Who will have to pay the water charges???

jod1983

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/taoiseach-warns-of-water-charges-534143.html

Our humble leader has been on about this today and says that every home in the country will have a meter. 'Water can no longer be free'. But what about the rural people who have payed already.
I paid €5000 to get my well drilled and have filtration systems put in, i also pay €300 a year to have this maitained.
Will i and the many others who are in this situation be get getting a refund or will we have to pay this tax on top of everything else as well?

drunkmonkey

I think technically the Government own everything under the ground so they could try and charge you. They need to be fairer to people in the countryside who have their own wells. They've also no transport systems besides the car so the should also be given a concession on motor tax or fuel. Ride the city folk that's what I say.

Irish Steve

jod1983 wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/taoiseach-warns-of-water-charges-534143.html

Our humble leader has been on about this today and says that every home in the country will have a meter. 'Water can no longer be free'. But what about the rural people who have payed already.
I paid €5000 to get my well drilled and have filtration systems put in, i also pay €300 a year to have this maitained.
Will i and the many others who are in this situation be get getting a refund or will we have to pay this tax on top of everything else as well?

For the system to be justifiable, there should be 2 factors. if it's your well, and not shared, and you pay for it, then that's one aspect of it. The other is the disposal side, if you are on any form of mains drainage, then there's costs involved in the processing, and that has to be paid for somewhere, if you're on a septic tank, then it's your responsibility, and again, straightforward. As far as I'm concerned, you're not in a water charge net of any sort if you already pay for your services in the way you've outlined. Fair, simple, and effective.

The people that need to come into the net are the ones on public schemes, and on main drainage, as both of those services cost, significantly, and they have to be paid for. I don't know what the split is between public and private schemes, and the other complication then is the disposal side, which is also significant, more so inland where there are real risks of downstream pollution if appropriate treatment does not happen.

As to how it will be worked out, that could be a horse of a different colour, but what's new?

I could argue that the quality of the water we get in Ashbourne does not meet EU standards, it's too hard, so I should get a reduction to help offset the costs I have to pay for my softener that helps to reduce the cost of detergent, and reduces damage to showers and the like, but I suspect that won't get much recognition either, given that Meath CC were able to get derogations from complying with the quality standards a while back.

If "we" (the government) agree to take on board these sorts of directives, and to charge for water, then we should also not be allowed to ignore rules that don't suit us. Pigs might fly!

n900guy

Everyone who doesn' live in the Irish version of Banlieue's on the M50 ring - state dependent, exempt from all taxes. You all know who they are.

Have a job? Work for a living and make a salary of over ~€35k? Not eligible for medical cards, state housing or other welfare class privileges? If you answer yes to these questions, you are going to be paying extra *for* those people, and will also be paying extra for services you *already* pay for to continue.

mikemac1

We have our own well on our land. It was surveyed and a contractor sank it, sorted the pipe and the pump

The pump is serviced annually by a fitter. A few years ago the pipe burst so a trench had to be dug to sort that out.
Electricity to power it. All payed out of our own phóca.

And now the council expect to charge for this?

If the council are expecting money here they may build a pipe to here. It would cost them more money then they'd get back in charges

They hardly expect people to pay for council water when they don't even get it
Wait, do they? :eek:

Edit, that's an excellent post from Irish Steve above. My rant has been answered

ardmacha

If water is metered then if you have no supply then no charge. There should be a sewer charge also and if you don't have a connection then no charge, but private systems must be strictly regulated.

n97 mini

Some minister has already said that people who are on private wells won't be metered.

The rural lobby in this country is quite powerful, simply because so many live in one-offs, so I don't expect the minister to renege on this one.

On the surface this might seem fair, however many (not all) did get a grant of approx €2000 to finance their well. Ironically people who self build didn't pay stamp duty either.

Just for comparison, some EU countries meter your ingoing and outgoing water. And some consider the water in the aquifer below ground to be in their care (which technically it is), so if you access it you pay for it.

woodoo

n97 mini wrote: »

On the surface this might seem fair, however many (not all) did get a grant of approx €2000 to finance their well. Ironically people who self build didn't pay stamp duty either.

I paid stamp duty on the site i bought to build my house on.

n97 mini

woodoo wrote: »

I paid stamp duty on the site i bought to build my house on.

Stamp duty is only due on the site (and not the site plus house).

Personally I know no-one who had to pay stamp duty on a self build including someone who built over 5,000 sq ft, as the site was worth less than 250k, so free from stamp at the time.

bbam

I'd say it will go along the lines of the property tax...
First we'll see a flat rate water charge brought in, no matter if you are on public mains or your own well...

Then as meters are installed these people will be charged through the meters while the rest pay the flat rate fee which will creep up each year...

My understanding from talking to rural UK dwellers that some counties have a charge levied where you pump up your own water, taken from the perspective that they own the rights to all water in their borough and if you wish to use their water then you will pay..

These charges will come down the line and will only go one way.. up!

bbam

n97 mini wrote: »

On the surface this might seem fair, however many (not all) did get a grant of approx €2000 to finance their well. Ironically people who self build didn't pay stamp duty either.

NEw self builds did not get any finance towards their well or equipment
New self builds paid stamp duty on their sites and also a Council levy of up to €17K to use the roads and services while building..
We paid €5800 just to use the public road while building :eek:, we received no other service for this money..

Our well cost €8K, I installed the equipment myself, built the pump house and I am responsible for it's upkeep and repair... A water charge will not be popular.

Mr NoTV

The government can get stuffed. They will NOT get a cent from me for the toxic brown slurry that comes out of our tap. When they stop the farmers from dumping raw sewerage from cowsheds onto the land, that seeps into the watercourse and ultimately into the water tank in my roof, then I will consider it. I have to buy bottled water to drink and the tapwater is a disgrace ... beyond 3rd world standards. Once again, a threat from another failing government to pay money and get nothing in return.

sh1tstirrer

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I think technically the Government own everything under the ground so they could try and charge you. They need to be fairer to people in the countryside who have their own wells. They've also no transport systems besides the car so the should also be given a concession on motor tax or fuel. Ride the city folk that's what I say.

So the government think they own everything under ground and they also think they own everything over ground eg house tax. Seeing that the EU are calling the shots now why not close down government buildings and give them the dole at the normal rate and the same with their pension which they should only receive when they reach retirement age. Now there would be a huge saving to be made there.

drunkmonkey

I don't ever remember anyone testing the quality of the water out of the taps anywhere i've lived. Before the government charge for water or even fit a meter, test everybody's water to make sure it's safe.
They've started to add Flouride to out local water, i've been using bottled water every since. If the government is going to add stuff to the water that is not used in a lot of countries and banned in some and people refuse to drink it they should not have to pay.

As far as i'm concerned my water is not fit for consumption.

Chinasea

No question about it we should have to pay. The only way that people in this country respect / stop wasting resources is if they are made to pay. I hope that there will be no 'social welfare' exemptions. Everyone should pay something.

My neighbour goes away every year at Christmas and leaves her taps dripping so as to avoid the pipes bursting and sees nothing wrong with this.....

sh1tstirrer

Chinasea wrote: »

No question about it we should have to pay. The only way that people in this country respect / stop wasting resources is if they are made to pay. I hope that there will be no 'social welfare' exemptions. Everyone should pay something.

My neighbour goes away every year at Christmas and leaves her taps dripping so as to avoid the pipes bursting and sees nothing wrong with this.....

That's fair enough but why should anyone with their own private well have to pay? Any rural dwellers that have a public water supply are paying for their usage with years. Around my area anyway public water supply is metered.

Manach

Mr Kenny mentioned that we cannot have free water as billions have already been spent on the water treatment. It seems thus that tax payer money from income tax does not count towards the "free water".

HellFireClub

n97 mini wrote: »

Stamp duty is only due on the site (and not the site plus house).

Personally I know no-one who had to pay stamp duty on a self build including someone who built over 5,000 sq ft, as the site was worth less than 250k, so free from stamp at the time.

As far as I know as well, farming parents, or indeed also non-farming landholding parents, can gift/give a site off the land to a sibling, so there is no outlay required to acquire the site.

So the site can be acquired for free or as good as, it's a huge benefit in kind, compared to having to live in a city or town and pay for a property, (site & property on the site) and pay stamp duty on the lot of it...

HellFireClub

Manach wrote: »

Mr Kenny mentioned that we cannot have free water as billions have already been spent on the water treatment. It seems thus that tax payer money from income tax does not count towards the "free water".

Like everything else that involves spending tax payers money in this country, millions/billions gets thrown at the problem but there is very very little by way of improvements to be shown for the expenditure at the other end, because of the way that money gets eaten up by politics, inefficiencies, beaurocracy, bungling, red tape, pandering to vested interests, lack of decision making, kicking the can up the road, etc...

bbam

HellFireClub wrote: »

As far as I know as well, farming parents, or indeed also non-farming landholding parents, can gift/give a site off the land to a sibling, so there is no outlay required to acquire the site.

So the site can be acquired for free or as good as, it's a huge benefit in kind, compared to having to live in a city or town and pay for a property, (site & property on the site) and pay stamp duty on the lot of it...

Don't let the facts get in the way of a bit of nonsense..
Stamp duty is paid on the "value" of the site not the price paid in that particular circumstance.. Revenue decide how much is to be paid in stamp duty.


Actually this is a great example why anything can be heaped onto the Irish public... Faced with anything the first course of action if to get into a them or us among ourselves instead of pushing it back onto the government as a united people...

cyberhog

HellFireClub wrote: »

Like everything else that involves spending tax payers money in this country, millions/billions gets thrown at the problem but there is very very little by way of improvements to be shown for the expenditure at the other end, because of the way that money gets eaten up by politics, inefficiencies, beaurocracy, bungling, red tape, pandering to vested interests, lack of decision making, kicking the can up the road, etc...

That's NOT the taxpayers problem! We already pay enough for water through our taxes.

hmmm

It should be fairly straightforward to only meter public water supplies, not private.

I agree with earlier posters, everyone should pay. As usual though, the long term doleheads and "the vulnerable" won't pay a cent.

jmayo

n97 mini wrote: »

Stamp duty is only due on the site (and not the site plus house).

Personally I know no-one who had to pay stamp duty on a self build including someone who built over 5,000 sq ft, as the site was worth less than 250k, so free from stamp at the time.

Stamp duty is a transactional tax, it is not a property tax.

You may pay stamp duty if you buy big enough site, but why should you pay it on hiring builders and purchasing raw materials.

bbam wrote: »

I'd say it will go along the lines of the property tax...
First we'll see a flat rate water charge brought in, no matter if you are on public mains or your own well...

Then as meters are installed these people will be charged through the meters while the rest pay the flat rate fee which will creep up each year...

My understanding from talking to rural UK dwellers that some counties have a charge levied where you pump up your own water, taken from the perspective that they own the rights to all water in their borough and if you wish to use their water then you will pay..

These charges will come down the line and will only go one way.. up!

Why should homeowners who have provided their own private well and private sewage system pay for a service they do not get ?

The state may own so many feet under your property, but they do not provide or maintain the infrastructure.
Thus they have no right to demand a charge for a service that the homeowner is not using.
It would be akin to asking people without cars to pay car tax.

It would be carnage for any government that would try to do so.
And it is a bit fooking rich of some people to expect rural homeowners to subsidise the services they are not able to get.

Rural homeowners are going to be caught on property taxes just like everyone else.

bbam

jmayo wrote: »

The state may own so many feet under your property, but they do not provide or maintain the infrastructure.
Thus they have no right to demand a charge for a service that the homeowner is not using.

In fairness it's not the infrastructure you'll be paying for.. it's the use of the water you'll be paying for.... I don't like the thoughts or morals of it either but I'm just calling the direction I see it going in...

jmayo wrote: »

It would be akin to asking people without cars to pay car tax.

Essentially they already do... Car Tax or "Motor Tax" to give it it's correct term is nothing to do with motoring/cars/transport or the roads network.. The money is just lumped in with PAYE and all other taxes collected and then reallocated to wherever.. so paying PAYE is essentially the same as paying Motor Tax..

The truth is that these extra taxes/charges/stealth taxes are been brought in to raise extra revenue which is needed to run the country, there is no doubt it is needed..
Because FG/Labour made stupid promises not to increase the base PAYE rates they have to go round dreaming up these arse-hole taxes to gather the money that should be taken in through a decently structured PAYE system... We (or those whom FG/Lab pandered to) have ourselves to blame for insisting on no PAYE increases.. Where the hell did people think the money would come from ??

skimac

n97 mini wrote: »

Stamp duty is only due on the site (and not the site plus house).

Personally I know no-one who had to pay stamp duty on a self build including someone who built over 5,000 sq ft, as the site was worth less than 250k, so free from stamp at the time.

i built my own house on my own site i paid 5000 euro to the county council in what they call development charges the said for the up keep of the road etc never see the council around they are pot holes all over the place plus sunk my own well most people who built in the country from 2005 up paid development charges from 4000 up to 10000 an higher

jmayo

bbam wrote: »

In fairness it's not the infrastructure you'll be paying for.. it's the use of the water you'll be paying for.... I don't like the thoughts or morals of it either but I'm just calling the direction I see it going in...

So basically you think people will have to pay for water and not the infrastructure that brings it to you.
Trust me in Mayo water is pi**ing from the skies most days and you think people will pay for that.
And that is where the water originates, even if according to Ballygowan it is sitting in the groung since before the Normans arrived. :rolleyes:

I have no problem paying service charges (not taxes) on services that one avails of, but paying for something one never gets to avail of is taking the p***.
That is not going to wash with people who have spent thousands providing and maintaining their own infrastructure.
Pardon the puns.

Imagine going into persons yard and telling them we are levying water charges on you to help pay for local water/sewage council services even though you have paid for your own well & septic tank.
Oh and btw we are also billing you for an septic tank inspection.
If lucky the dog would be set on you.

bbam wrote: »

Essentially they already do... Car Tax or "Motor Tax" to give it it's correct term is nothing to do with motoring/cars/transport or the roads network.. The money is just lumped in with PAYE and all other taxes collected and then reallocated to wherever.. so paying PAYE is essentially the same as paying Motor Tax..

Sorry motor tax was a bad example since most of it indeed goes towards the general exchequer costs, rather than roads, etc.
I am all for pyaing service charges if you use services.
Water charges and household charges/property taxes should be given to local authorities which then means they should be no longer demanding money from Dept of Environment and the general exchequer.

bbam wrote: »

The truth is that these extra taxes/charges/stealth taxes are been brought in to raise extra revenue which is needed to run the country, there is no doubt it is needed..
Because FG/Labour made stupid promises not to increase the base PAYE rates they have to go round dreaming up these arse-hole taxes to gather the money that should be taken in through a decently structured PAYE system... We (or those whom FG/Lab pandered to) have ourselves to blame for insisting on no PAYE increases.. Where the hell did people think the money would come from ??

Raising PAYE too much (ala friends in left wing) is not the best way to go since increasing income tax is not good for job growth.
You cannot tax your way out of this situation.
The cost of public sector and social welfare have to be addressed.
That means CPA has to be shelved.

AFAIK the tax take is back to late 90s, but the costs are still somewhere around 2003/2004 ?
That means all the costs ramped up by that boll**s from Drumcondra need to be reversed.

prettygurrly

you know there is a solution to the water metering charges...get yourself a greywater system. reduce your reliance on public water systems by reusing water to flush your loo (one of the biggest wastes of water) or collect rain water.

by the way, 8% of the drinking water in this country is from groundwater although there are some schemes that are run by the council if there is no surface water nearby to abstract.

finally, i'm interested to know will people who are in private drinking water schemes who are abstracting from a local lake for example will have to pay these charges. for the fact that they pay a heft sum each year for their water by the water management team. however the lake is obstentially owned by the state....and then with the waterframework directive the abstraction may result in being unsustainable and have an effect in ecology which will mean that we get fined by the EU...there's a lot to think about than just the treatment of wter

Voodoo_rasher

Our nation's drinking water is systematically laced with a toxic substance ,fluoride against our wishes. To pay water charges on tainted water is a complete ****ing affront!

MadsL

I live in a desert and will be paying $40 a month for a group water scheme plus .08c a gallon overage, my father in the UK pays about 30 GBP a month for water charges. Germans pay even more.

Get over it people! Treated water isn't free - unless you capture as much as you can falling from the skies, that is free

bbam

MadsL wrote: »

Get over it people! Treated water isn't free - unless you capture as much as you can falling from the skies, that is free

Great...
So we're not having to pay for our private well since it's neither treated nor ever been tested... Glad to hear it :rolleyes:

MadsL

bbam wrote: »

Great...
So we're not having to pay for our private well since it's neither treated nor ever been tested... Glad to hear it :rolleyes:

That's generally the way it works, I think there have been some statements about well schemes not paying which makes sense. Why would it be otherwise?

Zander1983

we all should pay water charges, they have to in other countries. why should we be diffferent?

RichardAnd

Zander1983 wrote: »

we all should pay water charges, they have to in other countries. why should we be diffferent?

Why should we be the same?

Zander1983

Why should we be the same?

So we're special are we? Anyway, I come froma farming background and we practically pay for our water - water pumps are hard to maintain and need to be replaced every few years. We have three and end up replacing one about once every 3 years. Water should not be free because its expensive to supply

tayto lover

Zander1983 wrote: »

So we're special are we? Anyway, I come froma farming background and we practically pay for our water - water pumps are hard to maintain and need to be replaced every few years. We have three and end up replacing one about once every 3 years. Water should not be free because its expensive to supply

Will you pay your septic tank charge?

Zander1983

Will you pay your septic tank charge? [/QUOTE

Think we're exempt since we built and maintain the tank ourself. But yeah I would if we had to. Listen, in this day and age, a lot of things are free. News, music, movies etc all free (I save about 450 euro a year on newspapers alone by going online). We're getting used to it. We should start paying for the services provided to us

Dannyboy83

It's not a tax, it's a fine (penalty).
This is what is causing the confusion.

Same as you are fined for owning a car - they called it "Motor Tax", but they should have called it a "Motor Penalty".
It's the fine you pay for owning a car in this country.

It should only be called a "tax" if it is reinvested into the infrastructure. Otherwise, it's a fine.

Manach

In all likelihood this tax till be sent to the common exchequer fund. There will be no choice or citizen oversight of the water tax outgoings, in that the same ineffecent state system will run it, leaving no choices to the end user. Finally water is a fundamental right to survive. Failing to guarentee this weakens the state claim to be the guardian of "the common good".

RichardAnd

Zander1983 wrote: »

So we're special are we? Anyway, I come froma farming background and we practically pay for our water - water pumps are hard to maintain and need to be replaced every few years. We have three and end up replacing one about once every 3 years. Water should not be free because its expensive to supply

Do you want people to pay for tax because it is, as you say, a European norm or is it rather that because you pay for water already, you think we all should?