Is religion good?

Eathrin

Is religion beneficial to society? Is religion the reason why humans have morals and ethics? Would the absence of religion have caused more or less wars?

I am of course not asking if belief in the imaginary is a good thing but the other aspects of organised religion.

Eramen

Religion (if you don't know what it is, look the etymology) or 'organised religion'?

Dades

You might as well ask is medicine good. It depends on the dosage.

And most people don't need it at all.

MagicMarker

If it's based on a false premise then does it matter?

MrPudding

Cian A wrote: »

Is religion beneficial to society? Is religion the reason why humans have morals and ethics? Would the absence of religion have caused more or less wars?

I am of course not asking if belief in the imaginary is a good thing but the other aspects of organised religion.

No. This is easy. Next question.

MrP

seamus

Cian A wrote: »

Is religion the reason why humans have morals and ethics?

No. Morals and ethics typically exist in all animal communities; they regulate the community and ensure that it operates in the best way by having guidelines and ejecting all those who do not conform to those guidelines.

They exist in animal communities, but we tend to call these "instincts" or "pack rules" instead of morals and ethics.

The only real difference with humans is that we've gone one step further and made up rules which don't actually benefit the community, and justified them by slapping the word "moral" on them.

We've come up with plenty of good morals too - morals which typically would not come to a community naturally (such as treating the sexes as equal), but which do benefit the community as a whole. But this is through the application of logic and reason rather than any exclusively religious influence.

saa

In theory yes, beliefs, hope, morals, helping each other, finding solitude.

In practice the institutions of Religion offer restrictions more so than support.

Many things you believe in are imagined, many of your memories are warped and untrue to the events that took place in reality but your mind reconstructs and orders them to cope, some people need to fill in the gap to apply some reason for their existence and I would not say anyone should not do that but I would never believe it is right for a man to put on a robe and say he is speaking for a god.

People will always want to have faith but why they would want to be ordered around by an institution is beyond me, there would be less wars and associated troubles if Religion as we know it vanished completely.

Removing church from state would be a good start though. A sense of a common good, morals and best practice does not need to be governed by a church.

Improbable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5OMNPmoVAw

Sonics2k

Faith and belief can be good, it speaks to many people and can ease their minds as to what may happen when a loved one dies. It's all about comfort really.

"Organised" Religion and it's institutions are nothing more than poison and bile, using faith and paranoia to turn good people into brainless fools. Used and abused by a few powerful people to suit their own agenda.

robindch

Sonics2k wrote: »

Used and abused by a few powerful people to suit their own agenda.

Here's Gibbon's withering summary of the Roman policy towards religion:

Edward Gibbon wrote:

The policy of the emperors and the senate, as far as it concerned religion, was happily seconded by the reflections of the enlightened, and by the habits of the superstitious, part of their subjects. The various modes of worship, which prevailed in the Roman world, were all considered by the people, as equally true; by the philosopher, as equally false; and by the magistrate, as equally useful.

rjfm9

Is religion beneficial to society?

People like Martin Luther King and Mohandas Gandhi were inspired to do the things that they did at least in part if not largely because of their religious beliefs (amongst other things of course).
In Ireland, I see alot of religious people and organisations are caring for street drinkers, drug addicts, abused women and homeless people as well as many other people in need. (This is not to imply that non-religious people do not do the same).

However, this makes does make me think that peoples religious beliefs can be beneficial to society in many ways but arguments could of course be made to the contrary.

Easy and recent example:

1. Religious beliefs were the reason that over 2,000 people died in NYC on September 11th 2001.


Is religion the reason why humans have morals and ethics?

I think that some people may have created, developed, strengthened and put into practice morals and ethics through religious belief but I could never entertain the idea that only through belief in a religion could one attain morals or ethics.

Would the absence of religion have caused more or less wars?

I think that religion (being a set of beliefs regarding the origin and purpose of the universe and everything we could ever possibly perceive) can not be blamed for the absence or presence of wars past or present.

Humans start wars. Not conceptions.

I am well aware that the Christians Crusades were religious wars that were blessed by the Pope. But I think that if you look carefully at the question above, that in my opinion there is no black or white answer to this question.


I am of course not asking if belief in the imaginary is a good thing but the other aspects of organised religion.

I assumed that was exactly what you were asking. What other aspects of organised religion are you interested in?

Hope my thoughts shine some new light on the argument for you.

ShooterSF

rjfm9 wrote: »

Would the absence of religion have caused more or less wars?

I think that religion (being a set of beliefs regarding the origin and purpose of the universe and everything we could ever possibly perceive) can not be blamed for the absence or presence of wars past or present.

Humans start wars. Not conceptions.

I am well aware that the Christians Crusades were religious wars that were blessed by the Pope. But I think that if you look carefully at the question above, that in my opinion there is no black or white answer to this question.

Just on this point as it's one of my biggest issues with religion. Yes humans start wars and usually it's all about power but you also need to give the plebs that will die to get you that power a reason for them to put their ass on the line and religion is one hell of a tool in this respect.
Religions are comforting for many but it's no crazy coincidence that to get the promised comforts you usually have to follow a set of rules or appease a leader...

rjfm9

I would say that alot of the slaves and suppressed people of times gone by refused to fight for their right to life because they were convinced that something better was to come after their death and that their submissiveness in this life would be rewarded in the next.

In fact its probably safe to assume that the same happens still to this day.

Definitely agree with you there Shooter.

MrPudding

Whilst I am not a huge fan of religion, and I wish it simply did not exist, if I am being honest there is one thing that it does that makes me a little bit thankful for its existence.

The one thing is keeping the nutters in line. One of the regular posters on the other side has repeatedly and unapologetically said that were it not for his belief in god he believes that he would spend his days murdering and raping.

So, for those people like our friend form across the way, I suppose religion is a good thing. Clearly this particular person has mental issues and I would prefer if he was able to get the help he needs, but for the moment religion seems to be keeping him in check.

MrP

vibe666

MrPudding wrote: »

The one thing is keeping the nutters in line. One of the regular posters on the other side has repeatedly and unapologetically said that were it not for his belief in god he believes that he would spend his days murdering and raping.

yeah, just wait till "god" decides that yer man needs to start cleansing the sinful masses by raping and murdering them.

it's the same as anything imho, guns, computer games, movies etc. they dont make normal people do nutty things, but they might be the tipping point for the ones that are already fruityloops, although if it wasn't the one thing that puts them over the edge, it would be something else. there's always something else.

no doubt it's the same for wars too. if it wasn't religion, they'd have found another half baked reason to be caving each others heads in, but i suspect that deep down it's always been about wealth and power, same as a lot of organised religion.

seamus

vibe666 wrote: »

no doubt it's the same for wars too. if it wasn't religion, they'd have found another half baked reason to be caving each others heads in, but i suspect that deep down it's always been about wealth and power, same as a lot of organised religion.

It's not even that "deep down" IMO, it's quite blatant. Just look at the Vatican. If the purpose of Catholicism wasn't wealth and power, el Vaticano would have been sold for parts long ago.

vibe666

seamus wrote: »

It's not even that "deep down" IMO, it's quite blatant. Just look at the Vatican. If the purpose of Catholicism wasn't wealth and power, el Vaticano would have been sold for parts long ago.

i was actually going to mention emperor popeltine preaching about helping the poor whilst waearing his golden clothes, sitting on his golden throne in his golden palace (and paying no tax). saw a rumour that the italian government are talking about imposing a property tax on them to boost revenue to get them out of the recession, but i don't know if they'll ever manage it.

jank

Religion is a man made construct. However a belief in a deity is something that most of the world believe in. Be it a god as written in a bible or god that exists in the trees, lakes, plants etc.

The concept of a basic religion is good once that concept is not forced on other people and doesn't interfere or give excuses to be a dick. After all shouldn't free men be able to associate with like minded people and visa versa? The fault of the problems in the world has to do with man. Religion is merely a proxy when this concept which is often good goes bad, sometime very bad.

By the way the Christianity of 2000 years ago is light years away from the Christianity of today. As usual man ****s it up, adds their own rules and whims to justify well being a dick. The key essence of Christianity is forgiveness. You can throw the bible away and just remember that one word. It was a very liberal thing back in the Roman Empire when people were regularly feed to lions for peoples entertainment.

One very final thing though. There has never existed a world without religion (well historic one anyway). To claim that religion is the fault of all the world's ill is simplistic and doesn't recognise the human condition.

dead one

For Centuries, copying other people, I struggled to know myself--- failed to decide what to do .--can't make the grade, I heard my alias being called.Then I walked outside.

Dades

dead one wrote: »

For Centuries, copying other people, I struggled to know myself--- failed to decide what to do .--can't make the grade, I heard my alias being called.Then I walked outside.

Don't forget your umbrella.

robindch

dead one wrote: »

I struggled to know myself

It's no less of a struggle for anybody here to know you.

You'll achieve much more as a poster if you try posting in the general vicinity of the topic at hand, using language that has a meaning.

Thanks will be awarded by random members for posts that are funny, interesting, clever, worth-reading etc.

dead one

Dades wrote: »

Don't forget your umbrella.

The only umbrella reason has, is knowledge---But what you need is a seer’s eye, not reason-- All energy, is but a constant passion to move ---And in this voyage, your is the highest place. -- Life is not the flow of blood in the veins--Its essence is a consuming warmth of the soul.

dead one

robindch wrote: »

It's no less of a struggle for anybody here to know you.

You'll achieve much more as a poster if you try posting in the general vicinity of the topic at hand, using language that has a meaning.

Thanks will be awarded by random members for posts that are funny, interesting, clever, worth-reading etc.

Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats' feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar

sensibleken

dead one wrote: »

The only umbrella reason has, is knowledge---But what you need is a seer’s eye, not reason-- All energy, is but a constant passion to move ---And in this voyage, your is the highest place. -- Life is not the flow of blood in the veins--Its essence is a consuming warmth of the soul.

I hear the eagle fles low in spring.

MrPudding

sensibleken wrote: »

I hear the eagle fles low in spring.

I find threads have much better continuity with DeadOne on ignore.

MrP

dynamot

seamus wrote: »

No. Morals and ethics typically exist in all animal communities; they regulate the community and ensure that it operates in the best way by having guidelines and ejecting all those who do not conform to those guidelines.

They exist in animal communities, but we tend to call these "instincts" or "pack rules" instead of morals and ethics.

The only real difference with humans is that we've gone one step further and made up rules which don't actually benefit the community, and justified them by slapping the word "moral" on them.

We've come up with plenty of good morals too - morals which typically would not come to a community naturally (such as treating the sexes as equal), but which do benefit the community as a whole. But this is through the application of logic and reason rather than any exclusively religious influence.

Well said Sir!

Helix

religion is good for society: it keeps potentially dangerous people in line based on the threat of eternal damnation

religion is bad for society: it incites hatred, discourages education and promotes acceptance without questioning

robindch

Helix wrote: »

it keeps potentially dangerous people in line based on the threat of eternal damnation

It's a common argument, but an unconvincing one, since there's little evidence to suggest that this is true, and some to suggest it's false. Its greatest effect appears to increase the guilt concerning, and perhaps reduce the incidence of, certain behaviours which are the hot-button topics of the religious sect to which the believer belongs. Typically that may be gay sex, abortion etc. But then again, since abortion rates tend to be higher (I suspect for different reasons not related to guilt) amongst religious communities where it's regularly excoriated, it's probably not accurate.

What's not in doubt is that there's a lot of anti-social behaviour around which is legitimized by religious belief (the schools debate here in Ireland being a simple case).

BTW, you've omitted from your list, the possibility that good is stuff done because of religion, but then again, most religiously-organized charity seems designed to benefit the religion as much as possible.

Balancing out these four quantities, bad and good done because of, or in spite of, religious rules, it's certainly not in doubt on this side of the fence that religion causes way, way more harm than good.

Helix

youve only to pop over to the christianity forum to see the kind of unhinged folks who dont seem to understand why people who dont believe in god arent out raping, murdering and stealing all day long. its something ive encountered a huge amount of in real life too. if thats what they think people who dont believe in god would get up to, then obviously that's as good as saying that's exactly what they'd be doing if they didnt believe

Eathrin

At the end of the day, it is nearly always a fear of something that defines our actions.

In the case of some people, it is a fear of punishment from God.

The Quadratic Equation

Helix wrote: »

youve only to pop over to the christianity forum to see the kind of unhinged folks who dont seem to understand why people who dont believe in god arent out raping, murdering and stealing all day long. its something ive encountered a huge amount of in real life too. if thats what they think people who dont believe in god would get up to, then obviously that's as good as saying that's exactly what they'd be doing if they didnt believe

They're not that stupid, it's only what they could get away with they would be up for, but other than that, survival of the fittest takes over, and they can then make up their own morality and justify any action as being for the greater good and prosperity of themselves and their families. The end will always justify the means. No God, no consequences other than the easily circumventable civil authorities.
Simple cost-benefit, risk Vs reward analysis and Darwin baby.

RichieC

80 or 90% of the us prison population is practising religious. so i don't buy that religion keeps people inline.

pedo priests too..

jim jones...

fitz0

jank wrote: »

Religion is a man made construct. However a belief in a deity is something that most of the world believe in. Be it a god as written in a bible or god that exists in the trees, lakes, plants etc.

Which one is right then? They can't all be right but they can all be wrong. And if they are all or mostly wrong, why would there be any benefit in believing in fantasies?

The concept of a basic religion is good once that concept is not forced on other people and doesn't interfere or give excuses to be a dick. After all shouldn't free men be able to associate with like minded people and visa versa? The fault of the problems in the world has to do with man. Religion is merely a proxy when this concept which is often good goes bad, sometime very bad.

By the way the Christianity of 2000 years ago is light years away from the Christianity of today. As usual man ****s it up, adds their own rules and whims to justify well being a dick. The key essence of Christianity is forgiveness. You can throw the bible away and just remember that one word. It was a very liberal thing back in the Roman Empire when people were regularly feed to lions for peoples entertainment.

I'm calling bullsh*t on this. The concept of a basic religion is not good. The base concept of a religion is belief in something because somebody defined something they couldn't explain as being the work of something supernatural. The base concept is faith and that's where the problem is. Faith is utterly foolish when you have nothing bar the word of a "prophet" or a [citation needed] holy book. God did it is not an answer to anything, it is a faith statement that should never be accepted by any rational person and yet is because gullability faith is a "virtue". Believing stuff that has no proof is not a virtue, it's stupidity.

Man ruins everything. That's the gist of what you say, but it's not true. Some men use what they can to grab power, I'd suspect that's a lot of what set religion on the path it took in its formation. What else could have driven the development of such a master and slave system other than the masters (prophets, priests et al) being in a position of power over the slaves (slaves). Man didn't corrupt religion, he created it corrupt.

As for Christianity being different now, I'll agree. It's a whole lot better than it was 2000 years ago. Forgiveness, my hole. Do you think the Christians of Europe throughout the past two millennia forgave those of different religions or sects? The bible tells us to do some fairly horrible stuff, and the New Testament in particular teaches servitude as a virtue. F*ck that, "Render unto Caesar"? Caesar had no right to Palestine except through force and Jesus taught his disciples to be ok with that.

One very final thing though. There has never existed a world without religion (well historic one anyway). To claim that religion is the fault of all the world's ill is simplistic and doesn't recognise the human condition.

Piraha people of north Brazil.

Des Carter

Helix wrote: »

religion is bad for society: discourages education

How does it discourage education? Im not sure where your getting that from but its well known that it was the church who set up the vast majority of schools in Ireland which would suggest the opposite.

As for the original question I think it can be good for society (like the example above) and can give people with similiar beliefs a place to meet and offer support etc. However Im not a fan of the institutionalised religion as the power seems to have corrupted it (child abuse excuse for war etc etc etc) and as a result it is bad for society.

I also think there would be the same amount of wars as all the religious wars were for power as opposed to the religion.

Institutional religion did not create morals and ethics.

Newsite

RichieC wrote: »

80 or 90% of the us prison population is practising religious. so i don't buy that religion keeps people inline.

pedo priests too..

jim jones...

This is the ultimate simplistic view though - the trap which even Hitchens fell into - do you seriously think that 'paedo priests' are Christians?

RichieC

Newsite wrote: »

RichieC wrote: »

80 or 90% of the us prison population is practising religious. so i don't buy that religion keeps people inline.

pedo priests too..

jim jones...

This is the ultimate simplistic view though - the trap which even Hitchens fell into - do you seriously think that 'paedo priests' are Christians?

no true scotsman, aye..

jank

robindch wrote: »

It's a common argument, but an unconvincing one, since there's little evidence to suggest that this is true, and some to suggest it's false. Its greatest effect appears to increase the guilt concerning, and perhaps reduce the incidence of, certain behaviours which are the hot-button topics of the religious sect to which the believer belongs. Typically that may be gay sex, abortion etc. But then again, since abortion rates tend to be higher (I suspect for different reasons not related to guilt) amongst religious communities where it's regularly excoriated, it's probably not accurate.

What's not in doubt is that there's a lot of anti-social behaviour around which is legitimized by religious belief (the schools debate here in Ireland being a simple case).

BTW, you've omitted from your list, the possibility that good is stuff done because of religion, but then again, most religiously-organized charity seems designed to benefit the religion as much as possible.

Balancing out these four quantities, bad and good done because of, or in spite of, religious rules, it's certainly not in doubt on this side of the fence that religion causes way, way more harm than good.

Wow a really convincing arguement there..... NOT!
Also I disagree with your statement about charity within religious organisations. How many atheist organisations contributed as much to charity and education?
St Vincent de Paul and Simon are two of the best known charties in Ireland that do brilliant work among the community and do not care if you are a christian, pagan or atheist.

jank

RichieC wrote: »

no true scotsman, aye..

I see your jim jones and raise you, Pol Pot, Mao, and Stalin. What do they and Jim Jones have in common. They are human which are falable. As I said Relgion is a proxy of man. Its not that hard to comprehend really.

The Quadratic Equation

robindch wrote: »

Hmm... managing one spelling mistake and two punctuation errors in a fully content-free reply, you could be the proud owner of the forum's new Total Vacuity award!

Why the capital 'T' and 'V' and small 'a' and where's your content ?

robindch

jank wrote: »

Wow a really convincing arguement there..... NOT!

Hmm... managing one spelling mistake and two punctuation errors in a fully content-free reply, you could be the proud owner of the forum's new Total Vacuity award!

jank wrote: »

They are human which are falable.

Bubbles.

RichieC

jank wrote: »

RichieC wrote: »

no true scotsman, aye..

I see your jim jones and raise you, Pol Pot, Mao, and Stalin. What do they and Jim Jones have in common. They are human which are falable. As I said Relgion is a proxy of man. Its not that hard to comprehend really.

none of those men did what they did in the name of atheism. they wanted themselves raised to the level of god.

we are all only human. there is nothing higher you can compare us to.

you really cant argue your case without dragging religious mumbo jumbo into it so I will end our interaction here.

happy holidays.

jank

fitz0 wrote: »

Which one is right then? They can't all be right but they can all be wrong. And if they are all or mostly wrong, why would there be any benefit in believing in fantasies?.

What is the obsession of being right? I think the whole question here is to questions things even god forbid Atheism. Humans are curious and will questions things all the time. People can come up with their own answers. It is not up to you or me to tell them they are right or wrong.

fitz0 wrote: »

I'm calling bullsh*t on this. The concept of a basic religion is not good. The base concept of a religion is belief in something because somebody defined something they couldn't explain as being the work of something supernatural. The base concept is faith and that's where the problem is. Faith is utterly foolish when you have nothing bar the word of a "prophet" or a [citation needed] holy book. God did it is not an answer to anything, it is a faith statement that should never be accepted by any rational person and yet is because gullability faith is a "virtue". Believing stuff that has no proof is not a virtue, it's stupidity. ?

Therefore things like love, loyalty, honour, even emotions is not good because they are stupid. Lots of things are based on faith even democracy. We do not live in a binary world even though most atheists would love to.

fitz0 wrote: »

Man ruins everything. That's the gist of what you say, but it's not true. Some men use what they can to grab power, I'd suspect that's a lot of what set religion on the path it took in its formation. What else could have driven the development of such a master and slave system other than the masters (prophets, priests et al) being in a position of power over the slaves (slaves). Man didn't corrupt religion, he created it corrupt.?

Its not true because...? Why?
You should re-read my post. The basic concept of Religion is good but men used it to their own ends much like everything else they created.
You say religion is created corrupt. Yes, because it was created by man! If you think getting rid of it would create a better world, is stupid utopian thinking. Lots of things look good in paper, in practice though well things dont work out so well.

fitz0 wrote: »

As for Christianity being different now, I'll agree. It's a whole lot better than it was 2000 years ago. Forgiveness, my hole. Do you think the Christians of Europe throughout the past two millennia forgave those of different religions or sects? The bible tells us to do some fairly horrible stuff, and the New Testament in particular teaches servitude as a virtue. F*ck that, "Render unto Caesar"? Caesar had no right to Palestine except through force and Jesus taught his disciples to be ok with that. ?

Who gives a crap about the bible? I dont. As I said throw it away and remember one word from it.

fitz0 wrote: »

Piraha people of north Brazil.

Are you serious? LOL

fitz0

jank wrote: »

What is the obsession of being right? I think the whole question here is to questions things even god forbid Atheism. Humans are curious and will questions things all the time. People can come up with their own answers. It is not up to you or me to tell them they are right or wrong.

It's not about being right, it's more about not being wrong. Why would believing in something that is in all likeliness not true benefit anyone? Sure you can say that religion is an ethical code to live by with supernatural mumbo jumbo tacked on. But since religion maintains that supernatural mumbo jumbo is an integral part of ethics and morality and is very much real and present, how does that benefit people? By teaching them that magic is real and that there is some cosmic master(s) is in charge of the universe? It's nonsensical.

Like you say, we question things all the time. But the answers we come up with aren't always the correct answer. I don't think you'll find a single person on this forum who wouldn't tell you to question everything even atheism, which you seem to think off limits for us. We have no such compunction about questioning our lack of faith, the whole position is a result of intense examining of beliefs and as such is always up for re-examination.

Therefore things like love, loyalty, honour, even emotions is not good because they are stupid. Lots of things are based on faith even democracy. We do not live in a binary world even though most atheists would love to.

I think you're stretching a bit far to make this connection. Love, loyalty and such all have tangible effects on our minds and on the real world. Give me one demonstrable time when a god has had a direct impact on the world. Democracy is based on politicians selling themselves as a good candidate and the masses buying what they're selling. If they take it on faith that their candidate will do as he says without looking at his record then that's their choice.

Now maybe you could answer the point of the basis of religion (faith) being positive or negative, 1 or 0 if you will.:p

Its not true because...? Why?
You should re-read my post. The basic concept of Religion is good but men used it to their own ends much like everything else they created.
You say religion is created corrupt. Yes, because it was created by man! If you think getting rid of it would create a better world, is stupid utopian thinking. Lots of things look good in paper, in practice though well things dont work out so well.

It's not true because in the context you were speaking of there was some perfect system that man translated badly into reality. Man no more corrupted religion than he corrupted the internet. Perhaps he didn't see how it would develop over time for bad or good but nonetheless. I've been through the basic concepts as I interpret them, theres nothing for me to add. I didn't say the world would be better without religion, I have no idea what that would be like. I'd like to think it would be a better place given what religion does to people. Maybe we would all be happier in the acceptance of the natural order or maybe we'd all be huddling in caves throwing stones at the shadows. Who knows? But the day I stop "stupid utopian thinking" and accept all the crap that goes on in the world as all there is will be a very bad day for me.

I'm not sure if this is what you mean but when you say created by man, I get the distinct impression that you think there is some higher rank on the food chain that would do a better job than man. Some perfection that you are comparing all other efforts to. If man didn't create religion to suit his own needs then it would not have been created at all.

Are you serious? LOL

Quite. They're a people who have no concept of religion. They don't seem to care for it either, deconverting the missionary that went to convert them.

...

lol

jank

robindch wrote: »

Hmm... managing one spelling mistake and two punctuation errors in a fully content-free reply, you could be the proud owner of the forum's new Total Vacuity award!Bubbles.

Pot kettle, then again you have an agenda.

Squeak?:rolleyes:

Wow, Humans are now Peeeeerfeeect! Right?

jank

RichieC wrote: »

none of those men did what they did in the name of atheism. they wanted themselves raised to the level of god.

we are all only human. there is nothing higher you can compare us to.

you really cant argue your case without dragging religious mumbo jumbo into it so I will end our interaction here.

happy holidays.

Ah so you give yourself a nice get out clause so dont even have to question any answer I give even though I may not mention religion at all. How old are u? 5?

For a bunch of people who are seeking proof, logic, reason and all that you seem to have a very simplistic view on the world as if people are robots or vulcans.Well this is not Star Trek, this is reality.

Anyway, are the 80% to 90% of people in Jail in the US there because they commited crime in the name of religion? Come on now it was YOU who mentioned this, then you changed the goal posts to suit your arguement. A very very very small proportion of the population do things which are wrong in the name of Religion. Man is the problem, not religion.

Sonics2k

jank wrote: »

For a bunch of people who are seeking proof, logic, reason and all that you seem to have a very simplistic view on the world as if people are robots or vulcans.Well this is not Star Trek, this is reality.

Speak of reality.
Believe in invisible all powerful "Father", who makes us imperfect, riddled with diseases amongst the young and innocent, causes floods that kill millions each year etc.

Yes, reality is our problem

Helix

Des Carter wrote: »

How does it discourage education?

"god did it"

RichieC

jank wrote: »

RichieC wrote: »

none of those men did what they did in the name of atheism. they wanted themselves raised to the level of god.

we are all only human. there is nothing higher you can compare us to.

you really cant argue your case without dragging religious mumbo jumbo into it so I will end our interaction here.

happy holidays.

Ah so you give yourself a nice get out clause so dont even have to question any answer I give even though I may not mention religion at all. How old are u? 5?

For a bunch of people who are seeking proof, logic, reason and all that you seem to have a very simplistic view on the world as if people are robots or vulcans.Well this is not Star Trek, this is reality.

Anyway, are the 80% to 90% of people in Jail in the US there because they commited crime in the name of religion? Come on now it was YOU who mentioned this, then you changed the goal posts to suit your arguement. A very very very small proportion of the population do things which are wrong in the name of Religion. Man is the problem, not religion.

/sigh.

read my post again. I never said they were in jail because of religion. I said religion doesnt prevent people commiting crimes.

jank

Sonics2k wrote: »

Speak of reality.
Believe in invisible all powerful "Father", who makes us imperfect, riddled with diseases amongst the young and innocent, causes floods that kill millions each year etc.

Yes, reality is our problem

So you think some religious nutter from Ohio or elsewhere is reflective on the vast majority of people who believe in a deity? Why must atheists always do that. Take the most extreme view or the nTH degree on something, use it as a "fair" comparison for things that are never said because no one here in this thread said the above.

jank

RichieC wrote: »

/sigh.

read my post again. I never said they were in jail because of religion. I said religion doesnt prevent people commiting crimes.

OK, we agree Athiests (Stalin) and Religious people (Jim Jones) cause crime and can act like dicks. Whats the common denominator here. People. I have said this about 5 times in the thread.

Sonics2k

jank wrote: »

So you think some religious nutter from Ohio or elsewhere is reflective on the vast majority of people who believe in a deity? Why must atheists always do that. Take the most extreme view or the nTH degree on something, use it as a "fair" comparison for things that are never said because no one here in this thread said the above.

You've clearly never read my previous posts. Also, I'm not really an Atheist.

I accept the possibility of a "higher power", possibly dating back billions of years.

I don't buy for a moment the Judeo-Christian belief of the earth being 7,000 years old, Noah and the Ark, the Resurrection of Christ, because it's complete nonsense, and in a lot of cases, completely ripped off from other myths of the time.

I have issues with the RCC because they allowed child abusers to get away scot free, this is a fact. I do not think that all Priests would do the same, I have known some wonderful priests in my time.

But please, if you're going to bitch about reality. Please remember you're praying to a Giant Space Ghost who sacrificed his only son, but was also him, after impregnating a virgin, etc.

Ugh, I actually cannot be bothered to type this out again.