Strength programming for females ... question

Glowing

Hi,

I was having a session with my physio this evening, having a good ould chat while he was working away on my back and he said something to me which surprised me ...

We were talking about strength training (this guy is a rugby physio) and how much I was enjoying it blah blah .. and he asked me if I was taking care that my program wasn't causing too much muscle growth? (have to admit I'm slightly paranoid now :rolleyes:) I answered that I wasn't, as I was under the impression that females couldn't get too bulky all that easily so I was just training away regardless.

Anyway - he disagreed, and then went on a bit of a tangent talking about how certain types of lifts can generate muscle growth even in females (I think he described negatives here) and others won't, and generally women don't want to add bulk to the 'wrong places' (his words not mine) so would generally work on a program with this in mind

Do you guys program differently for women and men (assuming goals are to get strong and lean?) or is this guy talking rubbish? Are there certain types of exercises that you wouldn't normally include in a woman's program? Or do you assume if a women is programming for strength, then all vanity goes out the window?

Would love to hear your opinions ... thanks

jive

You won't grow too much muscle. When you go to the gym I'm sure you see people strength training week in week out and struggle to gain much muscle, and they are male. Their physiology dictates that they will add far more muscle than females will both with and without strength training. Don't worry about it. Think about how many women are too muscular that you see in the gym or even in the real world - I'd imagine you can count them with one hand and even then they may be using steroids. If you think you're getting too bulky then re-programme, it's very easy to lose mass but difficult to gain it!! Don't worry about it, you won't add to much - your hormones hate you :P

will56

I'd like to chime in on this as well. My girlfriend recently started weight training, was all eager to give it a go and after a month or so was really enjoying it.
However she did some muscle growth, esp in her back, as when she went to put on a dress during the summer she had issues getting it to zip all the way up
So while women don't usually gain mass like men weight training will build some muscle.
Don't get me wrong strength training is the right way to go for training but you do need to evaluate your program as you go.

Dotcomdolly

will56 wrote: »

I'd like to chime in on this as well. My girlfriend recently started weight training, was all eager to give it a go and after a month or so was really enjoying it.
However she did some muscle growth, esp in her back, as when she went to put on a dress during the summer she had issues getting it to zip all the way up
So while women don't usually gain mass like men weight training will build some muscle.
Don't get me wrong strength training is the right way to go for training but you do need to evaluate your program as you go.

Anecdotal eveidence but a girl in the gym was talking about how she was trying to lose the muscle in her back & it was proving hard and her boyfriend had said that when he met her when she wore a halter top she looked "gross" with all the muscle.

Barry.Oglesby

It actually does depend on several factors related to your testosterone levels and your body's response to training. I've trained a girl who was appalled at the size of her shoulders after a couple of months, or rather someone in her life was appalled at the size of her shoulders!!! But in general, and I mean for 90% of the female population, a balanced strength programme won't cause significant hypertrophy. This is due to 1) the lower levels of steroid hormones in females, and 2) every girl has some bint of a mate who'll make a smart comment at her if she starts to look too good.

In fact, do it right and any new muscle goes in all the right places- your back to improve posture generally, your rear end to increase Connery style pats on the bum anything up to 10%, and in fact, most of the gains just make you look leaner and will make it far easier to be leaner.

So your physio's not wrong per se, he's just not coming at it from the same point of view. I think a lot of perception about women's training comes from men's tastes and women's ideals more than actual results.

Thud

Historically i would think, the majority of Irish women weren't very sporty, it's changed a lot in the last decade or two, i think irish mens taste is taking a while to catch up.

I think womens' magazines(from what i've read over the missus' shoulder) are starting to come around from where they were a few years ago and starting to praise "toned" women instead of the "she's a freak she's got muscle tone" attitude they used to have.

Those wirey Madonna pictures scared a lot of women away from going to the gym for fear they'd end up looking like her.

Personally, i think the athletic look beats the anorexic look every time..

cmyk

I'm with Barry on this. I'm finding more and more that somatotype plays a role in both hypertrophy and fat loss, a point I realise not everyone supports here. I mean that with regard to dieting strategies too. It's clear that some (male and female) have a greater propensity for hypertrophy than others I don't think many will disagree with that. The more you can track, monitor and tweak training and diet, the more likely you are to find a balance that works for you.

Red Cortina

I think its fair to say too that a physio who works in a rugby club is going to encounter a lot more women who are in the 10% bracket who are a bit bulky:)

Hanley

This is one of those ones where someone has half a clue but can't actually apply it in real life. It's poppycock.

Glowing

Thanks for all the replys (had to Google a few terms there!). In general, is there a difference in programming (reps, weight, timing) when programming for strength as opposed to size? Can you have one without the other?

Kevin Duffy

I think your physio is an unprofessional dick who has no business making comments like that. It's not his job to decide what body shape or image you should have, it's your business to set your own goals for any aspect of your training, whether that's your strength goals or your cosmetic goals.

Logical Fallacy

Glowing wrote: »

Thanks for all the replys (had to Google a few terms there!). In general, is there a difference in programming (reps, weight, timing) when programming for strength as opposed to size? Can you have one without the other?

Yes there is a difference, common consense is lower reps (1-3) for strength at a high percentage of max load and higher reps (10-12) for size at a lower percentage of max load.

That said, it's best to pay attention to your body and see how it reacts to different types of lifts and reps and weight ranges. I distinctly remember getting more growth in my arms doing very heavy rows, deadlifts and chins than i ever got from doing sets of 10-12 of arm excercises.

JJayoo

I think a lot of this has to do with bodyfat levels. Low bodyfat and a decent pair of delts can look very ropey.
skip to 1.20 for ropey horseface

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiV_HcNTL-Q

Glowing

JJayoo wrote: »

I think a lot of this has to do with bodyfat levels. Low bodyfat and a decent pair of delts can look very ropey.
skip to 1.20 for ropey horseface

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiV_HcNTL-Q

:-o I Think she looks really good!

JJayoo

She looks ok until she lifts her arms up, then she looks like a bag of rope

gymfreak

Glowing wrote: »

:-o I Think she looks really good!

So do I!!

JJayoo

So do I!!

Well would you consider yourself and Glowing to be two average ladies? I mean both of you love to train and are clearly knowledgeable on the subject. So your view might be slightly different,in a good way, to the average girl who has just joined the gym.

The reason I posted the clip was because I remember watching it with an ex and her housemates and they were all commenting about her "massive shoulders" even thou they all had about 50 pounds on her.

Hanley

This thread is depressing the absolute sh*t outta me. Genuinely.

Like we've so much evidence, both scientific and anecdotal that none of the negative claims that are being made actually happen. We've stories of fat chicks claiming lean ones look disgusting, AND someone in a professional capacity talking complete bollox.

Depressing as hell.

Glowing

Well Hanley that's what surprised me yesterday and why I had to start a thread on it.

It just threw me to hear that coming from him (a professional who is a very good physio btw) - it was a very odd thing for him to come out with when we were just chatting about strength training in general. I never mentioned *anything* about my physique or any concerns I might have (or didn't have up to yesterday at least, LOL!) so it just kinda took me by surprise.

But yes, it seems that it's less 'acceptable' in general if a women has large shoulders/thighs/whatever when they're comprised mostly of muscle rather than fat, even if they're smaller and leaner than an average women

cc87

http://www.johnphung.com/blog/902/what-women-think-will-happen-to-them-if-they-start-lifting-weights/

Ive no idea how to embed images

gymfreak

JJayoo wrote: »

Well would you consider yourself and Glowing to be two average ladies? I mean both of you love to train and are clearly knowledgeable on the subject. So your view might be slightly different,in a good way, to the average girl who has just joined the gym.

I know myself and Glowing have a keener interest in training than the majority of women in Ireland, but looking at a broader picture we are most definitely average.

JJayoo wrote: »

The reason I posted the clip was because I remember watching it with an ex and her housemates and they were all commenting about her "massive shoulders" even thou they all had about 50 pounds on her.

Yeh, to be honest I'd nearly be taking offence to the clip because I know when I'm lean and depending on what way I'm throwing my arms about like your one in the video that my muscles are pretty evident too..I'm on an unintentional Christmas bulk at the moment so I'm not taking offence at all but definitely if I was in a lean-ing out stage I wouldnt be too happy with the above comment.

It's getting to the stage in society were no matter what type of bodyshape you have someone always whats to comment.

Stick thin isn't acceptable
overweight/obese gets its comments too
and now lean, muscular girls

I really didnt mean that to be a rant but..I've been stick thin without muscle..I've done the gaining christmas lard and I've done the lean muscular look and by and far I feel most confident when I'm lean and muscular, but funnily enough the only time I dont get negative comments from other IS when Ive gained a couple of pounds

Total off topic rant.. Sorry. Happy Christmas:)

Kevin Duffy

gymfreak wrote: »

It's getting to the stage in society were no matter what type of bodyshape you have someone always whats to comment.

Stick thin isn't acceptable
overweight/obese gets its comments too
and now lean, muscular girls

I really didnt mean that to be a rant but..I've been stick thin without muscle..I've done the gaining christmas lard and I've done the lean muscular look and by and far I feel most confident when I'm lean and muscular, but funnily enough the only time I dont get negative comments from other IS when Ive gained a couple of pounds

Total off topic rant.. Sorry. Happy Christmas:)

It's not an OT rant though, it goes to the heart of why the physio's comments are so wrong and well beyond his professional remit. You decide your body composition and shape, as is absolutely your right. A professional working in an associated field should absolutely not be making univited coments about the OP's bodyshape, it's not his business until he's asked.
If I pop down to the physio today and discuss my injury, then get a random "Yeh, that's all well and good, but I think your arse is too big and doesn't look good", I won't be impressed. Similarily, if any woman gets a "Well, I don't think women should have big or defined muscles" from a physio, that is completely unprofessional.

JJayoo

Hmm think my post was taken up wrong or much more likely I posted in a less the semi coherent fashion.

I must admit I am currently in work and am just skimming through the posts but I thought the thread was about whether or not special care should be taken by a woman when designing a programme in order to avoid building muscle in certain undesiredable areas or at least give priority to certain muscle groups.

Since I am not a lady I can't give any personal feedback on this topic and can only go by conversations I have had with girls. My girlfriend is a black belt in judo and has won two regional titles in France. I have tried to get her to come to the gym on a few occasions but she point blank refuses as she equates lifting weights with getting bulky, and whey equals steroids. Even though she has trained at a very high level and is incredibly strong she still has the same misconceptions that my mum has ie any kind of weights will build big balls of muscle.

I know myself and Glowing have a keener interest in training than the majority of women in Ireland, but looking at a broader picture we are most definitely average

When I made reference to Gymfreak and Glowing being different to the majority of Irish women I simply meant that from your experience you don’t follow blindly the misconceptions which float around most gyms in regards to women and weights.

Yeh, to be honest I'd nearly be taking offence to the clip because I know when I'm lean and depending on what way I'm throwing my arms about like your one in the video that my muscles are pretty evident too..I'm on an unintentional Christmas bulk at the moment so I'm not taking offence at all but definitely if I was in a lean-ing out stage I wouldnt be too happy with the above comment.

I don't really know how my ex's opinion on carrie from sex and the city has offended you. It def wasn't some sort of sneaky dig, I mean I have never met you.

Oryx

My physio has been known to comment on my build, but only in a positive sense. As in 'your quads are bigger cycling going well?' A physio who told me to be careful not to overdevelop some areas would be told to sod off. Thats not his job. His job is to keep me in good nick. My shape is my own concern. Personally I train so my body can do certain stuff not so it looks the way someone else 'might' approve of.

kate.m

When I was younger (14-15ish) I was training a 5 days a week, typical elite gymnastics routines. More conditioning and flexibility training, but had to visit the physio quite a bit.

One guy was replacing my regular physio who was on holidays, and he started talking how six-packs were not attractive on girls, made them look really masculine, all this talk on how it wasn't natual. At 14/15 I hardly looked like I was on steroids or super muscular, but he told me I should consider cutting back because if I kept doing what I was doing I'd end up like looking like one of those women (I know )

I just found a different physio, but my mum was pretty unhappy with his comments :rolleyes:

They shouldn't pass comments either way.

Hanley

kate.m wrote: »

When I was younger (14-15ish) I was training a 5 days a week, typical elite gymnastics routines. More conditioning and flexibility training, but had to visit the physio quite a bit.

One guy was replacing my regular physio who was on holidays, and he started talking how six-packs were not attractive on girls, made them look really masculine, all this talk on how it wasn't natual. At 14/15 I hardly looked like I was on steroids or super muscular, but he told me I should consider cutting back because if I kept doing what I was doing I'd end up like looking like one of those women (I know )

I just found a different physio, but my mum was pretty unhappy with his comments :rolleyes:

They shouldn't pass comments either way.

What a disgustingly ignorant display. Fairly ironic too when you consider most elite female gymnasts at say Olympic level have the sort of body most women would kill for.

gymfreak

JJayoo wrote: »

When I made reference to Gymfreak and Glowing being different to the majority of Irish women I simply meant that from your experience you don’t follow blindly the misconceptions which float around most gyms in regards to women and weights .

Oh right, completely missed that.

JJayoo wrote: »

I don't really know how my ex's opinion on carrie from sex and the city has offended you. It def wasn't some sort of sneaky dig, I mean I have never met you.

Nope, I wasnt offended cos Im not particularly lean at the moment:D.. but what I was pointing out was that the comment about her looking 'ropey' adds to the idea that the lean muscular look isnt attractive on a woman. I appreciate a lot of women have this view but I just thought that the video clip posted on a thread about strength training for women calling Carrie 'ropey' was a bit much.

But hey, everyone has there own opinion of what they like and don't like:) Personally I thought she looked in savage nick in the vid clip

JJayoo

Told the girlfriend that girls who can deadlift and do chinups are sexy, she then banged out a 100kg deadlift and 5 deadhang chinups. The girl has never tried either ever before and hasn't done judo in over a year FML

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT8j2MncKpQ

itsallaboutheL

I'm with Jayoo on this, Horsey has no upper back at all, makes her look weird.

Lantus

Glowing wrote: »

Thanks for all the replys (had to Google a few terms there!). In general, is there a difference in programming (reps, weight, timing) when programming for strength as opposed to size? Can you have one without the other?

Muscles typically do one of two things. They can either grow or atrophy (get smaller).

Exercise like weight training forces muscle growth and that exercise can be tailored to achieve more or less growth. Forcing a muscle to failure (higher weights ans less reps) combined with good diet will lead to more growth. Less challenging exercises will only force a muscle to grow enough to deal with that exercise.

On the whole its a slow and laborious process. I would like to challenge the majority of people both men and women who are worried that weight training will make them look too bulky and see after how many years of dedicated trying they give up. Sure some people will be of a body type that will grow large muscles but the vast majority are not and it's pretty damm hard.

rubadub

Glowing wrote: »

females couldn't get too bulky all that easily so I was just training away regardless.

Anyway - he disagreed,

I think people need to quantify their idea of 'too bulky', as people obviously have different ideas. You both could possibly have been in agreement if you had pictures to look at to illustrate your ideas.

Though I still think his warnings are stupid, you would swear its a plastic surgeon warning against getting a boob job which is too big. Its not like you are going to get the 'wrong program' and wake up in the morning crying as you see these bulging muscles which cannot be reversed.

There was a study on this site showing shorter rest times leading to higher muscle gain but less maximal strength gain.
http://www.ergo-log.com/creatineusersmoremuscle.html
Not sure how important the creatine is in that.

itsallaboutheL

This goes here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFpsOhUQgio

Merry Christmas fuckers.

the drifter

/thread

Edwardius

rubadub wrote: »

I think people need to quantify their idea of 'too bulky', as people obviously have different ideas. You both could possibly have been in agreement if you had pictures to look at to illustrate your ideas.

Yup, it's subjective. Bulky is in the eye of the beholder. I know people who think Jessica Biel is a tank

Glowing

I think it's gradually dawning on me that I should just ignore that guy and his comments, and just keep doing what I enjoy It's fairly apparent that everyone has their own ideas as to what's feminine and what isn't anyway, and even *if* I did end up like a 'bag o'rope' (LOL) then who cares as long as I am happy, healthy and strong. I'll just keep an eye out on how things are progressing to make sure nothing gets too 'out of proportion' but that's as far as my concern will go methinks. I'm annoyed at him for even putting these thoughts in my head as I was fairly happy with the way my training was going to date

The next time I visit the physio, I'll just paint myself green like the hulk and ask him if he has any tips for growing muscle in the wrong places ....

Dotcomdolly

Put a pair of socks down your knickers, wear skinny jeans, and *really* freak him out , lol.

Glowing

Dotcomdolly wrote: »

Put a pair of socks down your knickers, wear skinny jeans, and *really* freak him out , lol.

haha ewwwwwwww!