"Atheists are just as intolerant, if not more so, than most religious" - discuss

darkman2

First of all - Happy Christmas!:D


Just wondering do you agree with the title statement that Atheists are, far from being of a new more informed age, in fact more intolerant of others beliefs then among the religious faithful? i.e that atheists are condescending and dismissive of people with whatever religious belief be it Christian, Muslim, Jewish etc. FWIW I regard myself, like most, as Catholic with a small "c" so don't have any particular axe to grind. I do see the merit in the observation though.

Ellis Dee

Yes indeed, remember the 30 Years War between the Swedish and the German atheists and their respective allies, just one example of all the wars that have been fought between atheists of different stripes in an effort to make the other accept their way of not believing anything ... It got pretty nasty between those Green and Orange atheists in the Six Counties for a while there, too. And only today some Afghan atheists set off a bomb that killed at least twenty people who did not disbelieve in the same way as themselves. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

darkman2

hmmm could it be Atheism is not popular enough yet to attract the nuts? TBH I CAN see Atheist terrorism in the future too. Religious followers don't have a monopoly on that minority I assure you.

J C

darkman2 wrote: »

First of all - Happy Christmas!:D


Just wondering do you agree with the title statement that Atheists are, far from being of a new more informed age, in fact more intolerant of others beliefs then among the religious faithful? i.e that atheists are condescending and dismissive of people with whatever religious belief be it Christian, Muslim, Jewish etc. FWIW I regard myself, like most, as Catholic with a small "c" so don't have any particular axe to grind. I do see the merit in the observation though.

Atheists are Human Beings ... and, like all other Humans, they are capable all of the vices and virtues of Humanity.
Many Atheists are open-minded highly intelligent people ... and some are closed-minded, with a stereotypical view of Theists ... as people of blind faith.
The reality is that both Theists and Atheists are people of faith (in God ... and in the non-existence of God respectively) ... and the only ultimate difference between them is the letter 'A' !!!!:)

Zombrex

darkman2 wrote: »

First of all - Happy Christmas!:D


Just wondering do you agree with the title statement that Atheists are, far from being of a new more informed age, in fact more intolerant of others beliefs then among the religious faithful? i.e that atheists are condescending and dismissive of people with whatever religious belief be it Christian, Muslim, Jewish etc. FWIW I regard myself, like most, as Catholic with a small "c" so don't have any particular axe to grind. I do see the merit in the observation though.

Well there are a number of points to address.

The first obvious one is that being condescending and dismissive of religious beliefs is not in of itself intolerance. You can tolerate the existence of something while at the same time being dismissive of it. Respecting a persons right to hold a belief is not the same as respecting the belief.

Secondly I think a lot of atheists, including myself, are very dismissive and condescending to religious beliefs, particularly the irrational nonsensical loops religious followers use to justify their religious beliefs.

In this PC post modern new-Labour don't offend anyone world this notion that we have no method to judge if a belief is stupid or not has developed, so we must be mindful not to respect all beliefs. This is nonsense. Some beliefs are stupid and can be demonstrated to be stupid.

So no, I don't think atheists are as (or more) intolerant than most religions but yes they are certainly happy to call a spade a spade and say that religious beliefs are stupid and irrational.

They are also though more than happy to explain why to any theist brave and open minded enough to go ask them.

coffee_cake

then most religious what

J C

Zombrex wrote: »

Well there are a number of points to address.

The first obvious one is that being condescending and dismissive of religious beliefs is not in of itself intolerance. You can tolerate the existence of something while at the same time being dismissive of it. Respecting a persons right to hold a belief is not the same as respecting the belief.

Secondly I think a lot of atheists, including myself, are very dismissive and condescending to religious beliefs, particularly the irrational nonsensical loops religious followers use to justify their religious beliefs.

In this PC post modern new-Labour don't offend anyone world this notion that we have no method to judge if a belief is stupid or not has developed, so we must be mindful not to respect all beliefs. This is nonsense. Some beliefs are stupid and can be demonstrated to be stupid.

So no, I don't think atheists are as (or more) intolerant than most religions but yes they are certainly happy to call a spade a spade and say that religious beliefs are stupid and irrational.

They are also though more than happy to explain why to any theist brave and open minded enough to go ask them.

I too share your belief in a bit of frank talking ... but I have found that, in general, Atheists react to frank opinions on their beliefs ... in the same way that theists do!!!

... some gang-up and go into denial, with the best of them!!!

... while others open-mindedly examine the evidence ... and some have even become Christians as a result!!!!:)

J C

bluewolf wrote: »

then most religious what

... than most religious anything you're having yourself!!!!:)

I have yet to find a religion that is entirely free of either virtue or vice!!!!

MagicMarker

darkman2 wrote: »

I do see the merit in the observation though.

Can you share it with the rest of us?

amacachi

Tolerance really has had its meaning raped over the last 20 or so years.

J C

wrote:

Originally Posted by darkman2
I do see the merit in the observation though.

MagicMarker
Can you share it with the rest of us?

It was:-
"Atheists are just as intolerant, if not more so, then most religious"

J C

amacachi wrote: »

Tolerance really has had its meaning raped over the last 20 or so years.

Tolerance has become more important over the past 20 years as people of different worldviews increasingly interact with each other.
Indeed, it has become a necessity in our increasingly multi-cultural society.

Tolerance cuts both ways ... and we therefore should all respect and love one another as the amazing sovereign Human Beings that we all are!!!:)

ShooterSF

I'd strongly disagree. Most (all I have met anyway) Atheists are hugely in favour of individual freedoms as long as those freedoms do not impact other's freedoms. That is why I'll happily leave someone to believe any crazy idea as long as they leave everyone else alone.
Religion on the other hand demands judgement. These things are wrong, these things are right and it's not debatable because god decided. That's not to say all religious are less tolerant just that the underlying foundation of religion should make it more likely.

RichieC

I have never heard an athiest say anyone will spend eternity burning for not agreeing with them.

18AD

It's too true. Atheists tend to be more intolerant towards intolerance than the intolerance they tolerate.

J C

ShooterSF wrote: »

I'd strongly disagree. Most (all I have met anyway) Atheists are hugely in favour of individual freedoms as long as those freedoms do not impact other's freedoms.

The exercise of all freedoms impact to some degree on other people's freedoms. The question becomes what degree of tolerance should be shown to others to exercise their freedoms to do things / express opinions that I disagree with.
Being a liberal, I would argue that the maximum degree of freedom should be granted.

ShooterSF wrote: »

That is why I'll happily leave someone to believe any crazy idea as long as they leave everyone else alone.

Even the most opressive and fascist societies allow people to believe whatever they want to believe ... the oppression only shows itself ... when people start publishing their ideas ... or otherwise 'going into the streets and frightening the horses'!!!!:eek:

Your test, on individual freedom and tolerance, would make a Medieval Pope very happy indeed!!

Sonics2k

I'm only intolerant of bullshít and nonsensical fairy tales being spread as a religion and "Truth".

J C

RichieC wrote: »

I have never heard an athiest say anyone will spend eternity burning for not agreeing with them.

You are free to believe it ... or not.

What is wrong with simply telling you this?

I have no problem with an Atheist telling me that I will cease to exist when I die ... and I don't break out in a cold sweat about such Nihilism!!!!:)

18AD

J C wrote: »

You are free to believe it ... or not.

What is wrong with simply telling you this?

Because thinking it isn't a freedom at all?

J C

Sonics2k wrote: »

I'm only intolerant of bullshít and nonsensical fairy tales being spread as a religion and "Truth".

One man's 'Bovine excreta' and fairytales is often another man's worldview.

I have heard my fair share of 'Bovine excreta' being promulgated by both Theists and Atheists ... but I listen patiently and respectfully to it all ... and I make my own mind up about where the truth lies.

... I would commend such a strategy to you as well.
... you might even learn something that you didn't know already with such an open-minded and tolerant approach.:)

J C

18AD wrote: »

Because thinking it isn't a freedom at all?

Our sovereign will ... and our ability to think for ourselves ... is one of our greatest freedoms!!!!

... indeed it the only freedom that cannot be taken from us by man or demon!!!:)

18AD

J C wrote: »

Our sovereign will ... and our ability to think for ourselves ... is one of our greatest freedoms!!!!

... indeed it the only freedom that cannot be taken from us by man or demon!!!:)

I whole-heartedly disagree. Where do your ideas come from? Where do thoughts come from? They're not free.

J C

18AD wrote: »

I whole-heartedly disagree. Where do your ideas come from? Where do thoughts come from? They're not free.

My ideas come from many external sources (as well as a few of my own) ... and my thoughts come from the sovereign exercise of my free will and my critical faculties.

Many aspects of my existence are circumscribed by my circumstances ... but my thoughts are free!!!!

I could freely surrender my thoughts to accept whatever 'brainwashing' comes my way ... but this is a voluntary thing that I have chosen not to do!!:)

18AD

J C wrote: »

My ideas come from many external sources (as well as a few of my own) ... and my thoughts come from the sovereign exercise of my free will and my critical faculties.

Many aspects of my existence are circumscribed by my circumstances ... but my thoughts are free!!!!

I could freely surrender my thoughts to accept whatever 'brainwashing' comes my way ... but this is a voluntary thing that I have chosen not to do!!:)

How are your thoughts free? You can't simply think whatever you want. At least what you want to think is within certain existential parameters. The desire of which is not your freedom to decide. (I'm pushing it :P)

Dudess

The statement is utter nonsense in my opinion - of course there are going to be some intolerant atheists, just like there are some intolerant religious folks... because there are some intolerant people.
But this notion that atheists on the whole are more intolerant than religious people on the whole... is just something thrown out there by people who have a problem with atheism in general.

yawha

darkman2 wrote: »

First of all - Happy Christmas!:D


Just wondering do you agree with the title statement that Atheists are, far from being of a new more informed age, in fact more intolerant of others beliefs then among the religious faithful? i.e that atheists are condescending and dismissive of people with whatever religious belief be it Christian, Muslim, Jewish etc. FWIW I regard myself, like most, as Catholic with a small "c" so don't have any particular axe to grind. I do see the merit in the observation though.

No, it's just a fallacy that some people like to promote in order to appear like they're much more tolerant, agreeable and open minded than others. It is also occasionally proposed by ignorant people who don't know the difference between an antitheist and an atheist, or who think that any kind of questioning or challenging of religions is for some reason the same as intolerance of people's right to believe in whatever they want to.

I've posted this xkcd comic many time, but it just makes the point so superbly:


In reality, it's extremely rare to find an atheist that promotes discrimination against the religious, who is for forbidding them from believing in or performing activities pertaining to believing in a particular religion (as long as these activities are hurting no one). Can you give any examples of this intolerance of which you speak?

ShooterSF

J C wrote: »

The exercise of all freedoms impact to some degree on other people's freedoms.

Explain please. How does me having the freedom to drink beer today impact on others or my freedom not to have seconds in turkey or not go to church or not believe in god or not work on the Sabbath or eat meat on "good" friday as long as I don't demand that you do any of these things?

J C

18AD wrote: »

How are your thoughts free? You can't simply think whatever you want. At least what you want to think is within certain existential parameters. The desire of which is not your freedom to decide. (I'm pushing it :P)

I can literally think anything that I want.

There are no limits to Human thought and ingenuity!!!!

... and this single fact scares the hell out of every tin-pot dictator (and many of the gold-plated ones) down through history!!!:)

Ellis Dee

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

J C

Dudess wrote: »

The statement is utter nonsense in my opinion - of course there are going to be some intolerant atheists, just like there are some intolerant religious folks... because there are some intolerant people.
But this notion that atheists on the whole are more intolerant than religious people on the whole... is just something thrown out there by people who have a problem with atheism in general.

I don't think that such allegations are all 'muck-raking'.

I think that as Atheism grows in stature and confidence within society that the age-old Human weaknesses of arrogance and intolerance are more likely to show themselves.

... and there is prima face evidence that Atheists (no more than any other faith) aren't immune to such weaknesses.:)

Nollog

I agree with the thread title completely.
Every single atheist I've spoken with, or been around has always been a complete tool, and completely intolerant of other's beliefs.

The ones who don't call themselves atheists but just say "I don't believe in God/Religion" are the ones that are tolerant, and I can respect.
In my experience, calling yourself an athiest = announcing your intent for asshattery.

Seriously, when you can't leave well enough alone, you have a problem.