David Cameron says the UK is a Christian country

robindch

Britain is suffering from "moral collapse" and "[...] the Bible has helped to give Britain a set of values and morals which make Britain what it is today"? A moment of delicious, if unintentional, truth. But it's a shame that Cameron had to wait until Christopher Hitchens was dead before saying it.

From the BBC:

The Beeb wrote:

David Cameron has said the UK is a Christian country "and we should not be afraid to say so".

In a speech in Oxford on the 400th anniversary of the King James Bible, the prime minister called for a revival of traditional Christian values to counter Britain's "moral collapse". He said "live and let live" had too often become "do what you please".

The PM said it was wrong to suggest that standing up for Christianity was "somehow doing down other faiths". Describing himself as a "committed" but only "vaguely practising" Christian, the PM admitted he was "full of doubts" about big theological issues.

But he staunchly defended the role of religion in politics and said the Bible in particular was crucial to British values. "We are a Christian country and we should not be afraid to say so," he told the audience at Christ Church.

"Let me be clear: I am not in any way saying that to have another faith - or no faith - is somehow wrong. "I know and fully respect that many people in this country do not have a religion.

"And I am also incredibly proud that Britain is home to many different faith communities, who do so much to make our country stronger. "But what I am saying is that the Bible has helped to give Britain a set of values and morals which make Britain what it is today."

Mr Cameron said people often argued that "politicians shouldn't 'do God'" - a reference to a comment famously made by former No 10 spin doctor Alistair Campbell when Tony Blair was asked about his religion. "If by that they mean we shouldn't try to claim a direct line to God for one particular political party, they could not be more right," the PM said.

"But we shouldn't let our caution about that stand in the way of recognising both what our faith communities bring to our country, and also just how incredibly important faith is to so many people in Britain." Mr Cameron also said it was "easier for people to believe and practise other faiths when Britain has confidence in its Christian identity".

"Many people tell me it is much easier to be Jewish or Muslim here in Britain than it is in a secular country like France," he said. "Why? Because the tolerance that Christianity demands of our society provides greater space for other religious faiths too. "And because many of the values of a Christian country are shared by people of all faiths and indeed by people of no faith at all."

getz

so ,britain is a christian country even though not many of its christians do not go to church,all cameron is trying to do[as all politicians do] trying blame the lack of religion on the recent vandalism,strange really when you realise northern ireland is more religious yet has more problems.

Delirium

As someone said on twitter, "Cameron calls for a return to 'Christian values'. Suspect he doesn't mean those inconvenient ones about taking care of the poor though."

And it's somewhat depressing that he is making a statement that will alienate all non-Christians, be they Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist etc.

getz

koth wrote: »

As someone said on twitter, "Cameron calls for a return to 'Christian values'. Suspect he doesn't mean those inconvenient ones about taking care of the poor though."

And it's somewhat depressing that he is making a statement that will alienate all non-Christians, be they Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist etc.

wont bother them ,or they would not keep trying to get into the country in the first place

hoorsmelt

Cameron is a hypocrite- he was a member of the Bullingdon Club at Oxford, which specialised in drunken binges and destructive rampages. Is destroying restaurants 'moral collapse' or just a bit of harmless pranking? To me it's no different from people who went on the rampage in August, only difference being Cameron and his buddies were never going to have the book thrown at them for their actions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullingdon_Club

An awful lot of people, if not most of the population, have tried cannabis at some point; some enjoy it still.

Not very many have made a habit of dressing up in £1,200 tailcoats before getting hogwhimperingly drunk on champagne and destroying restaurant dining rooms.

Naturally, being young gentlemen, they pay for all the damage afterwards.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23385412-camerons-cronies-in-the-bullingdon-class-of-87.do

Delirium

getz wrote: »

wont bother them ,or they would not keep trying to get into the country in the first place

with all due respect, getz, there are many generations of non-Christian English people in England. Not every native is Christian.

Gordon

David Cameron says a lot of things, as do most politicians.

ItsAWindUp

Cameron is an idiot.

getz

koth wrote: »

with all due respect, getz, there are many generations of non-Christian English people in England. Not every native is Christian.

christian countries are generally more tolerant than non christian countries,and the UK has always has a wide spead of culture and religions,but i think he is aiming his remarks at the young [mainly christians] who are out of control ,

DeVore

The idea of religions claiming a countr drives me so freakin' mad. I *hate* it when they use "Irelands a christian country" to justify some hateful restriction on XYZ.

If an Iman said "I claim Britain as a Muslim country" the papers would be in uproar.

I thoroughly reject the idea that you can only be moral if you are religious. That's an outright lie.

Perhaps Mr Cameron means the christian values which are currently being uncovered in Holland?


DeV.

getz

DeVore wrote: »

The idea of religions claiming a countr drives me so freakin' mad. I *hate* it when they use "Irelands a christian country" to justify some hateful restriction on XYZ.

If an Iman said "I claim Britain as a Muslim country" the papers would be in uproar.

I thoroughly reject the idea that you can only be moral if you are religious. That's an outright lie.

Perhaps Mr Cameron means the christian values which are currently being uncovered in Holland?


DeV.

its not christians or christianity that is at fault,its the churches themselves that have been corrupted, but cameron is a politician, politician/corruption same thing

bnt

Richard Dawkins will be on Sky News today, around 1:30PM, to respond to this (source).

Funnily enough, I don't expect RD to be quite as angry about this as some seem to be expecting. He's already said he's happy to call himself a "cultural Christian". On the other hand, Cameron's remarks could be taken as insulting to non-Christians, despite him saying that's not what he means. As if he's saying you can only have your own morals if you're a Christian, and any morals you've "picked up" came from Christianity?

(Don't ask me - as I've said before, I don't have Morals, but I do have Ethics.)

getz

bnt wrote: »

Richard Dawkins will be on Sky News today, around 1:30PM, to respond to this (source).

Funnily enough, I don't expect RD to be quite as angry about this as some seem to be expecting. He's already said he's happy to call himself a "cultural Christian". On the other hand, Cameron's remarks could be taken as insulting to non-Christians, despite him saying that's not what he means. As if he's saying you can only have your own morals if you're a Christian, and any morals you've "picked up" came from Christianity?

(Don't ask me - as I've said before, I don't have Morals, but I do have Ethics.)

he is talking about christian morals,they now seem to be different from other peoples morals, and is ethics near suthics or wethics ?

Dades

Since when was "live and let live" a tenet of Christianity? My arse.

This sounds like a lot of flolloping.

Cameron wrote:

"Let me be clear: I am not in any way saying that to have another faith - or no faith - is somehow wrong. "I know and fully respect that many people in this country do not have a religion.

"And I am also incredibly proud that Britain is home to many different faith communities, who do so much to make our country stronger. "But what I am saying is that the Bible has helped to give Britain a set of values and morals which make Britain what it is today."

To be honest, I expect he had to say something like that at the event in question.

philologos

Britain is definitely not majority Christian. I'd sum it up by saying that Britain largely is agnostic on belief. Not that Christianity has driven to a halt in Britain, it is still accounts for a significant minority of the population.

I don't think that David Cameron said that one must be Christian to be moral however. It seems like he's said that the Bible informed British values in one way or another. This has been a topical issue right throughout 2011 given that it has been 400 years since the King James Bible came into existence.

As for the Bullingdon Club stuff, it is important to note that people can change and do. Just because someone has done something years ago doesn't necessarily mean that they are the exact same at a different juncture in time. I think most people would agree with that.

DeVore wrote:

Perhaps Mr Cameron means the christian values which are currently being uncovered in Holland?

Tripe.

Christianity is a standard which is independent from any given institution. The RCC as an institution has failed tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people. Christianity has remained the same irrespective, in failing these people the RCC failed to live according to Christianity.

Dave!

He makes this remark a few days after that survey showed that about 50% of Brits self-identified as 'non-religious' (or similar) ?

What a gimp

bnt

When I heard Cameron's remarks, you know what it reminded me of? It reminded me of the last time a Conservative PM spoke about "morals": John Major and his 1993 Back To Basics campaign. If you weren't around at that time and wonder how it went ... it did not go well. :eek:

So, I predict at least one major "moral" scandal in the UK Govt in 2012. Any takers?

MagicMarker

Wow, I'd be embarrassed if Enda Kenny came out of with shoite.

Delirium

MagicMarker wrote: »

Wow, I'd be embarrassed if Enda Kenny came out of with shoite.

Seems he did, in 2007

Galvasean

getz wrote: »

christian countries are generally more tolerant than non christian countries,

I respectfully disagree. While certainly countries like the UK are much much more tolerant than countries like Saidi Arabia, are they more tolerant than certain much less religious countries like Sweden and Japan? I don't think so.
Uganda is a very Christian country also, but is one of the most intolerant places on earth. Then when you look at USA it appears (to an outsider at least) that the more heavily christian states tend to be less tolerant than the more secular ones.
To that end I would not say that a Christian ethos is the reason for the UK's tolerance.

jank

Dave! wrote: »

He makes this remark a few days after that survey showed that about 50% of Brits self-identified as 'non-religious' (or similar) ?

What a gimp

How many people believe in god? Quite a majority I would think.
Not believing in a religion is not the same in not believing in God.

Re David Cameron. Will is he wrong factually?

Go ahead and prove it.

Ellis Dee

Gordon wrote: »

David Cameron says a lot of things, as do most politicians.

Yes, and often through their arses.:rolleyes:

Delirium

jank wrote: »

How many people believe in god? Quite a majority I would think.
Not believing in a religion is not the same in not believing in God.

Re David Cameron. Will is he wrong factually?

Go ahead and prove it.

are you saying that Christianity isn't a religion?

MagicMarker

jank wrote: »

How many people believe in god? Quite a majority I would think.
Not believing in a religion is not the same in not believing in God.

Re David Cameron. Will is he wrong factually?

Go ahead and prove it.

And believing in a god is not the same as being a christian.

Is David Cameron factually right?

Go ahead and prove it.

RichieC

Dog whistle politics.

Ellis Dee

There must be an election coming up, or Cameron suspects there is, so he's trying to gain some brownie points with the god-botherers. I suspect, though, that he's pretty out of touch with the common people.:):)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKFTtYx2OHc

Zillah

Whenever a politician does something like this I always find myself wondering if they're actually expressing a heartfelt belief or if it is a calculated gambit for support.

Neither prospect fills me with delight. Anyway, Cameron is a prat.

Eramen

philologos wrote: »

Britain is definitely not majority Christian. I'd sum it up by saying that Britain largely is agnostic on belief. Not that Christianity has driven to a halt in Britain, it is still accounts for a significant minority of the population.

I don't think that David Cameron said that one must be Christian to be moral however. It seems like he's said that the Bible informed British values in one way or another. This has been a topical issue right throughout 2011 given that it has been 400 years since the King James Bible came into existence.

As for the Bullingdon Club stuff, it is important to note that people can change and do. Just because someone has done something years ago doesn't necessarily mean that they are the exact same at a different juncture in time. I think most people would agree with that.



Tripe.

Christianity is a standard which is independent from any given institution. The RCC as an institution has failed tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people. Christianity has remained the same irrespective, in failing these people the RCC failed to live according to Christianity.

Good analysis.

I think you are quite right in stating that Britain is a significantly agnostic country that also holds a largely Christian contemporary culture, whether it be in core-values, the defined mode of morality, or indeed in cultural and customary social traditions. Yet I don't see what all the fuss is over, as it is also true that this culture is acceptant of atheistic participation and even actively seeks it since Christians and atheists are at heart people with the same background, sense of ethics, education and families. There is no real 'difference' in culture, barring religious ritual. All are active within it.

From my own first hand experience the vast majority of atheists and Christians express tolerance and freely involve themselves in social activities and customs that are originally religious or express a Christian leaning. This is a only good thing, and it goes to show that Christians are actually quite acceptant of Atheism's involvement in the national sphere, as it should be, and are willing to meet them halfway.

A comment like this shouldn't be seen as 'bad' or ignorant, it's just the way things are. The religious and atheists, admittedly, are bound together in this culture which both find agreeable. It;s time to stop these petty grievances. The whole religion vs atheism is a /yawn. I think you will find that you share the same values overall tbh.

Lastly you are quite right philologos on Christianity as a religious philosophy vs modern 'churchianity', which is little more than a glorified business venture. Catholics must find it within themselves take back their churches and restore them, just as we all must take back our government and do the same.

Where you find willingness and acceptance on one side, you will find it on the other (to both groups). Let's stop the idiocy.

jank

Religion/Denomination Percent

No religion 45.7
Church of England 20.9
Roman Catholic 9.0
Presbyterian/Church of Scotland 2.8
Methodist 1.9
Other Protestant 2.7
Christian (no denomination) 10.3
Other Christian 0.4
Muslim 3.3
Hindu 1.4
Jewish 0.4
Sikh 0.4
Other Religion 0.4
Refused / NA 0.5

Source: BSA Survey 2007

Do the math, add up up all christian religions and they turn out to be a majority. I am not looking for an argument but people are saying that the UK is not a christian country yet have not provided any facts what so ever to back this up.

For the lazy 48 > 45.7

If you look at census information you get even a greater number who are christian.

Christian 71.6%
No religion 15.5%

From the 2001 census. Interesting to see what numbers the 2011 census will bring out.

Em, so yea whatever way you scew it the UK is a christian country and has been historically for the best path of 1500 years.....

jank

Galvasean wrote: »

I respectfully disagree. While certainly countries like the UK are much much more tolerant than countries like Saidi Arabia, are they more tolerant than certain much less religious countries like Sweden and Japan? I don't think so.
Uganda is a very Christian country also, but is one of the most intolerant places on earth. Then when you look at USA it appears (to an outsider at least) that the more heavily christian states tend to be less tolerant than the more secular ones.
To that end I would not say that a Christian ethos is the reason for the UK's tolerance.

I think you are not seeing the wood from the trees here.
The more secular states in Europe like Sweden were traditionally christian states. There can be no denying that. You can count on one hand how many secular muslims states there are in the world. The UAE is one of the more liberal states in the Muslim world yet you get this type of carry on.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/dubai/7446484/Briton-facing-jail-in-Dubai-for-kissing-in-public-has-no-hard-feelings.html

As for Japan, the place is extremely conservative culturally and socially, in fact a lot of Asia is. They don't have an emphasis on religion like the west and the Muslim world does but their conservatives comes from keeping face and keeping the family's honor. Japans suicide rate is one of the highest in the world because of this social conservatism that expect people to confirm to what it is to be Japanese.

The freest societies in the world are those that traditionally stemmed from a christian background. I don't think you can seriously argue that opposite.
Albania back in the 80's was an official atheist state, however, didn't see many people flock there to be any way more freer than say Sweden or the UK.

The US is very free and it is a total misconception that people think there are gun carry red necks roaming the country in places like Alabama making people go to church. There are places in the US like San Francisco that would stand out as one of the freest in the world in terms of social liberalism. Sure didn't the Hitch move there and live there for years to speak out against the evils of Religion?

Do want to discuss religion in communist places like China or the historic USSR? Because officially it doesnt/didnt exist yet are/were they freer than those people in the UK or the US? Hell no!
If you think no religion = more freedom then you are deluded.

Solair

While I know in reality, day-to-day life in modern Britain is largely secular, it is worth noting the following:

1) It is not a republic.
2) It has an unelected monarch as head of state.
3) That monarch is also head of the ESTABLISHED church.
4) 26 Church of England Bishops sit in the completely undemocratic upper house, The House of Lords as the "Lords Spiritual".
5) The House of Lords is a full-blown legislature which has similar powers to the Irish Senate. It can propose legislation, except "money bills" and can debate or block the passage of legislation from the democratically elected parliament.

So, technically speaking it's a Constitutional Monarchy, with an undemocratic upper House and an established Christian Church that remains wedded to aspects of the system of Government.

So, he does have a point. The Church of England wields an extraordinary amount of legal power, which is totally inappropriate in a modern democracy.

So to say that UK is a "Christian Country" is wholly accurate, I find it quite bizarre, but it is 100% accurate.

Incidentally, Northern Irish (Church of Ireland) Bishops are not represented as the C of I is not "established" anymore. Church of Scotland is Presbyterian and not represented, and Anglican Bishops in Wales are not established either. So, it's basically just the good old C of E clinging onto power!

While I am absolutely opposed to the idea of established churches and state religions, Cameron does have a point given the rather weird setup the UK has.

In practice, it's a secular democratic state that has a lot of different religious groups and a lot of atheists and agnostics, but in legal / constitutional terms, it's anything but! It's basically a slightly modernised medieval monarchy that has had a parliament bolted-on and that now tolerates other religions and atheism!

The Monarch and head of the Church of England appears on every Bank of England coin and note and also on most postage stamps, just in case you forget who really runs the place or get any notions about thinking you're in a Republic!

It's just luck that she's a nice old lady who happens to be rather sensible.
If she ever went all QE I on them, there could be trouble (Particularly for certain tabloid journalists haha)