Is It Time To Remove Race From The Census??

SharpshooterTom

Does anyone now think it's time to remove race from the census and all government documents??

I think we should. I mean come on, it's been argued that we will all become mixed race eventually, probably within 100 years or so in countries like Britain.

The terms white, black, asian, mixed race etc are very archaic. There is no such thing as race, it should be omitted from society completely. I don't recognise mixed race people as mixed race simply because the human race is already one to begin with, so IMO, there are no mixed race people.

Like I say the world is becoming beige shortly and race is dying out anyway. Is it time we removed all these racial labels??

Balfie

no, I like to see who's fastest in my family..

kincsem

Gnobe wrote: »

I mean come on,

That wins any argument ...

flutterflye

We are all mixed race if you go back a few generations (8 or 16, or something like that, I don't remember)
Did it in psychology, although I don't remember the facts anymore.

No, I don't see why we would remove it tbh.

dxhound2005

Gnobe wrote: »

Does anyone now think it's time to remove race from the census and all government documents??

I think we should. I mean come on, it's been argued that we will all become mixed race eventually, probably within 100 years or so in countries like Britain.

The terms white, black, asian, mixed race etc are very archaic. There is no such thing as race, it should be omitted from society completely. I don't recognise mixed race people as mixed race simply because the human race is already one to begin with, so IMO, there are no mixed race people.

Like I say the world is becoming beige shortly and race is dying out anyway. Is it time we removed all these racial labels??

Every other country records these statictics. Why shouldn't we?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ei.html

El Weirdo

Gnobe wrote: »

Does anyone now think it's time to remove race from the census and all government documents??

I think we should. I mean come on, it's been argued that we will all become mixed race eventually, probably within 100 years or so in countries like Britain.

The terms white, black, asian, mixed race etc are very archaic. There is no such thing as race, it should be omitted from society completely. I don't recognise mixed race people as mixed race simply because the human race is already one to begin with, so IMO, there are no mixed race people.

Like I say the world is becoming beige shortly and race is dying out anyway. Is it time we removed all these racial labels??

If you really believe that, I think you should go back and edit your OP and omit all of the labels you used.

Go on.

Kevin Duffy

Then people would rightly complain that their various origins weren't being considered and recognised. People have a right to have that recorded if they want to, besides the actual usefulness of the information.

Maybe what needs to change is the mindset that recognising people's differences is seen as a negative thing.

SharpshooterTom

flutterflye wrote: »

We are all mixed race if you go back a few generations (8 or 16, or something like that, I don't remember)
Did it in psychology, although I don't remember the facts anymore.

No, I don't see why we would remove it tbh.

So your basically saying it's ok to ask whether people are white or black on census forms? Even though we're all mixed race anyway?

Thanks for proving my point about how silly it is then.

So like I say it's a stupid concept, very archaic and completely outdated. It just makes us a very race conscious society.

Mike 1972

Ive generally refuse to answer (or give meaninglessly vauge answers to) questions about race and religion particularly on documents issued by the government.

Its none of their damn business.

juan.kerr

OP, you may consider yourself mixed race but I don't consider myself to be and I don't plan to become mixed race in the near future.

SharpshooterTom

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Every other country records these statictics. Why shouldn't we?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ei.html

They don't in most european countries. Infact collecting information on race is completely banned in France, nobody knows exactly how many black people there are, or muslims etc.

juan.kerr

Gnobe wrote: »

They don't in most european countries. Infact collecting information on race is completely banned in France, nobody knows exactly how many black people there are, or muslims etc.

And you probably think that's a good thing.

So called 'Integration' has failed in europe, why do we persist in claiming otherwise?

dxhound2005

Gnobe wrote: »

They don't in most european countries. Infact collecting information on race is completely banned in France, nobody knows exactly how many black people there are, or muslims etc.

If you live in Omagh you needn't concern yourself with what people in the Republic of Ireland are asked on our census form. And people in the Republic shouldn't worry about what you are being asked for in the UK census.

SharpshooterTom

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If you live in Omagh you needn't concern yourself with what people in the Republic of Ireland are asked on our census form. And people in the Republic shouldn't worry about what you are being asked for in the UK census.

So does it bother you that France, Holland, Scandinavia etc don't record race then? I think it's a pretty good idea.

I lived in Monaghan till last year.

Freddie59

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If you live in Omagh you needn't concern yourself with what people in the Republic of Ireland are asked on our census form. And people in the Republic shouldn't worry about what you are being asked for in the UK census.

And your point is.......?

keith16

Gnobe wrote: »

Does anyone now think it's time to remove race from the census and all government documents??

I think we should. I mean come on, it's been argued that we will all become mixed race eventually, probably within 100 years or so in countries like Britain.

The terms white, black, asian, mixed race etc are very archaic. There is no such thing as race, it should be omitted from society completely. I don't recognise mixed race people as mixed race simply because the human race is already one to begin with, so IMO, there are no mixed race people.

Like I say the world is becoming beige shortly and race is dying out anyway. Is it time we removed all these racial labels??

It's been argued by who?

Countries like Britain? So we should adopt policy here in Ireland right now based on something that's been argued will probably happen in 100 years?

Where is the evidence for the world becoming 'beige'? Is this not a label in itself?

Your post is bewildering on so many levels, with the bolded parts a complete contradiction.

Race is a fact of life, but you suggest we just ignore it on the basis of the world probably becoming 'beige'. What does beige even mean? Can you describe what a beige person look like?

Why are the words used to describe race 'outdated'?

juan.kerr

keith16 wrote: »

Can you describe what a beige person look like?

Some shade of ... eh... beige? Usual crap from PC brigade.

SharpshooterTom

keith16 wrote: »

Your post is bewildering on so many levels, with the bolded parts a complete contradiction.

I have to use it the basis that everyone else uses it, but I rather I didn't of course. So yes I recognise I'm a hypocrite but believe that we need to remove racial labels in the context of society to help live a less race conscious society IMO. I would prefer the whole world to be like that.

If the human race is supposed to be 'one' like everyone says it is then why do we need them? I just hear this phrase "there is no white race, no black race, just the human race". So therefore aren't these race labels all meaningless??

dxhound2005

Gnobe wrote: »

They don't in most european countries. Infact collecting information on race is completely banned in France, nobody knows exactly how many black people there are, or muslims etc.

How is Muslim relevant to your argument? You didn't mention religion in your orignal post.

keith16

Gnobe wrote: »

I have to use it the basis that everyone else uses it, but I rather I didn't of course. So yes I recognise I'm a hypocrite but believe that we need to remove racial labels in the context of society to help live a less race conscious society IMO. I would prefer the whole world to be like that.

If the human race is supposed to be 'one' like everyone says it is then why do we need them? I just hear this phrase "there is no white race, no black race, just the human race". So therefore aren't these race labels all meaningless??

If you want to effect change in society, it's best you change how you say things and attempt to influence others to change their thinking / behaviour. Not 'I have to use these terms cos everyone else does'.

The fact is that there is a human race but there will always be distinct ethnic groups and sub-groups. e.g. Caucasian - European - Slavic.

It's wrong to suggest these terms are 'stupid', it would be like saying, all the animals should be recognised as one and we shouldn't label them with terms describing distinct species. The world is an incredibly diverse place and terms like these exist because they are useful in describing that diversity.

SharpshooterTom

dxhound2005 wrote: »

How is Muslim relevant to your argument? You didn't mention religion in your orignal post.

No but its relevant to France who I mentioned earlier. In addition to race they don't record religion either, something else which is also a good idea.

Honest opinion

Gnobe wrote: »

Does anyone now think it's time to remove race from the census and all government documents??

I think we should. I mean come on, it's been argued that we will all become mixed race eventually, probably within 100 years or so in countries like Britain.

The terms white, black, asian, mixed race etc are very archaic. There is no such thing as race, it should be omitted from society completely. I don't recognise mixed race people as mixed race simply because the human race is already one to begin with, so IMO, there are no mixed race people.

Like I say the world is becoming beige shortly and race is dying out anyway. Is it time we removed all these racial labels??

Yeah you must realy know Britain well everyone sort of a lovely peachy color and everyone integrates lovely theres no seperate communities at all

Also the world is going beige????? are YOU HIGH?

Micky Dolenz

I agree.

Who needs to know race. The census form should come with a colour chart. Tick the box of the colour you are most like.

gsxr1

Remove it everywhere except Naas.
The council likes to keep an eye on the black lads around there.

Turtyturd

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I agree.

Who needs to know race. The census form should come with a colour chart. Tick the box of the colour you are most like.

Just imagine the Adrian Kennedy phone show in the weeks after the Census..."me burd held the colour chart yoke up to the little rugrat and her colour didn' match mine...she can' be mine Adrian."

Anyway...we should swap the race question with an income question...I wanna know how much other people make.

Mike 1972

Not sure why we even still have a census in this day and age given all the info therein is stuff the government either should know already (through Tax, Social Welfare etc records) or is none of their damn business.

Ive often doubted the assurances regarding confidentiality too although Ive been tempted to put it to the test by giving "drug dealer" for my occupation.

And this 100 year rule is a load of bolix. Nobody should have their personal details published while theyre still alive.

Gnobe wrote: »

No but its relevant to France who I mentioned earlier. In addition to race they don't record religion either, something else which is also a good idea.

I suspect that in some EU mainland countries certain historical events might have impressed on people why having centeralised individual records of the racial and/or religious background of the population might not be a terribly good idea ?

Faith+1

Oh no a future of Goobacks

imitation

I think the information is generally useful to have, the whole point of the census is to get information to see what demands there might be. There is also the fact the information will prove to be very useful historically to trace population changes.

Ellis Dee

One of the first things that was drilled into my head when I studied anthropology at uni was that there is actually only one human race.:)

If the purpose of the census is to compile information that will assist in the planning of infrastructure and services, I fail to see what people's skin colour has to do with anything.

In fact, I wonder do we need a census at all. Many of the more efficiently governed countries in Europe haven't had censuses for decades. Instead, statistical compilation is an ongoing, almost real-time activity, and government planners have much better and more up-to-date figures at their disposal than is the case in Ireland.:)

St.Spodo

British people won't be ''mixed'' in 100 years. 92% of the population is white. Nor will Irish people. Your utopian fantasy is a long, long way away, OP.

SharpshooterTom

St.Spodo wrote: »

British people won't be ''mixed'' in 100 years. 92% of the population is white. Nor will Irish people. Your utopian fantasy is a long, long way away, OP.

That was the 2001 census, 10 years ago. There's been a much more liberal immigration policy implemented since. Its predicted to be around 88% this time.

Couple of things to point out, 22% of primary schoolchildren in England are not white. Ethnic minorities have bigger birth rates than white Brits (around a quarter of all babies born in the UK at the moment are ethnic minorities). So clearly demographics are changing within Europe and I think everyone knows this. UK is expected to be a minority-majority state by 2066, as will other european countries by then.

But that's not the point, the point is do we need actually record this crap anymore?? That's my point which I think needs addressing as I say we will all become what the definitions call 'mixed race' eventually some point this century.

pragmatic1

No. Its important to collect as much info as possible.

keith16

Gnobe wrote: »

That was the 2001 census, 10 years ago. There's been a much more liberal immigration policy implemented since. Its predicted to be around 88% this time.

Couple of things to point out, 22% of primary schoolchildren in England are not white. Ethnic minorities have bigger birth rates than white Brits (around a quarter of all babies born in the UK at the moment are ethnic minorities). So clearly demographics are changing within Europe and I think everyone knows this. UK is expected to be a minority-majority state by 2066, as will other european countries by then.

But that's not the point, the point is do we need actually record this crap anymore?? That's my point which I think needs addressing as I say we will all become what the definitions call 'mixed race' eventually some point this century.

Crap which you have just used in an attempt to support your own argument.
How would we know demographics are changing unless we recorded them in the first place?

You constantly refer to the UK and what will happen there (without any supporting evidence) and then assume the same changes will take place in all other European countries?

dxhound2005

Gnobe wrote: »

That was the 2001 census, 10 years ago. There's been a much more liberal immigration policy implemented since. Its predicted to be around 88% this time.

Couple of things to point out, 22% of primary schoolchildren in England are not white. Ethnic minorities have bigger birth rates than white Brits (around a quarter of all babies born in the UK at the moment are ethnic minorities). So clearly demographics are changing within Europe and I think everyone knows this. UK is expected to be a minority-majority state by 2066, as will other european countries by then.

But that's not the point, the point is do we need actually record this crap anymore?? That's my point which I think needs addressing as I say we will all become what the definitions call 'mixed race' eventually some point this century.

Although it is prohibited in the census in France since 1872 other people can legally collect such statistics and for whatever reason have found it necessary or useful to do so. Their results do not show that the prohibition has been of advantage to ethnic minority people. In fact they claim that there is discrimination in France based on ethnicity.

Herb Powell

Now, I really hate the phrase "PC Brigade", because it's usually used as an insult in place of an argument by ****ing idiots excusing their own predjudices, but................

ShooterSF

juan.kerr wrote: »

OP, you may consider yourself mixed race but I don't consider myself to be and I don't plan to become mixed race in the near future.

You can't plan to become mixed race because you can't change race :P Unless you're Michael Jackson of course...
What a ridiculous statement.

SharpshooterTom

keith16 wrote:

(without any supporting evidence)

http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001012/sfr12-2011.pdf

Page 20:
Number of ethnic minority primary school children in England (not including White irish/other):
704,385

Total number of pupils: 3,256,015
= 21.63%

And that number has been continuely increasing every year by the way.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

In fact they claim that there is discrimination in France based on ethnicity.

I've heard this argument and accept why they have say it, but I just think overall it would better if society didn't recognise race at all whatsoever. Like I say demographics are changing anyway in favour of "mix race" (which will help France) and if there is one human race like everyone says, then why is it recorded?

keith16

Gnobe wrote: »

keith16 wrote:

(without any supporting evidence)

http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001012/sfr12-2011.pdf

Page 20:
Number of ethnic minority primary school children in England (not including White irish/other):
704,385

Total number of pupils: 3,256,015
= 21.63%

And that number has been continuely increasing every year by the way.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

In fact they claim that there is discrimination in France based on ethnicity.

I've heard this argument and accept why they have say it, but I just think overall it would better if society didn't recognise race at all whatsoever. Like I say demographics are changing anyway in favour of "mix race" (which will help France) and if there is one human race like everyone says, then why is it recorded?

Are you going to answer my other questions? France and the UK are famous for having multi-cultural societies, but you seem to think that trends in these countries will apply globally? What about countries which have little diversity? Are they going to turn beige overnight just because France and the UK say so?

Your argument is infuriating - let's not record race - here is the recorded data on race in schools in England to prove my point.

And through all of this you make the ridiculous assumption that the trend will continue in this manner ad infinitum.

nlgbbbblth

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Ive generally refuse to answer (or give meaninglessly vauge answers to) questions about race and religion particularly on documents issued by the government.

Its none of their damn business.

Are you ashamed of your race and religious status?

Mike 1972

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

Are you ashamed of your race and religious status?

Are you ashamed of your medical history/bank details/propensity for sexual relations with straw figures

If not do please tell all :rolleyes:

nlgbbbblth

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Are you ashamed of your medical history/bank details

If not do please tell :rolleyes:

I don't think they're part of the census form.

Medical history is too wide a topic while bank details are irrelevant.

Race and religion are two easily answerable categories and provide useful statistical information. I don't understand why somebody would have an issue answering them. It's not as if you can be persecuted for your answers.

Mike 1972

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

It's not as if you can be persecuted for your answers.

How so ?

nlgbbbblth

Mike 1972 wrote: »

How so ?

Stating your race and religion on a census form does not bring future harassment.

I don't get your opposition to this - why bother filling out the form at all?

Mike 1972

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

Stating your race and religion on a census form does not bring future harassment.

You stated this twice without providing a shred of evidence to back it up.

Oh and both the Irish and UK census forms do include medical questions.

why bother filling out the form at all?

Leaving aside the threat of prosecution its a pretty good question actually.

nlgbbbblth

Mike 1972 wrote: »

You stated this twice without providing a shred of evidence to back it up.

I and my family have answered these categories on previous census forms and nothing bad has happened as a result. What proof do you have that it could be used against you? Your original reasoning was "none of their business".

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Oh and both the Irish and UK census forms do include medical questions.

My mistake - forgot the Irish one has some medical questions.

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Leaving aside the threat of prosecution its a pretty good question actually.

Probably could be avoided with an appropriate excuse.

BunShopVoyeur

Gnobe wrote: »

Does anyone now think it's time to remove race from the census and all government documents??

I think we should. I mean come on, it's been argued that we will all become mixed race eventually, probably within 100 years or so in countries like Britain.

The terms white, black, asian, mixed race etc are very archaic. There is no such thing as race, it should be omitted from society completely. I don't recognise mixed race people as mixed race simply because the human race is already one to begin with, so IMO, there are no mixed race people.

Like I say the world is becoming beige shortly and race is dying out anyway. Is it time we removed all these racial labels??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

Mike 1972

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

I and my family have answered these categories on previous census forms and nothing bad has happened as a result.

Nothing bad has happened you so youve expanded your personal experience to encompass the entire population of every country under all possible future scenarios ?

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

Your original reasoning was "none of their business".

Which I stand by.

You may be willing to trust the current (and all future) governments not to misuse or loose your data but its hardly tinfoil hat stuff to conclude that "trust us were the government" shouldnt wash with any sane person. Especially when the Governments in question have such an apalling record regarding data security.

Batsy

Gnobe wrote: »

There is no such thing as race

Yes there is such thing as race.

You have a very left wing mindset in the sense that you believe everybody is equal and that nobody is different, which is just not the case.

SharpshooterTom

keith16 wrote: »

Are you going to answer my other questions? France and the UK are famous for having multi-cultural societies, but you seem to think that trends in these countries will apply globally? What about countries which have little diversity? Are they going to turn beige overnight just because France and the UK say so?

Ok lets run through some of them:

Australia - Just 20 million 'white' people. About 70% of their immigrants nowadays come from Asia. Expect an Asian majority by 2050 onwards or so.

USA - non-hispanic white population is set to fall below 50% by 2042. 90% of the USA incoming immigrants are not white (or not from Europe, one of the two).

Canada - Majority of immigrants are not white.

Brazil - White population fell below 50% for the first time recently. Mix Race/black people will become the majority shortly.

Many other european nations, e.g. Germany, Scandinavia, Holland, and countries like Spain and Italy (even Ireland) are changing. Baring Ireland, some of these countries have really low birth rates, whereas their minorites will not.

Globalisation is worldwide phenomenon now, nothing to do with France and Britain just 'saying' so. It affects lots of countries.

keith16 wrote:

Your argument is infuriating - let's not record race - here is the recorded data on race in schools in England to prove my point.

Yeah because it was these trends which gave me the idea of which the way the world is going, and I can see it within 50 years time and that now we do not need it. Obama's election was also a turning point for me. Globalisation is in full swing now and I suspect there will be more Obama's shortly. But yes I used those to prove a point because the terms are becoming out dated now IMO in the context of miscegenation and humanity which is set to become the norm.

keith16 wrote:

And through all of this you make the ridiculous assumption that the trend will continue in this manner ad infinitum.

Uh yeah obviously. The birth rates of the poorer nations (those nations that are doing the emigrating) are much higher.

Mike 1972

Gnobe wrote: »

Ok lets run through some of them:.......Uh yeah obviously. The birth rates of the poorer nations (those nations that are doing the emigrating) are much higher.

In before I for one welcome our new overlords

dxhound2005

So Europe and North America will become beige but Asia and Africa will be unaffected.