The European Cup is unsustainable

Digifriendly

Riskymove wrote: »

ok then, so apart from matches between the provinces generally

Munster vs Connacht on Stephen's day had a decent crowd but not a sell-out

Interesting to check crowds on Rabo Direct 12 website cf with last Christmas. Welsh crowds generally down (Ospreys vs Blues had x2 the no. last year) and increase in Scottish crowds for local derbies.

padser

Riskymove wrote: »

I do think that other countries, particularly France don't put as much emphasis on the HC. It is only natural, where a National League exists, for it to be a big deal.

I think part of the reason for this is the structure of the HEC.

Although the structure is really exciting, it's quite possible to be out of contention after the first two weeks of matches (potentially even almost out after just the first match). This means that you get teams with strong domestic leagues completely re focusing their efforts and throwing out second string sides. I wonder if it might be slightly better served if they added another round - so that all group runner ups get to play off for the final two QF spots. Most teams would be in contention for a runner up spot until round 4 or 5 at least.

Amazotheamazing

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

semi professional at best and not really of a high enough standard to play in the HEC. There is rumours that the Russian champions will be invited to the Amlin either next season or the season after

Fully pro league afaik. A modern Russian team would hardly be that far off the standard set by the Italians in the early days? Obviously wouldn't expect them to win it, or even win many games (same as the Italians) but it'd give massive exposure to their teams and players.

Artemyev went from playing in that league to playing for Saints, would be interesting to see what the standard is.

Riskymove

Digifriendly wrote: »

Interesting to check crowds on Rabo Direct 12 website cf with last Christmas. Welsh crowds generally down (Ospreys vs Blues had x2 the no. last year) and increase in Scottish crowds for local derbies.

considering the difference in weather, the declines are even worse

phog

Comparison between League and H/Cup attendances by season.

Season C/L H/C
01/02 258213 656382
02/03 308374 704782
03/04 501875 817833
04/05 470446 918039
05/06 571331 964853
06/07 661163 914048
07/08 609015 942373
08/09 731328 1175057
09/10 818181 1081989
10/11 1019634 1137427
11/12 546253 581855

desertcircus

phog wrote: »

Comparison between League and H/Cup attendances by season.

Season C/L H/C
01/02 258213 656382
02/03 308374 704782
03/04 501875 817833
04/05 470446 918039
05/06 571331 964853
06/07 661163 914048
07/08 609015 942373
08/09 731328 1175057
09/10 818181 1081989
10/11 1019634 1137427
11/12 546253 581855

That's quite encouraging, but I'd love to know if the figures for the Heineken Cup are for Pro12 teams' home games only or for all games. If the former, the Pro12 attendance is decent, but if it's the latter then it's excellent.

phog

desertcircus wrote: »

That's quite encouraging, but I'd love to know if the figures for the Heineken Cup are for Pro12 teams' home games only or for all games. If the former, the Pro12 attendance is decent, but if it's the latter then it's excellent.

Am I reading your post correctly? All games will have a home team, even the finals have a team listed as being the home team.

These are the attendances at the games (including knockout stages and finals).

durkadurka

Hey Phog, I presume these attendances are for all games in the respective compeitition - not just where irish teams were involved?

Worth including the number of games in each comp too - 79 by my reckoning in the HEC vs 132 in the Rabo (90 before last season)

Also I would suspect that for last season approx 50% - 60% of the attendance was for Irish home games in the Rabo.

Riskymove

durkadurka wrote: »

Worth including the number of games in each comp too - 79 by my reckoning in the HEC vs 132 in the Rabo (90 before last season)

Also I would suspect that for last season approx 50% - 60% of the attendance was for Irish home games in the Rabo.

very relevant

as is the fact that PRO 12 was extended 2 seasons ago giving every team two extra home games

phog

durkadurka wrote: »

Hey Phog, I presume these attendances are for all games in the respective compeitition - not just where irish teams were involved?

Worth including the number of games in each comp too - 79 by my reckoning in the HEC vs 132 in the Rabo (90 before last season)

Also I would suspect that for last season approx 50% - 60% of the attendance was for Irish home games in the Rabo.

Yes, All games for each competition.

Season C/L Attendance C/L Games H/C Attendance H/C Games
01/02 258213 52 656382 79
02/03 308374 60 704782 79
03/04 501875 132 817833 79
04/05 470446 110 918039 79
05/06 571331 110 964853 78
06/07 661163 110 914048 79
07/08 609015 90 942373 79
08/09 731328 90 1175057 79
09/10 818181 93 1081989 79
10/11 1019634 135 1137427 79
11/12 546253 71 581855 46

Riskymove

phog wrote: »

Yes, All games for each competition.

Season C/L Attendance C/L Games H/C Attendance H/C Games
01/02 258213 52 656382 79
02/03 308374 60 704782 79
03/04 501875 132 817833 79
04/05 470446 110 918039 79
05/06 571331 110 964853 78
06/07 661163 110 914048 79
07/08 609015 90 942373 79
08/09 731328 90 1175057 79
09/10 818181 93 1081989 79
10/11 1019634 135 1137427 79
11/12 546253 71 581855 46

so the HC average attendance is around double that of the League

Is it just the Rabo? or are English and French leagues included?

EDIT actually it must just be Rabo given numbers

so its still not like for like

phog

Riskymove wrote: »

so the HC average attendance is around double that of the League

Is it just the Rabo? or are English and French leagues included?

EDIT actually it must just be Rabo given numbers

so its still not like for like

Comparison between Rabo and H/C only - it excludes the Amlin as well

Riskymove

phog wrote: »

Comparison between Rabo and H/C only - it excludes the Amlin as well

so the HC figures include ENG and French team games

so the actual difference for Rabo 12 teams is less than first appears; on the overall figures average attendance is doubled in the HC; but its probably a bit less than that

desertcircus

phog wrote: »

Am I reading your post correctly? All games will have a home team, even the finals have a team listed as being the home team.

These are the attendances at the games (including knockout stages and finals).

Apologies, should have been clearer. Wasn't sure whether the figures for the Heineken Cup only included games hosted by a Pro12 team, or whether all games were included in the total. The question has since been answered, so mystery solved.

phog

desertcircus wrote: »

Apologies, should have been clearer. Wasn't sure whether the figures for the Heineken Cup only included games hosted by a Pro12 team, or whether all games were included in the total. The question has since been answered, so mystery solved.

Sorry, in reading back over the posts I realised I misread your post but as you say, all been answered now.:D

Sindri

I would of thought that it's worth quite a bit of money even for just participating.

Slideshowbob

http://www.independent.ie/sport/heineken-cup-looks-doomed-as-english-and-french-clubs-to-press-ahead-with-replacement-29568488.html

So, was I right in my assertions?

Foxtrol

No

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Slideshowbob wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/heineken-cup-looks-doomed-as-english-and-french-clubs-to-press-ahead-with-replacement-29568488.html

So, was I right in my assertions?

No,

It's not a case of the French and English being upset about Irish dominance. It's all about cash

Dick Turnip

And from RTE website
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2013/0910/473413-english-and-french-clubs-break-from-heineken-cup/

English and French clubs are poised to set up a new European competition and bring an end to the Heineken Cup in its current form from the beginning of the 2014/15 season.

The shock development was revealed in a statement released by Premiership Rugby on the Premiershiprugby.com website shortly after 5pm.

The statement said that English clubs had asked Premiership Rugby to put a new competition in place for 2014/15. It said that the new competition will also be open to teams from other countries.

The ‘Paris Accord’, the current agreement between participants in the Heineken Cup which has been in place since 2007, is due to expire after the final of this year’s competition in May.

Negotiations intended to address issues raised by the English and French clubs had been taking place. The last meeting took place in May.

However, there is a scheduled meeting on the issue invovling all stakeholders due to take place at European Rugby Cup (ERC) in Dublin tomorrow.
This evening, French clubs released a near-simultaneous statement confirming their support for the English move.

The dispute centres on qualification criteria and broadcast rights.
French and English clubs want to change the qualification criteria for the Heineken Cup and reduce the number of teams taking part from 20.
Currently, the competition consists of 24 teams with six each from England and France, three each from Ireland and Wales, and two each from Scotland and Italy taking part. The Heineken Cup winner and the Amlin Challenge Cup winner also receive places in the following year’s tournament.

As it stands, each country independently decides how to award its places. Ireland and Wales award theirs on the basis of RaboDirect Pro12 finishing position. Scotland and Italy only have two professional teams and award their places to those teams places automatically.This year, Leinster’s Challenge Cup victory meant Connacht were awarded a place.

Irish provinces have won five of the last eight Heineken Cups. The last English winner was London Wasps, who beat Leicester Tigers in an all-English final in 2006/7.

Broadcast rights agreements are a potential sticking point in negotiations with BT Vision and Sky both involved in the battle to show the competition.
ERC and Sky negotiated a contract extension beyond 2014, but the English clubs say that ERC was not entitled to sign off on that deal.
The English clubs have negotiated a separate deal involving both the domestic English league and European matches with BT Vision.

irishbucsfan

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

No,

It's not a case of the French and English being upset about Irish dominance. It's all about cash

It's not all about cash, that's just a part of it, there are other legitimate concerns with the current state of things. But there's another thread for this.