloke who bred them was about 5ft 4" and she used to grab this behemoth by the chops and look straight into his face to get his attention when she wanted to give out to him. And she was afraid of my dog because he's a boisterous bull breed mix... o_O )

Honey-ec

The Sweeper wrote: »

There was a central asian breeder at my obedience class when I was training with Gus under 12 months. His dog at a year old was up to my ribs with a head the size of a bear and it was already 65 kgs or something crazy, with a destined adult weight of upwards from 80kgs based on the weights of the sire and dam.

Jesus Christ, 65kg is my weight. How the hell can people afford to feed a dog that size?

Shanao

Honey-ec wrote: »

Jesus Christ, 65kg is my weight. How the hell can people afford to feed a dog that size?

Only by their owners buying their own food in aldi and tesco:P My boy has just reached 62kgs and honestly, he doesn't eat as much as I thought he would.


On the Caucasian sheps, I would be very wary about anyone who owned one over here. I know very few people that I would even consider capable of handling one, as Sweeper said, this is a lot of dog. I had considered getting one down the line, but I can honestly say I doubt I would be able to properly cater for one. I also saw them on a less than reputable site for sale. Really hope they're proper breeders (doubt it when they're on that site though) or I'm pretty sure we'll see another breed joining the list of restricteds.

Cows Go µ

I know someone with a Black Russian terrier, gorgeous big dog. They have a Briard too (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briard). Two unusual but really lovely dogs. Look hilarious beside their Pap, they are the sort of dogs I love cuddling up with, lovely big hairy guys

Bullseye1

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Was this in the Arklow area by any chance? Because I met a couple with two dogs the very same during the summer. Very impressive dogs, to put it mildly.

Yeah on south beach. The guy who owned them was very nice and approachable. He is trying to socialise the Shepard with as many dogs as he can. He looked like a big softie but very very powerful. At first I thought it was a Leonberger and his Russian Black Terrier I though it was a Giant Schnauzer. But he was happy to talk all about them. I didn't ask him where he lived but I'd imagine you would need a good size garden for one. Although reading up on them they are not very active.

fred funk }{

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Yeah on south beach. The guy who owned them was very nice and approachable. He is trying to socialise the Shepard with as many dogs as he can. He looked like a big softie but very very powerful. At first I thought it was a Leonberger and his Russian Black Terrier I though it was a Giant Schnauzer. But he was happy to talk all about them. I didn't ask him where he lived but I'd imagine you would need a good size garden for one. Although reading up on them they are not very active.

I meet him down at the quarry one day. Amazing dogs, The black dog had a hair bobbin in its hair for when it was swimming. Gave me a laugh.

Caucasian Ovcharka

Hi,

I have always been a fan of boards.ie but never had the drive to join until I saw this post hence I joined. So please go easy on me.

I have a Caucasian Shepard and I had a essay written in reply to this post but I when I spell checked it disappeared probably for the best as I went off on one in a critical way about the breeder in Ireland who has pumped between more than 30 pups into the Irish market with his 2 bitches.

I love the breed but as others have pointed out there is an element of a ticking time bomb here as the breed is being sold to anyone who is willing to pay upto €1000 a pup. They have been sold since 2011 and in the past 6 weeks there have been 4 6 month old pups up for rehoming on dondeal which I think is ALARMING!!!

google Caucasian Shepard donedeal and you can see all of the ads for rehoming the pups and yet another litter on sale in wexford!

http://www.pedigreedogs.ie/tag/irresponsible-dog-breeders/

I got my mine from a women that had no idea of what she had purchased apart from what the ad had said that it would be a great guard dog and was told it would be fine with her own dog and good with kids. This was not the case and her own dog was savaged after a while and aggression was shown to other visitors and the owner etc. I was given the dog and after months of training the dog is great but needs a constant awareness for its defensive protective instinct and of course its dominance. These are natural tendencies for this breed and it will be very dominant if allowed and will challenge to be top dog unless well trained and properly managed.

please see this for a better understanding of the breed www.caucasianovcharka.ru

Would like to hear from other CS owners

Thanks

billy2012

amazing looking dog!!!

**Vai**

There really are quite a few on....DD? Is that ok to say?

Have a terrible feeling these will replace the bull breeds, rotties and GSDs as the scumbags choice of dog quite soon.

Caucasian Ovcharka

**Vai** wrote: »

There really are quite a few on....DD? Is that ok to say?

Have a terrible feeling these will replace the bull breeds, rotties and GSDs as the scumbags choice of dog quite soon.

Unfortunately as an owner this is what really worries me and there is one breeder selling to anyone who has the cash and this is even more shocking when you see the amount of 6 month old pups being resold on donedeal.:mad:

It would be great if CS owners in Ireland could come together on this...

Rommie

Met a guy recently who bought a five month old one. He had no idea what Ovcharka was when I said it, clearly a guy who had done his research. Kind of worried that the dog fighters will start getting their hands on them, that breeder seems to be constantly advertising puppies and doesn't seem to care who buys them

anniehoo

**Vai** wrote: »

There really are quite a few on....DD? Is that ok to say?.

Yes but just remember there's no linking to this site as per the forum charter thanks.

boomerang

Have had the honour of meeting one in our vet practice. 80kgs + and a total pussy cat who lives in a family of dogs.

Be careful of over-emphasising their dominance/tendency to aggression because you don't want to be giving people ideas.

Caucasian Ovcharka

I appreciate your point but this is exactly what I want to emphasize to people who are asking for information on the breed. I'm genuinely concerned that someone will get hurt, bad press for the breed and that the dogs will come to harm.

I offer advice and my opinion which is one of conern from my perspective as an experienced large breed dog owner, experienced owner of this breed, and I as someone that has spent a great deal of time researching the breed.

I feel that the breed is in danger in this country and the more pups carelessly sold into the Irish market is the cause of problem for two reasons:

1. An untrained and unmanaged dog will attack or do harm in an unfamaliar or uncomfortable situation and its the dog who then suffers for the owners inability to manage it.

2. The wrong type of owner in what ever guise will do this breed harm or injustice

I don't believe I'm over reacting but I'm always open to advice and it was certainly comforting to see the other posts airing similar concerns to me.

Rommie

I don't think you're overreacting at all, look at the trouble with huskies over the last few years because they ended up in the wrong hands. An 80kg+ dog in the hands of these people is a serious accident waiting to happen

Magenta

Caucasian Ovcharka wrote: »

I love the breed but as others have pointed out there is an element of a ticking time bomb here as the breed is being sold to anyone who is willing to pay upto €1000 a pup. They have been sold since 2011 and in the past 6 weeks there have been 4 6 month old pups up for rehoming on dondeal which I think is ALARMING!!!

I noticed this too and was worried... even the husky have-a-go's only seem to give up on the dog at around the 1 year mark... 6 months is worrying.

FoxyVixen

I agree with you Caucasian Ovcharka. It's worrying to see how many are coming about and quite frankly, not being rude to you as an owner, but Ireland is seriously no place for this breed!!!

All you have to look at is how careless people are allowing large breeds to roam in estates, never mind an animal with a serious stubborn streak, high prey drive and one with I think is fair to say, a tenacious temperament. I for one believe that the Akita shouldn't be as prevalent in Ireland as it is, many people are incapable of handling such an independantly thinking animal.

A Caucasian Ovcharka in the wrong hands is only going to create alot of untrained animals leading people to believe that they should all be hung, drawn and quartered.

Oh hai

They are amazing dogs but this new trend is very worrying That breeder obviously has no morals whatsoever. What a shame if this beautiful breed will be turned in to a monster if scumbags start picking up on this.

Dr Turk Turkelton

I saw one of the Ovcherkas about three years ago while out walking my dog.It was tied to one of those New Age Travellers hippy vans in a car park.
When i first saw it I thought it was a small bear that had been rescued by the hippies until it started barking at me!
I have to admit i was glad it was secured with a chain as thick as my arm!
I went home and spent a good half hour googling it before i found out what it was it was so obscure at the time.

boomerang

Oh hai wrote: »

They are amazing dogs but this new trend is very worrying That breeder obviously has no morals whatsoever. What a shame if this beautiful breed will be turned in to a monster if scumbags start picking up on this.

That's all I'm worried about. All due respect to those who know the breed!

Caucasian Ovcharka

I agree 100% I have written a few replies and just deleted them the less attention the better. Its a catch 22 I guess as I want to inform potential buyers and of course I do not want to draw attention to the breed for the wrong reasons. Its difficult to just focus on the issue of the failings of the breeder who introduced them and continues selling them.

I try to sympathize with his position, maybe the recession hit him and this was an opportunity to make money. Also given that there is no law that he should vet potential buyers, or a law to demand he fully inform buyers of the needs and temperament of the breed.

All that said I think its simply wrong so wrong what has happened to this breed in very short time in Ireland given what seems to be the case from the ads on donedeal in the past month!

I have to admit it was only with the increase in donedeal ads selling and trying to rehome 6 month old pups (4 in the past month) that I have been moved to vent my concerns???

LucyBliss

Caucasian Ovcharka, well I'd like to thank you on my own behalf for coming on and informing us. My dogs aren't any of the restricted breeds but as a committed dog owner who hates when people make crap statements and bleat about how pit bulls or GSD are going to kill us all, I am always glad to have information at hand so I can set them straight, so I'm happy to know about this breed too.

And as a dog person, I like hearing about the different breeds that exist. And as much as I think they're fantastic dogs, I know that getting a Caucasian Shepard would be ridiculous for my lifestyle. All the poor creature would be hunting down are my keys and my phone!

boomerang

The one that I met looks to be pretty sedentary. I'd imagine as a big herd-guarding breed, they don't have a huge exercise requirement? Say, along the lines of the Pyrenean Mountain Dog, Tibetan Mastiff, St. Bernard, Bernese Mountain Dog, etc?

I'm sure their response when faced with a threat is not as placid, though?

Caucasian Ovcharka

As they are a working breed the general consensus would be that they require a lot of exercise. My own experience would be that if for what ever reason I miss a long walk out in open fields it will stress the dog and a change in temperament is definitely noticed even after one day of missing the long walk and even if you have a couple of short walks instead they never have the same effect. I have never noticed this as clear in any other dog. Its simply not like any dog I have known, very sensitive to its surroundings and so intelligent it does on occasion freak me out.

Queen-Mise

Caucasian Ovcharka wrote: »

As they are a working breed the general consensus would be that they require a lot of exercise. My own experience would be that if for what ever reason I miss a long walk out in open fields it will stress the dog and a change in temperament is definitely noticed even after one day of missing the long walk and even if you have a couple of short walks instead they never have the same effect. I have never noticed this as clear in any other dog. Its simply not like any dog I have known, very sensitive to its surroundings and so intelligent it does on occasion freak me out.

They sound like an incredible dog.

I find it amazing, & somewhat unbelievable that a dog can be trained/reared/bred to have those characteristics. And then at the same time I believe you completely.
All I have to do is to think of guide dogs, and then imagine that training/selective breeding going back several hundred years.

It is a scary to think of this dog in the hands of an inexperienced dog owner.

Caucasian Ovcharka

Shocking story in UK today headlines are young girl killed by 4 dogs

I don't know if it even right to mention it out of some sort of respect.

words just don't reach the feelings on this one

it all seems wrong, the size of the garden, the types of breeds together, the girl visiting left alone with them etc

2 Staffordshire bull terriers (which can be a great dog for a good owner)

2 bull mastiffs which I have no experience of

The pack mentality is something truly bizarre I have seen the nicest little fluffy pet can turn into a wild animal when the pack mentality steps in.

This is just so sad

Caucasian Ovcharka

Another litter now on sale in wexford on dd I think he is selling 4 litters per year with 2 bitches?



is this puppy farming?


anyone?

DBB

Caucasian Ovcharka wrote: »

Another litter now on sale in wexford on dd I think he is selling 4 litters per year with 2 bitches?



is this puppy farming?


anyone?

It depends on your definition of puppy farming. Legally, to be considered a breeder under Irish legislation, you must own 6 or more bitches of breeding potential. Obviously, this would apply to the big puppy farms.
However, in Ireland at any rate, there are hundreds of "back yard breeders" (BYBs) who breed on a smaller scale, but still have no respect for animal welfare: I suppose you could call them mini puppy farms. But because most of these people have less than 6 bitches, they do not fall under the legislation, and are therefore not subject to the supposed welfare stipulations and licence requirements that the law provides for.
Yet these people, with, say, 5 bitches, can still produce 10 litters a year. At a conservative estimate, let's assume 4 pups per litter, though remembering that some breeds routinely produce many more, some less. That's 40 pups a year, at a conservative estimate. Not bad as a little sideline, is it?
Without doubt, BYBs are far more numerous in Ireland than the 6+ bitch puppy farms are, and it is exactly these sort of people that dd, and to a lesser extent other websites, cater for, enable, and facilitate. And the worst thing is, unless he is breaching animal welfare laws, there's nothing illegal about it... Though there is the potential option of turning Revenue's attention to the proceeds from those 40 pups, Al Capone style!

Caucasian Ovcharka

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2300229/If-need-sign-saying-beware-dog-pet-dangerous-share-home-child.html

Melion

Where did the bulldog come from in this story? Yesterday it was 2 mastiffs and 2 staffies that were shot.

loveisdivine

I see from that article that the owner was a BYB. Perhaps some good can come from the incident and it will encourage people not to buy from BYB's.

billy2012

byp?

Nody

billy2012 wrote: »

byp?

Back Yard Breeder; small scale puppy farm.

Caucasian Ovcharka

updated link

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2300229/If-need-sign-saying-beware-dog-pet-dangerous-share-home-child.html

I would recommend that every dog owner should read this article as what it communicates is exactly what every dog owner should understand and carry with them especially if its a medium to large breed, working breed and where there is more than 2 dogs in a family.

I thought it was an amazing summation even if its on the dailymail!

The Sweeper

Except his description of illegal pitbull types drips red top hysteria all over the place...

ISDW

Can't read the article, just get an error message

Caucasian Ovcharka

Just changed the link with the updated article, in relation to it I think the overall point is what is profound. I spoke to a few defence dog trainers in my time and its pretty much the same point and needs to be reread a couple of times to be appreciated.

ISDW

I've already read that article. sorry, I'm not being deliberately obtuse, but what exactly in it should dog owners carry with them? I honestly can't see anything informative or helpful in it.

The line "As so often happens when an untrained person tries to intervene in a dog fight, the animals turned on him." is one that I find very surprising. Obviously people can easily get bitten when trying to break up a dog fight, but that is usually because they put a piece of their body in the way of the teeth of the fighting dogs, not because the dogs turn on them. Is there any evidence to back this 'as so often' bit up?

Knine

ISDW wrote: »

I've already read that article. sorry, I'm not being deliberately obtuse, but what exactly in it should dog owners carry with them? I honestly can't see anything informative or helpful in it.

The line "As so often happens when an untrained person tries to intervene in a dog fight, the animals turned on him." is one that I find very surprising. Obviously people can easily get bitten when trying to break up a dog fight, but that is usually because they put a piece of their body in the way of the teeth of the fighting dogs, not because the dogs turn on them. Is there any evidence to back this 'as so often' bit up?

Agree, I've broke up many fights and on one occasion involving a Pit Bull Terrier who was in the process of seriously injuring a Rottweiler. Never has a dog turned on me. Of course like ISDW mentions, you could easily get in the way and be bitten accidently.

I've read several of these similar articles this week, some say the dogs are never at fault and then go on to vilify certain breeds or make inaccurate statments.

Caucasian Ovcharka

In fairness to the author I think he experienced the extreme side of dogs and perhaps how undesirables make foolish owners of aggressive dogs whether the aggression is type (a) typically toward another dog such as in the staff's or type (b) toward humans as with Dobermans etc.

The point I think is simple and mostly unappreciated by many dog owners. My reading in its simplicity is that when a dog is triggered and that very trait of aggression kicks in and which has very often been reinforced by breeding. Then the dog is no longer the pet you know and love. It's another animal.

People say my little darling would never hurt a fly yet when in a pack it will gladly chase down and take part in the kill of sheep, (all chase horses and cattle) mesmerised by the pack.

When in pack mentality
When in aggression mode

the base instinct of the breed takes over and this aggression is what dominates all psychological experience of the dog.

The dog typically fails to respond to commands, calls and pleas from the owner and the owner can't understand why?


This is what the article communicates your domestic lovely dog still has a vicious animal inside that can come out a lot easier than we think and can cause great harm and even loss of life.

forgive any errors and the length of my reply!

Magenta

Caucasian Ovcharka wrote: »

Hi,

I have always been a fan of boards.ie but never had the drive to join until I saw this post hence I joined. So please go easy on me.

I have a Caucasian Shepard and I had a essay written in reply to this post but I when I spell checked it disappeared probably for the best as I went off on one in a critical way about the breeder in Ireland who has pumped between more than 30 pups into the Irish market with his 2 bitches.

I love the breed but as others have pointed out there is an element of a ticking time bomb here as the breed is being sold to anyone who is willing to pay upto €1000 a pup. They have been sold since 2011 and in the past 6 weeks there have been 4 6 month old pups up for rehoming on dondeal which I think is ALARMING!!!

Was just browsing an ads site and remembered this thread. There is an 8 month old for sale now. They are a very rare breed so it is very noticeable and alarming how many of them are being rehomed before they're even a year old.

Caucasian Ovcharka

Hi Magenta,

just had a look at the ad and thanks for highlighting this again,

Its a fact that these dogs have been pumped in to Ireland by 1 breeder and over 10 x 6-12 month dogs have been seeking to be rehomed/sold on for whatever reasons have been advertised just on that site and this I would guess is from the approx 40+ pups produced by him.

Since this discussion on the boards there has been a definite reduction in the irish breeders ads on the same ad site.

This has to be good news!!

People power?

As for the current Ad its been up a few times for past 2-3 months but the poor dog look so sad! I know that looks cannot truly reflect this but the dog does look sad in most pictures. Gorgeous dog and I would love to have her myself but who can now afford 1400 at the moment?

fatmammycat

They're beautiful dogs, but I dread the thought of them in the wrong hands.

Magenta

Caucasian Ovcharka wrote: »

Hi Magenta,

just had a look at the ad and thanks for highlighting this again,

Its a fact that these dogs have been pumped in to Ireland by 1 breeder and over 10 x 6-12 month dogs have been seeking to be rehomed/sold on for whatever reasons have been advertised just on that site and this I would guess is from the approx 40+ pups produced by him.

If you ask me, if he's produced 40ish puppies, and 10 of them are being rehomed a few months later, then it sounds like he's shopping these puppies out to whoever has the cash, and not making sure they're going to knowledgable homes.