Morgan chooses England over Wales

profitius

Rugby: Scarlets number eight Ben Morgan has declared his international allegiance to England. The 22 year old was born in Bristol but would have qualified for Wales later this month on the three-year residency rule.

After weighing up his options, Morgan has opted to make himself available for England and he will immediately come into consideration for Six Nations selection. He said: “I feel privileged and honoured that both Wales and England have been following me.

“It has taken me a while to think over and discuss with my family before I came to the decision of where I’d like to focus my ambitions for the future. But I’m English, I grew up supporting England and as a youngster I always dreamt of playing for England one day.

“Ultimately, if given the opportunity at international level, I want to try and take things forward with my home country.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2012/0104/1224309800846.html

There was talk of him being groomed for Wales for years. He is English so its the right decision. He could get a few caps and thats all.

Hype710

Also I think the little matter of Toby Faletau may have influenced his decision. Right call from an international career point of view, he could go on to be England's 8 for the best part of a decade and be a focal point in their redevelopment.

CIARAN_BOYLE

A right kick in teeth for Scarlets and Wales to find out that their project player isn't going to play for them.

Of course some fans disagree with residency qualification but for those who thought they would see him in a Welsh shirt as early as this 6Ns its a real blow.

Tox56

Things have got so bad, England are now stealing English players from other countries.

thomond2006

Ouch for Wales.

profitius

This partly why I'm against project players. Morgan was all set to play for Wales until he realised that he was good enough to play for his own country.

Its like the Irish exiles project. Any decent player of international potential wants to play for England eg Brookes and Geraghty. Its like a scouting operation for England.

tolosenc

blueboots12 wrote: »

A right kick in teeth for Scarlets and Wales to find out that their project player isn't going to play for them.

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

A right kick in teeth for Scarlets and Wales to find out that their project player isn't going to play for them.

Colour me sceptical...

He's English. What's the big deal? (That said, if Strauss turns around and plays for the Bokke in "The Rugby Championship" this year, I'd be devastated)...

totallegend

I suppose it depends on what deal he made with Scarlets when he started there.

If he got his contract on the basis that he'd declare for Wales, then he's broken his word and that is not acceptable.

But, if he got his contract and then when he turned out to be rather good, people started speculating about his national allegiance, then he can do what he likes. As far as I know, that's the way it happened.

GerM

Has to be a serious blow to the Scarlets. They signed him as a teenager, developed him and have seen him through 3 years (almost) of his career. I wonder if he qualified for Wales this month instead of May would he be declaring for Wales? Morgan rejected a call up to the Saxons last summer so the "dreamt of playing for England" part is a bit of a stretch. The issue for the Scarlets is that they now be dedicating a NWQ spot to a guy won't be available for them during the international windows.

Amazotheamazing

tolosenc wrote: »

Colour me sceptical...

He's English. What's the big deal? (That said, if Strauss turns around and plays for the Bokke in "The Rugby Championship" this year, I'd be devastated)...

I'd actually love if Strauss played for SA. Same way I'm glad Morgan has gone back with England.

No offence to Strauss, but he can't appreciate what it must be like to grow up dreaming of playing for Ireland and to be able to achieve that, whereas Best and Cronin can. That applies to other project players like Diack, Borlase etc.

If we see Int rugby as just a place where we gather some decent SH players to play for us than it's pointless imo. I'd hate to see (for example) Steenson, Niall Morris or Tom Hayes declare for England, even if England wanted them and we didn't.

totallegend

Suggest we don't rehash the "merits of project players" argument yet again.

PhatPiggins

Morgans no where near international standard yet and to be honest he's very one dimensional. He'd make a good impact sub but if he's got dreams of being a regular starter for England he's deluding himself.

thomond2006

The RFU said they were stamping down on players being selected whose club was outside England. Let's see if they mean it.

tolosenc

thomond2006 wrote: »

The RFU said they were stamping down on players being selected whose club was outside England. Let's see if they mean it.

Came in here to say the same after I'd realised it. He won't be playing for England until he goes and plays there...

CIARAN_BOYLE

tolosenc wrote: »

He won't be playing for England until he goes and plays there...

Which is the biggest issue for Scarlets imo it means that he has to leave to play international rugby. That must be hard for Scarlets since as mentioned above they signed him as a teenager

Apparently Morgan is to be fast tracked into the senior side http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2082316/Ben-Morgan-fast-tracked-England-team.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

totallegend

thomond2006 wrote: »

The RFU said they were stamping down on players being selected whose club was outside England. Let's see if they mean it.

Morgan is exempt as the policy only applies to players who join/joined foreign clubs after the decision was announced.

profitius

FORMER Wales Under-20s star Steve Shingler has decided to pledge his allegiance to Scotland instead of Wales after being named in Andy Robinson's Six Nations 36-man training squad.

Shingler, born in Swansea and who joined London Irish from Scarlets at the start of this season, qualifies for Scotland through his Dumfries born mum, Jeanette.

Read More http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/01/05/former-wales-under-20-star-steve-shingler-opts-for-scotland-after-being-named-in-six-nations-squad-91466-30065320/#ixzz1ibQQnSkk

He might not have made the Welsh squad anyway.

GerM

profitius wrote: »

He might not have made the Welsh squad anyway.

I would have been surprised. He's not first choice at the Scarlets when all are fit and he's certainly not getting a sniff ahead of Lydiate who is far more experienced and better than him. Ryan Jones would be their second choice blindside and still has a couple of years in him. That said, Scotland have always had plenty of blindsides. He might be seen as a potential replacement for Hines as a blindside/lock.

irishbucsfan

GerM wrote: »

I would have been surprised. He's not first choice at the Scarlets when all are fit and he's certainly not getting a sniff ahead of Lydiate who is far more experienced and better than him. Ryan Jones would be their second choice blindside and still has a couple of years in him. That said, Scotland have always had plenty of blindsides. He might be seen as a potential replacement for Hines as a blindside/lock.

You're thinking of Aaron Shingler. Who is actually playing really well for the Scarlets this year.

Steve Shingler plays for LI

GerM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You're thinking of Aaron Shingler. Who is actually playing really well for the Scarlets this year.

Steve Shingler plays for LI

That'll teach me not to read an article properly.

cp

GerM wrote: »

That'll teach me not to read an article properly.

To be fair, they are brothers and the younger Shingler did play for the Scarlets too..

As far as I know Aaron is already committed to, and capped by wales and now Steve is going to play for Scotland.. Would this be a first? Two brothers playing for 2 different countries? I have a feeling it might have happened before, but can't think of an example.

vinny chase

cp wrote: »

To be fair, they are brothers and the younger Shingler did play for the Scarlets too..

As far as I know Aaron is already committed to, and capped by wales and now Steve is going to play for Scotland.. Would this be a first? Two brothers playing for 2 different countries? I have a feeling it might have happened before, but can't think of an example.

The Aussie prop Salesi Ma'afu played against his brother Campese Ma'afu (who played for Fiji), they actually both made their respective debuts scrummaging against one another. Interestingly, they have a younger brother named Apakuki Ma'afu who has played sevens for Tonga!

Otto Skadelig

Also Matt Dunnings younger brother Casey played for Canada

JustinDee

cp wrote: »

To be fair, they are brothers and the younger Shingler did play for the Scarlets too..

As far as I know Aaron is already committed to, and capped by wales and now Steve is going to play for Scotland.. Would this be a first? Two brothers playing for 2 different countries? I have a feeling it might have happened before, but can't think of an example.

The Bachops where Steve played for Samoa and Graeme for New Zealand. Brent Cockbain qualified for Wales from living there while his brother Matt was a great Wallaby backrower.

vinny chase

Did a quick search there and also came up with the Tagicakibau brothers Michael and Sailosi who played for Fiji and Samoa respectively in the RWC.

There is of course Manu Tuilagi who's played for England, whilst five of his brothers play for Samoa.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Cross code issue but still interesting to note that Dougie Howletts brother was a RL international for Tonga

JustinDee

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Cross code issue but still interesting to note that Dougie Howletts brother was a RL international for Tonga

In that case, Brad Thorn with . . . himself as he's a Roo as well as a New Zealand international

andrewdcs

thomond2006 wrote: »

The RFU said they were stamping down on players being selected whose club was outside England. Let's see if they mean it.

Get the feeling that was aimed at people going SH or France tbh. I.e. No problem picking Pro12ers for some odd reason there are almost no english players in the pro12. Think Thornley or someone discussed it a few months back, it's a curio.

RFU have already massively improved on last year by dropping Care (two drunk driving events over christmas.... have to ask who his friends are... the new coach was his mentor in schools rugby!) I'd be worried about the backlash from a fired up England but at the same time would colour myself unsurprised if Scotland beat them first up... that kind of season methinks.

profitius

Row erupts over Shingler eligibility

The Welsh Rugby Union were today poised to challenge the International Rugby Board to rule Steven Shingler ineligible for Scotland after the 20-year-old was called into Andy Robinson's squad for the forthcoming RBS 6 Nations.

Swansea-born London Irish fly-half or centre Shingler was yesterday named as one of six uncapped players in Scotland head coach Robinson's 36-man squad as preparations for the 4 February Calcutta Cup clash with England at Murrayfield began in earnest.

However, a row has erupted over his eligibility and the IRB are set to determine Shingler's fate.

Shingler played at full-back for Wales under-20s against France under-20s in the 2011 Six Nations, when both nations declared the age-group squads as their second XVs, effectively handcuffing the players involved to those nations.

However, Scotland, who believe Shingler qualifies as a result of his Dumfries-born mother, have been assured by the player that he kept his eligibility open by refusing to confirm his future would lie with Wales.

Following the declaration by the SRU, the WRU issued a further statement, effectively dismissing Shingler's claim and reiterating their stance.

The WRU statement last night read: "Steve Shingler played for Wales U20s against France in 2011 before which he was specifically informed, as were his fellow squad members, that the match would confirm their sole qualification as potential Wales senior international candidates.

"Shingler was told by the U20 team management that if he played in the game he would become a Wales qualified player and therefore ineligible for selection for any other nation.

"The regulations and guidelines relating to qualification compliance are set in accordance to IRB regulations and any questioning of these regulations should be directed to the IRB.

"We have made the IRB aware of this issue today and will be returning to it as a matter of urgency in the morning."

The SRU's statement earlier in the evening read: "Steven has informed us that he made it clear that he wished to leave open his international eligibility as he was also eligible to represent Scotland and England as well as Wales.

"Scottish Rugby believes we have acted in good faith in this matter and have also taken cognisance of an IRB ruling last year concerning two players who played for Wales under-20 against France under-20 in 2010 who now play for Connacht and are eligible for Ireland.

"We are liaising with the IRB on this matter."

The SRU were referring to a ruling relating to Matthew Jarvis and James Loxton in which a precedent may have been set allowing Shingler to feature for Scotland.

The lad is half Scottish. The Welsh have no problem playing Islanders and English players on their team so they should let Shingler play for Scotland.

desertcircus

If he played for a Welsh team that ties him to Wales, then he's tied to Wales and shouldn't be allowed to play for Scotland. If we're going to have rules regarding international eligibility, then at the very least they need to be adhered to.

justsomebloke

desertcircus wrote: »

If he played for a Welsh team that ties him to Wales, then he's tied to Wales and shouldn't be allowed to play for Scotland. If we're going to have rules regarding international eligibility, then at the very least they need to be adhered to.

I thought the rule only applied if you have made a senior international start though as oppose to an Under 20's start. So it all depends on how the match was technically categorised I would of assumed.

The other side of the coin is he jumping the gun by going to Scotland just cause they are offering him a full cap at aged 20.

cp

vinny chase wrote: »

There is of course Manu Tuilagi who's played for England, whilst five of his brothers play for Samoa.

Ah! so its happened plenty of times..

Can't believe I didn't think of this one

desertcircus

justsomebloke wrote: »

I thought the rule only applied if you have made a senior international start though as oppose to an Under 20's start. So it all depends on how the match was technically categorised I would of assumed.

The other side of the coin is he jumping the gun by going to Scotland just cause they are offering him a full cap at aged 20.

I was under the impression that if you'd played for either the senior side or the reserve side, you were then tied - and Wales don't have a reserve side, so they registered the U20s as their reserves.

justsomebloke

desertcircus wrote: »

I was under the impression that if you'd played for either the senior side or the reserve side, you were then tied - and Wales don't have a reserve side, so they registered the U20s as their reserves.

That is why I said it depends on how the match was technically categorised by the IRB. Wales may see it as their 'A' side but if the IRB only had the game down as an under 20's game then it won't matter how Wales categorised it

pickarooney

Grégoire Yachvili plays for Georgia while his brother Dimitri plays for France.

JustinDee

justsomebloke wrote: »

Wales may see it as their 'A' side but if the IRB only had the game down as an under 20's game then it won't matter how Wales categorised it

Correct.

damianmcr

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/01/12/irb-back-wales-in-steve-shingler-eligibility-row-with-scotland-91466-30112730/

THE IRB have tonight backed Wales in the row with Scotland over the eligibility of London Irish star Steve Shingler.
The decision comes after Welsh rugby bosses sought the intervention of rugby's governing body following Scotland coach Andy Robinson's decision to name Swansea-born Shingler in his Six Nations squad last week.
Shingler was picked by the Scots as he has a Scottish mother, but Wales' insisted the 20-year-old can’t play for any team but Wales because of his appearances for Wales U20s, who he represented no fewer than 14 times.
They claim they made it clear to him prior to last March’s U20s international against France that playing in the match would mean he would only be eligible for Wales at senior level.

And that stance appears to have been vindicated after the IRB released a statement that should now lead to Shingler's withdrawl from the Scotland squad.
The full IRB statement read: "The International Rugby Board has been requested by the Scottish Rugby Union and Welsh Rugby Union to clarify the eligibility status of Steven Shingler.
"Under IRB Regulation 8 a player is tied to a country if he or she has played for the senior national fifteen-a-side national representative team or the next senior national representative team or the senior national representative Sevens team against opposition of the same designation. The national Under 20 team can be designated as the next senior national team under the Regulation.
"It is the right of a Union to choose whatever team it wishes to be designated as its next senior national representative team. It is also the sole responsibility of a Union to ensure that players selected to play for the teams designated with IRB Regulation 8 are eligible to do so.
"The IRB has reiterated to both Unions that during 2011 both Wales and France officially designated their Under 20 team to be the next senior national team. As the IRB has been advised that Shingler represented Wales Under 20 against France Under 20 in 2011 it would therefore indicate that he is tied to Wales and ineligible to play for any other Union.
"The SRU and WRU may wish the IRB Regulations Committee to consider this matter formally in accordance with IRB Regulation 2. The Unions are aware of the requirements of such a review."

danthefan

Very odd, goes against the ruling on the two lads Connacht signed.

thomond2006

danthefan wrote: »

Very odd, goes against the ruling on the two lads Connacht signed.

Different scenario for Shingler. Loxton and Jarvis played for Wales U20s vs France U20s when France still had an official France A side, therefore the France U20s wasn't their official "second" team.

Shingler played against France U20s when they were France's second side.

"Under IRB Regulation 8 a player is tied to a country if he or she has played for the senior national fifteen-a-side national representative team or the next senior national representative team or the senior national representative Sevens team against opposition of the same designation. The national Under 20 team can be designated as the next senior national team under the Regulation.

Flashdean

Code Cross but Maurie Fa'asavalu played for GB and England RL then went on to play for Samoa in the last RWC

profitius

He can count himself unlucky because he has a Scottish parent while Tuilagi, Fatelau etc can play for England and Wales after living their for a few years.

Having said that I think the rules need tightening up. The IRB needs to sort it out because its becoming a bit of a joke at the moment.

CatFromHue

profitius wrote: »

He can count himself unlucky because he has a Scottish parent while Tuilagi, Fatelau etc can play for England and Wales after living their for a few years.

According to the article above he played for the Wales U20's 14 times. If he wanted to play for Scotland maybe he shouldn't have done this. In my opinion there is no unluckyness about this.

JustinDee

Faletau has lived in Wales for more than just a few years. Has been there since 9 or 10 and is a full blooded product of Welsh development programme having played all his rugby there.

Somebody mentioned rugby league. Different qualification rules that allow international transfers in a three year window.

danthefan

Tuilagi has also lived in England for a good number of years.

Wiki:

Tuilagi played junior rugby at Hinckley RFC from U14's to U16's

Tuilagi said he would prefer to play internationally for England, where he had grown up.

Why is it a joke that he's playing for England exactly?

profitius

danthefan wrote: »

Tuilagi has also lived in England for a good number of years.

Why is it a joke that he's playing for England exactly?

Because hes not English! He'll make more money playing for England though..

JustinDee

profitius wrote: »

Because hes not English! He'll make more money playing for England though..

That's for him to decide and nobody else as long as he qualifies. Its not as if he just turned up and declared for England.

profitius

JustinDee wrote: »

As long as he qualifies, that's for him to decide and no-one else. Its not like he just arrived in the country and flipped to play for England.

He shouldn't be playing for England. He wasn't born in England, his parents are not English and he stayed there illegally. He should have been deported not be playing with England.

They might as well just start up an international transfer system.

Tox56

Shontayne Hape is the best example of the eligibility rules gone wrong. Tuilagi is more understandable, Hape is just taking the piss, and what should really be outlawed.

Flincher

I think doubling the residency period to 6 years would probably sort out most of these issues. I've no problem with Tuilagi playing for England. He spent his teens there, was educated there, and learned his rugby there. Its a completely different scenario to Hape or Flutey.

desertcircus

profitius wrote: »

He shouldn't be playing for England. He wasn't born in England, his parents are not English and he stayed there illegally. He should have been deported not be playing with England.

They might as well just start up an international transfer system.

Against that, he's been living there since he was thirteen years old. He hasn't lived in Samoa for seven years. Either the rules are all that matters, in which case his successful appeal to remain in England and his seven years of residency mean he's fine, or the rules are subordinate to the principles, in which case he's bulletproof, having represented his school at rugby, and more or less completely assimilated into English culture. There are players it's worth having a row over; Manu Tuilagi is not one of them. If nationality by naturalisation exists at all, he has it.

danthefan

profitius wrote: »

danthefan wrote: »

Tuilagi has also lived in England for a good number of years.

Why is it a joke that he's playing for England exactly?

Because hes not English! He'll make more money playing for England though..

Will we make a list of Irish players who aren't from Ireland?