Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

andrewdeerpark

Freddie59 wrote: »

As in the banks?

Yes indeed AIB, BOI and Anglo. T

Bruthal

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

As I said don't pay then, however the state should then collect with interest and penalties against the asset when the die. Why should the childern get a massive inheritance, property tax free in such cases?

So because there is a tax free allowance of 250k i think, for a son or daughter, your annoyed with this, so ensure they are hit with the property tax at least?

They are two seperate items anyway.

Again id say if you were old and scraping by, you might see it different, or indeed if you were being left a house, you would not be onto revenue complaining about not paying inheritance tax below the 250k threshold.

andrewdeerpark

Freddie59 wrote: »

You certainly come across as it. And uncompassionate into the bargain. Exceptions made for failed banking entities; exceptions made for the public sector; exceptions made for SW; but you want a pensioner to get out of their home? WTF? Seriously?

We are going off topic here however, No exceptions for anyone that owns the house in question. Maybe you miss understood previous posts.

I would not have saved the banks; in particular Anglo (old history now).
Public service wages and pensions would have been cut
The state has to live within its means.

State service have to be paid for and I see no issue with a property TAX. I believe its better than more PAYE, VAT, Excise, CAR TAX as it is consistent easy to collect and stops asset hoarding.

Freddie59

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

We are going off topic here however, No exceptions for anyone that owns the house in question. Maybe you miss understood previous posts.

I would not have saved the banks; in particular Anglo (old history now).
Public service wages and pensions would have been cut
The state has to live within its means.

State service have to be paid for and I see no issue with a property TAX. I believe its better than more PAYE, VAT, Excise, CAR TAX as it is consistent easy to collect and stops asset hoarding.

Fair enough. We seem to agree in the main. We'll just have to agree to differ on this one.

andrewdeerpark

Freddie59 wrote: »

Fair enough. We seem to agree in the main. We'll just have to agree to differ on this one.

Fine with that, always good having a bit of argument and discussion. Anyway this current government is not solving or changing a lot.

crusher000

Some of the arguments are getting down right annoying for and against. Nobody has to justify why we should pay and why we shouldn't pay . It's down to personal choice some think it unfair and others think its fair. Not bothered what anyone thinks but I won't be paying. All the arguments here won't change my mind. This is my last post on this thread because we live in a democracy and it is my democratic right to say no. Leftie, Rightie who gives a ****ey.:)

Paparazzo

black francis wrote: »

RTE reporting around 30% have paid by yesterday evening and still 3days to go!

It seems pragmatism had trumped attempts by the loony left to stir up anger and confusion.

Funny that you seem to think 30% is some sort of victory. It's almost like you're a government worker paid to post propaganda on here.

Micky Dolenz

black francis wrote: »

RTE reporting around 30% have paid by yesterday evening and still 3days to go!

It seems pragmatism had trumped attempts by the loony left to stir up anger and confusion.

What does that even mean anyway? The loony left?

Frank Black

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

What does that even mean anyway? The loony left?

SWP/SF/PBP - all those hard left lunatics.

You know, the ones that wanted a property tax until the Goverenment actually proposed one.

tayto lover

black francis wrote: »

I see the 'Don Pay, Don't Register' posts are becoming increasingly aggressive and personal.

Smacks of defeat and desperation methinks.

ha ha ha. AND how would you describe Hulk Hogan's attempts at scaring the elderly, poor, negative equity and people who just won't pay into forking out THEIR money for HIS "lick-up-to-the-Troika" gambit ?

Paparazzo

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

What does that even mean anyway? The loony left?

I think he thinks that people that haven't paid will read his post and think "oh, I don't want to be associated with looney's" and will pay.
And the 30% is an amazing victory for the government, the non payment brigade have lost, you might as well admit defeat and go and pay.

He'll probably pop up on the next TV licence thread calling us all "spongers"

phil1nj

lugha wrote: »

No, Some road users (albeit a majority) pay motor related taxes and charges, that collectively, greatly exceed the cost of maintaining the road network. So not all users pay and those that do, pay too much. Why not a campaign against the injustice of motor tax??

I'm sure if you look in the motors forum there are plenty of threads about the inequity of motor tax. Also, motor tax, as has been repeatedly pointed out here, is not just for maintaining the roads. It all goes to the exchequer. It used to be called road tax and was ear marked for LA road spending purposes only but then the government bean counters realized that by calling it a motor tax (i.e. a tax for using your car on the national roads network) they could disperse it however they felt was best. The road network get some of it, but not all of it.

lugha wrote: »

I assume you are being amusing (or perhaps a city dweller) with your suggestion that we can avoid using a car? Well yes, you can also avoid income tax by having no income or indeed, the house charge by having no house. Alas, such solutions are not very practical for everyone.

I am neither a city dweller not trying to be amusing but I you can avoid motor tax by not using my car (and of course this brings it own problems mainly how do I get to work with no public transport in my area?). My point still stands though if I don't drive a car I don't pay motor tax (I can still however legally own a car). If I don't buy a home, I don't pay property tax. Since I've already bought a home the second option is not realsitic.

lugha wrote: »

If motor tax was being introduced for the first time no doubt the question would be put “are we now going to be charged a tax for driving in our cars?”. To which the answer in both cases would be: make the case as to why there should be an exemption..

I'm sure there would be arguments like that (not from me). But this property tax has been called a wealth tax which is not the same as motor tax. People have been screaming for motor tax reform for years, but since the price of fuel has skyrocketed in recent months the fairer option of placing it on fuel has now passed them by. But that's a separate argument for another thread.

lugha wrote: »

Why exactly is it a bad thing that those with tax obligations should be unable to avoid them?

This comes back to the fairness question (and in response to the comparison with motor tax). I don't advocate illegal tax avoidence (I don't think I said that) but my point was that there is no way of avoiding a property tax if you are a homeowner, whereas you can avoid motor tax even if you are a car owner (or VAT increases if you are a prudent consumer for that matter). That is all I was saying.

Micky Dolenz

black francis wrote: »

SWP/SF/PBP - all those hard left lunatics.

You know, the ones that wanted a property tax until the Goverenment actually proposed one.

They didn't influence me one bit. You talk about angry and confusion. I can see that only on the government in their attempt to bully the people into doing their will.

Up until last week I was going to pay another €100 on top of the thousands I currently pay annually. One evening while watching the news, this man is talking about propert tax and what will happen if we don't pay it. I sat there thinking, who the fcuk does be think he is talking too. The tone of the campaign was in a similar tone.

Then they tell us they'll send the boys around, and you talk about confusion.

tayto lover

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

All

I have no time for bankers either and you are right on the government in general. They have broken all their promises plus look today they quashed the planning probes: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ryan-accuses-arrogant-govt-over-planning-probes-545351.html

because their councillors would be implicated probably more than FF, as FG / Labour has a majority on most council’s in this period, however no one picks up on this event. They have sneaked this in under the household charge anger.

I think this 100euro household charge is a distraction that is wasting people’s anger in the wrong direction. Good tactics by a clever corrupt government though…..

They wouldn't know a tactic from a tictac.

tayto lover

black francis wrote: »

Can't you read - rte is the source.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0328/26-have-now-paid-household-charge.html

R.T.E. yes indeed. Ask my brother if i'm a liar.

Frank Black

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

They didn't influence me one bit. .

Well, that's good and that was my point, that their campaign was a failure.

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

You talk about angry and confusion. I can see that only on the government in their attempt to bully the people into doing their will. .

Then either you're not looking hard enough or are only hearing what you want to hear. The looney left have been attempting to make polictical capital on the back of this issue for sometime. Thankfully as you've pointed out, it's doesn't seem to be working.

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Up until last week I was going to pay another €100 on top of the thousands I currently pay annually. One evening while watching the news, this man is talking about propert tax and what will happen if we don't pay it. I sat there thinking, who the fcuk does be think he is talking too. The tone of the campaign was in a similar tone.

Then they tell us they'll send the boys around, and you talk about confusion.

I don't let my emotions get in the way of making these kinds of decisions.

“If you don't watch it people will force you one way or the other, into doing what they think you should do, or into just being mule-stubborn and doing the opposite out of spite.” - One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

Micky Dolenz

black francis wrote: »

I don't let my emotions get in the way of making these kinds of decisions.

“If you don't watch it people will force you one way or the other, into doing what they think you should do, or into just being mule-stubborn and doing the opposite out of spite.” - One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

Maybe you should.

I'm done being rode. Everything costs more and we all get less.

As I said earlier. Once the government gets its house and affairs in order it can knock ok my door looking for more.

seamus

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

As I said earlier. Once the government gets its house and affairs in order it can knock ok my door looking for more.

You seem to be under the impression that the government is capable of operating autonomously without our input and that this charge is some kind of subsidy or "hand out" we're providing them with. The simple fact is that if the money's not there, the country goes broke.

Yes, they need to get their affairs in order, but that takes time, and we as a state still need money to pay our bills.

Your only options in this regard are:

1. Pay no extra tax now and the government borrows billions every year until it gets its affairs in order, at which point we all pay more tax again to cover our loans and built-up interest

2. Pay extra tax now to avoid borrowing more, while the government gets its affairs in order and builds a more stable and predictable tax base.

danniemcq

black francis wrote: »

“If you don't watch it people will force you one way or the other, into doing what they think you should do, or into just being mule-stubborn and doing the opposite out of spite.” - One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

I'm all for quotes and what not but when you have to use ones that are from movies to make a point in real life its really scraping the bottom of the barrell.

"Welcome to Earth" - Independence Day

Merch

seamus wrote: »

You seem to be under the impression that the government is capable of operating autonomously without our input and that this charge is some kind of subsidy or "hand out" we're providing them with. The simple fact is that if the money's not there, the country goes broke.

Yes, they need to get their affairs in order, but that takes time, and we as a state still need money to pay our bills.

Your only options in this regard are:

1. Pay no extra tax now and the government borrows billions every year until it gets its affairs in order, at which point we all pay more tax again to cover our loans and built-up interest

2. Pay extra tax now to avoid borrowing more, while the government gets its affairs in order and builds a more stable and predictable tax base.

Id be happy to pay, even the increased amounts, if they show us they are getting things in order by reducing corruption, wastage and inefficiency. If there was value in it, but it just goes into a balck hole, the govt intimidates and threatens us to pay and we dont know what we are getting in return and still they run on inefficiently.

Micky Dolenz

seamus wrote: »

You seem to be under the impression that the government is capable of operating autonomously without our input and that this charge is some kind of subsidy or "hand out" we're providing them with. The simple fact is that if the money's not there, the country goes broke.

Yes, they need to get their affairs in order, but that takes time, and we as a state still need money to pay our bills.

Your only options in this regard are:

1. Pay no extra tax now and the government borrows billions every year until it gets its affairs in order, at which point we all pay more tax again to cover our loans and built-up interest

2. Pay extra tax now to avoid borrowing more, while the government gets its affairs in order and builds a more stable and predictable tax base.

Or just get their finger out.

Suspend pay to suspected corrupt public figures for starters.
Bring in accountability for budgets and mismanagement.
Cut expenses and high wages to public figures now.

There are other ways then serving up a half arsed tax to appease our European overloads.

phil1nj

seamus wrote: »

Yes, they need to get their affairs in order, but that takes time, and we as a state still need money to pay our bills.

But this has been going on now for almost 4 years and there has been no real reform to speak of. We are constantly being told that PS reform is coming, that SW reform is forthcoming, that TDs expenses and the make up of LA and national government is forthcoming. But nothing has/is happening. Yet income levies, USC and property taxes are brought in very quickly with no delays whatsoever. Forgive me for being sceptical that reform will happen anytime during the life of this government (or even the next one). Turkeys don't vote for Christmas unfortunately.

danniemcq

seamus wrote: »

You seem to be under the impression that the government is capable of operating autonomously without our input and that this charge is some kind of subsidy or "hand out" we're providing them with. The simple fact is that if the money's not there, the country goes broke.

Yes, they need to get their affairs in order, but that takes time, and we as a state still need money to pay our bills.

Your only options in this regard are:

1. Pay no extra tax now and the government borrows billions every year until it gets its affairs in order, at which point we all pay more tax again to cover our loans and built-up interest

2. Pay extra tax now to avoid borrowing more, while the government gets its affairs in order and builds a more stable and predictable tax base.

yes its a work in progress but this 160 million that *might* be raised will do next to nothing overall bar make people pissed off and take even more money out of people that can't afford to lose it.

I can see that FG are trying not to back down because if they back down on this there will be a campaign against EVERY new tax or cut they try and impliment.

A middle ground can be found but it seems that they are just not interested and see our country of small protests and complaints as an easy target.

This is the biggest protest against the Government i can remember. It might not have the people on the streets like the last few ones in Dublin but its easy to see how many countrywide are against it by looking at the figures, 60,000 thousand on the street? pah! over a million households (not just people) not paying thats saying something.

lividduck

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Or just get their finger out.

Suspend pay to suspected corrupt public figures for starters.
Bring in accountability for budgets and mismanagement.
Cut expenses and high wages to public figures now.

There are other ways then serving up a half arsed tax to appease our European overloads.

Is that really you Mickey?
I mean calling for sanctions on those Suspected of doing something wrong. Suspected by whom, how deep a suspicion? Can we jail people because we suspect them? Are you prepared to accept personal sanctions applied to you and yours if somebody suspects you might have done something wrong.
Vey surprised at that post , you are usually a rock of common sense.(no offence)

Frank Black

danniemcq wrote: »

I'm all for quotes and what not but when you have to use ones that are from movies to make a point in real life its really scraping the bottom of the barrell.

"Welcome to Earth" - Independence Day

It's actually from the novel (one of my favourites) - but, carry on.

Micky Dolenz

lividduck wrote: »

Is that really you Mickey?
I mean calling for sanctions on those Suspected of doing something wrong. Suspected by whom, how deep a suspicion? Can we jail people because we suspect them? Are you prepared to accept personal sanctions applied to you and yours if somebody suspects you might have done something wrong.
Vey surprised at that post , you are usually a rock of common sense.(no offence)

Those implemented by tribunals. If they take money from the public purse suspend payment pending a criminal investigation. It found not guilty reinstat payment and if found guilty, jail them.

For too long leading public figures have stolen our money and sold our trust for personal gain, all the while laugh at the likes of you and I.


If someone in a job was suspected of fraud they would be held accountable and rightly so.

danniemcq

black francis wrote: »

It's actually from the novel (one of my favourites) - but, carry on.

my bad but point i belive my point still stands,

its part of a fictional story not an actual statement relating to the topic that is being discussed. It sounds great yes i'll admit that but its out of context.

maybe i'm just being pissy today and if so sorry!

Buford Tannen

Hope the fine people of Kerry are paying their household charge

http://http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0111/1224310101325.html



PAYROLL COSTS account for as much as 42 per cent of Kerry County Council’s total expenditure.
More than €50 million is being set aside to pay staff costs this year, including travel, subsistence and pensions. This is out of a total projected expenditure of more than €120 million on roads, water, housing, waste management and other services.
The council’s new head of finance, Angela McAllen, told the annual budget meeting of the local authority that payroll costs continued to rise, despite the fact numbers employed had decreased significantly. Up to 300 people have left Kerry County Council in recent years.
In the planning department, in the 2004 Kerry County Council budget, for instance, at the height of the boom, €2.19 million was set aside for salaries and travel and office expenses of staff.
This was when hundreds of applications for single and large-scale housing developments were flooding the council’s planning department.
This year, applications are at their lowest level since the early 1990s, and both administrative and technical staff numbers have been reduced, as the 2012 budget report shows. Yet, almost €2 million has been set aside to cover salaries and staffing costs in planning.
Some of the staffing costs are quite stark. In one programme concerned with grant schemes for the housing of older people and those with disabilities, more than €465,000 is being set aside to administer just €3.5 million in grants.
The proportion spent on payroll has risen to the 42 per cent of expenditure set aside this year – in 2011 payroll costs accounted for 40 per cent of the overall expenditure and in 2007 salaries and payroll accounted for 38 per cent of overall council spend.
The council has agreed to freeze rates this year.

Frank Black

danniemcq wrote: »

my bad but point i belive my point still stands,

its part of a fictional story not an actual statement relating to the topic that is being discussed. It sounds great yes i'll admit that but its out of context.

maybe i'm just being pissy today and if so sorry!

Of course it's not a comment relating to the Household Charge - but it was never posted in that context.

I'm merely pointing out, that there is so much (justifiable) anger, that sometimes the electorate just want to do something to let the Government know how pissed off and sickened they are by the whole thing.

Believe me, I understand - I'm angry and sickened too.

However, what I'm not going to do, is make important decision based on raw emotion, without at least trying to understand the consequences of my action or inaction.

We're seriously ****ed as a country and in a position where we're having to borrow to fund our day to dau expenses.

Let's get our own house in order quickly - and that includes cutting waste and attempting to stimulate growth.

Vizzy

Buford,
I don't work in Kerry Co Co but I do work in another LA.
Part of the reason that the % salaries & pensions to total expenditure will rise is due the fact that both the Local Government fund and road grants wil have dropped by huge amounts in 2012.
For instance the road grants were reduced by €1.8m in our LA.
Salaries and wages will have dropped since 2011 but not by €.8m,hence the increase in %
Can't comment on the local government fund as I'm not working today but I'll have figures on Monday.