Really in need of advice

Shazanne

Please understand that I am pretty emotional writing this.
My male dog, Max, snapped and bit my husband on the face a couple of hours ago. He has snapped at him on two occasions before and regularly growls at him if he thinks my husband is coming to sit near me or move him from where he is lying.
Last night Max slept with us as my other dog, Millie, is in the vets with an upset tummy. Both Millie and Max have slept with us before (all over Christmas and on holidays etc) but usually sleep together in the utility room.
Max snuggled in to me all night. This morning, when the alarm went off and all three of us were awake, my husband went to rub him but Max sprang up growling and bit him on the forehead. He has three puncture marks and bled afterwards. He didn't have his glasses on and, I suppose, it could just as easily been his eyes or nose.
On previous occasions he has snapped when my husband tried to get him out of his carrier where he sleeps and also when he just went to pet him when he was lying on the couch. If Max is lying on or beside me he will growl at my husband or Millie if they try to come near us.
Max has also growled at people who come into the house, such as my mother who was here on Christmas Day and anyone else who calls. And he growls aggressively at other dogs, attempting to attack them on a few occasions. I always have him on a lead.
I have had Max for 17 months. He is a beagle cross and I find him very affectionate. I got him from a rescue centre, who had in turn rescued him from the dog pound. In truth, that's all I know about his past.
I am in complete shock at the moment. All I have done is cry since this happened this morning and I honestly don't know what to do now. My husband is lucky that he is only slightly injured - it could be so much worse. But how can I trust Max again after this? How can my husband trust him? My husband is wonderful with both dogs. Max regularly sits up on his knee and it is my husband who walks him as he is too strong for me. There is no suggestion of ill-treatment of any kind on the part of my husband. I think it more a case of jealousy on Max's part.
I just don't know what to do. Growling is one thing but snapping and biting is scary. I didn't think Max was capable of that but it seems that he is and he was very agressive when doing it.
I am totally distraught and just don't know what to do as I can't really think clearly at this stage.
I would value any advice.

Interceptor

Your dog is jealous alright and letting him sleep in your bed gave him the message that he was equal in the pack to your husband so permitted him to attack and defend his position.

You can try to amend this by keeping the dog in the utility room from now on and not in the house or up on furniture and reinforcing his position as bottom of the pack with less 'affectionate' handling. I'm not proposing any level of cruelty, just don't treat the dog as anything other than a dog who needs to learn where he is on the pecking order. If this isn't going to work then you have to consider rehoming him somewhere his opinions won't result in him biting someone.

I hope your husband is ok - a bite to the head is serious and may need medical attention if it is bad enough.

'cptr

cocker5

Firstly, what age is max?

i know you mentioned you have had him for 17 months, but do you know his actual age?

Secondly, you need to remove him from sleeping in your bed. put him back down in the utility room.

can i ask what you do when he growls? do you give out to him? what did you do when he bit your husband?

Reason i ask is it appears he is protecting you, albeit not acceptable in any way that is what he is doing.

Have you consultated a dog trainer?

Jelly2

Shazanne, have you considered getting the help of a dog trainer or dog psychologist? It might really help. I think this might be a problem for which you need professional aid now, as it has gotten quite serious at this stage because the behaviour wasn't nipped in the bud. I would be inclined not to condemn your dog at this stage, but to actively seek to solve the problem.:)

tk123

1 - vet for a check up to rule any medical issues out
2 - contact a behaviourist who will asses him and give you an plan of what to do - http://apdt.ie/

It sounds like he's resource guarding you.

Also he may have been handled roughly/hurt by somebody in the past - this happened with my dog. He was handled roughly and alpha rolled by an idiot who was visiting once who decided a 3 month old puppy was trying to be dominant over him :mad::mad::mad: ...then he was in a lot of pain at the vets at one stage and the muppet vet held him down shouting at him - so now we have a dog who's wary of men and vets he doesn't know thanks to these fools!:(

Vince32

Well that's not as bad as it seems, if you break down what happened from the dogs perspective it actually makes sense.

1. Sleeping dreamily
2. Suddenly startled by a major alarm / noise
3. A Giant hand comes in close to you
4. Holy %£"$ I don't like that
5. Bite: get away

TBH this is no ones fault, but allowing the dog to sleep on the same level as you (height wise) Alpha on top - means the dog is now an equal to both you and your husband, it should be the submissive sleeping on lower ground.

Most people will allow their dogs to sleep with them if there is a case of separation anxiety, and the dog barks, brays or cries in the absence of its master. What most people don't realise is allowing the dog to sleep on the bed creates a power-shift.

Here is what I would do, buy or make a dog bed and leave it at the foot of your bed, or outside the door (recommended for cuddling ) and make sure the dog knows this is it's place in the family, lower than the two of you.

Then http://www.dog-obedience-training-review.com/how-to-stop-a-puppy-from-biting.html about half way down this page is how to teach a dog it's allowed bite force, dog's will always bite that is just life, but you can teach the dog what level of aggression is acceptable by "YELPING" loudly when it bites and moving away, this is how they learn to play with their litter mates and is sort of a universal dog language they will all understand, and lessen their bite each time you yelp and move off.

Only reward the results you want to see, and ignore the ones you don't (look up and away as if it's going to rain)

With the Guest in your house, ask them to throw a treat or two (his favourite), and he will quickly associate "new people" as a "positive" experience, or to post a few treats in the mail slot on your door before coming in.

It's all about associations, change the dogs mind with treats and love, and reward it for being a good boy.

It also might be a good idea to have your husband bond with the dog, do some training or go walking either with you or alone with the dog.

For alot of couples / family's, time isn't an abundant resource, schedules can be hectic, and the last thing you want to do in your down time is to train the family pet. ( or re-train) but if this is a major concern then you will need to put the time in to correct it, or it will get worse.

Shazanne

cocker5 wrote: »

Firstly, what age is max?

i know you mentioned you have had him for 17 months, but do you know his actual age?

Secondly, you need to remove him from sleeping in your bed. put him back down in the utility room.

can i ask what you do when he growls? do you give out to him? what did you do when he bit your husband?

Reason i ask is it appears he is protecting you, albeit not acceptable in any way that is what he is doing.

Have you consultated a dog trainer?

My vet reckons Max is about 3 years old.

As regards what I do when he growls I am going to be 100% honest and say that I have not addressed this properly. If he is on my knee and growls at my husband or at Millie (my other dog) I just usually tell him to stop and maybe give his collar a little tug. But I haven't put him down off my knee or put him out for it - I realise now that I should have.
When he bit my husband this morning it was 6.15a.m. and I was not properly awake. I got a terrible shock and concentrated immediately on seeing if my husband was ok. I did nothing with Max. And, when my husband was gone to work a while and I had posted up here I went back to bed and took Max with me as Millie is not here. That would never happen if she was. I realise now I have made a terrible mistake in doing that as well.

I don't think Max is trying to protect me as such, as he has nothing to protect me from, but I think he may be trying to "own" me. Having said that, obviously none of the visitors to my house were sitting close to me, yet he growled at them. He also barks furiously at anyone who passes the house. This happens whether I am in the house or not, which is also the case with visitors. Maybe he just has a naturally possessive nature. Since we got him Millie has become considerably more submissive than she was beforehand and, while I was inclined to think that she was sitting back and letting him take over the protection of their territory, I am now wondering if she is perhaps a bit afraid of him?

I have arranged to speak with my vet later this afternoon when I go to pick up Millie. My husband is coming with me as I feel he needs to hear all that is being said as well. As you can imagine, he is totally confused and hurt by all this and can't understand why Max is behaving this way towards him. He says that if it happens again that Max will have to go as he could not trust him with anyone coming to the house, with Millie, or indeed with himself. But he is fully prepared to work on the situation before making such a decision.
I am investigating behaviourists at the moment but the only way I can do this is online, unless my vet can recommend someone to me. Naturally I fear the fact that this will be a very expensive route and I am concerned about this but it has to be done.

Thanks to all who took the time to read what I posted and to reply with such helpful advice. I really, really appreciate it.

Jelly2

What you just described reminds me hugely of an episode about an aggressive dog that Victoria Stilwell dealt with in the series 'It's Me or the Dog.' The dog was a small dog but incredibly protective of a female owner and aggressive towards everyone else (especially her husband) (and this included guarding the home territory when the owner was out). Her training for this is very effective, based on positive reinforcement and rejection of inappropriate behaviour (eg reward for getting off the couch when asked, or turning away from the dog when he barked). Tugging on the collar was not something she did! If you can check out her techniques, which are simple enough but need to be applied consistently, you will hopefully find them useful.

toadfly

Ah Shazanne I hate hearing this. Poor Max. I agree it sounds to be like he is guarding you, you are his procession. Are there any recommended behavourists in your area. You are in Laois ya? Someone here is bound to know.

In the meantime all you can do is reward the good and ignore the bad until you get professional advice. Keep him off the couch and out of bedrooms etc.

Victoria Stilwell is brilliant, really like her.

cocker5

OP,

The fact that you know something has to be done is a start... with training and consistency I’m sure this issued can be addressed successfully...

When Max growls at ANYONE... your hubby or ur other dog you need to act immediately, i think you know by not really acting in the past this has caused his behaviour to get worse.... in his mind his behaviour is acceptable as there has been no negative reaction to his behaviour. As soon as he growls i would put him outside, and leave him outside for 15 mins regardless of its training etc....also i would say a FIRM no.... after a few times of doing this he will learn his bad behaviour results in a negative reaction and he will stop..

Also you need to treat him like a dog.... don’t allow his to sit on your knee... or sleep in your bed.... yes cuddle him and be affectionate, but not overly so, you are sending mixed signals... i know you think he isn’t protecting you as you mentioned there’s nothing to protect you from, but your dog doesn’t think like that... he thinks you two are a pack.....

Here is a good articles of dogs aggression

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/aggression/types.shtml

http://www.thedogtrainingsecret.com/DogAggression/

subway

best of luck with Max, there is some really good advice in the posts after mine

Cherry Blossom

Shazanne - Max is not trying to take over the world or assert dominance over anyone. He is a spoilt brat who has no proper boundaries, its as simple as that. You and your husband ultimately will determine how this progresses. You both need to assert some dicipline (in yourselves, not the dogs). Set proper boundries for them, do not ignore bad behaviour - correct it. Decide on living room rules, couch rules, sitting on lap rules and remove the dog if rules for each scenario are broken straight away. Don't give them anything for free, if you want to pet the dogs teach them a few simple commands and ask them to do something to earn their rewards. A trainer cant help you unless you change your mindset. Most importantly the same applies to Millie, if she is awarded liberties Max isn't he will start to resent her for it - all new rules apply equally to both dogs.

DBB

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Shazanne - Max is not trying to take over the world or assert dominance over anyone. He is a spoilt brat who has no proper boundaries, its as simple as that. You and your husband ultimately will determine how this progresses. You both need to assert some dicipline (in yourselves, not the dogs). Set proper boundries for them, do not ignore bad behaviour - correct it. Decide on living room rules, couch rules, sitting on lap rules and remove the dog if rules for each scenario are broken straight away. Don't give them anything for free, if you want to pet the dogs teach them a few simple commands and ask them to do something to earn their rewards. A trainer cant help you unless you change your mindset. Most importantly the same applies to Millie, if she is awarded liberties Max isn't he will start to resent her for it - all new rules apply equally to both dogs.

At last, someone has given you some good advice here!
There is a lot of "pack leader" stuff being thrown at you, which is extremely misleading and just wrong. The dog is resource guarding, not "asserting his dominance", it's important to know the distinction because one approach will work for both you and the dog, and the other won't.
One thing I will say, a behaviourist (and you do need a behaviourist on this one, as opposed to a trainer) can help you change your mindset from the point of view that they will help you to understand the mistakes you're making, and understand where the dog is coming from.
Do you live in Laois? If so, you have a fantastic girl in your area who should be able to help you. I will PM you her details if you wish. Behavioural sessions don't have to break the bank: some are more expensive than others, and some are horrendously expensive, but that doesn't necessarily reflect the quality of service you get.

Dealing with a dog who is snapping and growling in certain situations does need a good understanding of what's most likely going on in the dog's head, and armed with that knowledge, coming up with an effective way of both managing the behaviour, and implementing a way of changing his behaviour, using knowldge of how dogs learn, and using non-punitive, "hands-off" techniques.
You can still hug your dog. You can still have your dog on your lap. You just need to implement some boundaries, which a behaviourist will help you with.

Vince32 posted:
Then http://www.dog-obedience-training-re...om-biting.html about half way down this page is how to teach a dog it's allowed bite force, dog's will always bite that is just life, but you can teach the dog what level of aggression is acceptable by "YELPING" loudly when it bites and moving away, this is how they learn to play with their litter mates and is sort of a universal dog language they will all understand, and lessen their bite each time you yelp and move off.

But that's not the only advice on that link, is it?
This website made me wince: the advice given half-way down the page, the video-link for "Sirius Puppy Training" is none other than Dr. Ian Dunbar, world renowned dog behaviourist. I think he'd be pretty peeved to know his videos and advice have been snipped and put right in the middle of a diatribe about "asserting your dominance" over your snappy pup :rolleyes:
Even worse, below Ian's video, this fella has posted up instructions that if a pup keeps biting, you basically pinch his lower jaw: if that doesn't work, use a foul-tasting liquid on gloves; and if that doesn't work, USE A PINCH OR CHOKE COLLAR, on a PUPPY, and give it a tug when the puppy bites!
:eek::eek::eek:
He then says other methods have been recommended to him which he hasn't tried himself: shaking a rattle can, or squirting the pup with water... I'm sorry? If he hasn't tried them, why the HELL is he posting them as possible "cures" for biting?
Oh yes. And "please be consistent", he says. So, if the pinch collar doesn't work the first time, keep using it? :eek:
I'm not going to read any more of the nonsense on the linked site, I've seen enough from just the one page.
This website's advice should not be followed. I see he has himself billed as a "Master" dog trainer. There is no such recognised qualification, it is bandied around by trainers who tend to use unpleasant training methods. It is not a recognised term/"qualification" used by appropriately qualified trainers or behaviourists.
And it's all made to look like it's Ian's own advice. I think I'll email him the link to this site, because I'm fairly sure he'd have a mickey fit if he saw it.

Jeez, when will the message get through? If dogs' true motivation to "misbehave" was based on them trying to be dominant, we simply could not live with them, we could not have an animal like that in our homes. We couldn't have them playing with kids or mixing with other people or dogs. Animals who perpetually try to dominate people would be a nightmare to live with.
Wolves don't try to dominate each other, so why would dogs? How would this behaviour suddenly appear in an animal that has been deliberately bred and developed to be passive around humans, from an animal that doesn't exhibit the behaviour in the first place?
Can someone please tell me? I haven't yet heard a good explanation! While you're at it, perhaps you could explain why the world is flat!

In the meantime, for anyone who'd like to get an understanding of why our dogs do what they do, and why it is often misinterpreted as being "dominant" behaviour, or the dog "not knowing his place in the pack", have a read of this website, which was designed and developed by properly qualified trainers and behaviourists to get the message out there about the truth behind dominance:
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/

Shazanne

Please forgive me if this post is a bit jumbled but I am very distressed writing it.
I have just returned from the vet and, before anyone jumps at me, this is a vet I have used for many years and trust completely. I was there to collect Millie and told him about Max. My husband was with me having just had a tetanus shot from the doctor for the bite on his face.
The vet was very straight with me, even though I cried most of the time I was there. He says that Max has crossed a serious line, not just by biting my husband, but by going for his face. While I emphasised and he understood the circumstances, he was adamant that it is unsafe to have Max at home. I spoke about a behaviourist to him but he said that, in biting the face in such an agressive manner, there was not a behaviourist he could or would recommend in such circumstances. He said that his behaviour is going to be extremely difficult if not impossible to change in his present environment.
I could go on and on here as I was with him for over an hour. But the bottom line is the same. He suggested that I leave Max at the hospital for the night as I was very distressed and not capable of thinking clearly.

I am not the sort of person who can handle a situation like this as I cannot detach myself and think rationally. All I do know at the moment is that I blame myself totally for all this and I fear I am going to be slated on here too. Through my own ignorance and lack of knowledge, and because I treat my dogs like children, this situation has come about and I know that it's not Max's fault but totally mine.

What Max needs, in my opinion, is a new home where he could be part of a pack and know his place in the pecking order. He needs to be with other dogs that will help to balance him and not in the situation he is in here where all these bad habits have been allowed to develop by me.
He is not a bad dog and I love him dearly. That's probably some of the problem - I love him too much and that's why all this has happened.
My husband loves him too. At least he did until this morning, but, while I haven't asked him if he still loves Max, he has told me that he does not trust him anymore.
But he is in agreement with me trying to rehome him as he knows what it will do to me if Max is put to sleep. I know that taking him to a rescue centre is not an option as, with his history now, he will never be rehomed. He needs someone like the people on here, who know and understand and truly love dogs.
Please is there anyone out there that can help me? I will travel anywhere at anytime to help Max. Please don't be to hard on me in your replies - I honestly can't take it at this time. Please don't tell me how wrong you think I am. Believe me, you can't say anything that will make me feel any worse than I do at the moment. I am broken hearted and I need someone to help me here.

tk123

OP you're not thinking straight here. Do you have any friends/family who can take him for a few days or even leave him into kennels so you can decide what you want to do?
The way I see it you can either work on correcting the problems he has from lack of training and boundaries by you or give him back to the rescue to rehome? You say he needs a pack - he already has one at home with his family? You've had warning signs here all along that you either didn't recognise or address - it's not too late to get help if you're willing to put in the time and effort.
Nobody is expecting you to know everything there is about dogs - but there are people out there who can help you. I knew nothing about dogs until I got my guy 2 and half years ago - I took everything the trainers said on board and put in time and effort and the difference in him is amazing.

DBB

Shazanne wrote: »

The vet was very straight with me, even though I cried most of the time I was there. He says that Max has crossed a serious line, not just by biting my husband, but by going for his face. While I emphasised and he understood the circumstances, he was adamant that it is unsafe to have Max at home. I spoke about a behaviourist to him but he said that, in biting the face in such an agressive manner, there was not a behaviourist he could or would recommend in such circumstances. He said that his behaviour is going to be extremely difficult if not impossible to change in his present environment.

Shazanne, please take a bit of time to think about this.
Your vet is not a behaviourist, and therefore cannot know what a behaviourist will take on or not. Please talk to a behaviourist, not your vet, before judging the whys and wherefores of what Max did. Let the behaviourist decide whether this is a workable problem.
There are times that a bite to the face is a crossed line. BUT, in this situation it sounds to me like your OH got bitten on the forehead because that was the only part of him available to Max to bite? I have dealt with dogs that have jumped off the ground to specifically bite the face, but that is very different to a bite on the face as a result of having said face too close to the dog! The latter is much easier to deal with. Please remember this.
Max has abit of a grumbly history. He does not like to be disturbed. Your OH disturbed him from a particularly comfortable spot. I'm assuming his face was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and it was all too much for Max to deal with politely.
There needs to be an assessment of him so that it can be figure dout why he's growly, and deal with that.

All I do know at the moment is that I blame myself totally for all this and I fear I am going to be slated on here too. Through my own ignorance and lack of knowledge, and because I treat my dogs like children, this situation has come about and I know that it's not Max's fault but totally mine.

Don't blame yourself: it's okay to treat dogs well. They just need boundaries... just like kids do. Again, a behaviourist will help you identify and establish these boundaries.

What Max needs, in my opinion, is a new home where he could be part of a pack and know his place in the pecking order.

I don't know if you've had the time/inclination to read my above post: this is nothing to do with pecking order. It is to do with Max getting pissy about being disturbed when he's reasting.
This is one of the reasons I don't like poeple being told they have to be "pack leader" or "dominate" their dog: many owners feel deeply uncomfortable at the thought of such a concept, because it's hard for them to get their head around why their dog, who they treat so well, would be trying to dominate them. The tragedy is that this is not what the dog is doing or why the dog is doing it.
The proper way of dealing with it is systematic and quite straightforward, and even the most maternal of owners find it nice because it does not affect your relationship with your dog, and does not entail you having to suddenly become mean to your dog.

He needs to be with other dogs that will help to balance him and not in the situation he is in here where all these bad habits have been allowed to develop by me.

He'd probably be better off staying where he is, as long as you get help to restructure how you're doing things.
As you say yourself, he'd be very difficult to rehome now. Take a few days to get some perspective, and think about getting someone in to help you get things back on track. As I said above, if you live in Laois (someone suggested you do?!), there is a super behaviourist there who could help you.

I truly hope nobody criticises you or makes you feel any worse than you do. I know how utterly upsetting it is to be bitten by your own dog, but I'd urge you not to panic or do anything rash, until you've explored all avenues for keeping Max with you.

TooManyDogs

Ahh you poor thing. Firstly I'd say that DBB and AJ have given you good advice and regardless of whether you have decided to rehome Max that retraining should start the minute you bring Max home because it will only help him in the future.

I'd never go against a vets advise but in this case I'm not sure it's as clear cut as the vet is making out. In normal circumstances it's a serious line to cross for a dog to go for a person's face but you have to remember in the situation of you all being in bed your hubbys face would have been on the same level as Max so it's not the same as a dog who ignores arms/legs intent on jumping up to attack the face, it could very easily have been the first thing Max saw. It's why children are so often bitten on the face, because they're often on the floor with the dog or simply at same level, not cos dogs hate children more than adults.

The way things are with trying to rehome dogs in the country at the moment Max will need every bit of help he can get, there are smply too many dogs without behavioural problems looking for homes that dogs with aggression issues often fall down the list. DBB has offered to PM you a behaviourist's number, I'd go for it, you need to start getting Max into a better position to rehome him, in any household he will need to fit in without being aggressive and it's a massive plus for you to be able to say to a perspective owner "well he has had aggressive issues but we're working on it by applying X,Y and Z". People will be put off if they think they'll have to spend money on behaviourists for a dog they're not emotionally invested in yet.

You can't blame your husband for not trusting Max, but at the same time you both need to be calm and apply whatever new rules you decide on. If your husband is nervous around Max it can result in Max not trusting him, so could make it harder for Max to change his behaviour around your husband. My Mam had a great saying "behave as if", so if your hubby can behave as if everything is peachy and he does trust Max then the retraining can go more smoothly.

Best of luck, my heart goes out to you.

Bookworm85

Hi Shazanne,

I've just read this thread and I'm really sorry about what happened to your husband. I hope he's ok.

I'd agree with what a previous poster has said. The dominance/pecking order theories are pretty much hogwash. Your dog is just that, a dog. Your dog knows he's a dog and doesnt think that you or your hubby are dogs. Neither does he think he is a human. This whole 'pack' theory is very outdated and I think that with a little bit of effort on you and your hubby's behalf will make all the difference.

Your dog simply needs new boundaries and a little bit of training. One poster already offered to give you details of a local behaviourist and I hope you take them up on the offer. Or you could always contact the rescue that Max came from, I'm sure they will be more than happy to advise and help you in any way they can.

A behaviorist will be able to help you, your hubby and your dog to get past this incident, and you will see results very quickly if you follow their advice.

LucyBliss

Shazanne, back in the late 1990's, a aunt of mine arrived on my grandmother's doorstep with a stray border collie that she had found and basically dumped it on my 90 year old grandmother, who was a huge dog lover and fell in love with the dog on the spot.

They were great buddies. But because my grandmother was advanced in years (though she was very sound in mind and body), the dog's training was not exactly what it should have been, even though we did our best but any good work would be undone by my grandmother and not because of anything malicious on her part, I hasten to add.
The dog was very protective of my grandmother and did nip her in the face on two separate occasions. Okay, imagine that: a 90+ year old woman with cuts and bruises on her face from the dog. (If the dog had been a bull breed, we'd have been accused of abusing the woman). It turned out that the dog was actually protecting my grandmother and was trying to alert her to noise outside and, being a border collie, got a bit frustrated when the hard of hearing old lady wasn't waking up in time or hearing the same noises.

Looking back now, there were a complete lack of boundaries going on there mixed in with a guarding and herding behaviour. A few years later, my grandmother had to move in with us (there were attempted break-ins in her house and if it weren't for the dog who caused a commotion and scared them off, she would have been broken into and possibly attacked), and the dog came with her. Now while the dog wasn't friendly with our dog, once boundaries were established and she learnt that her behaviour had consequences (and by consequences, I don't mean anything that hurt the dog because (a) my grandmother would have tanned my backside for me, and (b) I can't cope with animals being distressed in films, much less be the one to distress them in real life), the dog settled in very nicely.

Now, we had to be careful bending down near her and she didn't care for being surprised or kids, and there were some people she'd just eyeball until they left, but we were on top of that. We kept an eye on her, put her out of the room if she got too tense.

So some dogs need a bit more work and a bit more of a careful eye than others. Their psyche works a bit differently but once you're on the ball and make sure they know you're watching when they get a bit tense, it can be sorted out.
My grandmother's dog was a great companion until she passed from heart failure at the age of thirteen. She watched TV, could recognise theme tunes for TV shows and adverts. She had her issues but they weren't all she was, if that makes sense. She had some lovely qualities and I'm not sorry we kept her.

(Just thought I'd add, we didn't know anything about behaviourists or anything at the time my grandmother got the dog. I was in college at the time and didn't know as much about dogs and their needs as I do now. If that whole situation happened today, things would be done so differently).

Zapperzy

I have no advice to give but just wanted to say I'm thinking of you, can't imagine what your feeling and thinking right now.

The Sweeper

All I'll add is that I too wouldn't put great emphasis on Max going for your husband's face. If your husband was standing upright, or sitting on the sofa with the dog on the floor, it would be extremely aggressive for the dog to go for his face because it would be bypassing his ankles and his hands - prime bite sites - to get to his head. However lying down in bed his face may well have simply been the nearest bit to the dog and subsequently the bit that got, well, bit.

Shazanne

Thank you all for your replies and for the time you have given to responding.
Firstly, I just want to say thank you for not jumping at me. I have seen it happen on here before and it breaks my heart to see someone with a genuine problem being "told off" by people.

As regards this mornings incident, my husband was not lying down in bed at the time, maybe I didn't clarify that. He had actually sat up and was just about to lean over to me when Max turned and looked at him, growled and jumped up at his face. He could have gone for either arms or his chest but he didn't. This was the part that worried my vet the most. What scared me as well is the fact that my husband has had major surgery on his eye about five years ago and, an inch or two lower, it was this eye that would have been damaged.

I have made contact with a behaviourist in Canada this evening through my daughter. It was too late to try here and I felt I had to speak to someone. This guy is known to be excellent in Calgary and was recommended highly to my daughter. It was explained to him about Max's history since we have had him. Initially he suffered bad separation anxiety and, if left in the kitchen with Millie but without us, he would wee on the ground at the place where I sit - every time. This took time to work out and I put alot of work into it. However, the behaviourist says that, in doing so, I created an over-dependence on me for Max.
He was as concerned about the fact that Max went for the face as my vet is and says that it will take a major amount of work by a very good behaviourist to not only adress the problem, but also to ensure that it does not happen again. He says that, being a rescue with a completely unknown history, there could be deep rooted psychological issues that cannot be addressed. He added that, like people, treatment for psychological issues in animals may or may not be successful.

However, I intend to contact behaviourist/s tomorrow and discuss the situation with them. I am taking the day off work to concentrate on this. I am given to believe that the most reputable of behaviourists/psychologists will seek a veterinary report on a dog before treatment but don't know if this is the case.
I am totally shattered at this stage, having been on the go since 6.15a.m. this morning when this happened and I just cannot think straight at the moment. Plus, looking at my husbands scarred face it not helping me at all. This whole day has been a total nightmare for us. I never in a million years thought I'd find myself in this position. I have had animals, mainly dogs, all my life (one of whom grew up with my children and lived to be 18 and a half years old) and have never had an issue like this before and I don't think I did anything different with those dogs that I have done with Max. Perhaps getting an adult dog from a rescue centre that does not have any history at all on the dog is not a good idea, I really don't know.

Again, thank you all for your help and advice and mostly for your understanding.

SineadMarie

I feel so bad for you Shazanne, and i can completely see where your coming from as i have a 3 year old Bichon thats recently become very aggressive..although my fella has never went for the face just bitten my hands which i can tell you is painful enough, i'm sorry to hear that though and i hope your husband is ok. I have thought about re-homing and even putting him to sleep but like you i love him too much to even consider that. I really think with a good behaviorist and some of the advice some posters have put up you can turn a corner with Max. Dont give up just yet

Shazanne

I have spent most of the day so far speaking to behaviourists about Max and I am confused and still very upset.
None of those I have spoken to can reassure me that Max will not bite again with one saying that the fact he has bitten my husband may mean he will now feel he can continue to domineer him. She said that the problem is extremely difficult to address when a dog has bitten the face/neck of a human and that behaviourists in general are reluctant to treat dogs who have done this as they cannot be sure that they are not putting people at risk.
Another behaviourist said that she would teach Max to "learn to enjoy wearing a muzzle" - this really upset me.
I have spoken at length to three behaviourist at this stage and await a response from a fourth. Others I have contacted could not even see Max for at least a month.
All have said that he fact that he is a rescue with no known history makes any form of behavioural therapy extremely difficult and less likely to succeed.
I contacted the vet to make sure that Max is ok there and he seems to be doing fine. But my vet remains convinced that allowing Max back home with us will result in further problems and he says he can't take responsibility for that. I have told him what I am trying to do as regards behavioral therapy but he seems sceptical. This vet has treated my animals for many years. He knows my total dedication to my pets. In fact, he brought me through two and a half years of treating my cat with intravenous drips and injections on a daily basis and I was the only owner he knows to have taken on such a task for such a long time. This vet knows me very well and he is not looking at this case as an ordinary one where an owner presents with an agressive dog. He knows how my animals have been cared for over many years and that I am not prepared to run away from problems. But he says that this is a problem that I cannot take on.
My head is reeling and my heart is breaking. I rescued Max from a pound and promised him a Forever Home. He was to be a life long companion to Millie, who I didn't want to have on her own. In fact, I took Millie with me to pick her companion when and it was her who picked Max. At that time, he was a quiet and unsure dog in need of alot of nourishment and care. He got both and is a very healthy dog today. But he obviously has psychological issues that I did not know about and they are, according to the experts I have spoken to, getting much worse.
Millie is here with me today (I am not at work as I am unable to go due to all this) and she is totally chilled out and relaxed. She has not looked for Max at all, which I find a bit distressing. She slept happily in her own bed all night and ate all her food (we have had food issues with her as Max is inclined to hover near her when he is finished eating and, if she takes a break, he will try to eat her food. I always intervene here and stop it instantly but Millie won't start re-eating, even when Max is taken away)

This is where I am at the moment. I am trying to sort all this out - I truly am - but dont know if I am getting ver far.

Vince32

There is nothing that can't be fixed when it comes to dogs, anyone who won't work with your dog is concerned about liability and basically covering their backside.

Start having training sessions with both you and your husband there, simple sit / stay / come, to start with. Make it as much fun as possible, and if max growls or snaps walk to your husband, both of you turn your back and ignore max for 20 seconds, or until the behaviour stops.
His punishment is "fun time stops" when he snaps or growls. then just resume as if nothing had happened. Sessions should be about 15-20 minutes long and as much fun as possible, reward him with a treat and lots of petting "good boy".

It will take anything from 1-2 days to 1-2 weeks for the message to sink in, don't put yourself in a position where he can bite either of you. (including the bed)

If your dog has a blanket, put it on the ground next to you and get him to sit or lie down on it for the evening, and the next evening, the blanket slowly becomes where he sits / lies, then start moving the blanket closer to your husband a foot at a time over a few days.

Ask your husband to be the one giving treats and his meals for the next week or so, obviously don't hand feed the treats until max and your husband have started becoming friends, and take your walks as a family all 3 of you together.
You said your husband was the one who primarily walked max because his is too strong for you, that could be interpreted as "he is taking me away from mommy"
The more you work on becoming a unit, family or pack (use what ever language you like) the less likely max is to disliking your husband.

It's never bad to be around other dogs either, just control the encounter, they will start sniffing the nose first, then move around to the genitals (where the scent is), if either of the dogs gets snarly or defensive, firm no, and walk away as if the other dog wasn't even there, tug on the leash if you have too, but remain calm and walk at a steady pace, eyes up, shoulders down.

Socialise the dog in training classes, and ask the trainer for help with "guarding", it will all come right for you if you put the time in, and always have a result for bad behaviour.

Your last resort will be re-homing the dog, but I doubt very much it will come to that.

ISDW

Can I ask where you have got the behaviourists from that you have spoken to? I'm not saying they are good or bad, but I could call myself a behavourist tomorrow, get fliers, business cards etc printed. But I would have had no training, no qualifications.

If you haven't already contacted, I'd recommend going through APDT to see if there is anyone in your area. http://apdt.ie/

Best of luck, a very difficult situation to be in. But, I also would urge caution on the vet's perspective, your vet is probably excellent in all things medical, but may not actually have had any behavioural training at all.

Shazanne

The problem with discussion forums such as this is that, unlike spoken conversation, you cannot pick up on points as they arise. Also, much like text messages, the written word and the spoken word can come accross very differently. Then, what is in danger of occuring, is that when you try to explain something, it can sound as though you are being defensive, which may be the furthest thing from your mind. That said (or written) I truly appreciate all the help I have received on here from everyone. The group in this forum are such a caring and wise crew and I don't know where I would have been on numerous occasions without them.

With regard to the post above, Max does not "dislike" my husband at all. In fact, my husband feeds him as often if not more so that I do, he gives him treats, Max sits happily on his knee for hours, they play together (often driving me mad!) and my husband and myself bathe and look after any problems they dogs have together. The reason my husband walks Max is because he is the strongest of our dogs, I walk Millie as she is somewhat easier and I have neck problems so have to be careful.
The issues between my husband and Max appear to be related to the fact that Max does not like him, Millie or anyone to be with me if he wants to be.

Also, as I have posted above, I have spent most of the day trying to find a solution to this problem that we have. I have spoken to a few behaviourists and have noticed something that I'd like to point out, although I am perfectly prepared to be proven wrong on this. Max is a rescue dog, brought from the pound with no details of his previous life available. When some therapists hear this they don't seem to want to know. In fact, when it comes to the point in the conversation where they ask what breed he is, when I say he is a rescued beagle cross with no history available, their attitude seems to change and, with one in particular, I got the impression that she was thinking "why is she (me) bothering with this dog"

Max is a dog with problems, I am trying my very best to accept that to establish if there is anything that can be done to help him and us. The fact that he has these problems is most likely not entirely his fault - but the fact that he is is not a purebred or pedigree dog most certainly isn't. If trainers/behaviourists want to only treat and help purebred dogs they should state that on their websites. And, if one in particular of the behaviourists I spoke to ever crosses my path I will take great pleasure in telling her that personally.

PS; I have jsut been asked by ISDW while I was writing the above post about where I found the behaviourists I have spoken to. My vet had already pointed out that there are many people masquerading as behaviourists with very basic qualifications so I did check them out on apdt.ie to see if they are registered there. The only one I can't account for is the Canadian one I spoke with last night, except to say he has been practicing for many years and came highly recommended to my daughter from her vet.

tazwaz

hi shazanne, i have no advice at all for you but i did want to say this must be a heartbreaking experience for you. i know from your posts on this forum over the years that you are crazy about your dogs and you'll do what you think is best for both dogs and your family.

moving_home

tazwaz wrote: »

hi shazanne, i have no advice at all for you but i did want to say this must be a heartbreaking experience for you. i know from your posts on this forum over the years that you are crazy about your dogs and you'll do what you think is best for both dogs and your family.

+1
this is an awful position to be in and i really feel for you. You seem to be doing everything you can so best of luck with your decision and please don't feel guilty whatever you decide.

LucyBliss

Shazanne, that sounds like my grandmother's dog. We had no past history, the dog was devoted to my grandmother: she'd let people in the house but would snap at them as they tried to leave and herd them towards the door if my grandmother was on her own with them.
It was a hard situation and emotionally taxing for a few years until they both moved in with my mother and we were able to work with her a bit more. And even then it wasn't perfect.

I'm sorry this is happening to you and from your previous posts around this forum, we all know you're a damn good dog owner who only wants the best for her dogs. You did a good thing in giving Max a home and he obviously cares for you a great deal because of it. Of course, it would be nicer if he showed his devotion by knowing loads of tricks and maybe fighting crime!
Do you think you'll be able to think about it for the weekend and maybe put together a plan for working with Max so he can stay with you? I don't mean that in a judgey way and I have no doubt that this is upsetting you a great deal. I hope you find a workable solution sooner rather than later.

Shazanne

Thanks LucyBliss.
Yes, I will be continuing to give this a great deal of thought over the weekend and am waiting anxiously to hear from two very reputable behaviourists that I contacted today. Their analysis will be a major factor for me. Both are quite a distance from me but, if they feel they can genuinely help me, that does not bother me in the slighest. I spoke to the assistant of one of these behaviourists today and expect a call from the lady herself in the morning. The other came strongly recommended to me in a PM here on this site, so I have e-mailed her and, from her posts in the past and her approach to dogs, I really, really like the sound of her. I am checking my messages every 15 minutes in case she mails me back!

Otherwise, my husband went to work today and, while he rang me several times to see how I was doing (ironic considering it was him who was bitten!) I asked him not to mention the situation to me at all as I needed the space to contact behaviourists and try to calm my emotions somewhat. I have been all over the place since all this happened.
I know it has to be discussed because Max is sort of becoming the "elephant in the room" at the moment but I had hoped to have some positive information before we discussed it further.
In fairness, my husband is being absolutely wonderful about all this. While I know he favours the advice of the vet, he will not pressurise me into doing anything until I find out what, if anything can be done.
I can't say anymore at the moment but I hope that one of my next posts will be that I have found someone who believes they can help us. If not, and I continue to get the response that Max had crossed the line of no return by biting my husbands face and will probably do so again, then I will have a great deal of soul searching to do.

DBB

Shazanne wrote: »

I have spent most of the day so far speaking to behaviourists about Max and I am confused and still very upset.
None of those I have spoken to can reassure me that Max will not bite again with one saying that the fact he has bitten my husband may mean he will now feel he can continue to domineer him. She said that the problem is extremely difficult to address when a dog has bitten the face/neck of a human and that behaviourists in general are reluctant to treat dogs who have done this as they cannot be sure that they are not putting people at risk.
Another behaviourist said that she would teach Max to "learn to enjoy wearing a muzzle" - this really upset me.

I'm not surprised you're confused!
To clarify one thing, no behaviourist can guarantee a dog won't bite again. It would be naive and foolish to give this sort of advice for ANY dog.
However, it is the behaviourist's job first to assess how treatable the problem behaviour is, and to give the owner realistic ideas of how far the treatment can bring them. This, however, is not an excuse not to treat a dog at all.

Now, I feel the need to defence behaviourists, and by "behaviourists", I mean poeple who are genuinely qualified and experienced enough to claim entitlement to that title.
Animal behaviour is a science, it is just as complex as any branch of human psychological or behavioural sciences. A number of people in Ireland have busted their butts and bank balances to achieve the required level of academic qualification and experience so that, when the title of "behaviourist" becomes protected in the future, they are already in a position to assume the title. The titles of vet, and medical doctor etc are protected: it is illegal for someone who is not qualified to use them. The title of "animal behaviourist" is going that direction too.
However, as it stands right now, any eejit can set themselves up as a behaviourist. Many such people have been training dogs for 100 years, have won obedience competitions, or have owned dogs since they were in the womb. But, in the absence of academic qualification, I'm afraid this does not a dog behaviourist make.
People who advocate dominance theory, pack theory, rank reversal etc as training methods are showing themselves up: they are not qualified. These theories have been disproven, and are consequently outdated. Had these "behaviourists" gone to the trouble of educating themselves properly, they'd know this, and would not be advocating it any more. In other words, when a "behaviourist" tells you your dog is trying to dominate you, you know you're not actually talking to a person who meets the standard that's going to be required to use the title of "behaviourist". They have not educated themselves, they have not upskilled, and they are not keeping their education up to date. Quite frankly, they owe their clients more than that.

Shazanne
All have said that he fact that he is a rescue with no known history makes any form of behavioural therapy extremely difficult and less likely to succeed.

Hmm. To some extent this is right. But, in fact, many owners of dogs they've owned since pups are no more enlightened as to the cause of their dog's behavioural problems than the owner of a rescued dog is.
A good behaviourist will be able to give a good educated guess as to the origins of aggressive or fearful behaviours, but the reality is that it's not the past the behaviourist has to deal with. It's the present. It's the present behaviours which are quantifiable and these are what the behaviourist and owner will be trying to modify and manage.
So, whilst it's interesting to know the past, it's the present and future that are important.

Shazanne
But he obviously has psychological issues that I did not know about and they are, according to the experts I have spoken to, getting much worse.

I don't think anyone should have said this to you based on a phone conversation, with all due respect.

Shazanne
My vet had already pointed out that there are many people masquerading as behaviourists with very basic qualifications so I did check them out on apdt.ie to see if they are registered there.

And did you find any of the people who advocated dominance, muzzling, or not dealing with crossbred dogs from APDT Ireland? I seriously hope not, because members of this group are not only well qualified, they are not supporters of any of the above approaches or attitudes. Moreover, as a general rule they're highly supportive of people with rescue dogs!
Please clarify this, I think it's important as your post suggests the poor advice you got came from APDT Ireland members, when it's unlikely it did. I hope:(

Shazanne wrote: »

The fact that he has these problems is most likely not entirely his fault - but the fact that he is is not a purebred or pedigree dog most certainly isn't. If trainers/behaviourists want to only treat and help purebred dogs they should state that on their websites.

I am utterly at a loss as to why any behaviourist or trainer, good or bad, would say this to you!:(

Vince32 wrote: »

There is nothing that can't be fixed when it comes to dogs, anyone who won't work with your dog is concerned about liability and basically covering their backside.

This is simply not true, There are dogs that can't be fixed and it is naive to say otherwise.
Whilst some of the people Shazanne spoke to may have tried to wash their hands, it is a duty of a good behaviourist not to give owners misleading information or false hope: indeed, it is written into the code of conduct of all good umbrella organisations. Whilst you might call this ass-covering, I call it responsible and right to give owners realistic expectations.
As an aside, owners should not be afraid to ask behaviourists and trainers what level of liability cover they have.

Vince32
It will take anything from 1-2 days to 1-2 weeks for the message to sink in,

:eek: This is a tad optimistic IMO.

Vince32
It's never bad to be around other dogs either, just control the encounter, they will start sniffing the nose first, then move around to the genitals (where the scent is), if either of the dogs gets snarly or defensive, firm no, and walk away as if the other dog wasn't even there, tug on the leash if you have too, but remain calm and walk at a steady pace, eyes up, shoulders down.

In fact, face-to-face greetings are more often seen in inexperienced dogs, as they can be a little risky.
I wish treating dog to dog aggression was as easy as the human assuming a certain body posture. That sort of thing only seems to "work" on heavily edited TV programs:rolleyes:

Vince32
Socialise the dog in training classes, and ask the trainer for help with "guarding", it will all come right for you if you put the time in, and always have a result for bad behaviour.

A training class is not the place to deal with aggression or guarding.

Vince32
Your last resort will be re-homing the dog, but I doubt very much it will come to that.

You can't say that at this remove.

DBB

Maudi wrote: »

...

Post reported

Cherry Blossom

Maudi wrote: »

...

Banned, and if I find out you are who I think you are using a different account, you'll be perma-banned from A&PI

jinxycat

I've sent you a pm OP I hope it's of help!!!

Shazanne

DBB wrote: »

I'm not surprised you're confused!
To clarify one thing, no behaviourist can guarantee a dog won't bite again. It would be naive and foolish to give this sort of advice for ANY dog.
However, it is the behaviourist's job first to assess how treatable the problem behaviour is, and to give the owner realistic ideas of how far the treatment can bring them. This, however, is not an excuse not to treat a dog at all.

Now, I feel the need to defence behaviourists, and by "behaviourists", I mean poeple who are genuinely qualified and experienced enough to claim entitlement to that title.
Animal behaviour is a science, it is just as complex as any branch of human psychological or behavioural sciences. A number of people in Ireland have busted their butts and bank balances to achieve the required level of academic qualification and experience so that, when the title of "behaviourist" becomes protected in the future, they are already in a position to assume the title. The titles of vet, and medical doctor etc are protected: it is illegal for someone who is not qualified to use them. The title of "animal behaviourist" is going that direction too.
However, as it stands right now, any eejit can set themselves up as a behaviourist. Many such people have been training dogs for 100 years, have won obedience competitions, or have owned dogs since they were in the womb. But, in the absence of academic qualification, I'm afraid this does not a dog behaviourist make.
People who advocate dominance theory, pack theory, rank reversal etc as training methods are showing themselves up: they are not qualified. These theories have been disproven, and are consequently outdated. Had these "behaviourists" gone to the trouble of educating themselves properly, they'd know this, and would not be advocating it any more. In other words, when a "behaviourist" tells you your dog is trying to dominate you, you know you're not actually talking to a person who meets the standard that's going to be required to use the title of "behaviourist". They have not educated themselves, they have not upskilled, and they are not keeping their education up to date. Quite frankly, they owe their clients more than that.



Hmm. To some extent this is right. But, in fact, many owners of dogs they've owned since pups are no more enlightened as to the cause of their dog's behavioural problems than the owner of a rescued dog is.
A good behaviourist will be able to give a good educated guess as to the origins of aggressive or fearful behaviours, but the reality is that it's not the past the behaviourist has to deal with. It's the present. It's the present behaviours which are quantifiable and these are what the behaviourist and owner will be trying to modify and manage.
So, whilst it's interesting to know the past, it's the present and future that are important.



I don't think anyone should have said this to you based on a phone conversation, with all due respect.



And did you find any of the people who advocated dominance, muzzling, or not dealing with crossbred dogs from APDT Ireland? I seriously hope not, because members of this group are not only well qualified, they are not supporters of any of the above approaches or attitudes. Moreover, as a general rule they're highly supportive of people with rescue dogs!
Please clarify this, I think it's important as your post suggests the poor advice you got came from APDT Ireland members, when it's unlikely it did. I hope:(



I am utterly at a loss as to why any behaviourist or trainer, good or bad, would say this to you!:(




This is simply not true, There are dogs that can't be fixed and it is naive to say otherwise.
Whilst some of the people Shazanne spoke to may have tried to wash their hands, it is a duty of a good behaviourist not to give owners misleading information or false hope: indeed, it is written into the code of conduct of all good umbrella organisations. Whilst you might call this ass-covering, I call it responsible and right to give owners realistic expectations.
As an aside, owners should not be afraid to ask behaviourists and trainers what level of liability cover they have.



:eek: This is a tad optimistic IMO.




In fact, face-to-face greetings are more often seen in inexperienced dogs, as they can be a little risky.
I wish treating dog to dog aggression was as easy as the human assuming a certain body posture. That sort of thing only seems to "work" on heavily edited TV programs:rolleyes:



A training class is not the place to deal with aggression or guarding.




You can't say that at this remove.

Hi DBB,
I cannot even begin to thank you for the amount of help and advice you have given me.
I wish I could use this post in the way you have replied to me, by highlight the points I want to answer, but I can't seem to get the hang of that!
Anyway, the main things I want to address is that I contacted several behaviourists today to get opinions and to to see what options I may have. Most of them came from the ADPT list you mentioned, but not all. I would by lying to you to say that it was the registered ones who gave me the advice that you find alarming, but I know for certain that one of them was.
The comment about Max not being to blame for being a cross breed was not stated by a behaviourist - that was my own comment. But I most certainly did get the impression from more than one of those I spoke to that because he is not a "valuable" dog, he is not as worthy of help. That was the impression I got and my instincts in this regard are generally pretty good.
Myself and my husband have talked for hours about this whole situation tonight. And our decision is to try and get Max the help he needs and give him the chance he deserves. Obviously, he will need to be fully assessed and I will take the advice of the behaviourist on board in this regard.
In fact, we have also decided that Millie will be fully trained along with Max, which I feel may harmonise their relationship as well.
I apologise if some of this message and perhaps earlier ones are not fully explanatory but I have been talking and writing about this all day and my brain is frazzled at this stage.
But I am going to bed tonight full of determination to help both my dogs all the help I can and to commit to doing all I can as an owner to help them as well. And I have my husband's 100% support on this. However, if Max were to bite again I think I would have great difficulty in getting the same level of support a second time.
But, for the first time since this happened, I am feeling more positive. And I hope and pray that both Max and Millie are on the road to becoming more balanced, more sociable and, at the risk of sounding overly optimistic, more trustworthy.
Thank you so much again.

kylith

Op, I too have a dog who had bitten someone on the face. As with your dog it so happened that the face was simply the closest body part to the dog, so that was what she lunged for when she felt threatened.

It does sound to me like your dog is resource guarding you. If I were you the first things I would do is not allow the dog on the bed or on the sofa. Have your OH feed him so that OH becomes more valuable to the dog, and get in touch with a non dominance-based trainer.

Shazanne

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Banned, and if I find out you are who I think you are using a different account, you'll be perma-banned from A&PI

AJ, I didn;t see that post thank God, but I feel you may - through your diligence as a moderator - have spared me from something upsetting. If I am right about this, I thank you very much.

LucyBliss

Major kudos to you, Shazanne and to your husband, for doing all this research and soul searching. Max is clearly in a good home with people unwilling to give up on him at the first major hurdle. I'm sorry I'm not in a position to offer any practical support, but I'm cheering you on here and I wish you and Max every success!

Brianne

Shazanne,
I really feel sorry for you and totally understand your predicament as I have a very similar dog. My dog was born here with us, her mother a dog that wandered in hungry and in bad shape and went into pup before we had a chance to get her spayed. My dog is now 9 and we have to keep her in a large run at the back of our home all the time as she cannot be trusted with people. I can only bring her for walks out through the fields as I do not want to meet anybody while shes with me.
In the past she has snapped at a couple of people, just short ago a friend of mine went out to see my garden with me and the dog went straight for her leg which I was'nt expecting as I was with my friend at the time.
In the night time when shes in her box in her house if I went to put my hand down to rub her she would growl at me. I know her strange ways so I ignore them. The vet said many years ago that its something in her genes.
Sometimes I put a muzzle on her and she does'nt like it atall but I know she would get used to it eventually if needs be. I have a grandchild who regularly visits and I have to be extra careful from now on. Would you try a muzzle and see how it goes on your dog. I know its not the nicest but having to put the dog down is a lot worse and there is no way anybody will take a dog of that temperament. I also have to keep her away from my other dogs as she would go for them if she got free. Her mother is old and still living and they get on grand together except when it comes to feeding and the poor mothers food would be gone like a shot if I did'nt stay with her.
Again I really hope things will work out well for you because when you love a dog, no matter how ill mannered and contrary they are its very hard to part with them.

Shazanne

Yesterday was thinking day and today was action day!
After all my research yesterday I found a wonderful behaviourist and trainer who has listened to every thing we had to say about Max (and Millie too!) and we have been 100% honest with her.

So, the first thing we did today was collect Max from the vets:) When I explained our plan to my vet he was happy that we were doing something about the problem and no just coming home to try and handle it ourselves.

I have taken Max to the behaviourist, who will assess him over the next couple of days. She feels it necessary to do this as it is not something that can be done in a session of just a couple of hours. I am to contact her on Tuesday morning and, all going well with Max, we will be starting a full behaviour and training programme with both Millie and Max - and ourselves of course, as that is where I believe the problem truly lies.

I have learned a very valuable lesson through all of this. Despite the fact that I have had pets (dogs and cats) all my life, I have never had problems of this nature before. I think I may have felt I "knew it all" - but I really know very little and need to learn a great deal. I am inclined to "humanise" my pets and treat them like children. I have now learned that I am not doing them any favours at all by doing this. In fact, I am being unkind to them by not allowing them to be what they truly are, which is a dog. I have been sending out all the wrong signals and even the wrong ones I have been sending out are not consistent.
So I need to learn from scratch and I am prepared to try my best to do this. I know it will be difficult and I will have to put alot of effort into it and I hope I am strong enough to do that. But, for Max's sake, I am willing to try.
When I looked at him today and realised how close he had come to never coming back to the "Forever Home" I had promised him, it shook me to the core. Because I really believe that that was my fault by not investing the time it takes to train him properly.
I hope that Max responds to training and I hope it does not turn out to be the case that he has problems that cannot be addressed. But, from our part (mine and my husbands) it won't be for the want of trying.

Thank you to all who took the time to help and advise me over the past couple of days. This whole experience seemed like a nightmare at times but people on here have been so good, even when at times my posts must have sounded like the ramblings of an emotional wreck. I hope that my experiences can be of help to others and, if ever I feel I can help others on here, I will try my very best to do so.

paultf

Best of luck with it Shazanne - hope it all works out for you, your family & your dogs.

kissmybumper

Take a breather a lot has happened in a short space of time. Not anyone's fault it's the personality lick of the draw on both parts really. There is a lot of behavioural this and that I've read a lot myself, did training classes and am a qualified vet nurse. Don't let anyone decide for you.

Sometimes people study behaviour and learn a one or very few theories and stick with that one - which is fair enough you'd think it would be correct if being taught.

I think you would be passing on your responsinilty if you rehome which isn't fair on Max as I'm sure he's been through a lot - if you really think of them as your children you wouldn't just give one away.

It is scary but I am sure fixable, but until you've really tried to fix this don't be stressing about the big sleep or rehoming.

There are simple things like not giving eye contact and simply not letting him answer the door with you that can help but as part of a bigger programme.

I have a lecturer I stay in contact with when people come into my clinic - who is a dog whisperer - yes it sounds airy fairy but cases like yours have come and gone with a happy ending and I still see them.

Would you like her number? She has been doing it for years and only recently starting teaching animal training too I believe as she refused to teach theories she didn't believe in unlike many colleges and lecturers, she's in it for the dogs not the money which is refreshing.

toadfly

Best of luck with it, it's going to be hard work but I'm sure ye 4 are up to the challenge.

Cherry Blossom

Shazanne wrote: »

I have learned a very valuable lesson through all of this. Despite the fact that I have had pets (dogs and cats) all my life, I have never had problems of this nature before. I think I may have felt I "knew it all" - but I really know very little and need to learn a great deal.

I'm pretty sure we have all been there at some stage!

I am inclined to "humanise" my pets and treat them like children. I have now learned that I am not doing them any favours at all by doing this. In fact, I am being unkind to them by not allowing them to be what they truly are, which is a dog. I have been sending out all the wrong signals and even the wrong ones I have been sending out are not consistent.
So I need to learn from scratch and I am prepared to try my best to do this. I know it will be difficult and I will have to put alot of effort into it and I hope I am strong enough to do that. But, for Max's sake, I am willing to try.

On Friday I finally had a book arrive that had been on my wish-list for a long time - Canine Body Language by Brenda Aloff. It's a photographic guide of the subtle messages dogs give off with explanations as to what is being communicated with different combinations of these signals. It's all very interesting and even things I already knew are seen in a slightly different light when it's all spelled out in front of you. Dogs speak 'people' very well - much better than people speak dog!

When I looked at him today and realised how close he had come to never coming back to the "Forever Home" I had promised him, it shook me to the core. Because I really believe that that was my fault by not investing the time it takes to train him properly.
I hope that Max responds to training and I hope it does not turn out to be the case that he has problems that cannot be addressed. But, from our part (mine and my husbands) it won't be for the want of trying.

Remember that there will still be time and ways for you to interact with the dogs, perhaps just in a slightly different way. I'm as guilty as anyone for allowing my life to revolve around my pets perhaps a little too much but I do try my hardest to find my own 'inner dog' rather the dog's 'inner person', I'm not sure that's entirely best for my own mentality, but it is best for my dog!

I hope that Max responds to training and I hope it does not turn out to be the case that he has problems that cannot be addressed. But, from our part (mine and my husbands) it won't be for the want of trying.

Well I can assure you that plenty of people here have their fingers, toes and paws all crossed for you.

Inexile

Shazanne wrote: »

I have learned a very valuable lesson through all of this. Despite the fact that I have had pets (dogs and cats) all my life, I have never had problems of this nature before. I think I may have felt I "knew it all" - but I really know very little and need to learn a great deal. I am inclined to "humanise" my pets and treat them like children. I have now learned that I am not doing them any favours at all by doing this. In fact, I am being unkind to them by not allowing them to be what they truly are, which is a dog. I have been sending out all the wrong signals and even the wrong ones I have been sending out are not consistent.
So I need to learn from scratch and I am prepared to try my best to do this. I know it will be difficult and I will have to put alot of effort into it and I hope I am strong enough to do that. But, for Max's sake, I am willing to try.
When I looked at him today and realised how close he had come to never coming back to the "Forever Home" I had promised him, it shook me to the core. Because I really believe that that was my fault by not investing the time it takes to train him properly.
I hope that Max responds to training and I hope it does not turn out to be the case that he has problems that cannot be addressed. But, from our part (mine and my husbands) it won't be for the want of trying.
.

I have just finished reading this thread and Shazane I just want to say that I salute you.
You and your husband have had an awful experience, you very rationally and sensibly didnt go for the easy option and sought professional advice. By the sounds of it the advice given by "professionals " did little but to reinforce the negative aspect and with no help provided.

Many people would have at that stage said I have done all I can, there is nothing I can do to change this situation and given up on their dog.
Thankfully some posters here have been able to give some concrete advice on the "professional" advice and helped in your determination to find an alterantive route.

I also think its brilliant that you can state that despite your long time dealings with dogs you have made mistakes.

If I am reincarnated and come back as a dog can I come and live with you.:) Your home sounds perfect.

Good luck with the training and please provide an update. I would really like to know how you and Max, of course, get on.

ABajaninCork

Oh - I've been following this, but didn't comment as I didn't feel able to give advice.

But - I am so glad you've been able to find someone who might be able to help. I'm rooting for you all the way!

Team MAX!!

Brianne

Good luck with everything Shazanne. Yes please let us know how things go.

Shazanne

What a fantastic group of people you all are!! Thank you all from the bottom of my heart - and Max's too!!!

tk123

Well done Shazanne! I really felt for you the other night when you posted I'm glad you've decided to try and get help and work on the issues.

Dodd

It is good to see a thread go the right way here and no one attack the OP.

I will add that it might be a good idea to take notes of the training and stuff
you learn because you will need to keep this up long after the dog is ok.

Some people get their dog to be fine and then think ok well I can stop training now.

You need to keep it going.

Good on you for looking for help and fair play to your husband for giving the dog another chance.