Miracles & the Supernatural

Doc Farrell

Okey dokey, well I had a big fancy essay written up on this subject but the Internet just ate it. Just as well so I'll skip to the main points.

Physical miracles are evidence of God, according to believers.
I am stubbornly skeptical, but open minded, that is why I investigate these stories, as honestly as possible. There are also further supernatural experiences to look at but as this is a Christian forum I will limit my view for the moment to official miracles.

In the meantime the 'supernatural' in the title refers to the postings of victor zammitt, an Australian spiritualist who has been posting weekly newsletters on the subject for 12 years. From a Catholic viewpoint one is not supposed to delve too deeply into psychic phenomenon unless one's intentions are truely educational and sincere. I will withhold commentating on these things until a later time.

I'm interested in the views of atheists and agnostics in particular but respectfully request that they keep their opinions to the point, courteous and as informed as possible.

I will add further to this thread later but for the moment here are two recent examples. The first is an alleged miracle due to the intercession of John Paul II.
I find it interesting because as far as I know there are no known records of anyone recovering from Parkinsons disease. The Pope himself suffered from it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/30/world/europe/30vatican.html?_r=2&oref=slogin

The second miracle accepted by the Catholic church is interesting due to the medical records kept for it. Basically the child's liver started working again days after the medical teams failure to find a suitable transplant organ.

http://archive.catholicherald.co.uk/article/25th-may-2007/1/surgeon-breaks-silence-over-saints-miracle-at

As mentioned I hope to add to the thread should posters express an interest in this subject.

bonniebede

Two points.
a) Miracles can be convincing, but are not necessarily so. According to the gospels, many people saw Jesus miracles but did not believe in him. As a former atheist,. i know I could always rationalise my beliefs, even when they had ceased to be rational.

b) I was standing beside a man when he was healed at a prayermeeting of blindness in one eye. (THe other eye was working ). It was quite cool to see, but not a big sensationalist thing or hyped emotions or anything. Nor had he been expecting it, as he had being praying for someone else at the time, as far as I know.

Doc Farrell

That's a very interesting story. Any idea what kind of blindness it was? Did he have it from birth, was it an injury, a cataract?

I've just finished reading a book called 'miracles' by Fr. Stefan Starzynski. He celebrates healing masses and is involved in Pentecostal activities that I'm very ignorant about. There are two dozen miracles mentioned in his book (some less amazing than others admittedly!) and either this priest is mistaken on each one or else there is something very Super natural going on here.

I can understand that many, including myself, are deeply unnerved by this subject. Rational, educated people don't want to be made to look like superstitious fools, especially in Ireland where miracles tend to be spoken about only in circles of pious little old ladies. Believing in the miraculous is akin to announcing that you believe in clericalism and banning the media!

It's creepy for many because if you believe in a miracle then you have to also believe that the dead aren't really dead! You have to believe that there is more to reality then can be currently measured. It's a deeply spooky suggestion!

To get back to one of fr. Stefan's stories, I'll give it to you straight. He believes that he was visited by the ghost of a priest who, when investigated, turned out to be a man called Fr. Nelson H. Baker who was involved in establishing orphanages and shelters. Fr. Stefan visited Fr. Bakers basilica, which he built, and met a lady who used to work for him. 
She gave him some medals, one of which he gave to a nurse who was suffering from stage 4 metastatic melanoma. She had part of her right lung removed but two further nodules were found. She was given a few months to live. To cut a long story short she recovered and  provided Fr. Stefan with the medical paperwork presented for the healing to be declared a miracle.
Here is a link to the story.
http://fatherstefan.wordpress.com/father-baker-story/


The isbn of the book is 9781592767168.

This story today led me on to another link to a famous priest called Fr. Flanagan who Spencer Tracey played in Boys Town, for which he won an oscar. Anyway, there is a group who want Fr. Flanagan to be canonized and the alleged miracle here is interesting because the patient is a retired nursing professor, dr. Madeleine Leininger. She found that she had 3 tumours on her brain and eventually, with his intercession, with no surgery, they disappeared. Now, either this professor of medicine faked her illness or lied or was seriously misled or else she is telling the truth.
Here is a link.
http://www.ketv.com/r/22702857/detail.html

I'm not sure why I'm obsessed with medical miracles over the last few weeks. Maybe it's because I considered miracles to be in the same field as fairies and lucky charms. But the medical evidence repeated time and again leaves only two options. Either there is absolutely nothing supernatural happening in these cases and that each individual involved is seriously deluded or else that there is something mysterious and 'supernatural' happening. 

Miracles, I would suggest, are as definite, in your face, examples of evidence of the existence of the supernatural as one can get.

I am going to continue posting medical cases in this thread until I am personally convinced. If you are as new to all this as I am I recommend, as the previous poster suggested, not to take these events too seriously, as the strangeness of the phenomena can be disconcerting.

Doc Farrell

This is the website of the professor who had the 3 tumours on her brain.
http://www.madeleine-leininger.com/en/index.shtml

For a list of her academic awards she is also on Wikipedia.

alex73

@ Doc Farrell. There are thousands of Miracles for those who want to see them. To the believer they are signs of God in our life's. To the non believer they are phenomenons that science has not yet explained.

I like how the catholic Church gets non Catholics to investigate reported Miracles. Its not that they say it was a Miracle. They just report that the terminally ill person does not have the disease any more.

It is his name-that is, by faith in his name-that has healed this man whom you see and know. Yes, the faith that comes through Jesus has given him this perfect health in the presence of all of you

The Quadratic Equation

Doc Farrell wrote: »

But the medical evidence repeated time and again leaves only two options. Either there is absolutely nothing supernatural happening in these cases and that each individual involved is seriously deluded or else that there is something mysterious and 'supernatural' happening.

We have no idea of the true power of faith.

The skeptic would say there is a third option, the statisical exception where the condition fails to take hold and goes away of its own accord. The skeptic will also say that amputees don't receive these miraculous cures. Personaly I believe these miracles can occur, but not all of them are due to divine intervention.

Here's very intresting book and very worthwhile read on miracles from a totally Irish perspective :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Padre-Pio-Connection-Colm-Keane/dp/1845962850

Doc Farrell

Thanks for that imput quad. You are right about the third option, that nothing is happening here other than medical conditions are simply disappearing for reasons unknown.
That's why I've chosen such extreme medical examples, Parkinson's disease, liver failure, lung cancer, multiple brain tumours. In each case the patient didn't slightly improve but, in order for it to be declared a miracle, the disease completely disappeared within a matter of days.

I'm not trying to defend any particular position here, I'm just presenting the cases as they have been reported. I find the subject fascinating but I understand how many find the subject disturbing or superstitious or irrational.

The Quadratic Equation

Doc Farrell wrote: »

Thanks for that imput quad. You are right about the third option, that nothing is happening here other than medical conditions are simply disappearing for reasons unknown.
That's why I've chosen such extreme medical examples, Parkinson's disease, liver failure, lung cancer, multiple brain tumours. In each case the patient didn't slightly improve but, in order for it to be declared a miracle, the disease completely disappeared within a matter of days.

I'm not trying to defend any particular position here, I'm just presenting the cases as they have been reported. I find the subject fascinating but I understand how many find the subject disturbing or superstitious or irrational.

Try that book. I came across it at my in laws house, its not the type of book I normally read, but once I read a few chapters I found it really interesting, I would recommend it to anyone.

Newaglish

I think the main reason to disbelieve in miracles is the question: why does God hate amputees? I've never seen an arm or leg grow back.

alex73

Newaglish wrote: »

I think the main reason to disbelieve in miracles is the question: why does God hate amputees? I've never seen an arm or leg grow back.

The Miracle of Calanda is an event that allegedly took place in Calanda, Spain in 1640, according to 17th century documents. The documents state that a young farmer's leg was restored to him after having been amputated two and a half years earlier. This event is described in detail in the book Il Miracolo by Vittorio Messori.

gimmebroadband

Even if amputees grew a limb back, some people still wouldn't be convinced!

“But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.

Luke 16: 30-31

uck51js9zml2yt

Newaglish wrote: »

I think the main reason to disbelieve in miracles is the question: why does God hate amputees? I've never seen an arm or leg grow back.

A friend of mine has. He prayed for the person and the arm grew and formed in front of him.

I prayed for a muslim imman in the .name of jesus, and saw his shoulder healed. His doctors couldn't do it.

Socialist_Pig

Raymond Wooden Mannequin wrote: »

A friend of mine has. He prayed for the person and the arm grew and formed in front of him.

cool story bro.

any before and after pictures?was it covered in the local press?what type of prayers were said?

Doc Farrell

If there were medical records for this story it would change the axis of the world.

Regarding the amputee argument I've found this intelligent thread on another forum helpful.
http://forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=448956

uck51js9zml2yt

Socialist_Pig wrote: »

Raymond Wooden Mannequin wrote: »

A friend of mine has. He prayed for the person and the arm grew and formed in front of him.

cool story bro.

any before and after pictures?was it covered in the local press?what type of prayers were said?

Why would the press be involved? How many times did jesus call the jerusalem herald?
He often said to tell no one.
Even after the miracles the people still crucified Him.

Onesimus

So I think we can rule out that Miracles will ever persuade some. But they do persuade others. It always depends upon the person and their will. Some peoples wills are stronger than others. Jesus and Mary need open hearts willing to believe. It always takes an open heart.

Anyway the whole healing of amputees is silly because it's a bit like asking Jesus to cure your headache. For the headache Jesus gave us panadol. For the amputated leg Jesus gave us wooden and artificial ones.

It's not a life threatening disease, just more of a Cross one must bear in life and we all have those, both physical and mental.

Onesimus

Doc Farrell

That's a surprisingly close summation of the arguments on the 5 page thread that I just posted onesimus!

uck51js9zml2yt

Missing a limb IS life threatening in africa.
You can't work and earn money to feed yourself.

Onesimus

Raymond Wooden Mannequin wrote: »

Missing a limb IS life threatening in africa.
You can't work and earn money to feed yourself.

Yes but it is Curable and so is hunger.

But there are many incurable diseases Jesus chooses not to heal ( in Africa and universally ) and only heals people he wants to. Why is this?

He does this to exercise his power to show people that he does exist and so that they convert and believe. This is more important to Jesus than healing someones disease, that they turn away from sin, repent and believe in him. Thats souls be saved. For the the body will be here one day and gone the next, but the soul is eternal.

But for those of us with incurable diseases either mental or Physical we should all take comfort in the Cross and understand that Jesus suffered it all gladly. we should imitate him in that regard.

Splendour

Onesimus wrote: »

But for those of us with incurable diseases either mental or Physical we should all take comfort in the Cross and understand that Jesus suffered it all gladly. we should imitate him in that regard.

Difficult to suffer it gladly Onesimus when one is the only bread earner, has a mortgage to pay,kids to feed and can't work because of illness.
I've been sick for years praying for a cure and/or guidance to lead me to a Doctor who will understand my illness and offer me a cure and yet my prayers seem to fall on deaf ears. Instead of making me want to imitate Jesus, this is pulling me further away from God and my faith.

gimmebroadband

The time may be delayed,
the manner may be unexpected,
but the answer is sure to come.
Not a tear of sacred sorrow,
not a breath of holy desire poured out to God will ever be lost,
but in God's own time and way will be wafted back again in clouds of mercy
and fall in showers of blessings on you
and on those for whom you pray.

Job went through many trials at the hands of Satan, and went through much suffering, and he 'challenged' God until he got a response from him!

Hope everything works out for you Splendour!

MrPudding

Splendour wrote: »

I've been sick for years praying for a cure and/or guidance to lead me to a Doctor who will understand my illness and offer me a cure and yet my prayers seem to fall on deaf ears. Instead of making me want to imitate Jesus, this is pulling me further away from God and my faith.

That is very sad. I won’t pray for you, but I hope you get what you need.

MrP

Newaglish

Onesimus wrote: »

So I think we can rule out that Miracles will ever persuade some. But they do persuade others. It always depends upon the person and their will. Some peoples wills are stronger than others. Jesus and Mary need open hearts willing to believe. It always takes an open heart.

Anyway the whole healing of amputees is silly because it's a bit like asking Jesus to cure your headache. For the headache Jesus gave us panadol. For the amputated leg Jesus gave us wooden and artificial ones.

It's not a life threatening disease, just more of a Cross one must bear in life and we all have those, both physical and mental.

Onesimus

Doesn't that fly completely in the face of the alleged "Miracle of Calanda"?

CMpunked

Apologies for the long post, but thought this experience should be shared on the subject of miracles:

A friend of my girlfriend had been told that there was no way she could have kids owing to an experience she had when she was younger.
She was also told that she had complications with her fallopian tubes and the lining of her womb was extremely thin so regardless she wouldnt be able to even carry a child, had her fallopian tubes allow for it.

Anyway. When she got married her husband kept saying while on honeymoon that when they got home to their house he better start clearing out the box room for them to use it as a nursery at some point. The wife reminded him of a long discussion they had when she described all the doctors had said. He told her he believed they would have children because he had faith.

Few weeks after they got home and one thing or another the girl found herself pregnant. The doctor who told her she could never have kids was stunned, telling her to prepare that she would definitely lose it.
Weeks passed and they arranged an ultrasound and the nurse conducting the scan told her that her uterus wall was an inch THICKER than the average.

The doctors are genuinely stunned at how its all working so well, they really didnt think the pregnancy would survive after the 4th-5th week.

The couple plan on getting all the medical reports as results to show that miracles do happen and can happen today.

Doc Farrell

I'm delighted for her and thanks for contributing to the thread. Just to be irritatingly technical can I ask you for a few questions. Of course you don't have to answer!
What faith is he? Is she the same faith? Did she pray as well or only him? Who did she pray to, for example a favorite saint, to Jesus, to God? What age is she, generally?
Feel free to ignore any or all of these questions.

Onesimus

Doc Farrell wrote: »

I'm delighted for her and thanks for contributing to the thread. Just to be irritatingly technical can I ask you for a few questions. Of course you don't have to answer!
What faith is he? Is she the same faith? Did she pray as well or only him? Who did she pray to, for example a favorite saint, to Jesus, to God? What age is she, generally?
Feel free to ignore any or all of these questions.

Good questions Doc. I remember a story in Medjugorje that the Visionaries saw a local Muslim woman with Our Lady in Heaven. The visionaries were stunned and said ''How come she is in heaven and she is not even a Christian?'' Our Lady said something to the effect of ''She led a good life didnt she? and was a good Mother?''

So the Mercy of God we just have no idea about it. It's so beyond us. he is even known to heal non-believers who then become believers.

uck51js9zml2yt

Onesimus wrote: »

Doc Farrell wrote: »

I'm delighted for her and thanks for contributing to the thread. Just to be irritatingly technical can I ask you for a few questions. Of course you don't have to answer!
What faith is he? Is she the same faith? Did she pray as well or only him? Who did she pray to, for example a favorite saint, to Jesus, to God? What age is she, generally?
Feel free to ignore any or all of these questions.

Good questions Doc. I remember a story in Medjugorje that the Visionaries saw a local Muslim woman with Our Lady in Heaven. The visionaries were stunned and said ''How come she is in heaven and she is not even a Christian?'' Our Lady said something to the effect of ''She led a good life didnt she? and was a good Mother?''

So the Mercy of God we just have no idea about it. It's so beyond us. he is even known to heal non-believers who then become believers.

so was Jesus wrong when he said he was the only way to God?

And is scripture wrong when it says that its only in Jesus name is a person healed?

Onesimus

Raymond Wooden Mannequin wrote: »

so was Jesus wrong when he said he was the only way to God?

And is scripture wrong when it says that its only in Jesus name is a person healed?

Of Course Jesus is the only way. but this doesnt stop Jesus from deciding who goes to heaven. I also recall how Jesus revealed to the Samaritan woman at the well ( who wasnt a Jew of the true faith ) that he was the Christ. She is the first one in the Gospel to whom he reveals that he is the Christ. This is interesting.

When I say heal Non-Believers we all dont need to call on the name of Jesus to be healed. He can heal whenever he wants to. Who are we to decide when God heals and doesnt heal?

Doc Farrell

Tatranska would you like to share any further information on the two miracles you mentioned before? There's no need obviously to mention surnames on a public forum but if you could provide dates, locations, age and faiths of people involved that would be interesting.
Obviously you can choose to ignore these questions.

CMpunked

Doc Farrell wrote: »

I'm delighted for her and thanks for contributing to the thread. Just to be irritatingly technical can I ask you for a few questions. Of course you don't have to answer!
What faith is he? Is she the same faith? Did she pray as well or only him? Who did she pray to, for example a favorite saint, to Jesus, to God? What age is she, generally?
Feel free to ignore any or all of these questions.

Yeah no problem.
She came to salvation in her early teens. She was told she could never have kids and then became a christian later, i think.
I know she when he started saying they would have kids she did start praying about it and that.

Personally speaking, i can only imagine that her prayers were probably mostly that when she found a husband that he would be ok with not being able to be a natural dad, to be honest.
She didnt pray to a saint, but prayed directly to God.

philologos

Newaglish wrote: »

I think the main reason to disbelieve in miracles is the question: why does God hate amputees? I've never seen an arm or leg grow back.

This is an awful argument.

I don't believe that God couldn't heal amputees just because I haven't seen such a thing occur. I'm also pretty certain that this is poor logic. One, just because I haven't seen such miracles doesn't mean that they have not occurred. In fact if miracles occurred on a daily basis, they wouldn't be called miracles, they'd be called regular events and people would be just as likely to reject that God had any place in them.

The Quadratic Equation

Onesimus wrote: »

Good questions Doc. I remember a story in Medjugorje that the Visionaries saw a local Muslim woman with Our Lady in Heaven. The visionaries were stunned and said ''How come she is in heaven and she is not even a Christian?'' Our Lady said something to the effect of ''She led a good life didnt she? and was a good Mother?''

Would this be the same 'visionaries' that claim Mary told them all religions are equal ?

Onesimus

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Would this be the same 'visionaries' that claim Mary told them all religions are equal ?

Would the Church if she thought such a rumour was true (and who is more of a theologian than you'll ever be Quad ) bother to send in a Theological commission to make final judgement upon Medjugorje? I dont think so.

The Quadratic Equation

Onesimus wrote: »

Would the Church if she thought such a rumour was true (and who is more of a theologian than you'll ever be Quad ) bother to send in a Theological commission to make final judgement upon Medjugorje? I dont think so.

I'm very much looking forward to when the Vatican investigation publish their report. Vatican's office on doctrine, has launched an unprecedented investigation into Medjugorje before the apparitions ceased. A major change in Vatican policy.

But given the tens of thousands of 'messages' since 1981, and the many contradictions it's going to take some time. I do like the way the Vatican gave the Medjugorje visionaires, and/or the so called 'Gospa' entity enough space and time to trip up on themselves.

Well just for starters, perhaps you can enlighten us all here with the theology that explains :

1. How they can claim all religions, including pagan ones, are equal ?

2. Why you believe the church will change 2000 years of doctrine and Christ's teachings to suit the obvious errors of private 'revelations' of the 'visionaries' ?

3. Both the local Bishop Zanic of Mostar and his successor, Bishop Peric, fully investigated the phenomenon and decided that nothing supernatural is taking place. Why ?

4. In stark contrast to Lourdes and Fatima, not a single one of the 'visionaries' have a religious vocation, why ?

5. In stark contrast to Lourdes and Fatima, 'The Gospa' approved of disobedience to the local Bishop ?

6. Did our lady tell the St. Bernadette in Lourdes, or the visionaries in Fatima to buy BMW's and tour America ?

7. Why has the 'visionaries' self proclaimed 'spiritual director' been liaised ?

8. At the arraged 4.40pm Irish time, 17th Feb 2011, Vicka Mijatovic, known as the smiling visionary, fell to her knees in front of a 2,000-strong crowd in the RDS in Dublin and had her daily vision. It was €5 to get in.
Afterwards Vicak announced “ 'Mary' came tonight very happy, and every night she comes she says hello to her son Jesus.". On Friday 18th, hundreds joined her in the Shelbourne Hall as she kneeled down just after 4.45pm. Eyes fixed upon a plaster statue of the Virgin Mary.

Ten minutes later she stood up telling the crowd that if well enough they must fast, only taking bread and water, for two days this week. She added that the 'Virgin Mary' had passed on her love to them but warned that Satan — acting through young people — was attempting to break up families. Then Vicak headed off to the Late Late Show.

- Now does this sound consistant with Lourdes and Fatima ?

ISAW

Newaglish wrote: »

I think the main reason to disbelieve in miracles is the question: why does God hate amputees? I've never seen an arm or leg grow back.

I think that is an "only true Scotsman" fallacy.
We discussed it a while back
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74925422&postcount=631

Onesimus

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

I'm very much looking forward to when the Vatican investigation publish their report. Vatican's office on doctrine, has launched an unprecedented investigation into Medjugorje before the apparitions ceased. A major change in Vatican policy.

But given the tens of thousands of 'messages' since 1981, and the many contradictions it's going to take some time. I do like the way the Vatican gave the Medjugorje visionaires, and/or the so called 'Gospa' entity enough space and time to trip up on themselves.

Well just for starters, perhaps you can enlighten us all here with the theology that explains :

1. How they can claim all religions, including pagan ones, are equal ?

2. Why you believe the church will change 2000 years of doctrine and Christ's teachings to suit the obvious errors of private 'revelations' of the 'visionaries' ?

3. Both the local Bishop Zanic of Mostar and his successor, Bishop Peric, fully investigated the phenomenon and decided that nothing supernatural is taking place. Why ?

4. In stark contrast to Lourdes and Fatima, not a single one of the 'visionaries' have a religious vocation, why ?

5. In stark contrast to Lourdes and Fatima, 'The Gospa' approved of disobedience to the local Bishop ?

6. Did our lady tell the St. Bernadette in Lourdes, or the visionaries in Fatima to buy BMW's and tour America ?

7. Why has the 'visionaries' self proclaimed 'spiritual director' been liaised ?

8. At the arraged 4.40pm Irish time, 17th Feb 2011, Vicka Mijatovic, known as the smiling visionary, fell to her knees in front of a 2,000-strong crowd in the RDS in Dublin and had her daily vision. It was €5 to get in.
Afterwards Vicak announced “ 'Mary' came tonight very happy, and every night she comes she says hello to her son Jesus.". On Friday 18th, hundreds joined her in the Shelbourne Hall as she kneeled down just after 4.45pm. Eyes fixed upon a plaster statue of the Virgin Mary.

Ten minutes later she stood up telling the crowd that if well enough they must fast, only taking bread and water, for two days this week. She added that the 'Virgin Mary' had passed on her love to them but warned that Satan — acting through young people — was attempting to break up families. Then Vicak headed off to the Late Late Show.

- Now does this sound consistant with Lourdes and Fatima ?

Quad. All your third party sources taken from the ''self styled experts'' and those who love to perpetuate several rumours around the dark areas of the internet, are of no use. If they had any weight the Church wouldnt bother to send in a commission to make final Judgment on Medjugorje.

I'm not gonna argue with you on any points you make for that reason and the other reason being that your just dead set against it. It would be like trying to teach a Donkey to speak English.

God bless
Onesimus

The Quadratic Equation

Onesimus wrote: »

Quad. All your third party sources taken from the ''self styled experts'' and those who love to perpetuate several rumours around the dark areas of the internet, are of no use. .

Just for starters the local Bishop Zanic of Mostar and his successor, Bishop Peric

Onesimus wrote: »

If they had any weight the Church wouldnt bother to send in a commission to make final Judgment on Medjugorje

You're seriously trying to imply the church ONLY investigates true claims ? lol

Onesimus wrote: »

I'm not gonna argue with you on any points you make for that reason and the other reason being that your just dead set against it. It would be like trying to teach a Donkey to speak English.


God bless
Onesimus

You can't answer a single question can you ? Desperately trying to avoid the issues by sinking to ad hominem and veiled slurs ? That in itself is a good enough result and demonstrates my point. Thanks.

uck51js9zml2yt

Doc Farrell wrote: »

Tatranska would you like to share any further information on the two miracles you mentioned before? There's no need obviously to mention surnames on a public forum but if you could provide dates, locations, age and faiths of people involved that would be interesting.
Obviously you can choose to ignore these questions.

why do you need this information.

i could recount several healings to people i know personally.
but i beleive jesus when he said tell no one.
again my question. what does it profit you knowing all this?

CMpunked

Raymond Wooden Mannequin wrote: »

but i beleive jesus when he said tell no one.
again my question. what does it profit you knowing all this?

What about when he said to go into the world and preach the good news of all he said and done?

Doc Farrell

I like details and specifics, call it a weakness of character if you wish.

Please feel under no pressure or concern to answer anything.

PDN

Raymond Wooden Mannequin wrote: »

why do you need this information.

i could recount several healings to people i know personally.
but i beleive jesus when he said tell no one.
again my question. what does it profit you knowing all this?

Well, you've already told us, haven't you?

uck51js9zml2yt

PDN wrote: »

Raymond Wooden Mannequin wrote: »

why do you need this information.

i could recount several healings to people i know personally.
but i beleive jesus when he said tell no one.
again my question. what does it profit you knowing all this?

Well, you've already told us, haven't you?

ive given no specifics.
i can think of a dozen healings off the top of my head with nothing to do with the rc church. cancers ,infertility, limbs growing, leprousy healed, dead raised.
and not a journalist to be seen:)

CMpunked

Raymond Wooden Mannequin wrote: »

ive given no specifics.
i can think of a dozen healings off the top of my head with nothing to do with the rc church. cancers ,infertility, limbs growing, leprousy healed, dead raised.
and not a journalist to be seen:)

Your saying you have seen someone being resurrected, yes?

uck51js9zml2yt

CMpunked wrote: »

Raymond Wooden Mannequin wrote: »

ive given no specifics.
i can think of a dozen healings off the top of my head with nothing to do with the rc church. cancers ,infertility, limbs growing, leprousy healed, dead raised.
and not a journalist to be seen:)

Your saying you have seen someone being resurrected, yes?

a friend of over 25 years spoke to a lady in africa who was clinically dead and who had seen heaven.
why would we be surprised, didnt jesus say we would do greater things than He had done.

CMpunked

Raymond Wooden Mannequin wrote: »

a friend of over 25 years spoke to a lady in africa who was clinically dead and who had seen heaven.

Thats pretty cool. A friend of a friend had the same kinda experience.

Doc Farrell

Raymond Wooden Mannequin wrote: »

ive given no specifics.
i can think of a dozen healings off the top of my head with nothing to do with the rc church. cancers ,infertility, limbs growing, leprousy healed, dead raised.
and not a journalist to be seen:)

Ok, well, I'm happy for you but the purpose of this public thread is to provide information where people can further investigate for themselves. It has nothing to do with the RCC specifically nor with journalists. If you don't wish to provide medical information about each case that is your choice.
Best of luck.

uck51js9zml2yt

Doc Farrell wrote: »

Raymond Wooden Mannequin wrote: »

ive given no specifics.
i can think of a dozen healings off the top of my head with nothing to do with the rc church. cancers ,infertility, limbs growing, leprousy healed, dead raised.
and not a journalist to be seen:)

Ok, well, I'm happy for you but the purpose of this public thread is to provide information where people can further investigate for themselves. It has nothing to do with the RCC specifically nor with journalists. If you don't wish to provide medical information about each case that is your choice.
Best of luck.

if you need to investigate i suggest you go to a church that believes miracles happen in this present age

The Quadratic Equation

Raymond Wooden Mannequin wrote: »

if you need to investigate i suggest you go to a church that believes miracles happen in this present age

As you seemed to have witnessed quite a few, can you reccomend one ?

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The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

As you seemed to have witnessed quite a few, can you reccomend one ?

They are generally Penecostal so you could start there.

Not all the healings I know about are confined to Ireland.
One I know about was in Nepal were the man had leprousy and was buddist.
The pastor was visiting a hospital and met him. He told him tha if he believed that only Jesus would heal him, then he would be healed.
The nurse protested that the man had never heard of Jesus but it didnt matter. The man was healed.

I prayed for a Muslim Mosque leader a few years ago and he was healed in the name of Jesus the only true God.
Some of his children are Christians and were thrown out the house when they converted years earlier.

ISAW

Raymond Wooden Mannequin wrote: »

They are generally Penecostal so you could start there.

Not all the healings I know about are confined to Ireland.
One I know about was in Nepal were the man had leprousy and was buddist.
The pastor was visiting a hospital and met him. He told him tha if he believed that only Jesus would heal him, then he would be healed.
The nurse protested that the man had never heard of Jesus but it didnt matter. The man was healed.

I prayed for a Muslim Mosque leader a few years ago and he was healed in the name of Jesus the only true God.
Some of his children are Christians and were thrown out the house when they converted years earlier.

See the problem is that while absence of evidence of miracles is not evidence of absence of miracles nor do travellers tales verify them.

In the end though one has to ask "what evidence is required" . currently we have a dead limb coming back to life. Now if and when that is shown the person who demanded the dead limb will then probably say "nah that isn't good enough I want to see a head growing back or a person who is dead come back to life"

In the end they either believe or they don't. True some evidence can bring them someway to believing in miracles but if they believe in "no God" or believe "anything not explained by the laws of physics just can't be a miracle" then that is what they believe.

On the other side "friend of a friend" evidence is what is called "hearsay" and does not support the contention
"I could recount several healings to people I know personally."


Did you actually personally meet the woman who came back from the dead yourself?
How long was she "dead"?
How did they measure or determine "death"?

Newaglish

Onesimus, are you going to address my earlier question? You claim that God wouldn't heal amputees because that is their 'cross to bear' but then another poster appears to have contradicted you. How can you both present such statements as fact when they are completely contradictory?