Rape crisis UK, new campaign posters

Fear Uladh

What do you make of this?



Again the stereotype of the "Men Are Terrible And Will Hurt You Because This Is Lifetime" attitude these "gender neutral" centres have is disgusting.

I don't get the argument that statistics prove that women are more likely to be affected, that doesn't excuse the fact that women are capable of it as well
considering that a man reporting instances of sexual abuse is taboo.

Anyway what is your opinion?

sensibleken

Seems accurate enough. The fact that the ad doesnt say anything about rape of men doesnt mean its inaccurate. Just not sure how many rapists are going to pay attention to a poster campaign

Sonics2k

1) The poster is useless, and let's be honest, is not going to deter the kind of person who'd commit rape.

2) Rape Crisis campaigns should focus on getting people to actually report the crime when it's committed.

3) Not at all surprised it's playing the "Never anything to do with a woman".

wonderfulname

Sonics2k wrote: »

1) The poster is useless, and let's be honest, is not going to deter the kind of person who'd commit rape.

2) Rape Crisis campaigns should focus on getting people to actually report the crime when it's committed.

That may actually be their aim in this campaign, it looks to be to me, rape victims frequently feel a level of guilt which prevents them reaching out to someone about what happened, the idea may be to make these people feel they are not to blame.

Sonics2k

wonderfulname wrote: »

That may actually be their aim in this campaign, it looks to be to me, rape victims frequently feel a level of guilt which prevents them reaching out to someone about what happened, the idea may be to make these people feel they are not to blame.

What can I say really. You are right in that it could be a possible aim, but it's certainly not the focus of it.

It really does read more like "If shes had some drinks, you're a rapist!", which frankly doesn't sit well with me at all.

Rape is a very serious crime, and considering the current rates, the campaigns should focus on getting people to report the crimes, rather than other tactics like this, which are useless.

Daftendirekt

The point of the poster isn't to discourage rapists, it's to discourage victim blaming. It's trying to communicate the message that if you've been raped, having alcohol in your system doesn't make it your fault.

Read it from a female rape victim's perspective, and see if it looks any different.

Galvasean

Daftendirekt wrote: »

The point of the poster isn't to discourage rapists, it's to discourage victim blaming. It's trying to communicate the message that if you've been raped, having alcohol in your system doesn't make it your fault.

Look at it from a female rape victim's perspective, and see if it looks any different.

The language used does not appear to be aimed at the victims though.

"No matter how much she's drunk..."

"No matter how little she's wearing..."

"If there's any doubt about whether a woman has drunk too much to give consent, assume she hasn't given it."

In terms of plain English, these phrases are clearly not aimed at rape victims, but the rapists themselves. It seems an odd one alright.

Can't say I'm too fond of their logo either, replacing the A in rape with a picture of a woman. Yeah, women get raped more often than men, but it seems daft that to any man who did have the misfortune of being raped who wanted to approach the crisis centre, it's very logo comes across as emasculating.

parker kent

Galvasean wrote: »

The language used does not appear to be aimed at the victims though.

"No matter how much she's drunk..."

"No matter how little she's wearing..."

"If there's any doubt about whether a woman has drunk too much to give consent, assume she hasn't given it."

In terms of plain English, these phrases are clearly not aimed at rape victims, but the rapists themselves. It seems an odd one alright.

Can't say I'm too fond of their logo either, replacing the A in rape with a picture of a woman. Yeah, women get raped more often than men, but it seems daft that to any man who did have the misfortune of being raped who wanted to approach the crisis centre, it's very logo comes across as emasculating.

I don't think you got Daftendirekt's point. That post said "It's trying to communicate the message that if you've been raped, having alcohol in your system doesn't make it your fault." Which in fairness, the poster does attempt to do. The headline is directed at victims as is the end line starting with "Find Your Local...".

You only have to read threads on Boards or listen to conversations about rape cases to realise how often people will throw out the "well she was extremely drunk", "she was dressed like a skank", "she was leading him on kissing him like that" type lines. So this poster is trying to say those responses are wrong and get women to report the crimes.

I'd have no problem with this poster so long as they make an effort to help male rape victims as well. The stats support the view that women are far more likely to be raped. So they should concentrate more on women.

Dravokivich

There is also the counter arguement that women would have to be aware and responsible for themselves.

No matter what way the campaign was intended it's blunt messages are very easy to be taken in the wrong manner as shown above and it doesn't matter much saying to someone there perception is wrong. If it's too easy to get the wrong message from it, the message is worthless.

Daftendirekt

Galvasean wrote: »

The language used does not appear to be aimed at the victims though.

"No matter how much she's drunk..."

"No matter how little she's wearing..."

"If there's any doubt about whether a woman has drunk too much to give consent, assume she hasn't given it."

In terms of plain English, these phrases are clearly not aimed at rape victims, but the rapists themselves. It seems an odd one alright.

It does seem a bit strange now that you mention it. Perhaps they're trying to simultaneously target the "she was asking for it crowd"? It'd make sense. If you're going to fight victim blaming then you not only need to address the victims themselves, but also those who engage in it.

Wompa1

I've got an honest legal question. If a woman consents and is drunk, she can still claim it was rape because she was too intoxicated to give consent, right?

But if the guy is also drunk. Does that not negate the whole thing because he was also too intoxicated to consent and so he could also say she raped him?

I've only ever had sex with a drunk girl once and was drunk myself. She consented and even gave me the condom. But if she wanted to afterwards, could she have claimed it was rape because she was drunk?

jam_mac_jam

Wompa1 wrote: »

I've got an honest legal question. If a woman consents and is drunk, she can still claim it was rape because she was too intoxicated to give consent, right?

But if the guy is also drunk. Does that not negate the whole thing because he was also too intoxicated to consent and so he could also say she raped him?

I've only ever had sex with a drunk girl once and was drunk myself. She consented and even gave me the condom. But if she wanted to afterwards, could she have claimed it was rape because she was drunk?

No if she consents then its not rape. If she cannot give consent because she is too drunk passed out for example then its rape. You cannot shag somebody and decide that its rape after, well you can I suppose but you would be lying.

Galvasean

Daftendirekt wrote: »

It does seem a bit strange now that you mention it. Perhaps they're trying to simultaneously target the "she was asking for it crowd"? It'd make sense. If you're going to fight victim blaming then you not only need to address the victims themselves, but also those who engage in it.

Now that I've had a think about it, I think the bits I quoted must be aimed at those who would dismiss victims, based on their drunkness etc., as opposed to actual rapists. I can't imagine anyone thinks telling rapists not to rape via a poster is going to work particularly well.

braintoxic

Wow how can so many people miss the point . Its aimed at men . All rapists dont jump out of bushes and hard as this might be to hear most men who rape women did not intend it. The message here is no means no .. if a girl is really drunk no matter how far she takes it when she says stop she means stop and forcing her to continue is rape . The poster is for normal lads who go out on d pull to warn them ..rape happens when she does not consent...

Otis Driftwood

Around a year or so ago I pulled on a night out.It was a sometime ex so wasnt the typical type ONS.It turned out she was hammered so nothing happened apart from a bit of kissing however we were chatting the next morning and she asked me if she needed to take the MAP as she either couldnt remember if we'd even had sex or if Id cum inside her.

Scary thing when you think about it which is why Id avoid ONS's for the most part.

Im not offended by the campaign because the fact of the matter is that the majority of rapes that happen are committed by men.

If it gets even one person,male or female to take a step back and examine what they are doing so as to avoid doing something they may later regret then surely its a good thing.

braintoxic

Young lads need to be educated to the fact that no matter how drunk she is no matter how far she takes it you must stop when conset is removed..im not convinced this poster is aimed at your steriotypical rapist ... So i say yes it is a good poster n it will open some eyes

Dravokivich

braintoxic wrote: »

Wow how can so many people miss the point . Its aimed at men . All rapists dont jump out of bushes and hard as this might be to hear most men who rape women did not intend it. The message here is no means no .. if a girl is really drunk no matter how far she takes it when she says stop she means stop and forcing her to continue is rape . The poster is for normal lads who go out on d pull to warn them ..rape happens when she does not consent...

braintoxic wrote: »

Young lads need to be educated to the fact that no matter how drunk she is no matter how far she takes it you must stop when conset is removed..im not convinced this poster is aimed at your steriotypical rapist ... So i say yes it is a good poster n it will open some eyes

The issue being raised here isn't that "No Means No" and that you should "Stop when she says Stop"

It portrays a woman in a disposition where she wouldn't be aware what is actually happening and is then expecting a man to recognise and evaluate the situation at hand and deal with it in a respectable manner.

But lets not also leave out the general stereotype that most blokes drunk aren't very respectable. :rolleyes:

It took Galvasean a re-read of it after a different perspective was suggested to him to get an alternate meaning of the poster. It's one that wouldn't of occured to me either and I'm no gobshíte nor would I be inclined to take advantage of the setting that has been portrayed.

If it needs an interpretor it's open to missinterpretation.

DeepBlue

It's fairly simple - bring your solicitor with you when you go on the pull.

If you're three sheets to the wind and so is she then get your solicitor to draw up a legally binding agreement stating that you both intend to do the deed with free will and get witnesses to both your signatures.

Sorted.

Btw the girls in the poster look about 15 so maybe underage drinking is legal in the UK. :pac:

Galvasean

DeepBlue wrote: »

If you're three sheets to the wind and so is she then get your solicitor to draw up a legally binding agreement stating that you both intend to do the deed with free will and get witnesses to both your signatures.

Not sure how it works in the UK, but here I'm pretty sure you cannot sign a contract while drunk.

Sauve

I hope you guys don't mind me throwing my two cents in here....

Before I get started I want to point out that I am NOT talking about violent attacks/coercion/drugging/intimidation type rapes.
What I'm referring to is the people who claim they've been raped after a night of drinking where they genuinely don't have any idea what they're doing and are not necessarily being taken advantage of. These people have not said 'no'. They have not said 'stop'. They have simply been too 'out of it' to know what they were at.

I was brought up to be responsible for my actions. If I go out and drink myself into a complete mess it's a given that something I didn't intend could well happen.
I could fall in front of a car. I could decide to climb a lamp-post and fall off. I could do something really stupid and end up getting thrown in a garda cell to sober up.
The following morning I would wake up and berate myself for being a bloody idiot, and take the necessary actions to right whatever wrongs I'd done, be it apologise to someone, go get stitches, whatever!

Same story if I go home with someone that I didn't intend to. As long as I was certain that nothing illegal had happened, my reaction would be the same as the above, ie "Sauv you fecking idiot, what did you do that for, you tool", and feel pretty stupid.
The thought that some girls can turn this situation around and call it rape is pretty sad. It's more than sad, it's extremely annoying.
As adults, we all need to be responsible for our actions. We should know our limits and stick to them.

By the way, all of the above points could apply to both men and women....

strobe

Otis Driftwood wrote: »

If it gets even one person,male or female to take a step back and examine what they are doing so as to avoid doing something they may later regret then surely its a good thing.

I don't know. It's not either/or. Get through to one person or get through to no one. The same resources spent on a 'good campaign' could reach 6 people or 2000 people rather than a 'bad campaign' reaching one.

I think personally that going by this thread and the other one running in another forum it appears the message, how it's put across and even who it was supposed to be aimed at is too ambiguous and open to misinterpretation, meaning I'd be of the opinion this is not a 'good campaign' and may very well end up doing less good than another one could have.

Not too mention that if you do as Daftendirekt and others have suggested and read it from a female perspective the line 'If there's any doubt about whether a woman has drunk too much to give consent, assume she hasn't given it' can be interpreted as 'If there is any doubt about whether you drank too much to give consent, assume you didn't', which would seem to be suggesting to women that they 'play it safe' and report an incident like that as rape.

Like I say, I just think it's not a very good campaign, too ambiguous and badly put across.

Then again maybe the designers are secret geniuses and deliberately created it like that so as to encourage discussion, which it certainly seems to be doing. :rolleyes: :pac:

parker kent

braintoxic wrote: »

Wow how can so many people miss the point . Its aimed at men . All rapists dont jump out of bushes and hard as this might be to hear most men who rape women did not intend it. The message here is no means no .. if a girl is really drunk no matter how far she takes it when she says stop she means stop and forcing her to continue is rape . The poster is for normal lads who go out on d pull to warn them ..rape happens when she does not consent...

As far as I can see (and have said above), it is aimed at both men and women. But yes, that is the aim of the poster. It is talking about the way that rape can sometimes be written off because a girl was drunk, wearing certain clothes etc.

parker kent

strobe wrote: »

Not too mention that if you do as Daftendirekt and others have suggested and read it from a female perspective the line 'If there's any doubt about whether a woman has drunk too much to give consent, assume she hasn't given it' can be interpreted as 'If there is any doubt about whether you drank too much to give consent, assume you didn't', which would seem to be suggesting to women that they 'play it safe' and report an incident like that as rape.

The part in bold has not been suggested, nor was I saying that it should be interpreted that way. Nor would I say "play it safe" and report a rape just in case.

Dravokivich

parker kent wrote: »

The part in bold has not been suggested, nor was I saying that it should be interpreted that way. Nor would I say "play it safe" and report a rape just in case.

Don't forget you are referencing your understanding of it. Others here have taken it in different ways. Which is what Strobe and I have indicated as a problem with the campaign.

strobe

parker kent wrote: »

The part in bold has not been suggested, nor was I saying that it should be interpreted that way. Nor would I say "play it safe" and report a rape just in case.

My post wasn't directed towards anything you said Parker.

parker kent

Dravokivich wrote: »

Don't forget you are referencing your understanding of it. Others here have taken it in different ways. Which is what Strobe and I have indicated as a problem with the campaign.

Well that post was specifically referring to what was said on this thread, not the actual poster campaign. I am saying that I don't think anybody here agrees with this idea:
"If there is any doubt about whether you drank too much to give consent, assume you didn't', which would seem to be suggesting to women that they 'play it safe' and report an incident like that as rape."

strobe wrote: »

My post wasn't directed towards anything you said Parker.

Your post was about people reading it from "a female perspective". I was one of the only few people to respond and agree with that exact point. So I presumed I was included. Regardless, I don't think anybody has suggested that interpretation in your post nor would they support that interpretation.

strobe

parker kent wrote: »

Your post was about people reading it from "a female perspective". I was one of the only few people to respond and agree with that exact point. So I presumed I was included. Regardless, I don't think anybody has suggested that interpretation in your post nor would they support that interpretation.

I wasn't claiming you or anyone else had suggested that exact interpretation. Just that it's a possible one. There is a thread running in tLL as well on the topic where similar concerns were raised and similar things inferred. I was just making a point in context with the rest of my post. I.E Judging by the response so far to the poster it seems to me it is ambiguous on many levels and easily misinterpreted, one such interpretation people could take, should they read the entire text from a female perspective, being the one I put forward.

wonderfulname

Sauvignon82 wrote: »

I was brought up to be responsible for my actions. If I go out and drink myself into a complete mess it's a given that something I didn't intend could well happen.
I could fall in front of a car. I could decide to climb a lamp-post and fall off. I could do something really stupid and end up getting thrown in a garda cell to sober up.

Those are your actions, not someone elses, are you really equating being taken advantage of in that state with doing something of your own volition in that state?

If you go out on the piss and someone starts on you because you make an easy target in that condition who is to blame?

Tigger

sensibleken wrote: »

Seems accurate enough. The fact that the ad doesnt say anything about rape of men doesnt mean its inaccurate. Just not sure how many rapists are going to pay attention to a poster campaign

this
or do they think they are targetting the accidental rapist

Piste

Maybe they are targetting guys who wouldn't self-identify as rapists, lads who have misconceived notions about what consent is and isn't. Maybe it's targetting women, telling them that if a guy takes advantage of them when they are drunk, it's not their fault and it's still rape. Maybe it's aimed at the wider to public to encourage a shift in opinion and make people think seriously about what is and isn't rape.

cgarrad

All girls want to be raped, as long its by someone they fancy.

A classic line by one of my ex girlfriends...

strobe

I made this post elsewhere but I'd just like to put it to people here as well to get opinions.

'If there's any doubt about whether a woman has drunk too much to give consent, assume she hasn't given it'.

I'm just wondering what people take the bolded part to mean? To me 'drunk too much to give consent' would mean the person is non-communicative and not actively engaging in the act. Is that how everyone else understands the term?

Piste

For me a clear-cut version of "too drunk to consent" is unconscious, or conscious but barely able to speak, respond to other people's speech or walk unassisted.

The lines get blurred when you have someone very obviously drunk, but who can at least slur our some intelligible words. I would be inclined to think that level of drunkenness is still able to consent.

RDM_83 again

Hmmmmm to be pedantic, Drinking is not a crime, but being drunk is (in a public place INCLUDING licensed premises)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/35-36/94/section/12

Piste wrote: »

The lines get blurred when you have someone very obviously drunk, but who can at least slur our some intelligible words. I would be inclined to think that level of drunkenness is still able to consent.

I don't know if intelligible words would really count as consent though, coherent sentences I'd have though would be a bare minimum for consent.

Overall ads a bit shiit though IMO, would have been better of with a NO MEANS NO EVEN IF YOU'VE KISSED line if aimed at the creeps in nightclubs, or maybe a picture of Girl passed out on a couch at a party with the text that present at the minute.

Also sexist/ignoring male issues as usual*


OH got given a domestic violence brochure the last day (and no there was no walking into cupboards ) read through it and in entire thing there's not a mention of male issues not even a line with "if you are a man affected by this issue please contact X)

Fear Uladh

It's amazing that some posters are jumping on the consent side of things.

Nobody is arguing that if someone does NOT give consent to sex then it is indeed rape.

The issue is with the language and tone of the poster in question, which seems to portray blokes as advantage taking rapists without a hint of reaching out to both genders.

Fear Uladh

cgarrad wrote: »

All girls want to be raped, as long its by someone they fancy.

A classic line by one of my ex girlfriends...

:rolleyes:

Piste

Fear Uladh wrote: »

It's amazing that some posters are jumping on the consent side of things.

Nobody is arguing that if someone does NOT give consent to sex then it is indeed rape.

The issue is with the language and tone of the poster in question, which seems to portray blokes as advantage taking rapists without a hint of reaching out to both genders.

Do you think drunk men being targeted on nights out by girls/other men occurs often enough to warrant a poster campaign targeting creeps/potential rapists?

Genuine question, I'm not saying it's not an issue because I really don't know, but what do other people think?

Galvasean

Piste wrote: »

Do you think drunk men being targeted on nights out by girls/other men occurs often enough to warrant a poster campaign targeting creeps/potential rapists?

Well the fact that people seem largely oblivious to the fact that it happens suggests to me that yes it most certainly does.

Fear Uladh

Piste wrote: »

Do you think drunk men being targeted on nights out by girls/other men occurs often enough to warrant a poster campaign targeting creeps/potential rapists?

I'm saying that BOTH genders are victims of it.

Maybe more assaults on men would be reported if they weren't all depicted as the forever accused by these groups.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Find the ad in no way offensive. Many people have consent issues and the majority of them are men*

The scary thing is a lot of people now believe this is the only type of warning that should be given and if you suggest giving women tips on personal safety (something which is a much better idea because advertisements like this will obviously not stop all rapists) you are a bastard who blames the victim.

Feminists use rape victims as a political tool as it makes for good rhetoric. People still need to be careful with personal safety. Just because people shouldn't rape doesn't mean they won't.




*have previously experienced what I describe as "gurl-rape". Its when you are in bed with a girl and sex is obviously going to happen. She then has sex with you without asking. Its obviously not the same as normal rape but its very annoying if you have a strict personal policy of condom wearing

Bottle_of_Smoke

ps OP love the user name. Keep reading it in English in Ian Paisleys voice as a threat. ie "FEAR ULSTUUURRR!!"

getz

Fear Uladh wrote: »

It's amazing that some posters are jumping on the consent side of things.

Nobody is arguing that if someone does NOT give consent to sex then it is indeed rape.

The issue is with the language and tone of the poster in question, which seems to portray blokes as advantage taking rapists without a hint of reaching out to both genders.

come on,all men in the right circumstances are rapists,by the very fact that they have a larger sex drive,very rare is a man raped by a woman.

Dr Galen

getz wrote: »

come on,all men in the right circumstances are rapists,by the very fact that they have a larger sex drive,very rare is a man raped by a woman.

This is one of those serious threads that we have in here from time to time and as such, comments like this aren't really on. Throwing around opinion as fact in a discussion as emotive as this really is poor form.

You are going to have to back that up Getz or else withdraw the comment

Cheers

DrG

parker kent

Galvasean wrote: »

Well the fact that people seem largely oblivious to the fact that it happens suggests to me that yes it most certainly does.

People are not largely oblivious to it. Yes some people are oblivious to it but certainly not to the extent you are implying. There is no possible way to argue that it is anywhere near the same extent as the reverse situation. Drunk girls are much, much more likely to be targeted on nights out than guys. Read any report on sexual crimes, look up the statistics, talk to anybody that works in hospitals, ambulances etc.

Take this recent (and very good) article in the Guardian where a journalist spent a shift with a specialist paramedic crew:

It is the lone women who worry the crew most. "For some reason the guys seem to stick together, but we often find a woman completely out of it and on her own. It's such a risk," says Gissing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/dec/10/violence-booze-bus-christmas

Wompa1

parker kent wrote: »

People are not largely oblivious to it. Yes some people are oblivious to it but certainly not to the extent you are implying. There is no possible way to argue that it is anywhere near the same extent as the reverse situation. Drunk girls are much, much more likely to be targeted on nights out than guys. Read any report on sexual crimes, look up the statistics, talk to anybody that works in hospitals, ambulances etc.

Take this recent (and very good) article in the Guardian where a journalist spent a shift with a specialist paramedic crew:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/dec/10/violence-booze-bus-christmas

It's interesting they point out the fact that guys tend to stick together, while girls seem to end up alone more often. I have noticed that before. Sure guys feck off if there's a girl in sight but if you are with a group it's rare that all of them feck off on each other, where as pretty much every g/f I've ever had has at least once been left alone. I wonder what's up with that...

Not being sexist....it's just observation brought up by somebody who deals with like 70,000 drunks a year..

krudler

getz wrote: »

come on,all men in the right circumstances are rapists,by the very fact that they have a larger sex drive,very rare is a man raped by a woman.

idiotic fcuking statement if I ever heard one.

Artur Foden

getz wrote: »

come on,all men in the right circumstances are rapists,by the very fact that they have a larger sex drive,very rare is a man raped by a woman.

That's very misandrist. and incorrect

Will post a link if I find it, but I read an article that said while it was possible that men have a higher sex drive, it also showed that men might also think about other biological functions more often than women as well (such as hunger, sleep, bathroom breaks etc)

Even then I'm not so sure if men are any different sexually to women, and unless you would be willing to say that all women are potential rapists as well because they have a sex drive I think you should take that back

Also, some fool once said that men think about sex every six seconds, ridiculous stereotype. Stupid bloody thing to say

edit: found this link http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111128132704.htm
I haven't seen that website before so I don't know how accurate it is, and I would prefer to post the actual study itself but couldn't find a link

booboo88

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

No if she consents then its not rape. If she cannot give consent because she is too drunk passed out for example then its rape. You cannot shag somebody and decide that its rape after, well you can I suppose but you would be lying.

I agree with above, what is both parties are very very drunk?
And as much as I hate to say it, some women say they've been raped because theyve regretted sleeping wih someone and is very unfair.

The whole thing seems a bit sexist, only women get raped and the big bad wolves are men who take advantage. Very tactless,

Wompa1

booboo88 wrote: »

I agree with above, what is both parties are very very drunk?
And as much as I hate to say it, some women say they've been raped because theyve regretted sleeping wih someone and is very unfair.

The whole thing seems a bit sexist, only women get raped and the big bad wolves are men who take advantage. Very tactless,

True for you. I think a good example is statutory rape when it's an under-age boy who has sex with an under-age girl. The boy is seen as the guilty party...it's sexist BS. The woman is seen as more vulnerable.

Sonics2k

getz wrote: »

come on,all men in the right circumstances are rapists,by the very fact that they have a larger sex drive,very rare is a man raped by a woman.

That's just ignorant and wrong. I may as well go onto the tLL and say

"Come on, all women who've had a few drinks, wear short skirts, and smiled at me are up for a shag"

Hell, if I said that I reckon quite a lot of the posters would (rightfully) want to chase me down with pitchforks and torches.

/ontopic
It's a dangerous thing precedent to try and set here. If the woman has had a few drinks, then she can't give consent. That's just crazy talk. I'll admit to having quite a few one-night stands in my time, but the idea that this could be called Rape because we'd had a few drinks is astoundingly insane!

Otis Driftwood

Folks,Getz's comment has been addressed by Dr G,leave it at that please.