Most important issue to Sean Barrett - Economy? Emigration? Crime? No - Dress.

steelcityblues

It seems like our good ol' CC has been really stretching that political brain of his, during the festive season: Thinking of solutions for the economy? Nope. Plans to limit emigration numbers of Irish citizens? Nope. This is what he has come up with:

The Ceann Comhairle also wants to see his plan for a better-dressed Dáil implemented. Male deputies would have to wear a jacket and a shirt with a collar – ties would be optional.

Clearly the issue of what politicians wear in a chamber is of grave national importance, at the turn of 2012. Admittedly, the idea of a Dail channel - a la BBC Parliament - sounds nice (if you are big into by that sort of thing).

Also, you have to frown at some of the 'damaging' words that are currently banned from the chamber.

The existing list of forbidden words includes: brat, buffoon, chancer, communist, corner boy, coward, fascist, gurrier, guttersnipe, hypocrite, rat, scumbag, scurrilous and yahoo.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0103/1224309737479.html

JustinDee

steelcityblues wrote: »

It seems like our good ol' CC has been really stretching that political brain of his, during the festive season: Thinking of solutions for the economy? Nope. Plans to limit emigration numbers of Irish citizens? Nope

None of the above is within the remit of the speaker though, surely?

schemingbohemia

JustinDee wrote: »

None of the above is within the remit of the speaker though, surely?

No but obviously not within the pea-brained knowledge of the OP.

Pete_Cavan

the Ceann Comhairle cannot actively engage in politics once he or she is appointed

/Thread.

steelcityblues

schemingbohemia wrote: »

No but obviously not within the pea-brained knowledge of the OP.

He is still allowed to advise, as part of his job. The worrying thing is will the majority of FG/labour members take his words.

Sierra Oscar

The Ceann Comhairle is in charge of how the house operates - and as has been pointed out above must be above party politics. Thus he spends his time coming up with policies in regards how the house operates rather than matters of economic importance and so forth.

Besides, singling out his work towards a dress code is not really right considering he is proposing significant changes as to how the house operates itself. You forgot to quote things such as the following . . .

Another ambition of the Ceann Comhairle is to “liven up question time and bring more people into the chamber”, so he proposes a change whereby he would draw the questions in a lottery before going into the House.

“Nobody would know the draw, so all the deputies who have put down their questions for oral reply will come in because they’ll wait and see are they going to be called.

“If they’re not there, their reply will go as a written reply but they won’t get in the supplementary.”

Sean Barrett has been a rather progressive CC so far, much more so than the likes of John O Donoghue who came before him. To claim that he is only interested in a dress code is a little unfair in my opinion.

steelcityblues

There is nothing 'progressive' about a cc who would like to enforce a narrow form of uniform on all the members of the House.

As for the lottery like proposal, what happens if one TD gets the right number more often than another one? It sounds unfair to me.

Sierra Oscar

steelcityblues wrote: »

There is nothing 'progressive' about a cc who would like to enforce a narrow form of uniform on all the members of the House.

As for the lottery like proposal, what happens if one TD gets the right number more often than another one? It sounds unfair to me.

There is little progressiveness about the minority of TD's who chose to dress in a certain style in order to gain cheap publicity from the house for political reasons. Same old cheap backwards politics at play, with plenty of optics and little substance.

Some would argue that the lottery is the fairest way forward . . . considering it is a lottery. Although the reality is that the lottery will exist alongside the current system of deputies being able to ask questions in a rota like manner - as far as I am aware anyways.

steelcityblues

Saying it is for cheap publicity is your opinion, but not a fact.

Many people in certain jobs don't go for the classic suit and tie combo, and don't suffer from bosses as a result. They can be found in areas of theprivate sector, which actually generate money.

Why should the Oireachtas be so specific, by comparison?

schemingbohemia

steelcityblues wrote: »

Saying it is for cheap publicity is your opinion, but not a fact.

Many people in certain jobs don't go for the classic suit and tie combo, and don't suffer from bosses as a result. They can be found in areas of theprivate sector, which actually generate money.

Why should the Oireachtas be so specific, by comparison?

Excellent work, straight in there with a dig at the public service!

One of your friends who doesn't adhere to the dress code also generated money that he neglected to pay into his employees pension fund which should have lead to him being excluded from the Dáil.

djpbarry

steelcityblues wrote: »

As for the lottery like proposal, what happens if one TD gets the right number more often than another one?

The laws of probability dictate that such a selection process will not bias any one TD, assuming all TD's put forward similar numbers of questions.

Suryavarman

As Ceann Comhairle it isn't Sean Barret's job to come up with ideas on how to fix the economy. It his his job to ensure that business in the Dail chamber is conducted in an orderly fashion. I do not see a problem with demanding that very well paid politicians are dressed appropriately. I personally find it disrespectful that politicians can't do something as basic as wearing a shirt and tie when they are in the Dail chamber. If they had another job they would more than likely be expected to conform to a dress code and the same should happen as a TD.

djpbarry

steelcityblues wrote: »

Many people in certain jobs don't go for the classic suit and tie combo...

Unless those "certain jobs" are public representatives of some description, that's not a valid comparison.

JustinDee

Suryavarman wrote: »

As Ceann Comhairle it isn't Sean Barret's job to come up with ideas on how to fix the economy. It his his job to ensure that business in the Dail chamber is conducted in an orderly fashion. I do not see a problem with demanding that very well paid politicians are dressed appropriately. I personally find it disrespectful that politicians can't do something as basic as wearing a shirt and tie when they are in the Dail chamber. If they had another job they would more than likely be expected to conform to a dress code and the same should happen as a TD.

Its utterly pathetic that they cannot respect the establishment that they are in fact part of.
If one goes to a funeral or attends court, they should dress accordingly. Not dressed like some kindergarten teacher on a day off. Same should apply for politicians in government buildings. Not some childish and snotty protest against a conventional dress-code.

steelcityblues

djpbarry wrote: »

Unless those "certain jobs" are public representatives of some description, that's not a valid comparison.

I have seen people in the IT sector wearing shirts more often than jackets. Also, in the media - which apart from RTE - is not government funded.

PCPhoto

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

the Ceann Comhairle cannot actively engage in politics once he or she is appointed

/Thread.

but yet can still qualify for a political pension including their time serving as ceann comhairle !

bleg

Well done to him. If he brings these ideas through the dail will be a better place and he will have done a good job.

djpbarry

steelcityblues wrote: »

I have seen people in the IT sector wearing shirts more often than jackets.

Great. So what?

Suppose you ran a company in the IT sector. Suppose you wanted a member of your staff to represent your company at a conference. Suppose said staff member showed up at said conference in a t-shirt and shorts - how do you suppose other attendees at the conference would view your company?

steelcityblues

djpbarry wrote: »

Great. So what?

Suppose you ran a company in the IT sector. Suppose you wanted a member of your staff to represent your company at a conference. Suppose said staff member showed up at said conference in a t-shirt and shorts - how do you suppose other attendees at the conference would view your company?

That is an extreme example - don't you think?

No one in the current Dail is resorting to the level of sloppy dressing like a t-shirt and shorts. Nor would I want to see it, if I was an IT sector head.

Barrett is simply trying to get back at certain TDs, who are on the opposition benches, IMO.

djpbarry

steelcityblues wrote: »

That is an extreme example - don't you think?

Not really, no. You didn't answer the question by the way.

steelcityblues wrote: »

No one in the current Dail is resorting to the level of sloppy dressing like a t-shirt and shorts.

Mick Wallace might as well be wearing shorts.

bleg

Mick Wallace wears what look to be manky t shirts that he's been wearing to bed for 10 years.

walshb

Suryavarman wrote: »

As Ceann Comhairle it isn't Sean Barret's job to come up with ideas on how to fix the economy. It his his job to ensure that business in the Dail chamber is conducted in an orderly fashion. I do not see a problem with demanding that very well paid politicians are dressed appropriately. I personally find it disrespectful that politicians can't do something as basic as wearing a shirt and tie when they are in the Dail chamber. If they had another job they would more than likely be expected to conform to a dress code and the same should happen as a TD.

I agree completely. It all comes down to our continuous failing standards.

As someone pointed out, dress code is appropriate for certain occasions or events, and it should be encouraged and followed.

hatrickpatrick

Sorry to be off topic here for a moment but with regard to question time, how does it work currently, and how would his proposals change it?

gerryo777

steelcityblues wrote: »

It seems like our good ol' CC has been really stretching that political brain of his, during the festive season: Thinking of solutions for the economy? Nope. Plans to limit emigration numbers of Irish citizens? Nope. This is what he has come up with:

The Ceann Comhairle also wants to see his plan for a better-dressed Dáil implemented. Male deputies would have to wear a jacket and a shirt with a collar – ties would be optional.

Clearly the issue of what politicians wear in a chamber is of grave national importance, at the turn of 2012. Admittedly, the idea of a Dail channel - a la BBC Parliament - sounds nice (if you are big into by that sort of thing).

Also, you have to frown at some of the 'damaging' words that are currently banned from the chamber.

The existing list of forbidden words includes: brat, buffoon, chancer, communist, corner boy, coward, fascist, gurrier, guttersnipe, hypocrite, rat, scumbag, scurrilous and yahoo.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0103/1224309737479.html

See that list of forbidden words.......does that not describe the last FF/Green front bench???:eek:

Coillte_Bhoy

steelcityblues wrote: »

He is still allowed to advise, as part of his job. The worrying thing is will the majority of FG/labour members take his words.

No actually, that is not part of his remit.

Liam Byrne

djpbarry wrote: »

Great. So what?

Suppose you ran a company in the IT sector. Suppose you wanted a member of your staff to represent your company at a conference. Suppose said staff member showed up at said conference in a t-shirt and shorts - how do you suppose other attendees at the conference would view your company?

Who in the Dáil has turned up in shorts, or are you just exaggerating the point to the extreme to make it seem more objectionable than it actually is ?

If the CC - and the Dáil in general - were more concerned about actions and attitudes that brought the Dáil into disrepute than the optics, we'd be better off.

A corrupt (insert Dáil-banned word) in a suit is still a corrupt (insert Dáil-banned word), just one who claims more expenses from us to pay Louis Copeland.

Head The Wall

Suryavarman wrote: »

I personally find it disrespectful that politicians can't do something as basic as wearing a shirt and tie when they are in the Dail chamber. If they had another job they would more than likely be expected to conform to a dress code and the same should happen as a TD.

Would you wear a suit and tie to a job if you weren't told too. Usually people are told what to wear and then they follow suit, that's not the case here

JustinDee wrote: »

Its utterly pathetic that they cannot respect the establishment that they are in fact part of.
If one goes to a funeral or attends court, they should dress accordingly. Not dressed like some kindergarten teacher on a day off. Same should apply for politicians in government buildings. Not some childish and snotty protest against a conventional dress-code.

Yes it's obvious the previous shower that we have had in the dail going back the last few decades showed nothing but respect to the establishment and never used it to feather their own nests :rolleyes:

bleg wrote: »

Well done to him. If he brings these ideas through the dail will be a better place and he will have done a good job.

Could you clarify what more will be achieved and why the dail would be a better place if politicians wore jackets and ties as opposed to a Barney costume.

bleg wrote: »

Mick Wallace wears what look to be manky t shirts that he's been wearing to bed for 10 years.

The people that he represents don't seem to have an issue with it, maybe people like yourself fell the same disdain towards these guys that regular voters feel towards the likes of Michael Lowry, Bev Flynn, Healy Rae and the absolute muppets that vote them in.

walshb wrote: »

I agree completely. It all comes down to our continuous failing standards.

As someone pointed out, dress code is appropriate for certain occasions or events, and it should be encouraged and followed.

I think the standards of our politicians are crap whether they wear suits or not, getting back to the OP, his point was this should be a non issue and the govt should get their finger out of their ass and get the country sorted out.

Liam Byrne

djpbarry wrote: »

Mick Wallace might as well be wearing shorts.

But he's not. So your arguments based on that are inherently flawed.

djpbarry

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Who in the Dáil has turned up in shorts...

Suppose someone did - would that be objectionable? Just curious as to where the line should be drawn?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

A corrupt (insert Dáil-banned word) in a suit is still a corrupt (insert Dáil-banned word)...

Considering Mick Wallace is not exactly squeaky clean, you don't really have a point.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

But he's not. So your arguments based on that are inherently flawed.

My point is that Wallace would look no less ridiculous and unprofessional if he showed up to the Dail in shorts. But I accept that's just my opinion.

Liam Byrne

djpbarry wrote: »

Considering Mick Wallace is not exactly squeaky clean, you don't really have a point.

Oh but I do - object to him on that (relevant) basis and I'll back you all the way. I've no time for the guy at all.

But that is a valid criticism of a politician and his actions; what he wears isn't.

djpbarry wrote: »

My point is that Wallace would look no less ridiculous and unprofessional if he showed up to the Dail in shorts. But I accept that's just my opinion.

My point is that I don't care what any of them wear or look like.......as long as they can do their job. The fact that Wallace is up to his neck in NAMA indicates that he can't (and can't be objective about it) which is a completely separate discussion.

Ahern & O'Donoghue wore suits and were despicable low-lifes.
O'Malley and Fitzgerald wore suits and were - compared to most who ever set foot in the Dáil - godsends.

What they wore didn't make a blind bit of difference to their mindset.

woodoo

They should have a dress code for sure.

djpbarry

Liam Byrne wrote: »

My point is that I don't care what any of them wear or look like.......as long as they can do their job.

So if they all show in shorts and vests, that's cool?

Liam Byrne

djpbarry wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

My point is that I don't care what any of them wear or look like.......as long as they can do their job.

So if they all show in shorts and vests, that's cool?

If a competent crowd showed up in shorts and vests and proved beyond doubt that they could fix everything by 2014, would you prefer to keep the current shower ?

NTMK

Liam Byrne wrote: »

If a competent crowd showed up in shorts and vests and proved beyond doubt that they could fix everything by 2014, would you prefer to keep the shower ?

They could show up in the nip for all i care if they were competent

johnnyskeleton

steelcityblues wrote: »

It seems like our good ol' CC has been really stretching that political brain of his, during the festive season: Thinking of solutions for the economy? Nope. Plans to limit emigration numbers of Irish citizens? Nope. This is what he has come up with:

The Ceann Comhairle also wants to see his plan for a better-dressed Dáil implemented. Male deputies would have to wear a jacket and a shirt with a collar – ties would be optional.

Clearly the issue of what politicians wear in a chamber is of grave national importance, at the turn of 2012. Admittedly, the idea of a Dail channel - a la BBC Parliament - sounds nice (if you are big into by that sort of thing).

Also, you have to frown at some of the 'damaging' words that are currently banned from the chamber.

The existing list of forbidden words includes: brat, buffoon, chancer, communist, corner boy, coward, fascist, gurrier, guttersnipe, hypocrite, rat, scumbag, scurrilous and yahoo.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0103/1224309737479.html

Didn't Mary Coughlan want "gombeen" also forbidden when she was tainiste?

Liam Byrne

NTMK wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

If a competent crowd showed up in shorts and vests and proved beyond doubt that they could fix everything by 2014, would you prefer to keep the shower ?

They could show up in the nip for all i care if they were competent

My point precisely!

steelcityblues

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Didn't Mary Coughlan want "gombeen" also forbidden when she was tainiste?

I believe Gay Mitchell was campaigning for 'waffler' too.

nyarlothothep

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Oh but I do - object to him on that (relevant) basis and I'll back you all the way. I've no time for the guy at all.

But that is a valid criticism of a politician and his actions; what he wears isn't.



My point is that I don't care what any of them wear or look like.......as long as they can do their job. The fact that Wallace is up to his neck in NAMA indicates that he can't (and can't be objective about it) which is a completely separate discussion.

Ahern & O'Donoghue wore suits and were despicable low-lifes.
O'Malley and Fitzgerald wore suits and were - compared to most who ever set foot in the Dáil - godsends.

What they wore didn't make a blind bit of difference to their mindset.

Nail on the head.

Except its not going to convince people who've already made their minds up that appearance is somehow more importance than substance/competence and then think that everyone else shares their opinion of what acceptable dress code is.

WeeBushy

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Nail on the head.

Except its not going to convince people who've already made their minds up that appearance is somehow more importance than substance/competence and then think that everyone else shares their opinion of what acceptable dress code is.

I don't think anyone said its more important than substance/competence.

Head The Wall

djpbarry wrote: »

So if they all show in shorts and vests, that's cool?

Here's a question for the people that reckon they all should be wearing suits etc. Plenty of companies have a dress code where the staff have to wear suits etc, a lot of these companies also have a casual day every Friday or the last Friday of the month. Is the standard of work different in the company on casual day?

RichieC

rearranging deck chairs while the titanic sinks.

what a disgrace. who gives a toss what they wear.

snobbery abounds.

Sunnyisland

I would rather see members of the dail wear smart suits or neat casual dress, Never liked the way Tony gregory dressed or even worse Mick wallace, And I know there are more important issues to be dealt with but surely a neat dress code for our TD,d is not to much to ask.They can well afford to dress themselfs.

walrusgumble

steelcityblues wrote: »

He is still allowed to advise, as part of his job. The worrying thing is will the majority of FG/labour members take his words.

Jesus. The Taoiseach or Tánaiste or any other Minister is really going to heed anything the Ceann Comharile says?.

That job tends to be given to someone who knows his political days are over.CC will know when to keep his mouth shut on those issues.

Advise on what by the way?

walrusgumble

realies wrote: »

I would rather see members of the dail wear smart suits or neat casual dress, Never liked the way Tony gregory dressed or even worse Mick wallace, And I know there are more important issues to be dealt with but surely a neat dress code for our TD,d is not to much to ask.They can well afford to dress themselfs.

Would you not be more interested in what a TD has to say? We have had plenty of gangster in nice smart suits for TD's; Lawlor, Burke, P Flynn, Haughey, Cosgrave, Berti etc. I would rather see people dress in a way that suits their personality at least then we might see the real them


By the way, for most part, all Tony Gregory was missing was a tie, one of the most pointless pieces of clothing around, one that will soon vanish. You sound like a bit of a snob, or a very old fashion type of person (the second description I mean no offence)

Einhard

Liam Byrne wrote: »

If a competent crowd showed up in shorts and vests and proved beyond doubt that they could fix everything by 2014, would you prefer to keep the current shower ?

Perhaps some here have higher expectations of our politicians than yourself Liam. I, for one, don't see why a politician can't be competent and professionally attired.

I don't mind TDs wearing jeans and a shirt. All I expect is that they are well presented. Wallace though, looks a mess. He appears slovenly and extremely lazily turned out. I don't care what the situation, but people should put some effort into their presentation if they want to be taken seriously.

Liam Byrne

Einhard wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

If a competent crowd showed up in shorts and vests and proved beyond doubt that they could fix everything by 2014, would you prefer to keep the current shower ?

Perhaps some here have higher expectations of our politicians than yourself Liam. I, for one, don't see why a politician can't be competent and professionally attired.

I don't mind TDs wearing jeans and a shirt. All I expect is that they are well presented. Wallace though, looks a mess. He appears slovenly and extremely lazily turned out. I don't care what the situation, but people should put some effort into their presentation if they want to be taken seriously.

If people had higher expectations we wouldn't be in this mess.

People are more interested in impressions and PR spin than doing anything right, and that carries across to those wearing suits.

Most of the ones in suits are the ones letting us down the most - TDs, bankers, lawyers, solicitors and priests.

Basically a suit gave an undeserved impression of professionalism and honesty.

Sunnyisland

walrus gumbo wrote: »

Would you not be more interested in what a TD has to say? We have had plenty of gangster in nice smart suits for TD's; Lawlor, Burke, P Flynn, Haughey, Cosgrave, Berti etc. I would rather see people dress in a way that suits their personality at least then we might see the real them

Of course I have more Interest in what they say & more Importantly what they do, Gangsters don't just wear suits so whats your point about above Td,s,Do you think if they where not in suits they be any less unscrupulous in there dealings.


)[/QUOTE] By the way, for most part, all Tony Gregory was missing was a tie, one of the most pointless pieces of clothing around, one that will soon vanish. You sound like a bit of a snob, or a very old fashion type of person (the second description I mean no offence)[/QUOTE]



I know exactly what TG was missing I voted for him enough times before he was moved from my area(Dublin 10),and imo he could have dressed smarter not necessarily in a suit, Don't know whether the tie will vanish or not you seem to know more about that then I do, And to you I sound like a snob, Well personally I couldn't give a rats what I sound like to you, and again imo being 50 is not that old, no offence taken no offence given.

Ursus articus

This is an old thread but seeing as this is an old thread which took half of last nights frontline time, my 2c are as follows. If any of these Tds wearing clown clothes to work had any respect for their values they would dress smartly and end this pointless debate. They should have enough respect for the people they represent to be a becoming outward expression of them. I doubt all the good people of Roscommon dress like teenagers. Nor do the people of Wexford dress like Worsel gummage. Had they any substance in the politics they preach they would have the respect to represent their views well! Would anyone put a business plan on the back of a box of matches and expect it to be taken seriously? This is a non issue and should be such! They need to end this bull**** and get on with the jobs they have!

Laminations

Having a dress code does not mean that how people dress is more important than what they do or say. Otherwise once I went to work in a suit I couldn't be fired. The importance of a dress code in the Dail is nothing to do with improving performance or increasing standards, it's showing respect for the chamber and presenting an air of professionalism. Just like wearing a suit at a funeral doesnt mean you are mourning harder are crying more. You would wear a suit to a funeral out of respect (or at least dress neatly). And it doesnt take the place of behaviour. A suit doesn't hide ineptness or crookedness, no more than a suit would hide the giggles at a funeral.

Dressing well has nothing to do with working harder, it's about respect and professionalism. Comparing our elected representatives to IT nerds insults the offices that they hold, the workplace that they frequent and the fact they represent a nation.

It was never the suit on Bertie or Seanie that fooled people, otherwise we'd all have been fooled.

ednwireland

i couldnt believe this was been discussed on the frontline last night, like there arent more important things to be discussing in the country at the moment, let them wear what they want td's wearing suits (or not for that matter) havent exactly impressed me in the last ten+ years

(didnt watch the program was in the rain, not wearing a suit watching Sam coming to donegal)

JustinDee

Show some respect and dress for where you are.
Simple. You should do it for a court appearance, a funeral or a wedding, so you should do it for the Government chambers too.

Acting the petulant kid and dressing like you're about to sit down on sofa for a day of Sky Sports doesn't do anyone any favours.