Can FF acutally manage to recover and become a major force in Irish Politics?

oisindcu

After reading through a lot of these threads and other blogs etc...It has left me wondering is a FF Resurrection actually possible and can they become the major force in Irish politics they once were? Any thoughts...

Seth Brundle

I hope to God that they don't.
They have proven that they don't give a toss about Ireland or her citizens.

To think that they still have the likes of O'Dea in their front line shows that they have in no way changed.

I have no political leanings but I look forward to the day when FF finally announce that they are sorry for everything that they have done and will immediately disband.

melekalikimaka

very likely

tayto lover

They should have been wiped out completely in the last election just like the Greens. Will never vote for a shower of self-serving bstards again. Fine Gael going the same way hopefully. We need a few new parties.

the_syco

tayto lover wrote: »

We need a few new parties.

We need new parties, but will vote in the old ones. I'd say FF be back in power the election after next.

votecounts

Yes, because FG and Labour have done :nothing constuctive
No Job Strategy
Cutting Disabilty, what was Joan Smoking
Increasing VAT-Killing Businesses
Roscommon Hospital
Cuuting Gardai funding
Property tax
Etc, etc.

PS, I hate FF with a vengeance

Cavehill Red

Recover?

I'd like to see membership of FF proscribed and made a criminal offence. Maybe then we could start jailing the pocket-lining filth who got the country into the state it's in.

Mikel91

I love how unbiased and intelligent these threads can be sometimes :rolleyes:

Foxhound38

Mikel91 wrote: »

I love how unbiased and intelligent these threads can be sometimes :rolleyes:

It's hard to be unbiased when you're talking about a group whos corruption and incompetence is internationally recognized (as much so as the banks at least) as having had a huge hand in destroying this country, and who's disasterously stupid decisions could have the dubious honour of putting the country in the history books as one of the main factors in bringing the entire eurozone down with it. It's like asking someone from Drogheda back in the day to be unbiased about Cromwell, and I'm not one for hyperbole...

I feel myself getting physically angry when I see one of them on the television complaining about measures (not all of which I agree with by any means) the Government is taking to clean up after the mess they created. I am also unapologetic in by belief that anyone who votes for these gangsters again literally this side of the next decade is a moron who's brain needs to be taken away by social services. The same goes for anyone who voted for Sean Gallagher. Unfortunately we have plenty such morons in the voting public, and if the Gallagher debacle taught me anything it is that there are those who are only just waiting for an excuse to forgive FF and hop back on that particular, idiotic wagon. Already I'm hearing cries from the party faithful that it's a "changed party" (a whole 10 or so months since it was in government), and I see people starting to believe them - the polls reflect it.

I can only hope I'm long gone from this place before these fools inevitably put them in Government Buildings again...

Victor

oisindcu wrote: »

After reading through a lot of these threads and other blogs etc...It has left me wondering is a FF Resurrection actually possible and can they become the major force in Irish politics they once were? Any thoughts...

Assuming the party survives the William Hague / Iain Duncan Smith / Michael Howard (who?) period that is coming.

I imagine they are going to loose quite a few council seats (they already have few MEPs) in 2014, with those seats likely going to anti-government parties - people will want to punish the government, but won't be able to bring themselves to vote FF. However, there are likely to gain some seats (total 30-40) in the next general election (2016?) as their floating voters will feel they may have over-reacted this year. They may even pick-up anti-government votes by then. They will still be too toxic to be part of a coalition, but may engage in a Tallaght Strategy type arrangement, depending on FG-Labour relations at that point.

Presidential election in 2018 (or sooner if there is constitutional reform) might see them run a 'lily white' candidate (who?) and local European elections in 2019 will probably determine if the mainstream of the party will be acceptable to the public and will be key to a push for the 2021 general election. I can't honestly see them doing better than 50-60 seats, then so it could be 15 years before they could lead another government, not dissimilar to the fate of the Conservative Party in the 1996-2010 period. As to whether they are acceptable coalition partners by 2021 is another matter - notably many of the current personalities will have retired at that stage.

However, as they say, a week is a long time in politics.

totobyrne

the last goverment had no skill they got us in to the mess we are in now ff is dead

rip

NIMAN

FF will probably recover, cos the Irish are really that stupid.

But I think in the next 20 - 30yrs, SF will be the major force in Irish politics, cos people are just fed up with the cronyism thats continuing with FG.

Foxhound38

NIMAN wrote: »

FF will probably recover, cos the Irish are really that stupid.

But I think in the next 20 - 30yrs, SF will be the major force in Irish politics, cos people are just fed up with the cronyism thats continuing with FG.

SF have their share of the cronyism pie too (nothing near as big as FF's was all the same) and while the Irish voter may be breathtakingly stupid they at least don't forget murder easily. I'd reckon it'll be quite a while still before SF gains the legitimacy it needs down south to govern.

seanybiker

Surely recovering would mean they learned from their mistakes?? If they do then sure why not?
They know tough times politically and they fooked up majorly. If they do come back hopefully they will have learned to cop the fook on.

Foxhound38

seanybiker wrote: »

Surely recovering would mean they learned from their mistakes?? If they do then sure why not?
They know tough times politically and they fooked up majorly. If they do come back hopefully they will have learned to cop the fook on.

What does it say about us as a people if they are given another chance in the even vaguely forseeable future though? Remember, our self-destruction had global consequences, any electoral reproachment of FF will be picked up globally. I believe it would show us up as even more of an international laughing stock than we are now... I'd rather make Jackie Healy-Rae Taoiseach personally...

gaffer91

If FF position themselves as the "centrist" party, take a stronger line on social justice while not necessarily being pro-union, attract more young members to replace the old guard, then yes they can recover

Mikel91

Foxhound38 wrote: »

It's hard to be unbiased when you're talking about a group whos corruption and incompetence is internationally recognized (as much so as the banks at least

I'm afriad I dont have any links but Fianna Fail was actually praised internationally to your shock.Much for for the measures they put in before the left this government as they were seen as correct,Needed and what was right for the country.

I feel myself getting physically angry when I see one of them on the television complaining about measures (not all of which I agree with by any means) the Government is taking to clean up after the mess they created.

I've posted this time and time again here. in recent times.That is our type of Parliament.Its how its meant to work.The opposition party is meant to criticize the government, rarely working with it.Its the westminister style used in such countries as here,The UK and Greece
Also if you can recall when the current government were in opposition they critised the government for doing doing enough spending and trying to cut government size.The current Government much kike FF is accused if in the past used populism to get in,with much of the policies they promised not being brought in or used,instead using the FF ones.

I am also unapologetic in by belief that anyone who votes for these gangsters again literally this side of the next decade is a moron who's brain needs to be taken away by social services. The same goes for anyone who voted for Sean Gallagher. Unfortunately we have plenty such morons in the voting public, and if the Gallagher debacle taught me anything it is that there are those who are only just waiting for an excuse to forgive FF and hop back on that particular, idiotic wagon. Already I'm hearing cries from the party faithful that it's a "changed party" (a whole 10 or so months since it was in government), and I see people starting to believe them - the polls reflect it.

Having spoken with members of the party,Meeting those in both their grass root system,Ogra and several tds I can personally say I have seen change with in them.The partys members doing see what had happened,they are changing internally and theres a great deal of renewal.I quite recently met a person who switched from Young Fine Gael to Ogra Fianna Fail and he told me that of everything he was led to believe,hate and was informed of FF...That it was not them but FG that held those traits.While theres no denying that it may have been the case in the past there certainly has been a change.

Your anger both scares and amuses me as it shows both how little people are informed,blind sighted and quick to push for violence and mob mentality.

Theres no denying that FF had a part to play in the Irish recession but they are not the main,nor the sole people to blame nor even the major of it.

FF will probably recover, cos the Irish are really that stupid.

As opposed to the people who say FF have nenver done anything good for this country and how they will never vote for them again,even if they were clearly the best alternative at that time.

If FF position themselves as the "centrist" party, take a stronger line on social justice while not necessarily being pro-union, attract more young members to replace the old guard, then yes they can recover

FF are a center left party,academics in comparison to the rest of Europe put them as Socially Progressive Democrats.From what I've seen with them theres a huge push for the young within them as they wish to replace the old,which for the most part is being congratulated by all within.(Before people accuse me of the FF card ,well I'm just going to say I know people and I know about how the partys are like both internally and stuff etc.Not only FF but FG and SF too.Lab & Greens not so much)

gaffer91

@Mikel91- I would have to disagree that FF were not the main cause of the financial meltdown in Ireland. The policies they implemented did play a large role in the massive property boom and crash. Their out of control spending was also a contributing factor

That is not to say that FG or Labour would have done a better job, their policies from the 1997-2007 period, as has been pointed out many times, were virtually identical except they demanded increased levels of spending. FG policy prior to the 2007 GE would also have led to an increased inflation of the property bubble.

Having said that, FF still deserved to be removed form office this year. This is beyond question, imo.

That is not to say that I would rule out voting for them again in the future. Having seen the way FG and Labour have lead the country since February, I am massively disappointed.

Mikel91 wrote: »

As opposed to the people who say FF have nenver done anything good for this country and how they will never vote for them again,even if they were clearly the best alternative at that time.

This is a very good point and people would do well to take it on board. Complete hatred of a party and an immediate dismissal of anything they have to say out of hand is not too far from blind loyalty to a party.

Mikel91

gaffer91 wrote: »

@Mikel91- I would have to disagree that FF were not the main cause of the financial meltdown in Ireland. The policies they implemented did play a large role in the massive property boom and crash, and did lead to out of control spending.

They did play a large role yes but I would put more the on the Banks lack of regulating themselves. and generally going without saying the Global recession.That being said there should be far more finance laws put in place.Please dont get me wrong,and I'm probably after contraindicating myself hah but I do see FFs large role in it,but in general I think the Irish people,well boards atleast put too much focus on them.

Having said FF still deserved to be removed form office this year. This is beyond question, imo.

Without a doubt,Even its own members are saying that.It was a purge for them that is pretty much celebrated.Allot of grassroot members even said that when they canvased people told them how while they may in the future,they cant vote for FF this time.It was a good kick up the arse the party needed to get itself going again in the right direction.

Foxhound38

Mikel91 wrote: »

Your anger both scares and amuses me as it shows both how little people are informed,blind sighted and quick to push for violence and mob mentality.

I'll answer the more substancial claims in your post tomorrow when I'm not on the way out the door, but when did I once call for violence in any of the posts I have made here or anywhere else for that matter? I don't want FFers hunted down, I just never want them in office again - there is a difference. Also, I thought I was reacting against the mob mentality, which I clearly stated seems only too willing to forgive FF a whole 10 months since they were in Government, to countenence voting in a known FFer in the form of Sean Gallagher...

thebman

Mikel91 wrote: »

Having spoken with members of the party,Meeting those in both their grass root system,Ogra and several tds I can personally say I have seen change with in them.The partys members doing see what had happened,they are changing internally and theres a great deal of renewal.I quite recently met a person who switched from Young Fine Gael to Ogra Fianna Fail and he told me that of everything he was led to believe,hate and was informed of FF...That it was not them but FG that held those traits.While theres no denying that it may have been the case in the past there certainly has been a change.

Ah they are giving younger members a chance of power so the young people will claim they are reforming. It is natural but given they joined the party because of the party it is, it is unlikely that any substantial change is happening but more a changing of the guard TBH.

It is the problem of all political parties, there is no fresh thinking which is why it would have been better for the country if FF had of split IMO.

FF are a center left party,academics in comparison to the rest of Europe put them as Socially Progressive Democrats.From what I've seen with them theres a huge push for the young within them as they wish to replace the old,which for the most part is being congratulated by all within.(Before people accuse me of the FF card ,well I'm just going to say I know people and I know about how the partys are like both internally and stuff etc.Not only FF but FG and SF too.Lab & Greens not so much)

FF and FG are a whatever your having parties of the state. They are center. Not center left or right. I don't think we'll see grown up politics in Ireland until both these parties are destroyed TBH.

We also need proper reform of our politics so that opposition isn't merely pointles showboating like it is in the Dail at the moment.

Liam Byrne

seanybiker wrote: »

Surely recovering would mean they learned from their mistakes?? If they do then sure why not?
They know tough times politically and they fooked up majorly. If they do come back hopefully they will have learned to cop the fook on.

As the AA will tell you, the first step to recovery is admission and wanting to change.

FF still deny the part they played and there have been no changes, with O'Dea reinstated despite what he did.

gaffer91

Liam Byrne wrote: »

As the AA will tell you, the first step to recovery is admission and wanting to change.

FF still deny the part they played and there have been no changes, with O'Dea reinstated despite what he did.

My understanding is that MM did admit to FF making mistakes?

As for the O'Dea reinstatement, it was a big mistake, no question and it is something to take on board when considering who to vote for in the next election. However it by itself does not mean MM is incapable of making any good decisions or mean that everything else he does should be immediately dismissed.

marketty

No they'll never come back, don't know how they ever got in in the first place since nobody on boards and none of my friends/family/colleagues/neighbours EVER voted for them when times were good. Apparently.

Liam Byrne

gaffer91 wrote: »

My understanding is that MM did admit to FF making mistakes?

So I imagined his oft-repeated catchphrase "I don't accept that" ?

As for the O'Dea reinstatement, it was a big mistake, no question and it is something to take on board when considering who to vote for in the next election. However it by itself does not mean MM is incapable of making any good decisions or mean that everything else he does should be immediately dismissed.

He reinstated O'Dea which means he has no interest in changing FF for the better, and that's not even related to the fact that he was part of the most disastrous administration ever.

If he represents FF "improvements" you can keep them.

HellFireClub

In fairness, FF made a balls of the place, and that needed fixing. FG/Labour are ten times worse than them in my view. They are the one's who came before the people and claimed to have the backbone and the vision to be able to fix the country, they said the policy of bailing out zombie banks was defective and that the money generated in the country needed to be used to underpin a jobs creation strategy. They had a 5 Point Plan and all, there isn't a single thing that they got elected to do, that they have even attempted to get in place. Hardly surprising for a shop steward and a school teacher, all surrounded by career politicians who wouldn't know a business plan if they tripped over one.

gaffer91

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So I imagined his oft-repeated catchphrase "I don't accept that" ?

Its here. Maybe not the apology you were looking for but its something nonetheless.

http://ec2-46-137-0-54.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/2011/news/9michel-martin-admits-to-cosy-consensus-in-economy60/

Liam Byrne wrote: »

He reinstated O'Dea which means he has no interest in changing FF for the better, and that's not even related to the fact that he was part of the most disastrous administration ever.

If he represents FF "improvements" you can keep them.

Er no. It doesn't mean he has "no interest in changing FF", it means he made a mistake in this particular instance. You seem unable or unwilling to accept that.

tayto lover

M.Martin was part of F.F. and as such should not even have been re-elected. Not only was he part of it, he was a Govt Minister in the party that caused the worst damage possible to this state. As such he should be confined to history.

Enda the German will go the same way.

john reilly

Foxhound38 wrote: »

SF have their share of the cronyism pie too (nothing near as big as FF's was all the same) and while the Irish voter may be breathtakingly stupid they at least don't forget murder easily. I'd reckon it'll be quite a while still before SF gains the legitimacy it needs down south to govern.

If it came down to murder any irish goverment has been complacent in more murders than SinnFein have. That aside the best chance that f.f have are the incompetent shower that are in charge now. People who voted for change or expected change, have no understanding of politics.

Motavato

Talking of murdering, there has been collusion by governments in murder!
I believe the Irish optimism towards Irish politicians is evident the breadth of the country, common sayings like "hes a decent man didnt he get the road tarred up to me brother's slatted shed"
Thats what a great politician is in Ireland.
They should be turfed out on their heads like they do with them in England when they are f***in about.

Motavato

Talkin of Enda, he's like a rabbit caught in the headlights !

Liam Byrne

gaffer91 wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So I imagined his oft-repeated catchphrase "I don't accept that" ?

Its here. Maybe not the apology you were looking for but its something nonetheless.

http://ec2-46-137-0-54.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/2011/news/9michel-martin-admits-to-cosy-consensus-in-economy60/

Liam Byrne wrote: »

He reinstated O'Dea which means he has no interest in changing FF for the better, and that's not even related to the fact that he was part of the most disastrous administration ever.

If he represents FF "improvements" you can keep them.

Er no. It doesn't mean he has "no interest in changing FF", it means he made a mistake in this particular instance. You seem unable or unwilling to accept that.

Give me ONE SINGLE REASON why I should give this individual even the slightest benefit of the doubt ?

You believe that he made a mistake. I believe that it's another example of FF's core ethos.

Your opinion does not override mine, and given Martin's involvement in FF to create the crisis and his actions and half-bakes insincere "apologies" that "don't accept that" and his opinion that libellous slanderous individuals who commit perjury are suitable for his front bench, the facts are backing up my opinion, not yours.

Sierra Oscar

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Give me ONE SINGLE REASON why I should give this individual even the slightest benefit of the doubt ?

There is little point anyone trying to provide you with any single reason in this thread considering the fact that when you have been provided with such examples in previous threads you just cast them down no matter what.

I think most people here realize you hate FF and nothing anyone can say will change that so there is little point you pretending anyone here can change your viewpoint.

Seth Brundle

gaffer91 wrote: »

Its here. Maybe not the apology you were looking for but its something nonetheless.

http://ec2-46-137-0-54.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/2011/news/9michel-martin-admits-to-cosy-consensus-in-economy60/

To be honest an apology is not genuine when you instantly start passing blame onto others.

gaffer91 wrote: »

Er no. It doesn't mean he has "no interest in changing FF", it means he made a mistake in this particular instance. You seem unable or unwilling to accept that.

He didn't make a mistake. O'Dea was selected intentionally by the party on the basis of his previous vote winning performances.

He was picked not because of his abilities as a politician (especially that previously he was forced to resign due to a lack of confidence in him due to his actions with regard to Nessan Quinlivan (FYI Dan Boyle referred to him as "compromised")). MM and FF decided to resurrect him as they figured he would manage to scrape some votes by those in Limerick City who don't listen to the news.

Sierra Oscar

Anyways personally I feel FF will manage a recovery although it will most certainly have to span at least two General Elections. I can imagine that FF will not step into government for the next eight to ten years and by that time the party is likely to have changed significantly both in terms of its membership and its policy platform. There are few in FF who even want to be anywhere near government within the next four years - something which I think shows that the party recognises that a long road to recovery is ahead.

If the Euro crisis is exacerbated over the next twelve months then there may be some softening of attitudes towards FF also with people realising that there is a global dimension to our current woes. All the same FF's economic policies were disastrous during the boom years and the party has a momentous task in regaining the trust of the electorate.

gaffer91

kbannon wrote: »

To be honest an apology is not genuine when you instantly start passing blame onto others.

I think from a politician that's as good as you could realistically hope for.

kbannon wrote: »

He didn't make a mistake. O'Dea was selected intentionally by the party on the basis of his previous vote winning performances.

He was picked not because of his abilities as a politician (especially that previously he was forced to resign due to a lack of confidence in him due to his actions with regard to Nessan Quinlivan (FYI Dan Boyle referred to him as "compromised")). MM and FF decided to resurrect him as they figured he would manage to scrape some votes by those in Limerick City who don't listen to the news.

By "mistake", I mean I think he was wrong to do it (select O'Dea on the front bench prior to the GE). I can see the reasons he did it for but I think it was still the wrong thing to do. I'm not sure what you thought I meant?

Seth Brundle

gaffer91 wrote: »

I think from a politician that's as good as you could realistically hope for.

I don't want to settle on hoping for something. If I was satisfied with settling on something less than what I want, maybe then I would consider voting for FF. (actually I wouldn't!)

gaffer91 wrote: »

By "mistake", I mean I think he was wrong to do it (select O'Dea on the front bench prior to the GE). I can see the reasons he did it for but I think it was still the wrong thing to do. I'm not sure what you thought I meant?

You said that he made a mistake in selecting O'Dea and that it doesn't indicate that he doesn't want to change FF. I showed that because O'Dea managed to get votes in Limerick, he was called back to help bolster FF in what everyone knew would be a bloodbath.
O'Dea's selection was fully intentional by MM & FF and shows that they haven't changed one iota.

Mikel91

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

There is little point anyone trying to provide you with any single reason in this thread considering the fact that when you have been provided with such examples in previous threads you just cast them down no matter what.

I think most people here realize you hate FF and nothing anyone can say will change that so there is little point you pretending anyone here can change your viewpoint.

Sierra...You sir are a legend hah hah.

O'Dea's selection was fully intentional by MM & FF and shows that they haven't changed one iota.

Actually Peter Power,who is now head of UNICEF Ireland was FFs main backing for Limerick.The only reason Willie keeps getting his seat is as of localism voting and when ever he's challenged for his FF place within the Grassroot system he usually is meant to bring a large number of floating or rent a mob members.This was due to the voting styles of FF grass roots system which is set to be reformed and changed at the next Ard Fheis.

Foxhound38

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Anyways personally I feel FF will manage a recovery although it will most certainly have to span at least two General Elections. I can imagine that FF will not step into government for the next eight to ten years and by that time the party is likely to have changed significantly both in terms of its membership and its policy platform. There are few in FF who even want to be anywhere near government within the next four years - something which I think shows that the party recognises that a long road to recovery is ahead.

If the Euro crisis is exacerbated over the next twelve months then there may be some softening of attitudes towards FF also with people realising that there is a global dimension to our current woes. All the same FF's economic policies were disastrous during the boom years and the party has a momentous task in regaining the trust of the electorate.

Sierra, what does FF actually stand for, aside from populaism and republican rhetoric? Give me one, solid, policy-based or ideological reason why it shouldn't just fold into FG? No FF'er I've ever talked to could give me a satisfactory answer to this. Is there any differences or even stated differences aside from personalities?

Liam Byrne

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Give me ONE SINGLE REASON why I should give this individual even the slightest benefit of the doubt ?

There is little point anyone trying to provide you with any single reason in this thread considering the fact that when you have been provided with such examples in previous threads you just cast them down no matter what.

I think most people here realize you hate FF and nothing anyone can say will change that so there is little point you pretending anyone here can change your viewpoint.

I have not been given any indication that FF are changing. If you have a problem with that then maybe you should take an objective look at the party that you choose to belong to.

I hate FF because of what they represent and continue to represent. If they changed then I wouldn't hate them.

But - as I have shown - they have no interest in changing or representing ordinary working people.

Mikel91

Sierra, what does FF actually stand for, aside from populaism and republican rhetoric? Give me one, solid, policy-based or ideological reason why it shouldn't just fold into FG? No FF'er I've ever talked to could give me a satisfactory answer to this. Is there any differences or even stated differences aside from personalities?

I have not been given any indication that FF are changing. If you have a problem with that then maybe you should take an objective look at the party that you choose to belong to.

I hate FF because of what they represent and continue to represent. If they changed then I wouldn't hate them.

But - as I have shown - they have no interest in changing or representing ordinary working people.

Lads honestly ye have no idea do ye.I dont mean to insult but my god...You both claim to have political interests but form what I cna tell you know as much as the average joe does.Do a bit more research into the party other than boards/politics.ie threads.

Liam especially you.My god we know you hate FF,We heard it through too the teeth.You constantly make accusations and ignore peoples posts fully.When ever a proper,decent discussion happens about the party,be the thread praising or criticing them..You hijack with several others and turn into one of those people that call Joe Duffy and scream down the phone making things into a non nonsensical rant.Please...just grow up /rant

Liam Byrne

Mikel91 wrote: »

I have not been given any indication that FF are changing. If you have a problem with that then maybe you should take an objective look at the party that you choose to belong to.

I hate FF because of what they represent and continue to represent. If they changed then I wouldn't hate them.

But - as I have shown - they have no interest in changing or representing ordinary working people.

Liam especially you.My god we know you hate FF,We heard it through too the teeth.You constantly make accusations and ignore peoples posts fully.When ever a proper,decent discussion happens about the party,be the thread praising or criticing them..You hijack with several others and turn into one of those people that call Joe Duffy and scream down the phone making things into a non nonsensical rant.Please...just grow up /rant

Never listen to Joe Duffy and - unlike those who do - I don't read tabloids and don't rant or scream. I think things through and examine all the facts.

Are you an FF member ?

Are you suggesting that we're not entitled to point out that FF refuses to change ?

Mikel91

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Are you an FF member ?

Are you suggesting that we're not entitled to point out that FF refuses to change ?

Why am I reminded by American McCarthyism.You do know that you dont have to be a member or FF to support or defend them against,well provocations that are far beyond the cause you imply.

You can point it out,but it doesn't meant your right.

Now Liam I'd rather we not take over this thread between us with a flame war and get back to the topic on hand.

Seth Brundle

Mikel91 wrote: »

You do know that you dont have to be a member or FF to support or defend them against,well provocations that are far beyond the cause you imply.

very very few non FF members would nowadays be willing to stand up and defend them in all fairness. Sure, most who voted for them in the last two general elections won't even admit it!

Mikel91 wrote: »

Now Liam I'd rather we not take over this thread between us with a flame war and get back to the topic on hand.

I agree.
My view again. I loathe FF for what they have done to this country and pray to God that they never secure another seat on a bus never mind within the walls of Dáil Éireann.

thebman

Mikel91 wrote: »

Lads honestly ye have no idea do ye.I dont mean to insult but my god...You both claim to have political interests but form what I cna tell you know as much as the average joe does.Do a bit more research into the party other than boards/politics.ie threads.

Liam especially you.My god we know you hate FF,We heard it through too the teeth.You constantly make accusations and ignore peoples posts fully.When ever a proper,decent discussion happens about the party,be the thread praising or criticing them..You hijack with several others and turn into one of those people that call Joe Duffy and scream down the phone making things into a non nonsensical rant.Please...just grow up /rant

In fairness, FF's "issues" page which is the closest thing they have to a policies page on their current website that I can see and is just a categorised list of the News section from what I can see.

http://www.fiannafail.ie/issues/

Then you have the "constituition of Fianna Fail" which is so vague, you can't tell what they'd actually do to achieve any of things they supposedly stand for.

http://www.fiannafail.ie/content/pages/5097/

So they seem to not want people to know what their real policies are from what I can see.

Sierra Oscar

thebman wrote: »

In fairness, FF's "issues" page which is the closest thing they have to a policies page on their current website that I can see and is just a categorised list of the News section from what I can see.

http://www.fiannafail.ie/issues/

Then you have the "constituition of Fianna Fail" which is so vague, you can't tell what they'd actually do to achieve any of things they supposedly stand for.

http://www.fiannafail.ie/content/pages/5097/

So they seem to not want people to know what their real policies are from what I can see.

We will revist the constitution and the policies after the Ard Fheis (occurring within a matter of weeks now). An entire new constitution is in the works alongside the formation of new policy. The deadline for motions for the Ard Fheis is in fact falling this very week so I suspect a Clár detailing the motions up for discussion will be made available shortly.

Very little to discuss on the policy side until after the Ard Fheis, which I have been pointing out for the last six months. You are right in saying that, currently, FF has no real coherent and structured policy platform. That will not even begin to emerge until after the various Ardfheiseanna which are due to occur in 2012.

Its not ideal - but I think its actually good that the collective membership of the party once again can direct party policy, rather than a narrow elite dictating to others what party policy shall be.

Also the FF website is not really worth a tuppence at the moment. It has not been properly updated in months - I suspect as 2012 advances you will see an entire new website being implemented (which will actually list policy and aims which were passed at the Ard Fheis to be built upon).

transylman

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

We will revist the constitution and the policies after the Ard Fheis (occurring within a matter of weeks now). An entire new constitution is in the works alongside the formation of new policy. The deadline for motions for the Ard Fheis is in fact falling this very week so I suspect a Clár detailing the motions up for discussion will be made available shortly.

Meh. I'm sure it will be the same old story. Heard it all before from the likes of Ahern and Haughey with their promises of change and a new start and an end to corruption etc etc.

Fact of the matter is that for all their dominance of irish politics their record is truly shocking. Multiple economic recessions directly attributable to their policies, populist pandering to the church, seemingly engrained corruption. Sure, every so often they throw up someone capable like Reynolds or Lemass, but for the most part it was incompetents, crooks, or both.

I just hope the electorate are wise enough to finally recognize this and those that had always voted FF distribute themselves among parties that actually stand for something.

miju

Foxhound38 wrote: »

It's hard to be unbiased when you're talking about a group whos corruption and incompetence is internationally recognized

Interestingly enough FG / Lab dont seem to be reckoned to be any less corrupt than FF going by historical standards and thats international ratings too

Liam Byrne

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I suspect as 2012 advances you will see an entire new website being implemented (which will actually list policy and aims which were passed at the Ard Fheis to be built upon).

And who'll be paying for that ? Another €40,000 wasted on €5,000 worth of a site ?

tayto lover

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And who'll be paying for that ? Another €40,000 wasted on €5,000 worth of a site ?

And it will ran by some crony.

The Scientician

The way I see it, unless things drastically improve during the timespan of the current Dáil then Fianna Fáil will be back in government next time, probably in a coalition. They won't be as strong as they were in the '90s/early '00s but if things keep heading south FG and Labour are going to be wiped out at the next general election. In this scenario Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and probably some of the other smaller parties and independents would see an increased shared of the vote on the last election. Would an FF/SF coalition be possible? (Here's hoping not!)

If, however, things start improving here before the next general election I would imagine FG/Labour or another FG coalition would be the next government. In which case I bet there'd still be a Fianna Fáil recovery of sorts by the following election as people get sick of Enda Kenny's mug.

I do wonder if all this turmoil continues, will any real alternative new parties emerge?