Thousands of dead pensioners paid €18m in benefits

leonidas83

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/thousands-of-dead-pensioners-paid-euro18m-in-benefits-2975364.html

MORE than €18m was paid out in pensions during the past two years to people who were dead, the Irish Independent has learned.
Nearly 10,000 'phantom pensioners' were only discovered when the Department of Social Protection cross-checked its pension payments against the death records held by the General Register Office.

The pension payments were made largely because there is a three-month 'grace period' after a person's death before the next of kin is legally obliged to inform the department so that it can cancel the pension.

But in some cases, relatives or friends deliberately set out to defraud the State by continuing to claim a pension after a death.

In the most extreme cases, pensions had been paid for more than two decades after the person had died.

One of the cases in the past two years concerned a family member who continued to collect the pension for their dead relative for two years, gathering €30,000 in total.

According to figures supplied by the department and the state spending watchdog, there were total "overpayments" of €10.6m in 2009 and at least €7.8m last year.

In total, payments were made in respect of 9,850 dead pensioners over the two years.

The department has legal powers to demand repayment from relatives or friends who have claimed pensions for those who have died.

However, there were no figures available on how much of the €18.4m that was erroneously paid out in the past two years has since been successfully reclaimed.

The department blamed the lack of accurate information on "shortcomings" in its records.

However, it said that more than €7m had been recovered from the estates of dead pensioners in recent years.

The department is now getting immediate notification of deaths from the General Registrar's Office as soon as a person's death is registered. A spokesperson said this would prevent large-scale fraud in the future.

However, families still have up to three months to register a death, which means erroneous payments are likely to continue, at least for short periods of time.

The focus on 'phantom pensioners' has increased following a number of recent high-profile court cases.

Last year, a judge described as "amazing" the ease with which an elderly man had been able to claim a dead friend's pension for 23 years.

Patrick McLoughlin (66), from Ballyfermot in Dublin, was given a three-year suspended sentence after defrauding the State of more than €136,000.

The fraud was only discovered because welfare staff were preparing to make the "presidential centenarian bounty payment" to McLoughlin's deceased friend, Gerry Donnelly, whose 100th birthday would have been in April 2007. Mr Donnelly had died in 1984.

McLoughlin was arrested in June 2007 after gardai viewed CCTV footage of him collecting Mr Donnelly's pension.

An Post, which made the payments, repaid the Department of Social Protection. McLoughlin has committed to repay An Post at the rate of €40 a week.

Separately, it emerged yesterday that there has been a sharp rise in social welfare tip-offs for suspected fraud.

Tip-offs

Anonymous tip-offs to the Department of Social Protection increased from about 600 in 2005 to more than 16,000 this year.

Complaints have crept up gradually since the recession began, but increased six-fold between 2008 and 2009 to reach 6,429. That figure then doubled in 2010, before reaching 16,142 by the end of November.

Full figures for this year are not yet available.

Of the 16,142 complaints:

- Over 7,000 were about claimants allegedly getting unemployment benefits while still in work.

- 4,312 were about alleged breaches of the cohabitation rules for single parents.

- 830 focussed on people suspected of claiming benefits while living outside Ireland.

Welfare payments cannot be stopped because of an anonymous report. However, such tip-offs can lead to a review of a person's entitlements to benefits.

This year, more than 12,000 of the tip-offs were sent for further examination, while almost 4,000 were dismissed due to a lack of information or because no welfare payment was actually being made.



Apologies if this thread has been done already but this is going beyond a joke now, what are these so called workers doing in the department of social protection and others? makes my blood boil when their cutting rates for disability payments

pawrick

Everyone should be micro chipped and scanned at the counters! Extream reaction aside however.

Incompetent systems scammed by ordinary Irish people is not news. We've shown as a nation that if a weakness is found in a system we will attempt to exploit it legally or illegally. Not just an Irish problem however as the exact same was reported in the past year or two as happening in Japan.

According to the article they are finally linking up their systems which is a step in the right direction and should have been done a long time ago, hopefully this cuts down on the fraud (the 3 month grace period should also be reduced).

Head The Wall

Yet another reason the govt needs to invest in proper databases and systems and stop using fecking paperwork. This is simple stuff to be thinking of, how many months has it been since we found out that SW were paying prisoners dole while in prison because they only "faxed" records 2 or 3 times a year

HellFireClub

Paying pensions to dead people, only in Ireland. This highlights the kind of shocking stupidity that goes on within the Irish public service, where not a single manager could demonstrate bit of initiative on behalf of the taxpayer and hook up information on deaths from the General Registrars Office, with the the key information used by the Dept. of Social protection.

And yet again, nobody is at fault for this, nobody is responsible or culpable, whoever should have been responsible for "managing" this, will still get their automatic yearly increment as per benchmarking I & II and the Croke Park Agreement, will anyone have to even explain their failings in this regard when their yearly review comes up again?!?

spurious

Patrick McLoughlin (66), from Ballyfermot in Dublin, was given a three-year suspended sentence after defrauding the State of more than €136,000.

<snip>
McLoughlin has committed to repay An Post at the rate of €40 a week.

He must be expecting to live a while.

Surely in this day and age, cross-checking basic info to at a minimum stop payments to dead people is a simple thing?

Cavehill Red

Oh, and there was me thinking that our economic woes were all the fault of evil unemployed people fraudulently claiming benefits and single mums.
Can we have a dozen threads wishing raining fire on the heads of dead pensioners now too? Ta.

amacachi

spurious wrote: »

He must be expecting to live a while.

Surely in this day and age, cross-checking basic info to at a minimum stop payments to dead people is a simple thing?

I would've thought something similar checking PRSI against social welfare claims, they don't seem to do that either.

mikemac1

How is it that Revenue are so efficient, very helpful when you call them and they have ROS and PAYE Anytime. Super systems

But Social Protection are plagued with these stories and blame their records and systems

Can we move a few Revenue officers across to Social Protection to kick ass and modernize?

monkeypants

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Can we have a dozen threads wishing raining fire on the heads of dead pensioners now too? Ta.

Why? It's not like it was them that claimed it. They were dead.
It was the families, who may have been employed/unemployed, we don't know, but I suspect the latter as I'm sure it takes time to go down and claim it.
Misleading title to be honest. The dead pensioners weren't paid anything.

BlaasForRafa

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Oh, and there was me thinking that our economic woes were all the fault of evil unemployed people fraudulently claiming benefits and single mums.
Can we have a dozen threads wishing raining fire on the heads of dead pensioners now too? Ta.

calm down there skippy. Do you think its ok to have inefficient systems which pay out benefits that shouldn't be paid out? Do you think its ok for people to defraud the state (and by extension taxpayers) just because the amounts are individually fairly small?

All the "small" amounts add up to a whole lot and contribute to the hole that this country is in.

ardmacha

How is it that Revenue are so efficient, very helpful when you call them and they have ROS and PAYE Anytime. Super systems

But Social Protection are plagued with these stories and blame their records and systems

Exactly. People are always on here ranting about "unions" and the CPA. But some parts of the public service can do a reasonable job and others parts with the same union agreements cannot. Likewise some local authorities are relatively efficient and others not. If every section could be brought to the level of the most efficient section then there would be a major improvement.

There is a small problem that database, analytics and business intelligence experts in the PS are drifting out to the private sector where salaries for these skills continue to rise. Who could blame them, since in their present jobs the mob (who almost entirely lack these skills) is howling for their salaries to halved when they are already not very competitive.

Maura74

This has been going in the UK for many years....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1430427/200m-lost-in-pension-fraud-as-families-fail-to-report-deaths.html

cannot understand it myself when there is technology like this available...

http://www.breathingearth.net/

The_Thing

HellFireClub wrote: »

.....
And yet again, nobody is at fault for this, nobody is responsible or culpable, whoever should have been responsible for "managing" this, will still get their automatic yearly increment as per benchmarking I & II and the Croke Park Agreement, will anyone have to even explain their failings in this regard when their yearly review comes up again?!?

Not true, many of these government employees will already be at the top of their grade.

The Internet Explorer

Laugh out loud. Laugh out loud in absolute despair.

The_Thing

The Internet Explorer wrote: »

Laugh out loud. Laugh out loud in absolute despair.

I think it's better the citizens of Ireland swindle the Government out of this 18 million than some anonymous bond-holder.

Icepick

Maura74 wrote: »

This has been going in the UK for many years....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1430427/200m-lost-in-pension-fraud-as-families-fail-to-report-deaths.html

So Ireland is only 8 years behind the UK now?
sweet

SHOVELLER

The obvious question here is why the department did not have access to the GRO before now. But as usual nobody will take responsibility. The incompetence at the top level of that department is shocking.

Grace period? We cannot afford this luxury.

gandalf

HellFireClub wrote: »

Paying pensions to dead people, only in Ireland.

As pointed out already this is and has happened in the UK and we and the English are in the Vauxhall Conference compared to the Premier League in Japan

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2010/09/pensions

Apparently they have a quarter of a million centenarians who are "missing".

What it does show is the desperate need for all organs of the Public Service to have a universal ID for citizens who are in the system. That way anomalies like people who are dead getting a pension can be stopped once a death certificate is issued.

Then we could also look at tapering child benefit down if you went above a certain income threshold so that those who really need it get it which should be easy if Revenue and Social Protections systems are talking.

mikemac1

HellFireClub wrote: »

where not a single manager could demonstrate bit of initiative on behalf of the taxpayer and hook up information on deaths from the General Registrars Office, with the the key information used by the Dept. of Social protection.

Well I'm no manager

But just thinking about it, seems so obvious some bright spark in Social Protection could have done it and gotten an easy promotion

Or maybe things don't work like that
But as you said, just some initiative

n97 mini

It's not quite as bad as it seems. Once the Dept is told of the death (by way of a Death Cert from the Executor), all payments made since the date of death are automatically fished back out of the bank account they were paid into, no questions asked.

My own personal experience of the staff in the relevant Depts is that they couldn't have been nicer or more understanding, but they are also very much on the ball. If you haven't returned money you owe, they will gently remind you occasionally.

Maura74

It is not just pensions that is continued to be paid out the greedy families when an parent dies, it is also the free TV license, fuel allowance, rental of telephone and medical card ie free prescriptions, water rates and whatever that person got while being a pensioner....

NIMAN

Can family members be done for fraud in these cases?

ShooterSF

Theft of 130k and it results in a suspended sentence. What a joke, some warning that is. And now he will still get tax payers money to pay back a tiny portion and to spend on himself. Lost for words.

WalterMitty

I know of a person who still uses their childs free travel pass to go on holidays on trains and buses all over the country. The Child got it for a mild disability in past, but the disability in no way stopped the child going to college (where they still claimed disability depite the disability not affecting their ability to work or study in any way due to advances in medical technology) The child is now in 20s and working away.

jbkenn

The_Thing wrote: »

I think it's better the citizens of Ireland swindle the Government out of this 18 million than some anonymous bond-holder.

The problem, The_Thing, is the Government has no money, it has borrowed money, which the taxpayers have to repay, and taxpayer money, so these fraudsters did'nt defraud the Government, they defrauded you., can you grasp this basic fact?.

NIMAN

jbkenn wrote: »

The problem, The_Thing, is the Government has no money, it has borrowed money, which the taxpayers have to repay, and taxpayer money, so these fraudsters did'nt defraud the Government, they defrauded you., can you grasp this basic fact?.

Maybe people are starting to understand this, and might explain why the amount of anonymous tip-offs to Revenue, Benefits offices etc are rocketing as mentioned in the media the last few days.

Maura74

I know of a family that lived at the other end of their family home and that sibling and family benefitted from all the allowances that allocated to the elderly parent as a pensioners.

This included free TV Licenses and fuel allowance free line rental all the connection line up in the sibling home with just a hallway dividing them form the parent. Also the sibling and family lived rent free as they built their home on the parent ground on a piecemeal basis.

Also the sibling got carers allowances for caring, but was out working and was taking the entire parent pension and only gave back what the sibling wife decided to give the parent back from pension. The parent was housebound and did not need much as the money could not be spent due to not being able to get out of the home without help. The sibling and his family living the end of her home was in total control of elderly parent.

Nothing much could be done as the parent was of sound mind and also lived in the country with not much transport and wanted the sibling and family living nearby.

I can assure you when the parent died that family lost every benefit that they were getting from the state but they took all of the estate because they lived there for so long.

So you see it goes on long before the pensioner has passed away.

Dannyboy83

ardmacha wrote: »

Some parts of the public service can do a reasonable job and others parts with the same union agreements cannot. Likewise some local authorities are relatively efficient and others not.
If every section could be brought to the level of the most efficient section then there would be a major improvement.

Agree.
But Revenue are the exception - they operate at a high standard, while most of the other organisations operate at a much lower standard.

If we could even just bring the 2 most expensive departments (Social Protection, Health) up to even half the same standard as revenue, that would be a major achievement.

Anecdotal, but I cannot remember the last time Revenue were in the media due to some scandal, whereas Social Protection and Health are in the media on a weekly basis due to scandals and screw ups.

There is a small problem that database, analytics and business intelligence experts in the PS are drifting out to the private sector where salaries for these skills continue to rise. Who could blame them, since in their present jobs the mob (who almost entirely lack these skills) is howling for their salaries to halved when they are already not very competitive.

Disagree.
This is most definitely not the explanation, based on those I've spoken to.
The real reason at the most fundamental level is a cultural difference, but you already knew that anyway.
The Department of Social Protection are an utter abomination, as were all connected entities e.g. FAS.

You cannot refine "sh1t". It will always remain "sh1t".
At least there is a plan with fixing our Health system - i.e. FairCare.
There is no such plan for Social Protection.
Yet this department, above all others, requires a fundamental rethink from the absolute core.

Draft in some experienced managers from Revenue, then look to adopting a proven system, such as Hartz IV in Germany.
The Irish system is simply not fit for purpose.

Dannyboy83

gandalf wrote: »

As pointed out already this is and has happened in the UK and we and the English are in the Vauxhall Conference compared to the Premier League in Japan

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2010/09/pensions

Apparently they have a quarter of a million centenarians who are "missing".

How would we compare on a per head basis tho?

I mean, if I have a flock of 70 million sheep, then it's very easy to lose a few hundred thousand here and there.

But if your flock is a mere 3.5 million, yet you're still losing an equal number, something would seem to be very wrong.

What it does show is the desperate need for all organs of the Public Service to have a universal ID for citizens who are in the system. That way anomalies like people who are dead getting a pension can be stopped once a death certificate is issued.

Then we could also look at tapering child benefit down if you went above a certain income threshold so that those who really need it get it which should be easy if Revenue and Social Protections systems are talking.

Agree.

Icepick

mikemac1 wrote: »

But just thinking about it, seems so obvious some bright spark in Social Protection could have done it and gotten an easy promotion

But why should they do it when they get pay increases regardless?

The_Thing

jbkenn wrote: »

The problem, The_Thing, is the Government has no money, it has borrowed money, which the taxpayers have to repay, and taxpayer money, so these fraudsters did'nt defraud the Government, they defrauded you., can you grasp this basic fact?.

I'm well able to grasp the basic facts.

I personally wouldn't do it because I feel it sullies the memory of the deceased, but until I see the likes of Seanie Fitz, David Drumm and the rest of them hauled into court I will not condemn anyone for doing this. Some of it at least will have been spent in the local economy unlike the billions pissed away on the banks

HellFireClub

gandalf wrote: »

As pointed out already this is and has happened in the UK and we and the English are in the Vauxhall Conference compared to the Premier League in Japan

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2010/09/pensions

Apparently they have a quarter of a million centenarians who are "missing".

What it does show is the desperate need for all organs of the Public Service to have a universal ID for citizens who are in the system. That way anomalies like people who are dead getting a pension can be stopped once a death certificate is issued.

Then we could also look at tapering child benefit down if you went above a certain income threshold so that those who really need it get it which should be easy if Revenue and Social Protections systems are talking.

Just because they can't get it right in the UK, is that really any excuse at all for us making an utter balls of it over here???

This thing in Ireland of us always comparing ourselves to something worse and then congratulating ourselves for not being nearly as incompetent as "them over there", while we are in an IMF bailout program, yet still paying out money to dead people because our civil servants can't even tick the basic boxes, such as only paying tax payers money to people who still alive, this is why we are where we are, because of this hopelessly defective mindset, that sets out to tell us to relieve ourselves and not worry, because some other nation is making an even bigger balls of the same problem as we are?!?!?

AlekSmart

mikemac1 wrote: »

How is it that Revenue are so efficient, very helpful when you call them and they have ROS and PAYE Anytime. Super systems

But Social Protection are plagued with these stories and blame their records and systems

Can we move a few Revenue officers across to Social Protection to kick ass and modernize?

There may well be other factors at play here....

Revenue,bless them,are totally focused upon generating...well...REVENUE for the State,most of which is then dispensed back out to the po' folks by the DSP.

The two Departments just could not be more differently focused !

Reallocating hi-performing Revenue staff to kick the DSP's ass would be easy-peasy,however if those officials were to ply their trade effectively within the DSP,then we would see a HUGE reduction in Private Rented Accomodation Allowance,JSB,Lone Parents Allowance and a significant chunk off the Disability Allowance budget by the simple expedient of Information Sharing.

It's not black magic,it would only serve to electronically catch what every DSP Welfare Officer and Inspector knows damn well is going on.

I recall at least one RTE Prime-Time special on the issue,which featured lots of hard work by individual DSP Inspectors which then was allowed to fizzle out due to "issues" surrounding Inspectors gaining access to premises and witnesses suddenly becoming forgetful....;)

However,with the country balanced on a knife-edge in social terms,I suspect a very high-level decision has been taken to keep the pot from boiling over...ie: keep the po' folks in Beer n Crisps and at least they won't congregate outside Leinster House with malice in their hearts.

It really is easier to target the middle income,contributing classes,as generally speaking they comply.

paky

i dont care. there was a weakness in the system and he exposed it. fair play to him. with 136 grand, i'd be gone straight to the canaries for a winter break

Maura74

HellFireClub wrote: »

Just because they can't get it right in the UK, is that really any excuse at all for us making an utter balls of it over here???

This thing in Ireland of us always comparing ourselves to something worse and then congratulating ourselves for not being nearly as incompetent as "them over there", while we are in an IMF bailout program, yet still paying out money to dead people because our civil servants can't even tick the basic boxes, such as only paying tax payers money to people who still alive, this is why we are where we are, because of this hopelessly defective mindset, that sets out to tell us to relieve ourselves and not worry, because some other nation is making an even bigger balls of the same problem as we are?!?!?

Also considering the UK has 70 million people and Ireland is a much smaller country about the same size population as London 6 million surly with such a small country they should nearly get all the basic boxes ticked correctly. :(:eek:

Ellis Dee

It's a drop in the ocean compared with what we're having to fork out to save the banks and keep the trough that politicians snout well filled.:)

Anyway, if the money was paid to dead pensioners, as stated in the heading, fair dues to them if they managed to spend it in spite of their obvious handicap, i.e. their deceased status.:rolleyes:

Anyway, how hard is it to introduce a national system of personal numbers, as used in the Nordic region and numerous other countries, and have everything to do with the authorities and a person's dealings with them linked up?

When I kick the bucket, the number that will have to go onto my death certificate will be automatically relayed to the population register, the passport office, the health care and hospital authorities, the post office, the company that pays my pension ...

The authorities in Ireland can only blame themselves if they make it easy for people to defraud them.:cool:

Count Dooku

ardmacha wrote: »

Exactly. People are always on here ranting about "unions" and the CPA. But some parts of the public service can do a reasonable job and others parts with the same union agreements cannot.

Usually depends how militant local CPSU shop steward is
Fingerprint system that cost €20m lying idle

The Automated Fingerprint Integrated System (AFIS) was announced in 2005 and €18m was initially set aside for its installation by 2006. It is in place in the Garda National Bureau of Immigration (GNBI) offices in Burgh Quay in Dublin city centre and has cost a considerable amount of extra money to keep it operational even though it has never been used.

Civilian staff hired by the garda were expected to use the system but the 50 staff at the GNIB headquarters, who are members of the Civil and Public Service Union (CPSU), have refused to operate it, saying it is inappropriate for clerical staff to do a job that gardai should do.

ardmacha

I think you'll find that the militant shop steward thrives where management is incompetent.

Avatarr

Apologies if this thread has been done already but this is going beyond a joke now, what are these so called workers doing in the department of social protection and others? makes my blood boil when their cutting rates for disability payments[/QUOTE]



This is the problem in Ireland, we get outraged over things, that in the grander scheme of things do not matter. Remember we are talking about 18million, if you want to get outraged, why not get outraged about the decision to pay €727 million to unsecured, non-guaranteed bondholders on 2 November or maybe the €2.8 billion due to be paid in 2012, all of this money to Anglo bond holders.

Dannyboy83

This is the problem in Ireland, we get outraged over things, that in the grander scheme of things do not matter. Remember we are talking about 18million, if you want to get outraged, why not get outraged about the decision to pay €727 million to unsecured, non-guaranteed bondholders on 2 November or maybe the €2.8 billion due to be paid in 2012, all of this money to Anglo bond holders.

Because we don't have a choice with paying those bondholders;
We do have a choice with preventing fraud/theft.

murphaph

The_Thing wrote: »

I'm well able to grasp the basic facts.

I personally wouldn't do it because I feel it sullies the memory of the deceased, but until I see the likes of Seanie Fitz, David Drumm and the rest of them hauled into court I will not condemn anyone for doing this. Some of it at least will have been spent in the local economy unlike the billions pissed away on the banks

The money would still have been spent in the local economy by TAXPAYERS who wouldn't have had to pay as much tax to cover the fraud in the first place! Your logic is warped tbh.

Hotblack Desiato

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Agree.
But Revenue are the exception - they operate at a high standard, while most of the other organisations operate at a much lower standard.
...
The real reason at the most fundamental level is a cultural difference, but you already knew that anyway.
The Department of Social Protection are an utter abomination, as were all connected entities e.g. FAS.

There is definitely a cultural difference between civil service departments. The promotion/recruitment systems in existence help to explain this.

Back when promotions still existed in the Civil Service*, there were 2 systems - 'internal' and 'external'.

Vacancies arising in a Department were assigned as 'internal' or 'external' (or to be filled by transfer) by a system of arcane rules.

Internal promotion used to be largely on the basis of seniority. Once upon a time it was more or less assured that if you sat tight and didn't dirty your bib for enough years (maybe 20) you would get a promotion on seniority. This was gradually phased out, and finally abolished as part of the first benchmarking, so internal promotions were then done by competitive interview.

There were also the 'external' vacancies, to be filled by interdepartmental competition (and in certain grades, these competitions were open to the public.) You would get literally thousands of civil servants going to the RDS to do exams every couple of years, batches of the most successful candidates would then be interviewed and put on a 'panel' which would last for a certain time, vacancies arising within that time would be filled from the panel, but if you were still on the panel when it expired you had to start again from scratch.

The interdepartmental process was the only way of advancing up the career ladder at anything faster than a snail's pace. Competition was keen. Anyone working in DSW/DSP offered a promotion out of there took it. But often someone offered a promotion would be offered their choice of 2/3 vacancies in various departments, given the choice no-one outside the DSW/DSP would choose the DSW/DSP one. Its reputation preceded it.

I know someone who worked in DSP, were promoted out to another Department, in a subsequent competition was offered a further promotion back in DSP but turned it down rather than go back there.


* for promotions to happen, vacancies had to be filled. The expression used in places where promotion outlets were particularly few, was that one was awaiting the 'dead man's shoes'. Even the dead man's shoes don't get filled now!

marknjb

a post office worker drew down my grandmothers pension for years only got caught when someone from head office called out to see her about being 100 .he arrived at my aunts house to see her my aunt did not know what was going on she had been dead for 12 year. it never went to court
he had to sell some land and pay back the money

Hotblack Desiato

WTF?? If the only thing that happens to you when caught stealing is having to give back what you stole, you are not being punished at all. What deterrent is that to anyone else? Sure might as well chance it as you probably won't get caught, and not much will happen even if you are :mad:

Dai John

How come they pay out all this money to dead people when I am alive and they are delaying paying me my old age pension ? It's overdue and have been fully compliant.