Tesco Maynooth

E39MSport

MYOB wrote: »

I'd certainly go with the ESBs line. I've seen charge points in numerous locations and NEVER used.

Yeah, they had a spokesman on saying that they would be able to detect usage patterns and roll out where needed.

They probably just ramped down the project.

Government wants to have 200k leccy cars on the road for 2020. Looks like Nissan may have bought into it.

Can't see 200k of these things in 8 years. A whole 46 people took up the 5k Gov grant !

edit - unless they're Teslas

pippip

At the rate things are going I dread to think what the price of petrol/diesel will be in 8 years.

Absurdum

unkel wrote: »

Strongly disagree. When I make a longer journey on a good empty motorway, I'd like to press on. What my calculation shows is that current EVs are not suitable for driving on motorways, unless you want to deliberately drive very slowly (and waste your life)

A vehicle that can only do 27 miles / 18 minutes on a motorway at cruising speed before needing a complete recharge, is going to have a very limited market in continental Europe, or even in the UK

Good for you, it has been pointed out repeatedly in threads like this, the motoring press and even Nissan themselves that it isn't aimed at people like you (and me). For now that is.

As an aside of sorts, I remember when flat panel TVs cost €15k, plenty of naysayers were dismissing them because of their alleged short lifespans, screen burn, etc.; I picked up a 42" Sony for €450 yesterday.

Point is, the Leaf is the start, costs will come down, range will increase.

L1011

pippip wrote: »

At the rate things are going I dread to think what the price of petrol/diesel will be in 8 years.

The increase of late has been entirely down to our govt, not oil prices.

Absurdum wrote: »

Point is, the Leaf is the start, costs will come down, range will increase.

We were told that with the GM EV-1.... costs haven't come down - the rare earth metals needed aren't going to get any cheaper - and range hasn't improved as battery technology has reached its safety peak.

pajo1981

unkel wrote: »

My assumption was that the top speed was not limited. I clearly stated that. I can't find anywhere stating that it the top speed in the Leaf is limited. If you can show me that it is indeed limited, I'll concede that my calculation isn't valid

Even if it wasn't limited, you would also need to assume that either the power function is flat (which it isn't), or that the gearing is such that peak power and top speed coincide (which they don't)- in fact peak power out arrives at about 35MPH.

The leaf isn't using anything like max power at legal motorway speed/top speed (limited or unlimited), and to say that it's not suited to motor drive is just plain wrong.

Absurdum

MYOB wrote: »

We were told that with the GM EV-1.... costs haven't come down - the rare earth metals needed aren't going to get any cheaper - and range hasn't improved as battery technology has reached its safety peak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

One industry official said that each EV1 cost the company about US$80,000, including research, development and other associated costs;[57] other estimates placed the vehicle's actual cost as high as $100,000.

The Gen I EV1 models, released in 1996, used lead-acid batteries, and weighed in at 3,086 pounds (1,400 kg). The first batch of batteries were provided by GM's Delphi branch; these were rated at 53 amp-hours at 312 volts (16.5 kWh), and initially provided a range of 60 miles (96 km) per charge. Gen II cars, released in 1999, used a new batch of lead-acid batteries provided by Panasonic; some Gen I cars were retrofitted with this battery pack. The Japanese batteries were rated at 60 amp-hours (18.7 kWh) at 312 volts, and increased the EV1's range to 100 miles (161 km). Soon after the rollout of the second generation cars, the originally intended nickel metal hydride (NiMH) "Ovonic" battery pack, which reduced the car's curb weight to 2,908 pounds (1,319 kg) entered production; this pack was also retrofitted to earlier cars (both battery pack designs were led and invented by John E. Waters under the Delco Remy organization). The NiMH batteries, rated at 77 amp-hours (26.4 kWh) at 343 volts, gave the cars a range of 160 miles (257 km) per charge, more than twice what the original Gen I cars could muster.

also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F

L1011

Absurdum wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

Do you think the per-unit cost of the Leaf covers development costs yet? Does it bollox. The quoted EV-1 costs included all of that.

Once batteries moved to Li-ion, development peaked. There is no more to be got. The electronics industry has spent billions trying to get beyond this and all they can develop are unsafe, minorly improved ones.

There's far more to be gained in the short term for an electronics firm who can make their new device half the size than for a car firm with an EV, so if the people who have the real gains to be made have failed why on earth would a car firm who makes 99% of its revenues from ICEs succeed?

Absurdum wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F

Misinformed sensationalist propaganda. Impracticality killed it, and will kill it again, once governments stop subsidising them.

pajo1981

MYOB wrote: »

Do you think the per-unit cost of the Leaf covers development costs yet? Does it bollox. The quoted EV-1 costs included all of that.

Once batteries moved to Li-ion, development peaked. There is no more to be got. The electronics industry has spent billions trying to get beyond this and all they can develop are unsafe, minorly improved ones.

What about liPO? The next gen electric cars will probably have lipo batteries fit. A lipo battery has about double the energy capacity/mass of a standard Li-Ion.

And don't forget about the nano-tech stuff.

eringobragh

I've noticed the ESB themselves are using EVs in their fleet in Dublin City Centre...at least someones using the charge points

L1011

pajo1981 wrote: »

What about liPO? The next gen electric cars will probably have lipo batteries fit. A lipo battery has about double the energy capacity/mass of a standard Li-Ion.

And don't forget about the nano-tech stuff.

LiPo is far, far too dangerous to use in something which could be in a collision.

... on the news now about charging points, €30K for a Leaf, and they reckon the reason they aren't popular is the lack of charging points, I wonder.

unkel

pajo1981 wrote: »

The leaf isn't using anything like max power at legal motorway speed/top speed (limited or unlimited), and to say that it's not suited to motor drive is just plain wrong.

Let's assume it only uses 50% of peak power (which is absurd) at 150km/h - gives us a range of a bit more than half an hour until completely empty. Not good enough. Until there are dramatic improvements in range, EVs are only suitable to slow people and for urban area use

Absurdum wrote: »

As an aside of sorts, I remember when flat panel TVs cost €15k, plenty of naysayers were dismissing them because of their alleged short lifespans, screen burn, etc.; I picked up a 42" Sony for €450 yesterday.

At least the people with the early plasmas had something to entertain them that they could show off too

But I like the analogy and my first non CRT TV 6 years ago cost not much more than your Sony

So an EV costs €30k. When it comes down to €900, I'll pick up one in the morning, even if it only had a range of 10 miles

But I keep my mind open in case these dramatic improvements we've all been promised in the past 20 years come true and these doomsayers that have been saying the oil is nearly all gone for the past 40 years were right after all. I was the first to thank the OPs post after all

pajo1981

unkel wrote: »

Let's assume it only uses 50% of peak power (which is absurd) at 150km/h - gives us a range of a bit more than half an hour until completely empty. Not good enough. Until there are dramatic improvements in range, EVs are only suitable to slow people and for urban area use

According to the EPA it will do 55MPH on the motorway for 1HR15MIN, which, in a city car, is acceptable.

The trouble really is the fact that it's a 30k city car.

A standard car requires about 60kW to cruise at 160kph, so I'd say the leaf with it low Cd and low resistance tyres could prob bring that down to about 50kW for 150kph cruising.

L1011

pajo1981 wrote: »

According to the EPA it will do 55MPH on the motorway for 1HR15MIN, which, in a city car, is acceptable.

The trouble really is the fact that it's a 30k city car.

A standard car requires about 60kW to cruise at 160kph, so I'd say the leaf with it low Cd and low resistance tyres could prob bring that down to about 50kW for 150kph cruising.

Its far too big to be called a "city car", and 55mph is far too slow for a motorway in a country where the limit is 75mph.

pajo1981

MYOB wrote: »

Its far too big to be called a "city car", and 55mph is far too slow for a motorway in a country where the limit is 75mph.

A standard car (don't know about the leaf) requires 25kW to cruise at 120kph which gives you nearly an hour of motor way cruising.

This thing is a commuter car and as such (bar price) suits the vast majority of people.

unkel

pajo1981 wrote: »

According to the EPA it will do 55MPH on the motorway for 1HR15MIN

That's 88km/h. Like I said, suitable for very slow people who don't mind wasting their lives

In something similar to the 1:15 hours you mention, I went from Dublin to Limerick last summer. In a similar size petrol car with 5 people on board. Safely. Only using about a quarter of a tank of fuel.

... I hope to Feck I never have the need to drive one of them or anything like it.

Guy:Incognito

MYOB wrote: »

Once again, fact becomes "opinion" when you disagree with it.

Extra charge points don't make an inherently short-range vehicle any more practical; particularly when the charge points are being placed at the taxpayer (and ESB customer) expense rather than funded by EV owners.

Who funds telephone lines? power lines going across the country to power homes?

The 50 or 100 people that currently own EV's in Ireland not paying for the public charges for an initial period changes nothing. If they all paid the €2 fee when they charge in public for the first year or whatever it'll be free till what would that fund anyway? A couple of metres of cable?

Bumpstop wrote: »

I'm not so sure they all are, but noone is touting the ICE as green. Whereas you would think electricity came from cuddling daisies the way they are marketing these cars.

Electricity can be got from things like dams and windfarms. Oil can't.

L1011

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Who funds telephone lines? power lines going across the country to power homes?

The 50 or 100 people that currently own EV's in Ireland not paying for the public charges for an initial period changes nothing. If they all paid the €2 fee when they charge in public for the first year or whatever it'll be free till what would that fund anyway? A couple of metres of cable?

The builder of my house paid a significant fee to the ESB to get it connected and I paid Eircom another fee to get the phone line activated. I have also paid for all power/traffic over said lines. Amazingly, the power company makes a profit and the phone company would if it wasn't saddled with debt - so the users fund them quite well.

An EV owner currently gets a charging point installed at their home FOC and gets to use public ones FOC. This gives a completely false impression of running costs.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Electricity can be got from things like dams and windfarms. Oil can't.

Ireland hasn't got the dams or windfarms, nor is it ever going to have. Wind is not reliable and not cost effective and there is no more hydro to be extracted.

The only new, reliable source of non-fossil fuel energy we're getting any time soon is the incinerator in Duleek - and I can't see many EV owners being willing to boast that their car runs on incinerated light industrial waste.

Mr Benevolent

One thing I'll say is that while we're mostly (including me) not early adopters, we'll look back at this thread in ten years or so and think 'Mother of god, was I that naive?' Electric cars will become commonplace, we will drive them everywhere and we will laugh at the Leaf. Still, it had to start somewhere.

Personally, the Leaf is perfect for my commute, but there's no way I can afford one right now and my commute will probably become significantly longer in the next few months.



OT: Jobs administering Salesforce are like friggin' gold dust over here!

Confab

Confab wrote: »

One thing I'll say is that while we're mostly (including me) not early adopters, we'll look back at this thread in ten years or so and think 'Mother of god, was I that naive?' Electric cars will become commonplace, we will drive them everywhere and we will laugh at the Leaf. Still, it had to start somewhere. .............................

A minority of folk may drive them everywhere, we (most folk) won't though
I'll bump this in 10 years time so we'll see :pac:

Sesshoumaru

unkel wrote: »

Good analogy indeed. Manufacturers claims should always be taken with a large pinch of salt.

Please use your head and common sense, folks!

Nissan Leaf has an 80kW motor. Top speed is 150km/h and battery capacity is 24kWh

This means that driving at 150km/h (presumably using maximum power as I don't think the speed is limited), the range is an astonishing 24/80 = 18 minutes at 150km/h this is less than 27 miles

Yes. Maximum theoretical range less than 27 miles!

Top speed is more like 170 kph. Not sure how much energy you use to maintain that speed. 120kph uses between 10kw to 20kw to maintain, depending on different variables like gradient of road etc.

Sesshoumaru

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

That's all well and good, but I'm being told otherwise by Nissan.

The entire unit has to be replaced. Yes, the battery is made up of a number of components but it is a sealed unit which can only be taken apart by a specially trained EV tech.

I've seen the cost of this new unit and it's not cheap.

I wouldn't call them "components", they're literally 48 batteries. Specially trained EV tech might sound great now, but in a few years time every big garage will have one of those. You're saying that like it means it should be automatically considered expensive? Either way even if I took your pessimistic assessment as fact (which I'm not), 6+ years from now replacement cost is 2018 prices, not 2011/2012 prices.

The car uploads details on itself to Nissan via the built-in mobile data connection, so we'll know in the next year or two if they will degrade as fast as you think they will.

Sesshoumaru

E39MSport wrote: »

RTE news earlier said that the ESB have only rolled out 10% of the promised charge points for the new year. Blaming it on utilisation and Nissan blaming sales on charge point rollout.

I'd go with Nissan on this. There were zero public charging points the Leaf could use when I bought mine. ZERO. The ones you might have seen in a few places around Dublin were put in a few years ago for G-Wiz owners and they have 3 pin plugs (Leaf has J1772 connector). There were literally zero public charging facilities when I took delivery of my Leaf at the end of April 2011.

I was also one of the first to get mine and that was at the end of April. The delay was due to the department delaying the implementation of the 5k grant. So we were already 4 months into 2011 before you could buy one and there were zero public charging facilities. Taking into account the majority of car sales are at the start of the year (new reg syndrome?) and the zero public charging facilities, I'd say that hurt sales!

During summer I drove my Leaf from Dublin to Galway and while in Galway I got a fast charge at the local Nissan dealer. While there I had a chat with one of the sales guys and he was telling me interest had been strong in the car. He was lamenting the lack of public charge points as he said most people were saying they would be more interested when they can see the charging infrastructure in place. That last part is a little bit anecdotal of course, but I've heard the same from others, very interested customers until they hear there are still hardly any public charge points.

keithclancy

I'm seeing more and more Tesla Roadsters on the road over here.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Tesla_Nuon_oplaadpunt_Marnixlaan_Amsterdam.jpg

Theres been loading points for Bikes and all sorts of ages, and a Tesla Dealership just opened recently in Eindhoven.

Lad in work got one, its surprisingly quick and he uses it for is 60km daily commute to work.

Electric for myself, while i'd love one isn't feasible.

Sesshoumaru

In relation to cost of using public charging points.

I plug-in the car whenever I get home, however I charge at night time. The cars IT systems have a scheduler, so it only charges itself on night rate electricity. So in reality we are increasing the energy efficiency of the grid by using electricity that would otherwise be wasted (power plants don't turn off at night). The ESB still need to generate that electricity that isn't used and that cost is reflected in what the ESB charge for electricity.

Sesshoumaru

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Realistically how many regular Joe soaps have the money to buy any of the Tesla range?

I don't think he was claiming they were? But looking at the history of the automobile, not many Joe soaps could afford the first ones either. Eventually the few that could buy, helped improve design and drive down cost. The Tesla Model S while still expensive, is a lot more affordable than the Roadster.

http://www.teslamotors.com/models/options

keithclancy

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Realistically how many regular Joe soaps have the money to buy any of the Tesla range?

Anyone that has the money to buy and own a Porsche Boxter has the money to buy and own a Tesla roadster.

Considering as well petrol is 1.78 a liter, Motor Tax is crazy high and your Tesla Roadster is 150% tax deductable.

Plus the Teslas hold their value extremely well as there is a waiting list to buy one.

A base spec boxter is 67.900
http://www.autowereld.com/showroom/typen.asp?model=118363

A base spec tesla new is 84.000
http://www.autowereld.com/showroom/typen.asp?model=118520

The yearly motor tax on a 2.9 liter petrol engine:
Uitkomst berekening

Motorrijtuigenbelasting per kwartaal (Per Quarter): € 585,00
Motorrijtuigenbelasting per jaar (Per Year): € 2340,00

So taking into account fuel, servicing, tax, repairs etc. The Tesla doesn't look so bad.

L1011

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

In relation to cost of using public charging points.

I plug-in the car whenever I get home, however I charge at night time. The cars IT systems have a scheduler, so it only charges itself on night rate electricity. So in reality we are increasing the energy efficiency of the grid by using electricity that would otherwise be wasted (power plants don't turn off at night). The ESB still need to generate that electricity that isn't used and that cost is reflected in what the ESB charge for electricity.

How does that relate to using public charging points, for free, at peak time electricty rates? You said "in relation to..." and then posted something completely NOT related to what you claimed.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

But looking at the history of the automobile, not many Joe soaps could afford the first ones either. Eventually the few that could buy, helped improve design and drive down cost.

The invention of product line manufacturing was the huge cost reducer in ICE cars. There is no similar innovation to reduce the cost of EVs - the parts which can be cheap already ARE cheap due to ICEs

JJJJNR

They should scrap the whole thing now, give the people who purchased EV's their money back, the country is fcked (HSE, Edu) and we are still rolling out EV infra LOL