Investigation continues into US plane targeted at Shannon

MarkR

I hadn't heard anything about this until I read the article in the Limerick Post.

Seems all you need is a pair of wire cutters to vandalize a plane.

dr.fuzzenstein

MarkR wrote: »

I hadn't heard anything about this until I read the article in the Limerick Post.

Seems all you need is a pair of wire cutters to vandalize a plane.

Or a hatchet...

opinionated3

Yeah apparently rumour has it that whoever carried it out may have had assistance from within the airport. Anyway disgraceful carryon. All they achieved was a hurried visit from the omniair chief threatening to move the business elsewhere. As if the airport hadn't enough problems....

Johnboy1951

If, as has been claimed, they are moving troops through the airport to/from war zones, then that is the kind of business we should do without.

Ilyushin76

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

If, as has been claimed, they are moving troops through the airport to/from war zones, then that is the kind of business we should do without.

What do you think they are doing now ?

phill106

The airport is basically a petrol station for planes, if they don't fill up in shannon they will fill up at the next one.

MyKeyG

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

If, as has been claimed, they are moving troops through the airport to/from war zones, then that is the kind of business we should do without.

There's very little business we can do without to be fair.

You may argue it's a moral issue but that's purely down to opinion. Not that it would make a blind bit of difference. They'd still move the troops to war zones. Lack of Irish co-operation would be a mere inconvenience nothing else.

CptSternn

MyKeyG wrote: »

There's very little business we can do without to be fair.

You may argue it's a moral issue but that's purely down to opinion. Not that it would make a blind bit of difference. They'd still move the troops to war zones. Lack of Irish co-operation would be a mere inconvenience nothing else.

We don't have to support it and it is business we can do without.

If they nazis wanted to move cattle cars full of people heading to concentration camps here during ww2 would you have argued that it is a moral issue down to opinion? So do you think the people they are renditioning to secret jails and torturing is nothing more than a matter of opinion to be debated? You don't mind torture as long as local businesses make a few quid in the whole deal?

You are right it won't make any difference if we allow it or not, they will work around us, but we don't have to take money in from other peoples wars, especially when we claim to be a neutral country, and more importantly when we as a country claim to be against things like torture and rendition.

Using the 'someone else will get paid to do it anyway so might as well be me' excuse means you have no morals and would sell your own soul if not your childrens as well for the right price.

MarkR

CptSternn wrote: »

We don't have to support it and it is business we can do without.

If they nazis wanted to move cattle cars full of people heading to concentration camps here during ww2 would you have argued that it is a moral issue down to opinion? So do you think the people they are renditioning to secret jails and torturing is nothing more than a matter of opinion to be debated? You don't mind torture as long as local businesses make a few quid in the whole deal?

Argument closed by Godwin's Law

MyKeyG

CptSternn wrote: »

We don't have to support it and it is business we can do without.

I never said we had to.

If they nazis wanted to move cattle cars full of people heading to concentration camps here during ww2 would you have argued that it is a moral issue down to opinion? So do you think the people they are renditioning to secret jails and torturing is nothing more than a matter of opinion to be debated? You don't mind torture as long as local businesses make a few quid in the whole deal?

I've never seen prisoners transported through Shannon airport and neither have you. I have seen pictures, video footage and documentation cataloguing the planning and implementation of the final solution. Even if there was proof I would hardly compare the Guantanamo Bay detention facility to Auschwitz nor the interrogation of its inmates to the systematic genocide of 16 million people.

You are right it won't make any difference if we allow it or not, they will work around us, but we don't have to take money in from other peoples wars, especially when we claim to be a neutral country, and more importantly when we as a country claim to be against things like torture and rendition.

Therein lies the operative word, 'claim'. This neutral country has been sticking its nose in other peoples wars for years hiding behind the guise of peace keeping. We are also part of an economic and political community whose members sent troops to Iraq and Afghanistan so please don't insult my intelligence with talk of neutrality.

Using the 'someone else will get paid to do it anyway so might as well be me' excuse means you have no morals and would sell your own soul if not your childrens as well for the right price.

Please don't get so personal. It doesn't bode well for the value of your opinion if you need to get pithy. That was not my point. My point was that it's nonsense to claim we are making any sort of protest simply by refusing access to these aircraft. Shannon is an international airport that serves the international communities air traffic. Wherever they decide to go thereafter on their conscience be it. A few million gallons of fuel a year doesn't make us accomplices to war.

opinionated3

CptSternn wrote: »

MyKeyG wrote: »

There's very little business we can do without to be fair.

You may argue it's a moral issue but that's purely down to opinion. Not that it would make a blind bit of difference. They'd still move the troops to war zones. Lack of Irish co-operation would be a mere inconvenience nothing else.

We don't have to support it and it is business we can do without.

If they nazis wanted to move cattle cars full of people heading to concentration camps here during ww2 would you have argued that it is a moral issue down to opinion? So do you think the people they are renditioning to secret jails and torturing is nothing more than a matter of opinion to be debated? You don't mind torture as long as local businesses make a few quid in the whole deal?

You are right it won't make any difference if we allow it or not, they will work around us, but we don't have to take money in from other peoples wars, especially when we claim to be a neutral country, and more importantly when we as a country claim to be against things like torture and rendition.

Using the 'someone else will get paid to do it anyway so might as well be me' excuse means you have no morals and would sell your own soul if not your childrens as well for the right price.

Please do not compare us army troops to nazis.....an insult of the highest order. As for rendition (of which there is no proof linking shannon) did it ever occur to you that this is a different type of war.....its not bastogne or monte cassino..its against cowards who strike and hide and deny women their basic rights( taliban). I choose to believe that if us troops are using our airport on their way to kill those who otherwise call us infidels well then I am happy....

Kess73

CptSternn wrote: »

We don't have to support it and it is business we can do without.

The US business to the airport that you say can be done without is currently making up between 25% and 30% of the airport's income.

Without them there would be a very real chance of the airport just going belly up in terms of being an international airport. The knock on effect of that would be horrific in the nearby Industrial/Business parks and also to Mid West region.

Johnboy1951

opinionated3 wrote: »

Please do not compare us army troops to nazis.....an insult of the highest order.

Try explaining the difference to the millions affected by the US troops and the families of those who have been murdered by indiscriminate use of arms.

As for rendition (of which there is no proof linking shannon)

I guess it depends on what you mean by proof.
Certainly it has not been publicly admitted ... but to do so would mean the practice would have to stop, due to Ireland's stated position on such things.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0903/1224303429524.html

did it ever occur to you that this is a different type of war.....its not bastogne or monte cassino..its against cowards who strike and hide and deny women their basic rights( taliban). I choose to believe that if us troops are using our airport on their way to kill those who otherwise call us infidels well then I am happy....

:eek: I can only feel sorrow for you.

MyKeyG

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Try explaining the difference to the millions affected by the US troops and the families of those who have been murdered by indiscriminate use of arms.

Or suicide bombers. Very convenient to blame it all on US troops when it suits your own agenda.

Whatever your feelings about the war to compare it to the holocaust is not just inaccurate it's immoral! It dumps on the memory of the single most horrific genocide in history.

I guess it depends on what you mean by proof.
Certainly it has not been publicly admitted ... but to do so would mean the practice would have to stop, due to Ireland's stated position on such things.

Beyond a reasonable doubt is usually what intelligent people mean by proof. Suspicion or assumption is not proof.

:eek: I can only feel sorrow for you.

I wonder how much sorrow you felt for the people of Iraq and Afghanistan before the occupation? Very little I'd say but then again it wasn't printed all over the front of the Irish times and you got to ignore it in peace.

dr.fuzzenstein

MarkR wrote: »

Argument closed by Godwin's Law

The article you're quoting contradicts your point.

wrote:

For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.[8] This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's law. It is considered poor form to raise such a comparison arbitrarily with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized corollary that any such ulterior-motive invocation of Godwin's law will be unsuccessful.[9]

Apart from that, I can only say that it has been my observation that Ireland is neutral.
At least for the right price.
I.e. "We don't want to get a bloody nose in a fight, we don't want to lose business due to silly things like morals and principals, but we do like money and are prepared to look the other way".
The previous governments assertions along the lines of "we don't have to search those planes, Dubya told us everything is alright, so we believe him" just highlights that sort of thinking.

CptSternn

MyKeyG wrote: »

Or suicide bombers. Very convenient to blame it all on US troops when it suits your own agenda.

There would be no suicide bombers in Iraq if the troops didn't invade their country. Don't forget the root cause of the strife.

Whatever your feelings about the war to compare it to the holocaust is not just inaccurate it's immoral!

So are you Irish? Are you Catholic? Then are you not aware both Popes have come out against the war and called it unjust and immoral and said it's justification is without merit? Does it matter how many people have been killed due to this invasion?

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Low end 100,000, high end 250,000 depending on whose numbers you look at. How many innocent lives need to be taken before you stop worrying about if it's PC to call it a crime on par with those killed in WW2?

It dumps on the memory of the single most horrific genocide in history.

Yes, it does. Then again would you not argue Abu Gharib was pretty horrific and will someday hold a similar place in history?

Beyond a reasonable doubt is usually what intelligent people mean by proof. Suspicion or assumption is not proof.

You are being intentionally obtuse. It has been proven in court and even reported on in the news.

I wonder how much sorrow you felt for the people of Iraq and Afghanistan before the occupation? Very little I'd say but then again it wasn't printed all over the front of the Irish times and you got to ignore it in peace.

Prior to their countries being invaded, there was no reason to feel sorry for them. If you think they we so bad off then, they why exactly are they fighting today? Because they love the changes the invasion has brought? I would say there are hundreds of thousands of people living there who currently disagree with you.

MyKeyG

CptSternn wrote: »

There would be no suicide bombers in Iraq if the troops didn't invade their country. Don't forget the root cause of the strife.

You keep on believing that The US brought war to Iraq all you want. One of my best friends was from Iraq. He arrived here long before the invasion. There's nothing you can tell me that I don't know about Iraq before the war.

So are you Irish? Are you Catholic? Then are you not aware both Popes have come out against the war and called it unjust and immoral and said it's justification is without merit? Does it matter how many people have been killed due to this invasion?

Yes I am Irish and no I'm not Catholic but we all know how Christendom leads the world on morality don't we?

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Low end 100,000, high end 250,000 depending on whose numbers you look at.

Ah yes a source of the highest dependability.

How many innocent lives need to be taken before you stop worrying about if it's PC to call it a crime on par with those killed in WW2?Yes, it does. Then again would you not argue Abu Gharib was pretty horrific and will someday hold a similar place in history?

Your continued comparison of this war to the holocaust is truly alarming.

You are being intentionally obtuse. It has been proven in court and even reported on in the news.

Obtuse already implies intention. Learn the correct context of big words before you use them. However I am not being obtuse.

Prior to their countries being invaded, there was no reason to feel sorry for them. If you think they we so bad off then, they why exactly are they fighting today? Because they love the changes the invasion has brought? I would say there are hundreds of thousands of people living there who currently disagree with you.

I'm just going to assume you're trolling now. I hope you are to be honest because it's disturbing to think there's anyone so genuinely deluded.

Clareman

Normally when Godwin's Law is invoked the thread is closed, but we left it open. I can see the merits of discussing the pros/cons of allowing US Military Aircraft using Shannon as a stop over, I can't see that the Clare Regional Forum is the place to discuss US Military activities, the Irish stance, the war on terror or the holocaust, please find other forums on here to discuss these if you wish.

Balagan

I am at a loss to know how posters would discuss the moral and financial pros and cons of the use of Shannon by military aircraft on the way to and from war zones without the subjects of the military actions of various countries, wars and history being raised.

Shannon is in Clare and the demise of Shannon would be financially catastrophic for this area more than any, but some obviously feel that allowing this present use of the airport is morally catastrophic. I largely wouldn't be in the latter camp. Saddam Hussein may have been taken out for the wrong reasons at the time but he was a murderous tyrant who needed to be removed. On the other hand, rendition is the stuff of nightmares too. It is such an emotive subject and a changing one too and it is always good to hear what other people think and why they think it and what source/reference material they have and have the subjects thrashed out.

This use of Shannon and whether we approve of it or are just turning a blind eye so that the shekels keep rolling in touches on related issues too for those who work in businesses which are dodgy or unethical or where bullying is the norm and where employees keep their mouths shut and their heads down just to keep the mortgage paid.

We haven't had many discussions here with much meat on their bones for quite a long time, maybe even going back to the heady days of Lisbon 2, and, with respect, I think it would be a pity to put very tight restrictions on this discussion, other than the usual forum charter ones.

MarkR

To continue with the discussion, would you ban all US military, for example (I don't know) army medics / support staff etc? Or just the units involved in interrogation / rendition etc?

If we do ban the lot, and the airport does wind down, or even close, would the the "No's" be happy with this. We'd have our pride etc?

LadyTBolt

I have a mixed view on this.

I am happy to see Shannon have as much business as possible and our government is supportive of the US to use Shannon as a stopover to bring troops to and from wherever. The troops who signed up to go to war are fully supportive of the cause they are fighting for even though it means they may lose their lives. Each individual on those flights have made an informed choice to go to war and to take a seat on those aircraft. I have no issue with these flights and I am happy to see such business go through Shannon instead of other Irish/European airports.

I am not comfortable however with the airport being used as a stopover for transporting prisoners to torture jails but then again there is no evidence of such flights so therefore I am of the view until there is evidence there are in fact no such flights.

What disturbs me the most above the whole debate about rendition flights and Shannon supporting such flights, is how the peaceloving protestors unlawfully use damaging force to gain access into a restricted area and violently cause thousands of euros of damage to an aircraft to make a point about their peaceful views. Such contradictive behaviour is saddening.
This behaviour does not draw peoples attention to the reason behind the protestors actions and the claim of rendition flights through Shannon but instead sends the message to people that all of these protestors are no different from the wars being fought which they are protesting against.

Violence is violence and if you are a protestor for peace hacking through the side of an aircraft with an axe you are no different from the soldier with the AK47 shooting another armed soldier in battle.

What I can gather from all of this is we have no evidence there are rendition flights through Shannon and those that believe we do would rather pick up an axe and attack an aircraft than gather hard facts and evidence and present to the people of this country the proof there are indeed prisoners being transported through Shannon.

Balagan

There is absolutely no way we will ever know if rendition flights did go through Shannon or know if they will in the future. Chances are they did and will. We simply don't want to know.

CptSternn

So many people here trying to obfuscte the topic by saying there is 'no evidence'. Obviously these people have not been following the topic on the news, or they are intentionally trying to spread misinformation. Here are a few links for ye...

CIA rendition flights did land in Ireland: Ahern

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/cia-rendition-flights-did-land-in-ireland-ahern-15032409.html

Irish Justice Minister Dermot Ahern believed at least three US flights involved in so-called extraordinary renditions landed on Irish soil, a confidential diplomatic memo reveals.

Mr Ahern's suspicions that CIA flights refuelled at Shannon Airport before or after conducting renditions prompted him to ask the US ambassador if Irish officials could conduct random inspections of aircraft.

This, he said, would “provide cover” should it ever be proven such fiercely controversial flights had passed through Ireland.

Anger at rendition flights through Shannon

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfgbgbcweysn/rss2/

HUMAN rights groups have called on the Government to introduce measures to ensure Ireland can no longer be used for illegal rendition flights, after fresh evidence emerged that US authorities operated such missions through Shannon Airport over the past decade.

A courtroom battle in New York between two private aviation companies who were contracted to carry out rendition flights by the US government has shed light on the secret airlift of suspected terrorists by CIA operatives using airports across Europe and Asia, including Shannon.

Court files show that the two parties to the lawsuit, Richmor Aviation and SportsFlight Air, which acted for US government contractor DynCorp, are in dispute over unpaid costs from rendition flights.

Richmor operated a Gulfstream jet, which is recorded landing on several occasions at Shannon between 2001 and 2005 and which was involved in the rendition of the Egyptian cleric Abu Omar.

The aircraft is suspected of having refuelled at Shannon before transporting al-Qaida member Abd al-Nashiri — the prime suspect for the bombing of a US navy ship in Yemen in 2000. The files reveal that the flight, which involved stops in Dubai, Afghanistan, London and Washington, cost $198,000 (€138,000).

Anti-war group Shannonwatch, which claims it has evidence of 20 suspected rendition flights using Shannon over an eight-year period, said such costs included profits made by Shannon Airport.

Amnesty links Shannon to rendition flights

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0624/rendition.html

Amnesty International says it has collected evidence that three aircraft involved in US rendition flights had links to Shannon Airport.

As part of a week of events to mark International Day Against Torture, the human rights group has published a report on Europe's role in rendition and secret detention.

In their latest report Amnesty International accuses a number of European states of either turning a blind eye to rendition or actively participating in it.

The report highlights six cases, three of which have links to Shannon Airport.

In the case of one man, Abu Omar, the report says the aircraft that took him from Germany to Egypt eventually returned to the US through Shannon.

In the case of another man, Khaled al-Maqtari, the report says the plane which took him from Iraq to Afghanistan had previously stopped in Shannon.

And in a third case, Amnesty says the aircraft that took Khaled el-Masri from Macedonia to Afhganistan had also stopped at Shannon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition_by_the_United_States#Ireland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendition_aircraft

To say there is no evidence is to stick your head in the sand. The most telling is the legal fight between the CIA and the private contractors who owned the planes - they gave up all the information on record in court of where the planes were located and when, which puts Ireland right there on the map.

You also have Aherns own words.

Anyone that actually thinks there is no evidence is being intentionally obtuse and trying to ignore the evidence which is out there.

But this topic is more than just the fact our government is helping to support torture and rendition, it is about an unjust, illegal war as deemed by the UN and by the Pope.

It is about the 'weapons of mass destruction' which were never found, which never existed, and the fact US oil companies are now making money hand over fist exporting that countries natural resources to America. Hundreds of thousands of civilians died to give a discount on petrol to people who drive SUVs.

No one is saying Sadaam was a good person and shouldn't have been removed, but it wasn't America who needed to do it, and they certainly had no right to invade a sovereign nation under the auspices of 'helping' to steal that countries resources.

If they really were 'helping' do you think people would still be fighting there? Who exactly is it they have been fighting since Sadaam left? Sadaam followers? Nope, average Iraqis who have a sense of national pride and see the foreign invaders for what they are, foreign invaders.

Anyone who thinks the war was about helping people is either diluting themselves or is trying to spread misinformation.

opinionated3

you quoted Dermot ahern, Shannon watch and amnesty.....that says enough for me. You say Saddam needed to be removed....if not by the us then by whom exactly? I agree with you on the wmd issue....very disappointing that nothing was found. However that is not to say that Saddam did not acquire them in the past and moved them on prior to the conflict starting. Also us combat troops have more or less left Iraq....the only fighting going on now is between Islamic factions I believe. And that is something no other nation however powerful can sort out. Those who argue against using Shannon say that new business should be acquired via humanitarian cargo facility.that is a great and noble idea but I would also argue that if these people saw us troops coming through on their way to, say, Somalia on a humanitarian mission a la 1993, they would still have a problem. There exists a palpable anti US feeling for some reason with these protesters...despite the fact that we would probably all be German speaking now if it was not for them. Burning American flags and spitting at the gardai who protect the airport (as witnessed by my father in law who worked over there) are hardly the actions of people worth quoting from. I don't mean to offend you or knock you for your opinion but that is my opinion for what its worth.

Carazy

The vandals account of what they did.
http://www.shannonwatch.org/blog/report-peaceful-act-sabotage-shannon

The Peace Act of Sabotage: The Details

“There has been a virtual media blackout of our act of peace last Tuesday morning. But for the record here is what took place.

“We were dropped off at a perimeter fence to Shannon’s warport. We quickly cut through that fence and were immediately confronted by four curious looking young cows. We bade them a good morning and went on our merry way to the second fence, which was easily breached, and into the warport proper. (By the way, rumours abound that Dr Doolittle has been called in by the Gardaí to interrogate these four innocent bystanders)

“It took a little while to get our bearings, but then we proceeded in the direction of the warport’s terminal, passing on the way a hangar where work on a passenger plane was being conducted. We regularly stopped to observe our surroundings to make sure we wouldn’t be caught.
“As we got closer to the warport terminal, we could see the shape of the plane parked out on a side runway. We approached it with caution, as we initially thought we could see people guarding it. That proved not to be the case. And although there was plenty of activity at the terminal, the area around the plane was completely deserted. Actually we all lay on the ground observing the plane and its surroundings before we decided to move in and carry out our act of sabotage.

“The only press report states we “vandalised” a plane. How can one “vandalise” a vandal? Because that is what this planes is. And it is owned by vandals, by mercenary airlines like Omni airlines, who profit from the US-led wars.
“Beforehand we agreed we would immobilise the hydraulics of all the landing gear: the metal tubes that run vertically along the shaft holding the wheels. Four sets of landing gear were sabotaged – three in the middle, one at the front. This was all pre-planned. While that peace work was being completed another peace activist sprayed the words: “PEACE – U.S. TROOPS OUT” on the side of the plane.

“We then made our retreat and were soon being ferried away from Shannon having completed a good morning’s work. We had consciously decided not to seek being arrested. It is our view that if we were to be arrested we would fight any case on the basis that our act of peace was justified. But we prefer not to have to go through the rigmarole of court cases, which would also be ignored by our very unfree press.
“Will we do it again? Perhaps. But we would honestly prefer if people would participate in public peace activities. Set up their own local peace group. Make contact with groups like the Galway Alliance Against War. Attend the vigil held the second Sunday of every month between 2-3pm at the roundabout at Shannon warport.

“Our sabotage we hope will be a bit of fillip to all those peace activists out there.
“Our first priority in this peace action was to prevent harm coming to anyone: preventing injury and death to the Afghani people by disrupting the flow of foreign soldiers into their country; preventing harm to the people working at Shannon warport and preventing harm to US troops by preventing the plane from transporting them to their deaths. These planes carry up to 300 armed US troops to the imperialist wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

“The act of peaceful sabotage we carried out was undoubtedly a symbolic gesture in the context that over 2,000,000 troops have travelled through Shannon on their way to war and we were only able to halt one plane.
“But it was an expression of our disgust at the role of successive Irish Governments being accessories to both the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and to torture – Shannon warport is intrinsically linked to so-called extraordinary rendition. The leaders of Fianna Fail, the former Progressive Democrats, the Greens and now Fine Gael and the Labour Party have blood on their hands.”

Peaceful Sabotage????? What!????

A pre-planned act of vandalism is what it was.

Thugs,cowards,vandals.
All the traits of these people for that act.

Johnboy1951

Carazy wrote: »

The vandals account of what they did.
http://www.shannonwatch.org/blog/report-peaceful-act-sabotage-shannon



Peaceful Sabotage????? What!????

A pre-planned act of vandalism is what it was.

Thugs,cowards,vandals.
All the traits of these people for that act.

Hahahaha ....... well if Bush (I think it was) can go to 'WAR for peace' I guess a few protesters can cut a some hydraulic pipes for peace :D:D

opinionated3

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Carazy wrote: »

The vandals account of what they did.
http://www.shannonwatch.org/blog/report-peaceful-act-sabotage-shannon



Peaceful Sabotage????? What!????

A pre-planned act of vandalism is what it was.

Thugs,cowards,vandals.
All the traits of these people for that act.

Hahahaha ....... well if Bush (I think it was) can go to 'WAR for peace' I guess a few protesters can cut a some hydraulic pipes for peace :D:D

Haha.....bush had more balls than the lot of them! They remind me of rejects from woodstock! Maybe they should concentrate on getting a job and trying to contribute to society rather than sponging off the state and jumping from one 'cause' to the next. Must head over to one of these Sunday protests sometime. Bring my Usmc flag.....I am sure they won't mind seeing as they are peaceful and support a free society. Or maybe they might spit my face and show themselves up for what they really are.

CptSternn

opinionated3 wrote: »

Bring my Usmc flag.....I am sure they won't mind seeing as they are peaceful and support a free society. Or maybe they might spit my face and show themselves up for what they really are.

You can't fly a US Marines flag in Ireland legally, nor can you wear your uniform. Which raises the question, why do you have either? Are you an American on here in the Clare forum voicing your views on what we do here in Ireland?

It's illegal and written in the Constitution that foreign armies are not allowed to wear their uniforms or fly their flags on Irish soil. No one has to spit on you, we can just ring the Gards and have them remove you, if you ever did show up in our country that is.

One thing that never ceases to amaze me about boards.ie and politics.ie is the number of Americans who show up and voice their opinion on our country and our laws...when they have never lived here and have no idea how our society actually works. Just because we speak english doesn't mean we like anything about America or accept any of its politics.

But please, as a person who is in the US military please continue telling us your views of the US military. I'm sure the discussion will be thrilling.

What are your views on the new legislation allowing gays in the US military?

Balagan

Can't speak for anyone else but I am perfectly happy to have Americans come on this forum and speak their minds.

Also, non-Irish and non-Catholics and anyone of any creed, race, class, size, sexual orientation and hair colour.

Bring 'em on!

opinionated3

CptSternn wrote: »

opinionated3 wrote: »

Bring my Usmc flag.....I am sure they won't mind seeing as they are peaceful and support a free society. Or maybe they might spit my face and show themselves up for what they really are.

You can't fly a US Marines flag in Ireland legally, nor can you wear your uniform. Which raises the question, why do you have either? Are you an American on here in the Clare forum voicing your views on what we do here in Ireland?

It's illegal and written in the Constitution that foreign armies are not allowed to wear their uniforms or fly their flags on Irish soil. No one has to spit on you, we can just ring the Gards and have them remove you, if you ever did show up in our country that is.

One thing that never ceases to amaze me about boards.ie and politics.ie is the number of Americans who show up and voice their opinion on our country and our laws...when they have never lived here and have no idea how our society actually works. Just because we speak english doesn't mean we like anything about America or accept any of its politics.

But please, as a person who is in the US military please continue telling us your views of the US military. I'm sure the discussion will be thrilling.

What are your views on the new legislation allowing gays in the US military?

Sorry to disappoint you and your anti American friends but I am a Clare man born and raised. I do have an avid interest in all things military and collect whatever memorabilia I can lay my hands on. As for gays in the us military...why not? As long as they can fire their weapon true and kill a few terrorists I am all for it. By the way what did that have to do with anything? Thought we were discussing a bunch of vandals breaking in to an airport and committing a crime? Surely if they can get away with that then a simple display of my personal appreciation of the US Armed forces shouldn't warrant you or the rest of your buddies calling the cops....or has it just dawned on you that not everyone on this island agrees with your viewpoint?

CptSternn

opinionated3 wrote: »

Sorry to disappoint you and your anti American friends but I am a Clare man born and raised. I do have an avid interest in all things military and collect whatever memorabilia I can lay my hands on.

So why would an Irishman keep a US Marines flag around? Seems a bit off to me.

As for gays in the us military...why not? As long as they can fire their weapon true and kill a few terrorists I am all for it. By the way what did that have to do with anything?

Because the US Marines fought for years to keep gays out, and even now that they just passed legislation letting them in, none of them are too happy with it, especially since in boot camp they normally make all sorts of anti-gay references, which now are grounds for discharge.

Thought we were discussing a bunch of vandals breaking in to an airport and committing a crime?

Depends on your view. Last time the jurors let them walk due to the fact in Ireland it is legal to stop an unjust war, if you remember correctly.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/77460

Surely if they can get away with that then a simple display of my personal appreciation of the US Armed forces shouldn't warrant you or the rest of your buddies calling the cops....or has it just dawned on you that not everyone on this island agrees with your viewpoint?

Nope, enough here would favour Irish law above that of any other law and the Irish military above that of a foreign nation, which again makes me wonder why exactly you are so pro-American to the point you favour their country, its former leader, and their laws over the country you claim to be from.

golfball37

opinionated3 wrote: »

Please do not compare us army troops to nazis.....an insult of the highest order. As for rendition (of which there is no proof linking shannon) did it ever occur to you that this is a different type of war.....its not bastogne or monte cassino..its against cowards who strike and hide and deny women their basic rights( taliban). I choose to believe that if us troops are using our airport on their way to kill those who otherwise call us infidels well then I am happy....

I probably agree with you on the war etc but to say there's been no proof of rendition at Shannon is just misleading.

A cleaner from Noonans swore an affadavit saying she saw a man chained inside one of the planes. It was very embarrassing for the govt.

LadyTBolt

golfball37 wrote: »

A cleaner from Noonans swore an affadavit saying she saw a man chained inside one of the planes.

Can you back this statement up with proof?

I find it difficult to believe the US government operating rendition flights would allow a civilian on board an aircraft with a prisoner on board.

CptSternn

The only evidence you need is the US court documents.

They have admitted they had rendition flights, this is not disputed.

The planes used are now widely known, this is not disputed.

Thanks to the court case over how much a private defence contractor should be paid, the routes they used are no longer secret, nor are they disputed.

How anyone can still say there is no proof is beyond me.

opinionated3

Unjust war? That depends on your point of view. I think the sizeable amount of Irish people are happy to see the removal of the Taliban in Afghanistan as they were the removal of Saddam. You also brought up the point of the Irish people respecting their own law and military ahead of other nations....that is fine but bear in mind it is the same military that has to guard our airport against these vandals wasting mine and other Irish taxpayers money. I think this simply boils down to blatant anti Americanism....why don't you protest against Islamic fundamentalism....or is that too touchy a subject? Way easier to castigate the whole American nation rather than risk a fatwah from some lunatic in Yemen.....

LadyTBolt

CptSternn wrote: »

The only evidence you need is the US court documents.

They have admitted they had rendition flights, this is not disputed.

The planes used are now widely known, this is not disputed.

Thanks to the court case over how much a private defence contractor should be paid, the routes they used are no longer secret, nor are they disputed.

How anyone can still say there is no proof is beyond me.

Would you mind sending me on the links or where I can find the literature on this, I would be very interested to learn about this

Carazy

golfball37 wrote: »

A cleaner from Noonans swore an affadavit saying she saw a man chained inside one of the planes. It was very embarrassing for the govt.

Proof??? Reports/Interviews etc. on this statement golfball37 please as I for one don't believe it for one second.

CptSternn

LadyTBolt wrote: »

Would you mind sending me on the links or where I can find the literature on this, I would be very interested to learn about this

Check the links I posted in this very thread the page previous to this one.

juan.kerr

These bloody hippies should be shot.

CptSternn

opinionated3 wrote: »

Unjust war? That depends on your point of view. I think the sizeable amount of Irish people are happy to see the removal of the Taliban in Afghanistan as they were the removal of Saddam. You also brought up the point of the Irish people respecting their own law and military ahead of other nations....that is fine but bear in mind it is the same military that has to guard our airport against these vandals wasting mine and other Irish taxpayers money. I think this simply boils down to blatant anti Americanism....why don't you protest against Islamic fundamentalism....or is that too touchy a subject? Way easier to castigate the whole American nation rather than risk a fatwah from some lunatic in Yemen.....

Unjust as ruled by the UN and the Pope. So if you are looking for a worldwide consensus, you have it. If you are looking for a religious authority to say it, again you have it. Depends on who you take your cues from, but also the Irish government as they denounced the war as we talked about earlier and technically we are supposed to be neutral as we as a country do not support the war.

Americans don't 'guard' our airports or any other part of our nation. We have our own police force and standing army. To try and say we 'need' Americans to protect us is ludicrous, and an insult to our country. I have friends currently stationed in Africa that are part of our Army. They do a damn good job and I would say before you go online saying such things, maybe find one of our own fine lads and tell them your thoughts on this, as I am sure they would be happy to give you their opinion on the subject.

Your strawman argument regarding anti-Americanism is laughable and a poor attempt to deride the discussion at hand. You can be against the war in Iraq and still like Americans, they are not mutually exclusive positions. That's the same poor and tired argument people who claim anyone who supports the Palestinians is somehow anti-Semitic.

Per your question about Islamic fundamentalists, guess what? They don't bother us here in Ireland as we don't bother them. And again, another argumental fallacy in an attempt to change the topic. One thing you should know is our government recognises Hezbollah. Our government recognises Hamas. Our government supports these groups, sends funding, and even has representatives in our country for state sponsored events. America calls them 'terrorists', we call them foreign dignitaries. They have never bothered us in any way shape or form and we have been getting along fine for years. Do you really think those groups or any other 'radical' groups are just going to attack for no reason? America gives them a reason by invading other countries, countries where these people live. They also support Israel and send billions a year in weapons to be used against Palestinians. Our government condemns those actions and if you remember just two years ago our government DID stop the US from sending weapons to Lebanon as even our most conservative leaders in the Dail still took the side of the oppressed. Are you not aware of your own nations history? It wasn't too long ago we ourselves were under occupation and the very groups above helped us, your relatives, fight for independence. A Fatwa will never be issued against us here as long as we continue to have diplomatic relations with the same groups.

Here is a fun little factoid for you that will blow your mind - I lived in America for many years, have duel citizenship, and *GASP* was IN the US military, the Navy to be precise. So if anyone has the right to say things about the US military, it's me.

Balagan

Oh, please get a grip. You seem to think you are writing here to a bunch of people who don't listen to the news with their own ears or read with their own eyes and whose mindset is somewhere back in the 1950s.

The UN is entirely impotent. Don't tell me what it says. Are you with those who sit and listen in the General Assembly when Ahmadinejad is given a platform for his lies? I am firmly with those who walk out.

The Pope's opinion? Are you joking? Tell that to those who, as children, were had at by priests who were, in turn, sheltered by other priests and bishops and popes. Tell that to their families and children and grandchildren who bear the scars of the dysfunction and pain which the abuse caused and who had their faith shredded. Tell them about the moral foundation on which the Pope's opinion on anything stands.

Our government recognizes Hamas You are right. Hamas is enslaving the Palestinians, condemning them to a life of poverty. Damn right our government recognizes them. Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile. No fear our government would tell the Palestinians not be having truck with that violent pack who are holding them back and instead be brave and vote, at whatever cost, for those who would help them find a way through to peace and some prosperity. In addition, Hamas curtails the education of girls, assaults gays, throws those who oppose it off high buildings, burns Christian libraries. What exactly does our government respect about Hamas?

Hezbollah is funded by Iran. No doubt you think Iran is a brave country, defending its people and standing up to Israel/America. What do you care about how it abuses its people and threatens world stability? But no doubt you think the greatest threat to world stability is Israel, right?

What do you care about the torture in Syria? Who will do anything for the thousands killed and tortured there? The UN? Not on your life. And America is now too broke to do anything there, so you need not worry about that.

You seem to think that Ireland's recognition of Hamas and Hezbollah is something to be proud of and that it helps us avoid attack. I certainly don't want Ireland attacked but if the price it has to pay for protection is to lay down (diplomatic relations as you put it) with wolves like Hamas and Hezbollah, then I am certainly not proud.

The twin towers had barely hit the ground before Ireland started to grow such a storm of hatred for America. We almost match the Islamic fundamentalists in hatred for America (not American money mind you) but, thankfully, we just talk.

And, as for us not needing American protection and help and us having our own army. Give me strength. It wouldn't take an Islamic fundamentalist threat of an attack, or heaven forbid, an actual attack, to have us grind to a halt. All that's needed would be a good week of snow and ice and this country is at a complete standstill.

Ah no, anything happens here and its the Americans who will be helping us out, along with our former 'occupiers', the British. And I would be happy to accept their helping hand if that happens. In the meantime, I hope the British keep nice to us and bail us out a bit more and that the Americans keep their extraordinary rendition flights out of here but send us a whole heap of multinational companies so that we can have a bit of money and keep our kids in the country and dandle our grandkiddies, when they arrive, on our knees.

Clareman

This thread has gone past being a debate relating to Shannon airport, or county Clare, or the Mid-West region, please feel free to start another thread on other areas if you want to debate the merits/validity of the US activity around the world.

As always, if you think i am being harsh in locking the thread feel free to PM me, other mods, CMods, open a thread in feedback/helpdesk.