FTP - Functional Threshold Power....how big is yours!!

Nwm2 · 05-07-2012 10:54pm

BennyMul · 06-07-2012 8:21am

Nwm2 wrote: »

Now - I forgot to calibrate the frickin' Powertap before starting!

Do you have to calibrate the PT? I thought it did this its self on startup.

Nice ride there, pity about the 60min do.

for anyone interested here is Wiggins wattage zones eeeeeeeek
http://www.ciclismo-espresso.com/2012/06/wiggins-wattage-zones.html

Nwm2 · 07-07-2012 11:45am

BennyMul wrote: »

Do you have to calibrate the PT? I thought it did this its self on startup.

Nice ride there, pity about the 60min do.

for anyone interested here is Wiggins wattage zones eeeeeeeek
http://www.ciclismo-espresso.com/2012/06/wiggins-wattage-zones.html

Note 100% sure about PT calibration - seems to be one of the first things people trot out on forums. Should research it better I guess.

Anyway, when I analysed the file, and subtracted the last segment which included a significant period being slumped over the bike ready to puke after crossing the finish line, I averaged out at 329W. Maybe with a bit more analysis I can get even more power!

Although I'm not happy about not breaking the hour, I am happy with my power, and even more happy that I'm close to justifying a new TT bike for myself

Even more impressive than Wiggins raw numbers are his W/kg!

d4r3n · 31-08-2012 3:08pm

hf4z6sqo7vjngi · 31-08-2012 4:52pm

couerdelion · 03-10-2012 11:58am

tunney · 03-10-2012 12:00pm

couerdelion wrote: »

User|Starting FTP|Current FTP|Watts/kg|Target FTP|Target Watts/kg|Test|Unit
Jackyback|298watts|275watts|3.96|325watts|5.00|estimated|Power2Max PM
NWM2|285watts|327watts|3.9|310watts|3.7|40k TT|Powertap SL+
pgibbo|232watts|260watts|3.56|300watts|4.35|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
twonpelota|250 watts|250 watts|3.2|300watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|SRM
Fazz|255 watts|270.75 watts|3.99|300 watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Computrainer
Nerraw|216 watts|216 watts|3.33|280 watts|4.3|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
shotgunmcos|318 watts|325 watts|4.23|330watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
RedB|230 watts|230 watts|2.55|290 watts|3.5|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
BennyMul| 253 watts |253 watts |3.4|290watts|4|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap SL2+
Bobblehead_jr|345 watts|345 watts|4.9|390 watts|5.6|T5+T20*0.95| iBike iPro
Macanri|237 watts|237 watts|3.22|?280watts|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow T2200
Bambaata|322 watts|338 watts|4.29|345?watts|4.54|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
dx22|239 watts|239 watts|3.07|300watts|4.28|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow T2200
d4r3n|189 watts|210 watts|3.68|240 watts|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap
tunney|240 watts|230 watts|3.15|275 watts|3.72|Rough guess|Finger from air
couerdelion|252 watts|252 watts|2.29|300 watts|3.33|avg(2x8mins)*.90 |Cycleops Magneto + Trainer Road

As I'm starting training again for next season I'll join this if it's still going on. Or is a new one starting?

I'd say start a new one.

sconhome · 03-10-2012 12:04pm

Start one with regular testing of FTP and a set protocol for everyone to follow on turbo trainers? Levelish playing field.

tunney · 03-10-2012 12:11pm

couerdelion wrote: »

User|Starting FTP|Current FTP|Watts/kg|Target FTP|Target Watts/kg|Test|Unit
Jackyback|298watts|275watts|3.96|325watts|5.00|estimated|Power2Max PM
NWM2|285watts|327watts|3.9|310watts|3.7|40k TT|Powertap SL+
pgibbo|232watts|260watts|3.56|300watts|4.35|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
twonpelota|250 watts|250 watts|3.2|300watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|SRM
Fazz|255 watts|270.75 watts|3.99|300 watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Computrainer
Nerraw|216 watts|216 watts|3.33|280 watts|4.3|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
shotgunmcos|318 watts|325 watts|4.23|330watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
RedB|230 watts|230 watts|2.55|290 watts|3.5|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
BennyMul| 253 watts |253 watts |3.4|290watts|4|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap SL2+
Bobblehead_jr|345 watts|345 watts|4.9|390 watts|5.6|T5+T20*0.95| iBike iPro
Macanri|237 watts|237 watts|3.22|?280watts|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow T2200
Bambaata|322 watts|338 watts|4.29|345?watts|4.54|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
dx22|239 watts|239 watts|3.07|300watts|4.28|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow T2200
d4r3n|189 watts|210 watts|3.68|240 watts|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap
tunney|240 watts|230 watts|3.15|275 watts|3.72|Rough guess|Finger from air
couerdelion|252 watts|252 watts|2.29|300 watts|3.33|avg(2x8mins)*.90 |Cycleops Magneto + Trainer Road

As I'm starting training again for next season I'll join this if it's still going on. Or is a new one starting?

Just noticed the protocol here 2x8 * 0.9 ? Significant overestimate there. as in huge.

couerdelion · 03-10-2012 2:27pm

tunney wrote: »

Just noticed the protocol here 2x8 * 0.9 ? Significant overestimate there. as in huge.

It very well could be an over estimation. It's a standard test off TrainerRoad. There's an 2x8 minute test and also a 20 min test.

Chris Carmicheal also uses the 2x8 minute test to estimate training zones in "Time crunched cyclist" except he takes the higher of the two figures and then applies the 90%. The Trainer figure would be a lower figure than that as it takes the average.

The difference between the 20 min tests and the 8 minute is explained here:

TrainerRoad wrote:

The 2x8min format is more appropriate for riders who know how to really push themselves because it’s basically a measure of power at VO2max. And as the more experienced riders know, working at or very close to VO2max requires great focus and a willingness to endure a high level of suffering for 8 minutes, twice. The 20min format ratchets the intensity down a bit, but the challenge of properly pacing over a 20min effort tends to skew many riders’ final number.
Both formats are valid though, and the efforts – and consequently the data derived from the efforts – improve with time with respect to how accurately they assess maximal steady state power; practice make perfect.
I like my riders to re-test every 4 to 6 weeks and this depends on the time of training season. During the Base phases, there’s no need to reassess and adjust values any more frequently than every 6 weeks, but as the season progresses and the training intensity climbs, it behooves data-inclined riders to reassess more frequently, as often as every 4 weeks, in order to stay on top of their improvement and modify their target power figures as their capabilities increase.
And if you’ll indulge me, I’d also like to briefly address the misconception of estimated hour-power because this same notion plagued my understanding of assessment for quite some time. The concept is that we perform our assessment effort(s) and then derive a best-guess threshold value – HR, watts, or RPE – based on these sub-hour efforts. We then modify this number and voila, the theoretical output we should be able to sustain for a solid hour. But how many riders can actually ride at that power output for an hour, indoors or outdoors?
The answer is, the riders who have trained specifically and consistently in order to develop the muscular endurance and mental fortitude to endure a solid hour’s effort – translated, very few. This is not something that comes easily and many riders will never train with this intent, rather we assess this estimated sustainable output level to find a point where our power (and lactate levels) go from manageable to unmanageable, over the span of roughly one hour.
So while you might not be able to actually sustain this type of power for 60 minutes – give or take – as long as the format is consistent, both the 2x8min and 20min formats are still useful ways to quantify and track improvement, which is the real heart of the matter.

The bit in the bottom is the most important to me. I don't really care if my actual power figures are way out as long as I have a way of consistently measuring them and they show signs of improving.

tunney · 03-10-2012 2:41pm

Of course any test repeated will be useful for tracking improvement.

However on an FTP tracking thread does it make sense to use something that isn't FTP? You are comparing apples with oranges. Where in reality your apple isn't a granny smith but more of a crab apple.

If you cannot hold your FTP for an hour - then its not your FTP. By definition.
The reason, IMHO, people who determine their FTP from a 2x8 cannot hold it for an hour is because its not their FTP. A 20 minute TT with a 5 minute "opener" will give you a lower number but hey guess what - you'll hold it for an hour TT.

I bought the Time Crunched Cyclist book and it arrived yesterday. Based on what I have read here I'm regretting it.

RedB · 03-10-2012 2:43pm

couerdelion wrote: »

The bit in the bottom is the most important to me. I don't really care if my actual power figures are way out as long as I have a way of consistently measuring them and they show signs of improving.

Fair enough but I presume if you're then trying to use that FTP value for targeting race pace (as %FTP for various distances) then you'll have to take account that its a different protocal?

EDIT - Probably not an issue for you if you're not using a PM

couerdelion · 03-10-2012 3:13pm

tunney wrote: »

Of course any test repeated will be useful for tracking improvement.

However on an FTP tracking thread does it make sense to use something that isn't FTP? You are comparing apples with oranges. Where in reality your apple isn't a granny smith but more of a crab apple.

If you cannot hold your FTP for an hour - then its not your FTP. By definition.
The reason, IMHO, people who determine their FTP from a 2x8 cannot hold it for an hour is because its not their FTP. A 20 minute TT with a 5 minute "opener" will give you a lower number but hey guess what - you'll hold it for an hour TT.

I bought the Time Crunched Cyclist book and it arrived yesterday. Based on what I have read here I'm regretting it.

I'll do the 20 min test on Saturday to compare.

tunney · 03-10-2012 3:14pm

couerdelion wrote: »

I'll do the 20 min test on Saturday to compare.

With a five minute time trial before it.

This would be my standard test set

FTP Test
10 easy
5x(30sec build, 30sec easy)
5min TT
10 easy
20 min TT
10 easy

couerdelion · 03-10-2012 3:30pm

tunney wrote: »

With a five minute time trial before it.

This would be my standard test set

FTP Test
10 easy
5x(30sec build, 30sec easy)
5min TT
10 easy
20 min TT
10 easy

Similar to the test I'll be following which is:

10 mins easy build
3 x (1 min high cadence, 1 min easy)
5 mins easy
5 min TT
5 min easy
20 min TT
10 min easy

The 2 x 8 min was

12 min easy building
1 min high cadence
1 min easy
2 min high cadence
2 min easy
1 min all out effort
2 min easy
1 min all out effort
5 min easy
8 min TT
10 min easy
8 min TT
10 min easy

bryangiggsy · 05-10-2012 9:54pm

dx22 · 06-11-2012 9:38pm

tunney · 09-11-2012 11:10pm

Fazz · 09-11-2012 11:37pm

tunney wrote: »

User|Starting FTP|Current FTP|Watts/kg|Target FTP|Target Watts/kg|Test|Unit
Jackyback|298watts|275watts|3.96|325watts|5.00|estimated|Power2Max PM
NWM2|285watts|327watts|3.9|310watts|3.7|40k TT|Powertap SL+
pgibbo|232watts|260watts|3.56|300watts|4.35|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
Fazz|255 watts|270.75 watts|3.99|300 watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Computrainer
Nerraw|216 watts|216 watts|3.33|280 watts|4.3|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
shotgunmcos|318 watts|325 watts|4.23|330watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
RedB|230 watts|230 watts|2.55|290 watts|3.5|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
BennyMul| 253 watts |253 watts |3.4|290watts|4|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap SL2+
Bobblehead_jr|345 watts|345 watts|4.9|390 watts|5.6|T5+T20*0.95| iBike iPro
Macanri|237 watts|237 watts|3.22|?280watts|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow T2200
Bambaata|322 watts|338 watts|4.29|345?watts|4.54|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
dx22|239 watts|257 watts|3.51|300watts|4.28|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow T2200
d4r3n|189 watts|210 watts|3.68|240 watts|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap
tunney|270 watts|270 watts|3.55|350 watts|5.14|T5+T20*.95|SRM
couerdelion|252 watts|252 watts|2.29|300 watts|3.33|avg(2x8mins)*.90 |Cycleops Magneto + Trainer Road
bryangiggsy|221 watts|253 watts|3.24|290 watts|3.84|T5+T20*.95|SRM

Starting over for 2012

330 watts for T5 and 285 watts for T20. Slightly undercooked both

Almost exact same as my last CP5 + CP20.

Massive Target there!
Even allowing for weight loss.
270w to 350w!

You must be packing in the SRM for a P2M? :-) :-D

tunney · 09-11-2012 11:54pm

Fazz wrote: »

Almost exact same as my last CP5 + CP20.

Massive Target there!
Even allowing for weight loss.
270w to 350w!

You must be packing in the SRM for a P2M? :-) :-D

Now the proud owner of a PCV and a PC7. Must sell the PCV

Surprised at 270, given what I've done in the last while.

Yes 350 is big but a soft goal is a bad goal.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi · 14-11-2012 1:13pm

tunney · 14-11-2012 1:22pm

Miles Embarrassed Ubiquity wrote: »

User|Starting FTP|Current FTP|Watts/kg|Target FTP|Target Watts/kg|Test|Unit
Jackyback|298watts|278watts|4.08|320watts|5.00|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
NWM2|285watts|327watts|3.9|310watts|3.7|40k TT|Powertap SL+
pgibbo|232watts|260watts|3.56|300watts|4.35|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
Fazz|255 watts|270.75 watts|3.99|300 watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Computrainer
Nerraw|216 watts|216 watts|3.33|280 watts|4.3|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
shotgunmcos|318 watts|325 watts|4.23|330watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
RedB|230 watts|230 watts|2.55|290 watts|3.5|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
BennyMul| 253 watts |253 watts |3.4|290watts|4|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap SL2+
Bobblehead_jr|345 watts|345 watts|4.9|390 watts|5.6|T5+T20*0.95| iBike iPro
Macanri|237 watts|237 watts|3.22|?280watts|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow T2200
Bambaata|322 watts|338 watts|4.29|345?watts|4.54|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
dx22|239 watts|257 watts|3.51|300watts|4.28|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow T2200
d4r3n|189 watts|210 watts|3.68|240 watts|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap
tunney|270 watts|270 watts|3.55|350 watts|5.14|T5+T20*.95|SRM
couerdelion|252 watts|252 watts|2.29|300 watts|3.33|avg(2x8mins)*.90 |Cycleops Magneto + Trainer Road
bryangiggsy|221 watts|253 watts|3.24|290 watts|3.84|T5+T20*.95|SRM

332 watts for T5 and 293 watts for T20 http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/RBBCSSO3BJXGEL3Y4K5RKFN4BQ

Very interesting link, well worth a visit.

Bambaata · 14-11-2012 1:26pm

Fair play pappa smurf!

hf4z6sqo7vjngi · 14-11-2012 2:01pm

tunney wrote: »

Very interesting link, well worth a visit.

What I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you let smurfette go now, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you. But if you don't, I will look for you, I will find you, and I will kill you!!

To bring this thread back on topic. The next time i am out cycling with you Tunney and you are busting a gut at 90% FTP on efforts lugging that spare tyre around i will remind you that i am enjoying life with 10% less effort whilst singing the smurfs tune:)

sconhome · 14-11-2012 2:17pm

Miles Embarrassed Ubiquity wrote: »

What I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you let smurfette go now, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you. But if you don't, I will look for you, I will find you, and I will kill you!!

To bring this thread back on topic. The next time i am out cycling with you Tunney and you are busting a gut at 90% FTP on efforts lugging that spare tyre around i will remind you that i am enjoying life with 10% less effort whilst singing the smurfs tune:)

One of these might be handy

BennyMul · 15-11-2012 10:28am

sconhome · 21-11-2012 2:58pm

tunney wrote: »

FTP Test
10 easy
5x(30sec build, 30sec easy)
5min TT
10 easy
20 min TT
10 easy

Is everyone doing their FTP testing with this format or are there other ones in existence?

How about turbo resistence?
Are you going as hard as you can pace yourself over the time?

pgibbo · 21-11-2012 3:00pm

That's the approach I use also.

Pacing is key. If you blow early there's no coming back!

tunney · 21-11-2012 3:04pm

amphkingwest wrote: »

Is everyone doing their FTP testing with this format or are there other ones in existence?

How about turbo resistence?
Are you going as hard as you can pace yourself over the time?

Best effort 5 minute test - ignoring the fact there is a t20 after
Best effort 20 minute test.

Self selected cadence for both

sconhome · 21-11-2012 3:14pm

Thanks guys.

Have just set up the program on my head unit, time to get testing tonight.

FTP - Functional Threshold Power....how big is yours!!

Comments