So fed up with Rogue Installers

tommyh1977

Hi there, probably already done to death but i'm getting really tired of competing with rogue installers in my area at the moment. First my own background, 17 years in the business, first 7 as a bench repair technician repairing and fault finding CRT, VCR, DVD etc to component level. Then went self employed in 2001. However over the last few years so many rogue installers have sprung up around my area. One guy is ex Farm Relief fencing, another guy is ex eircom, yet another is ex Dell. They have no formal qualifications just jumped on the band wagon of the Sky drill 4 holes, mount dish and align until you get loads of beeps, connect box and vanish. They have no insurance, do lots of cash in hand, i know as I loose a lot of work to them as I wont do cash in hand. They are now benefited with the Saorview integrated signal strength indicator built into most of the Saorview equipment, hence no need for a signal strength meter. They carry no safety gear, no test equipment apart from an ebay sat meter. I have gone into so many jobs where they have been to be met with cheapo screw on F connectors on cable too small for them and in return falling off, chimney lashings falling off, co channel interference, an amplifier shoved in where not needed and signal overloading, an Aerial polarised Vertical on a Horizontal TX. I know its the same in most business at the moment but i'm findng it increasingly difficult to compete with these guys as the end user just looks at the bottom line. Hell even one guy is going around insisting you upgrade your UHF aerial to a "digital aerial" WTF!!!

watty

For the odd "difficult" job you need now a spectrum analyser and meter that measures "BER", much more expensive. Because as you know you could have great signal STRENGTH but very poor "quality" for some reason.

I agree. That's why I put a fair bit of voluntary effort into helping ISAA www.isaa.tv and created www.saortv.info before RTE put any content on their site.

It's a pity that RTE politics meant they had to "approve" three "professional" trade bodies for Aerial & Dish installation. It's normal for a Country to have only one. In reality there is only one, as one listed is really the UK association and the other a general Trade body without any background in Broadcast Engineering.

Only one guy promoting digital aerials? Sure aren't the shops full of them


For the Consumer:
There is no such thing as a Digital Amplifier or Digital Aerial for TV. The actual digital information is coded onto an analogue like signal transmitted in the same band as TV3 and TG4.


Proper Digital Terrestrial and Digital Satellite install, insuring there is a good margin for variation of transmitted signal (Satellite power drops with age, Terrestrial powers can be reduced), weather, ageing aerial/dish, increasing attenuation in cables & connectors with age requires MORE expertise and more expensive equipment than Analogue Terrestrial or Analogue Satellite where any interference of loss of signal is visible as a change in picture quality.

All Digital transmission has FEC (Forward Error Correction, though perhaps only 10% on cable), up to 50% of the transmission on some robust satellite channels. This means up to a certain point all noise and interference is "hidden". There is a narrow band where the picture is coarser and poorer quality with rapid movement, then a narrow band of level where there is obvious pixelation and then intermittent "freezing" before the reception is lost.

The "Rogue" installer assumes a "clear" picture means everything is OK, when in fact a slight change in weather, transmission power, start up of a Tetra mast, new GSM mast, extra interference from fridge compressor (or other source), co-channel during "lift" (wrong polarity or direction of aerial, or too strong an aerial) or ageing of components makes the signal "fall off the cliff" and there is severe pixlation, intermittent freezing or no signal.

This also why I don't care HOW MANY people claim "good reception" on an Internal Aerial aka "Rabbit's Ears" as they can't tell how good it is and it's not a proper survey. The system is simply not designed for Mobile use (whip on portable TV) or significant use of Indoor aerials. There would need to be FAR more transmitters. (There are limits on the power of existing sites due to co-channel interference, and many locations need a roof aerial as there is no power level that would give a clean signal at ground level indoors. Studies show that a Roof top Fixed Aerial system is 8x to x16 more efficient than one designed for Mobile use. An indoor "rabbit's ear" is equivalent to "mobile").

FRIENDO

Hi tommyh1977,

If you believe these people are working for cash in hand inform the Revenue Commissioner. Revenue will also follow up on Social Welfare if this is the case. (You can ask the Revenue about keeping your confidentiality)
If possible give name's, addresses even a vehicle reg should be good enough, if they have any advertising add all the better.
You could email or write possibly even phone, however
It might be best to make an appointment with a Revenue officer on the matter.
Explain how your businness is being affected finiancialy and how it is causing you this stress. (It would be unfair to think a law abiding person like yourself is being cheated like this)
I would also explain the story of the guy trying to push aerials in a dishonest manner. (This could be taking advantage of the elderly or vulnerable people financially)

If these guys are legit then they have nothing to worry about however if they are not legit then the Revenue and other Governement agency's will deal with the matter.

Best of Luck.

Farls

How can a Joe Soap tell the difference between one of these chancers and a qualified technician? Bar getting them in to fit something that basically isn't up to standard and figuring that out after the damage is done!

kbell

Farls wrote: »

How can a Joe Soap tell the difference between one of these chancers and a qualified technician? Bar getting them in to fit something that basically isn't up to standard and figuring that out after the damage is done!

Thats what the ISAA are trying to achieve.

Farls

Is there any website with registered technicians available in the different area's at the moment or is that a work in progress?

watty

www.isaa.tv

tommyh1977

The other thing I find amusing is Saorview are clamping down on people using their logo without authorisation, still I see vans everyday with logos stuck all over them. Saorview are also on Facebook along with at least 10 other installers using the Saorview Logo as their profile pic!!

Dougal.

Farls wrote: »

Is there any website with registered technicians available in the different area's at the moment or is that a work in progress?

There are 3 recognised Bodies who have registered installers in Ireland on their website's

http://www.cai.org.uk/component/content/article/474
http://www.nationalguild.ie/
http://www.isaa.tv/isaamap.htm

watty

CAI is UK.
National Guild are great lads, but no background in Broadcast Engineering.

There are 3, because RTE internal guidelines means there has to be at least 3.

Dougal.

watty wrote: »

There are 3, .

Thats the thing Watty there are 3 not Just 1 the ISAA. I know you and some of the other guys here are involved with the ISAA. But to be Fair the 3 recognised bodies should be mentioned when a poster asks for a recommendation on an installer not just the ISAA mentioned by 1 of its members. A sticky should be made with the 3 recognised bodies details listed on it.

watty

I have never got a cent from the ISAA. I promote it and help it because it's the ONLY organisation that has ever done anything for Aerial & Dish install standards here and it's the ONLY IRISH organisation especially for TV & Satellite Install standards.

The UK CAI for all of its many years of existence in UK never did anything in Ireland other than collect money and have occasional Open Day. They are very good. For the UK.

In regards of TV & Satellite the National Guild has never done anything. They a wide based Tradesman organisation, RTE picked them purely to have a 3rd name. That's the reality.

I do list all three on my site www.saortv.info and they are clearly listed on RTE's www.saorview.ie

If someone is asking about Cable TV should I give them information that Virgin does Cable TV?

Lots of "professions" only have a single body setting standards and issuing lists of recommended and vetted practitioners.

Dougal.

Watty I never said you got paid.

Like it or not. Or compare the 3.
The fact is that they are 3 APPROVED Bodies by RTE/Saorview

All I said that is every time a person comes here and asks for a recommendation on a approved installer the ISAA are mentioned. To me that gives an Impression that there is only 1 recognised body.

My point here is that RTE/Saorview have listed 3 recognised bodies for approval of installers. And again I say that to be fair the 3 bodies should be mentioned not just the ISAA when a poster comes here looking for an installer.

watty

That logic only applies if you work for RTE!

Yes, all three are recognised but ONLY by RTE. But only one is an Irish body for Satellite Dish and Aerial installations.

Dougal.

watty wrote: »

Yes, all three are recognised but ONLY by RTE. .

Thats the whole point they are 3 recognised bodies. RTE/Saorview approve of the 3 regardless of there backgrounds or whether they have other interests.

A unassuming poster should not be led to believe that there is only 1 when he/she asks here on these terrestrial threads the contact details for a legitimate installer.

St Senan

tommyh1977 wrote: »

Hi there, probably already done to death but i'm getting really tired of competing with rogue installers in my area at the moment. First my own background, 17 years in the business, first 7 as a bench repair technician repairing and fault finding CRT, VCR, DVD etc to component level. Then went self employed in 2001. However over the last few years so many rogue installers have sprung up around my area. One guy is ex Farm Relief fencing, another guy is ex eircom, yet another is ex Dell. They have no formal qualifications just jumped on the band wagon of the Sky drill 4 holes, mount dish and align until you get loads of beeps, connect box and vanish. They have no insurance, do lots of cash in hand, i know as I loose a lot of work to them as I wont do cash in hand. They are now benefited with the Saorview integrated signal strength indicator built into most of the Saorview equipment, hence no need for a signal strength meter. They carry no safety gear, no test equipment apart from an ebay sat meter. I have gone into so many jobs where they have been to be met with cheapo screw on F connectors on cable too small for them and in return falling off, chimney lashings falling off, co channel interference, an amplifier shoved in where not needed and signal overloading, an Aerial polarised Vertical on a Horizontal TX. I know its the same in most business at the moment but i'm findng it increasingly difficult to compete with these guys as the end user just looks at the bottom line. Hell even one guy is going around insisting you upgrade your UHF aerial to a "digital aerial" WTF!!!

Tommy if you think that is bad you should try and work down here in Wexford. 12 years ago when I moved back here to work there was about 8 or 9 of us installers/riggers advertising Aerials and Dishes. we all kinda new each other trough the wholesalers and so on some of us even passed on work to each other especially around the Xmas time. Now a days the county is over run with so called SKY digital and Satellite Engineers. The Business has been destroyed since 2008 when Wales switched over to digital.

Regarding Saorview and their logo. Its seems quite clear that RTE don't give two hoots about who is abusing the saorview logo. They are not stupid they know its going on and are not doing a thing to stop it.

Listed on the Saorview site of registered retailers here in Wexford is a Hardware shop and a Sky Sales outlet.

St Senan

Regarding the setting up of Recognised bodies for approval of installers.

This should have been done here years ago. Sky Digital went big here in 1999-2000 the two big contract companies Sierra and Finlays back then ran 2 -3 days crash courses on installing dishes and then let these so called engineers out in public with shag all experience in working at heights and dealing with the public . Over the years Sky became more popular and the price of an install became cheaper that's why the majority of the experienced Installers/Riggers don't install sky. Nowadays you have guys who installed sky on a cheap rate who have the gear (albeit for astra 28) now seeing a chance to make quick money installing Aerials. Or unemployed Electricians buying the gear from wholesalers Installing for cheap money and still drawing the dole. Before I get attacked by IT guys or Electricians This is happening Simple as. I said before and now it is happening that Aerials are popping up stuck on upturned Sky wall brackets on the front , side and back of houses. I do believe that there should have been only 1 aerial trade body back then. The likes of Armstrong's would have been the Type of company to set this up and have all the Aerial riggers united. But we have 3 recognised Bodies set-up here the 3 of them are trying to do the same Job and that is show the public that there are Installers who are Legit, carry insurance and pay tax and provide a receipt with proper contact details. All though the CAI seem to have only a handful of members here in the Republic.

tommyh1977

Yes it's true any installer worth his salt is very reluctant to work for the low Sky installation rate, unless they are fortunate like a buddy of mine to be an ASA as well and have the commission on top of install. You mentioned Sierra and their 3 day crash course, have a look at this. http://www.chevrontraining.ie/satellitetvinstallercourses/index.html

Note they are offering FETAC Level 5 in Cabling & Pre Installation Techniques. Here is the official breakdown of that qualification. http://www.fetac.ie/doc/WelcomeServlet?DocId=0901df9e80001f95

Not once on that document do I see the word Saorview or Satellite!!!

So basically they have turned a "Cable Pulling" course around and advertised it as Saorview to generate interest from those jumping on the band wagon:mad:

St Senan

tommyh1977 wrote: »

Yes it's true any installer worth his salt is very reluctant to work for the low Sky installation rate, unless they are fortunate like a buddy of mine to be an ASA as well and have the commission on top of install. You mentioned Sierra and their 3 day crash course, have a look at this. http://www.chevrontraining.ie/satellitetvinstallercourses/index.html

Note they are offering FETAC Level 5 in Cabling & Pre Installation Techniques. Here is the official breakdown of that qualification. http://www.fetac.ie/doc/WelcomeServlet?DocId=0901df9e80001f95

Not once on that document do I see the word Saorview or Satellite!!!

So basically they have turned a "Cable Pulling" course around and advertised it as Saorview to generate interest from those jumping on the band wagon:mad:

Tommy have you seen what county Chevron Training are based in.
I have 1st hand experience of their crash course installers work.
RTE/Saorview know about Chevron Training and this course and have done nothing to stop them from making money on the use of the word Saorview to promote a crash training course on Aerials and Dishes.

ISAA

Before I get jumped on.
The ISAA team WILL be doing Professional Satellite Aerial courses in the next few months or so.

We already have a proper training centre, which will be kitted out with all the required equipment. (In Dublin)

The course will be run by experienced trainers, who have over 30 years in domestic and commercial side of Satellite/aerial installations.

The course will include HSA training, with working at height also.

We are one of three recognized Associations by Saorview, but the only one with
board members involved in the day to day of this business, and only Associated with the satellite/Aerial business.

St Senan

Gerry what certification comes with that course you are running.
Also what is your opinion on this Chevron Training courses.
And before we get posters jumping on this I am Asking Gerry as a fellow installer I am not asking the whole board of the ISAA.

tommyh1977

scaller wrote: »

Tommy have you seen what county Chevron Training are based in.
I have 1st hand experience of their crash course installers work.
RTE/Saorview know about Chevron Training and this course and have done nothing to stop them from making money on the use of the word Saorview to promote a crash training course on Aerials and Dishes.

Oh ya just see that connection now, you really got the S**t end of the stick down there in the south-east.:D

@ISAA I really support what you are doing to try and regulate the industry and without trying to sound condescending........In 2005 the Alarm industry in Ireland was regulated with the introduction of the PSA. Up until then I used to do Alarm Installation as part of my overall business but with the crazy fee structure charged by the PSA for the small operator I weighed up whether or not it was viable to licence and decided it was not as margins were tight on Alarms. I stopped doing Alarms and have done absolutely none since. However I know from licenced colleagues who are thinking of going unlicenced, the PSA are doing nothing to pursue rogue Alarm installers. I just feel in this country the more you screw the system the more you benefit, thats in all aspects of life. The rogue / cowboy whatever we call them will always survive, all we can do is try and make things more difficult for them. I have adopted the attitude that any chancer who cuts my business and is not squeaky clean will find himself with a revenue and social welfare problem.:P

ISAA

Also what is your opinion on this Chevron Training courses ?

A joke, there first brochure included installation of water pipes, with satellite TV.
(Maybe waveguide course)

I don't want to give to much away yet, as we are very close to finalizing our standards with the required standards, but the course will be covering what should be included, technical, Installation satellite equipment, aerial equipment,safety, HSA, working at height.
And we won't be using fetec as they have to get there own house in order first.

St Senan

ISAA wrote: »

Also what is your opinion on this Chevron Training courses ?

A joke, there first brochure included installation of water pipes, with satellite TV.
(Maybe waveguide course)

yes I was the 1 who linked that brochure. I was told by a fiend of mine that this chevron training was quizzed by a local long term installer as to why they are Jumping on the saorview bandwagon. He was told by the guy in charge that what Chevron training is doing is not against the law as the Aerial trade is Not regulated.

ISAA

The rogue / cowboy whatever we call them will always survive, all we can do is try and make things more difficult for them. I have adopted the attitude that any chancer who cuts my business and is not squeaky clean will find himself with a revenue and social welfare problem.

There will be a major change in the next few weeks, in relation to recognized ISAA professional Installers.(for the good)
The general public will see the difference, between professional installers and the non approved installer, and they may even have there name free of charge on the www.

tommyh1977

AFAIK they also jumped on the water meter installation band wagon!!

ISAA

tommyh1977 wrote: »

AFAIK they also jumped on the water meter installation band wagon!!

Goes to show what a bunch of cowboys.

St Senan

ISAA wrote: »

There will be a major change in the next few weeks, in relation to recognized ISAA professional Installers.(for the good)
The general public will see the difference, between professional installers and the non approved installer, and they may even have there name free of charge on the www.

Gerry I agree with you there but this whole process of Saorview and the Approval of installers and Registered retailers has been A BIG COCK UP on RTE's behalf. Regardless of a decant installer paying PL insurance, TAX, a registration fee to any of the 3 Bodies and yearly membership. We are still competing against a black economy. Even in a few weeks time there is nothing going to stop a double jobber or DIY/chancer from going into his local electrical wholesaler, market stall, on-line retailer that sells to the public and buying cheap gear. (Maybe unapproved Combo boxes) and making a quick cash in hand job supplying and installing from between €60-€100 less than a legit installer. The equipment approved and non approved has become to widely available these days.

Digifriendly

scaller wrote: »

Tommy if you think that is bad you should try and work down here in Wexford. 12 years ago when I moved back here to work there was about 8 or 9 of us installers/riggers advertising Aerials and Dishes. we all kinda new each other trough the wholesalers and so on some of us even passed on work to each other especially around the Xmas time. Now a days the county is over run with so called SKY digital and Satellite Engineers. The Business has been destroyed since 2008 when Wales switched over to digital.

Just out of interest why did business suffer after DSO in Wales?

St Senan

Digifriendly wrote: »

Just out of interest why did business suffer after DSO in Wales?

The county was flooded ( I mean flooded with guys even from Dublin and Cork putting up flyers around Co Wexford) with so called installers flogging cheap FTA installs for €150 to people along the coast who could receive the British analogue channels on Aerial and then after ASO in 2008 these people were duped into buying these FTA installs to get their BBC and ITV's back and were never told that these receivers would need constant retuning.

miller50841

I know off point a bit but if youy get sky in they only throw the cable up and in lots of cases wont run through certain areas of your house inide or out

FRIENDO

scaller wrote: »

The county was flooded ( I mean flooded with guys even from Dublin and Cork putting up flyers around Co Wexford) with so called installers flogging cheap FTA installs for €150 to people along the coast who could receive the British analogue channels on Aerial and then after ASO in 2008 these people were duped into buying these FTA installs to get their BBC and ITV's back and were never told that these receivers would need constant retuning.

Some of these guys could never be traced or contacted again if something went wrong and who knows what type of background (Criminal background) they may have come from. (They could well be sizing up your property or family)

Luckily and thankfully for the ISAA I believe background checks are carried out and all work and Installers are traceable.
I would hope that the two other bodies also follow suit.

St Senan

FRIENDO wrote: »

Some of these guys could never be traced or contacted again if something went wrong and who knows what type of background (Criminal background) they may have come from. (They could well be sizing up your property or family)

Luckily and thankfully for the ISAA I believe background checks are carried out and all work and Installers are traceable.
I would hope that the two other bodies also follow suit.

The majority of these guys are not going to drive back from Dublin, Wicklow,Carlow,Kildare and Cork to retune a cheap FTA receiver that was sold to Mrs Murphy in Curracloe Co Wexford because she lost her English channels, When Wales switched over and she was duped into buying a cheap free to air install from 1 of these so called engineers and now Mrs Murphy has a receiver that has lost about 70% of the channels on it. She now cant contact or get any good of this so called engineer. So Mrs Murphy is now convinced that she bought a Pig in a Poke and that a 1 off payment system is a complete rip off and she is now spreading the word around.
Word of Mouth is also BAD for Business.

A while ago the so called biggest SUPREME supplier of FTA systems in Ireland arrived in Co Wexford from Cork he flooded the county with cheap home-made flyers promising the customers premium movies and premium sport with out the monthly bill. He got some non Nationals guys in Wexford to do the Installs. (if you could call them installs). He is now gone thanks to word of Mouth, Cupcakes and Boards.ie and has left a large amount of disgruntled customers all over the county.

Regarding background checks on all work and Installers being traceable. The 3 bodies would have not been approved if this was not the case.

Tony

I'm not so sure of that Scaller, the approval of the "guild of master craftsmen" has seriously devalued the installer approval process in my view.

scaller wrote: »

Regarding background checks on all work and Installers being traceable. The 3 bodies would have not been approved if this was not the case.

watty

It's a pity RTE internal rules demanded three approvals.

Tony

watty wrote: »

It's a pity RTE internal rules demanded three approvals.

Indeed, it may have been better if they approved no one.

Premier

tommyh1977 wrote: »

Hi there, probably already done to death but i'm getting really tired of competing with rogue installers in my area at the moment. First my own background, 17 years in the business, first 7 as a bench repair technician repairing and fault finding CRT, VCR, DVD etc to component level. Then went self employed in 2001. However over the last few years so many rogue installers have sprung up around my area. One guy is ex Farm Relief fencing, another guy is ex eircom, yet another is ex Dell. They have no formal qualifications just jumped on the band wagon of the Sky drill 4 holes, mount dish and align until you get loads of beeps, connect box and vanish. They have no insurance, do lots of cash in hand, i know as I loose a lot of work to them as I wont do cash in hand. They are now benefited with the Saorview integrated signal strength indicator built into most of the Saorview equipment, hence no need for a signal strength meter. They carry no safety gear, no test equipment apart from an ebay sat meter. I have gone into so many jobs where they have been to be met with cheapo screw on F connectors on cable too small for them and in return falling off, chimney lashings falling off, co channel interference, an amplifier shoved in where not needed and signal overloading, an Aerial polarised Vertical on a Horizontal TX. I know its the same in most business at the moment but i'm findng it increasingly difficult to compete with these guys as the end user just looks at the bottom line. Hell even one guy is going around insisting you upgrade your UHF aerial to a "digital aerial" WTF!!!

It's Like this,
Trade Suppliers selling their products to people outside of the trade at trade prices without checking their registered for tax,

Newspapers taking money from people advertising a business without a simple tax registration form and ID, (only to be provided once)

Websites doing the same as newspapers, just look at donesteal fta systems for 150 screweuros , (dishes must be falling of back of sky lorries at that price),

And last but not least
The Government Complaining the country is ****ked "we have no money" and wont go after the billions in lost revenue through blackmarket economy.
It's not just the tv trade being affected but lot of other trades men too,

Rant over

St Senan

Tony wrote: »

I'm not so sure of that Scaller, the approval of the "guild of master craftsmen" has seriously devalued the installer approval process in my view.

Having 3 bodies I think is complete madness. As I have said earlier there should have been a 1 regulatory body set-up years ago to register installers around the time when Sky Digital became big.

There seems to be over 35 registered installers with the Guild.
The CAI have only 7 registered installers in the republic.

RTE have made a complete cock up with this Saorview Approval process. Sky Kiosks and Hardware shops approved retailers. The Biggest cock up was a Few months ago when the Ex head of Sky marketing in Ireland set-up a so called on-line retailer shop and he was immediately approved as a retailer to sell Saorview receivers and then this company/Shop was caught out on the Radio selling Saorview door to door and this company/Shop is still listed as registered retailer.

tommyh1977

scaller wrote: »

Having 3 bodies I think is complete madness. As I have said earlier there should have been a 1 regulatory body set-up years ago to register installers around the time when Sky Digital became big.

There seems to be over 35 registered installers with the Guild.
The CAI have only 7 registered installers in the republic.

RTE have made a complete cock up with this Saorview Approval process. Sky Kiosks and Hardware shops approved retailers. The Biggest cock up was a Few months ago when the Ex head of Sky marketing in Ireland set-up a so called on-line retailer shop and he was immediately approved as a retailer to sell Saorview receivers and then this company/Shop was caught out on the Radio selling Saorview door to door and this company/Shop is still listed as registered retailer.

I asked for approval a few months back as along with install work i also take stands at fairs, christmas markets. I was told no approval as this was not considered retail. But the local hardware who are purchasing through a buying group can be approved, even though none of the staff have the faintest idea what Saorview is WTF???

St Senan

We were more less told by RTE/Saorview at a trade seminar that the only Saorview approved receivers can be sold through Registered Electrical Retailers.
So how can a Hardware shop and a Sky Kiosk be Electrical retailers.

watty

scaller wrote: »

Having 3 bodies I think is complete madness. As I have said earlier there should have been a 1 regulatory body set-up years ago to register installers around the time when Sky Digital Analogue became big.

[My edit to Scaller's post! ]

Actually should have been created in 1950s when big masts went up for BBC Reception. It was even discussed bringing in a TV licence then. As it was the TV licence started 4 months before RTE (31st December 1962, in reality 50 years ago this week).

So we are nearly 50 years late doing anything.

Missed Dates:

• BBC Reception in Ireland (Wales 1952?, N.I. 1954?)
• ITV Reception in Ireland (1955)
• RTE TV launch (Dec 1961)
• RTE VHF-FM Launch (1962?)
• RTE 2nd TV channel Launch (1978?)
• Growth of so called Deflectors (major Limerick/Clare/Kerry Retailers met in I think 1983 or 1984 to discuss a Major legalised Deflector Network. Talks failed)
• MMDS rollout
• TG4 Launch (TnaG, long before TV3)
• Sky Analogue Launch
• BBC Prime Launched (Sub was available in Ireland and not UK, not on Sky at all ever)
• 1999 RTE DTT Trials
• Sky Digital Launch
• RTE DAB Launch
• BT/DCNER "political" East coast DTT Trial
• First RTE Tests of current System Dec 2007?
• Public confirmation of Saorview Spec Feb/March 2008

St Senan

watty wrote: »

[My edit to Scaller's post! ]

Actually should have been created in 1950s when big masts went up for BBC Reception. It was even discussed bringing in a TV licence then. As it was the TV licence started 4 months before RTE (31st December 1962, in reality 50 years ago this week).

So we are nearly 50 years late doing anything.

Showing your age now Watty.:):)

The Latest that this should have been done was in 1999-2000 when Sky DIGITAL became big in Ireland it was around the same time that Van Drivers, Painters, Roofers and Tilers were given a 2-3 day crash course on fitting dishes from the 2 big Contract Install companies.

watty

Yes, it should have been well established 12 years ago.

BostonB

How does the customer avoid a rogue installer.

St Senan

BostonB wrote: »

How does the customer avoid a rogue installer.

A genuine installer would be local to the area and well known in the area.
He probably would have a photo ID in his van.
He would have all the right equipment to complete a job.
He would carry PL insurance and have a copy of this in his Van.
He would be able to provide you with a receipt when the job is finished.
He would Provide contact details not just a mobile phone number.
He probably would advertise in the Local newspapers and Golden-pages with his full name not just his forename. Not on a cheap home-made flyer stuck up on a shop notice board.
He would probably be known to your local electrical retail shop.
And this year he might have joined 1 of the 3 recognised Bodies that Saorview mention on their website.

A genuine Installer would have a lot to lose if he wasn't a decant guy. After all if he does a good job he relies on word of mouth to get him more work.

FRIENDO

BostonB wrote: »

How does the customer avoid a rogue installer.

http://www.isaa.tv/isaamap.htm

I believe a customer should contact the above people for an honest quality and fair deal price.

I also believe the ISAA should be supported more by RTENL (possible licence fee money) in advertising to the public in a hope that this could save the public from being had by Rogue traders.
We all got a Saorview bucklet with our tv licence renewal an extra add/leaflet should have been added, in relation to highlighting the recogonised installing bodies.

Every day we hear about people getting cheated by Rogue installers from news papers, Garda warnings, Internet and word of mouth.

Its time for the public to be protected.

cast_iron

FRIENDO wrote: »

http://www.isaa.tv/isaamap.htm

I believe a customer should contact the above people for an honest quality and fair deal price.

I agree with all comments that regulation should have been done years ago.
And despite RTE approving 3 bodies, only one (ISAA) appears to have to have a real interest in providing the Irish public with a credible list of installers, and offers installers some proof that an approved standard has been reached.

As for RTE reasons, I assume it's that since there is no statutory regulatory body, therefore they are effectively private members clubs, which isn't exactly ideal, but it is a start.

It can lead to potential conflicts of interest, where certain members may get preferential treatment, commercial arguments, a falling out, etc. And as they are effectively a private club, they can do as they please and there is little comeback. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting for one second this has or is going on currently. I'm stating that it's a setup that lends itself to this possibility.

As a small example, the only brand ISAA openly endorses appears to be Triax. A look at the ISAA homepage has a link to "ISAA and Triax". I understand that product reviews appear to be part of the ISAA setup and commend such a move. While we all know Triax are a top brand, why no others? Are triax sponsoring the ISAA in some way?
For similar reasons RTE offers 3 bodies (so as not to be seen to give any private setup a monopoly), a regulatory body shouldn't be seen to endorse one only one manufacturer.

FRIENDO

Yes, I did read the review on the Triax saorview approved STB and I also believed this was a positive move on behalf of the ISAA.
I also wondered why no other brand was reviewed - I presumed other approved brands may be reviewed in the future. (They may not want to clog up the site with to many reviews either)

Also in relation to the Triax Tri link I could not find any price guide for the item.

In the future I do believe it is a step forward for the public to read reviews of the approved products (Saorview/Freesat) from the ISAA/recognised body, this can only help the public in getting the best equipment within customer budget before they go contacting Installers/Registered retailers.

watty

Personally I don't think ISAA should do reviews generally, only "black list" incompatible, dangerous or useless product.

This is a personal opinion.

Even on Techtír I'm unhappy with any more reviews as I think any review should include objective lab tests for safety and compliance with claimed performance rather than subjective comments about appearance. So I think no more reviews on Techtír till I figure a solution.

www.saortv.info has a "Black List", that kind of thing on ISAA covering things to Definitely NOT install outdoors and recommending they only be for attic. But to do equivalent of CAI aerial (or Dish) approvals the ISAA would need to use an Aerial test range and test gear it hasn't got (yet!).

Tony

I fully agree Watty

watty wrote: »

Personally I don't think ISAA should do reviews generally, only "black list" incompatible, dangerous or useless product.

FRIENDO

If it doesn’t have this logo, it’s not approved and may not work.
With the SAORVIEW badge underneath

I seen this on the above attached Saorfree site "Black List"

This is possibly the best and simplest piece of advice for the public.
Maybe also keeping it simple is the best route to go.