Dunnes Get Their Comeuppance

the groutch

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dunnes-forced-to-pay-euro36m-plasticbag-tax-bill-2962901.html

DUNNES Stores has been ordered to pay a €36.4m tax bill after it failed to prove that certain plastic bags provided on the shop floor were exempt from the levy.
The supermarket chain argued that only bags sold to customers at the checkout should be subject to the 22c charge.
But last night High Court judge Mr Justice John Hedigan ruled that the levy was not limited to carrier bags provided at the till.
He said that bags used to carry loose items, found around the shop floor, are also subject to the charge if they are above regulation size.
The State had earlier argued the disputed bags used by Dunnes were actually suitable for use at the tills.
It was claimed the bags were actually robust enough to carry an extensive range of goods -- and customers could use them for certain products by double and triple bagging them.
It said the bags presented litter and waste problems when available free in large quantities.
The case saw Dunnes challenge a €36.4m Revenue bill which arose over its use of plastic bags, after being served with tax assessments for 2004 to 2008.
It argued that the tax assessments were an unlawful attempt to apply the levy to plastic bags supplied for the purpose of wrapping loose items such as meat, fruit and bread.
The company argued that the definition of a plastic bag was so uncertain that it rendered the regulations invalid.
It also claimed the Revenue Commissioners had refused to provide how it calculated the money that was allegedly due.
Revenue last night confirmed that it calculated the levy that any shop should pay on plastic bags based on tax returns.
However, it would not comment on the specifics of how the €36.4m came into dispute in this case.
Mr Justice Hedigan yesterday ruled against the supermarket chain on all points and found the levy was not limited to carrier bags.
He maintained the intention was to reduce as much as possible the presence of discarded plastic bags littering our towns and countryside.
The judge ruled that the levy applied to all plastic bags provided at supermarkets, shops and service stations except for bags that fall within exemptions provided for in the legislation.
Guidance on Revenue's website confirms the bags which are excluded for the levy.
These include small bags used to contain fresh meat, fish, ice, poultry and used solely to contain loose fruit and vegetables.
Exempt
But these exempt bags should be a particular size -- 250mm wide by 345mm deep by 450mm long.
Mr Justice Hedigan also rejected Dunnes' claim that the law in question -- Section 72 of the Waste Management Act 1996 -- was unclear.
The case has been adjourned for a week to allow the sides consider the judgment.

it's about time that they were shown that nobody is above the law.
will also be interesting to see will we see the return of the 22c bags to Dunnes' tills now that they know they can't avoid paying tax on them.

Ghandee

the groutch wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dunnes-forced-to-pay-euro36m-plasticbag-tax-bill-2962901.html



it's about time that they were shown that nobody is above the law.
will also be interesting to see will we see the return of the 22c bags to Dunnes' tills now that they know they can't avoid paying tax on them.

In fairness, I didnt think the wee plastic bags for broccolli/meat whatever were subject to the bag levy either

Storminateacup

I just buy the roll of bags -- 99 cent for 20 I think.

#cheap.

Morlar

Why is this a good thing ? They will only pass it on to consumers.

jester77

Morlar wrote: »

Why is this a good thing ? They will only pass it on to consumers.

Just bring your own bag!

Storminateacup

Hey guys, it's BYOB time at dunnes!

knuth

Or make the front liners, ie low paid staff suffer through cuts / redundancy.

Great to see revenue spend their time on plastic bags, ****ing idiots.

Ghandee

jester77 wrote: »

Just bring your own bag!

I think these days almost everyone does bring their own bags to Dunnes/Tesco whomever.

Think the issue here is the little bags that the butchers place your meat in, or you put your apples/spuds/broccoli or whatever is the problem.

Dunnes are facing the tax levy on these bags, claiming they didnt realise they too were subject to a charge also.

stargazer 68

Ghandee wrote: »

Think the issue here is the little bags that the butchers place your meat in, or you put your apples/spuds/broccoli or whatever is the problem.

Dunnes are facing the tax levy on these bags, claiming they didnt realise they too were subject to the levy.

The problem is they have to put the meat etc into these little bags- you cant carry the meat in your hand the way you do bananas etc. Its ridiculous. The size of the bags and they will only charge the customer for them in the end.

jester77

Ghandee wrote: »

I think these days almost everyone does bring their own bags to Dunnes/Tesco whomever.

Think the issue here is the little bags that the butchers place your meat in, or you put your apples/spuds/broccoli or whatever is the problem.

Dunnes are facing the tax levy on these bags, claiming they didnt realise they too were subject to the levy.

That's a bit ridiculous and in fairness I can see where Dunnes are coming from. I would usually put fruit and vedge straight into my shopping basket, unless they are heavily covered in earth, but there is no way you could do that for meat.

mackg

the groutch wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dunnes-forced-to-pay-euro36m-plasticbag-tax-bill-2962901.html



it's about time that they were shown that nobody is above the law.
will also be interesting to see will we see the return of the 22c bags to Dunnes' tills now that they know they can't avoid paying tax on them.

From the thread title I was thinking this was about serious worker exploitation or selling food that was a health hazard, but no, dodging the fcuking bag levy? We're getting outraged a little too easily these days by the looks of it.

gigino

Dovies wrote: »

The problem is they have to put the meat etc into these little bags- you cant carry the meat in your hand the way you do bananas etc. Its ridiculous. The size of the bags and they will only charge the customer for them in the end.

+1. Tesco and all the little shops give these little thin flimsy bags out for free too.
Its just another tax by the government....the workers in Dunnes and all the shops are struggling to make a living, and have no pensions ; by contrast the average public servant salary is 48k and they get great pensions by comparison. If every shop, inc little shops like my local greengrocer, has to pay these extra charges its just another tax to the public service.

mackg

I worked in dunes for a good while and tbf the old bags were on the small side and no real good for broccoli or cauliflower, you could carry other stuff in them but you would need about 20 or more to carry an average shop.

charlietheminxx

This IS ridiculous.... punishing an Irish company supporting Irish jobs to the tune of €36m..... over the size of those thin plastic bags for fruit/meat? It's not like they have disregarded the law on carrier bags

Jesus Wept

The difference is they're Irish.

K-9

gigino wrote: »

+1. Tesco and all the little shops give these little thin flimsy bags out for free too.
Its just another tax by the government....the workers in Dunnes and all the shops are struggling to make a living, and have no pensions ; by contrast the average public servant salary is 48k and they get great pensions by comparison. If every shop, inc little shops like my local greengrocer, has to pay these extra charges its just another tax to the public service.

Jaysus, I have to hand it to you, using a thread about the plastic bag levy to get yet another dig in about Public Sector pay. Ingenious.

I'm surprised these bags are covered by the levy as well. I don't think anywhere I shop in charges for them, I presume they account for it themselves.

Solair

I don't really see why Dunnes is being singled out for this one. As far as I was aware, the general view was that the small bags for food items were exempt from this levy and that it only applied to plastic carrier bags.

I have never been charged for small food bags in any supermarket that I have used in Ireland or any small shop for that matter.

From what I can see it's just revenue making an example of Dunnes and going after a big fish so they can bring in an extra few million.

Surely if there is a redefinition of this rule, it should not be applied retrospectively as I genuinely do not think that Dunnes or anyone else were trying to evade tax, rather they were doing something that was generally accepted as in line with the correct interpretation of the law.

Also, does this now mean that Revenue will now start going after every retailer retrospectively for huge amounts of tax based on a mix up of interpretation of the law?

Some of the big multiples may have deep enough pockets to cover this, but there are a lot of retailers, including multiples, who might go under if you start imposing large amounts of back-tax on them. They all run very tight ships and do not have much margin at the moment and this is absolutely not the time to start penalising retailers over some bureaucratic faux pas.

As far as I can see, this Government has absolutely no idea what it is up to. The right hand doesn't seem to know what the left hand is doing. You cannot do something like this and not expect consequences in terms of closing / shrinking businesses and job losses.

I mean, from Dunnes perspective, that cost could end up being passed on in terms of cutbacks in employment or maybe even cutting the fat by closing under-performing stores. Is that what state policy is?

By all means, clarify the law, but do not start applying the clarification retrospectively !

Also, if Dunnes and others were misinterpreting the law, why didn't Revenue go after them years ago rather than let this situation spiral out of all control and create huge bills?

Dunnes and others, if they were aware of this requirements, would quite likely have moved over to paper fruit bags and other types of meat packaging. There are all sorts of alternatives to plastic bags that retailers could have opted to implement if they were aware of this requirement.

For example, meats can be packed in special coated paper that's heat sealed at the counter. Dunnes already do this with fish.

As far as I can see, this is just Revenue trawling for unexplored reinterpretations that might bring in a few more quid.

ScumLord

I find this a disgusting kick in the balls to give to an Irish company. Even if they did have gigantic bags and where taking the piss this kind of fine is out of order. Surely they should have been given warnings.

Dealing with the Irish government in this country is like dealing with braindead monkeys, you really don't know where you stand and it sometimes it seems like random luck weather your right or wrong.

carfiosaoorl

In my local Dunnes they have rolls of plastic bin bags at the counter that you can buy and use for your shopping. I wonder are these the bags they are talking about rather than the small fruit/veg meat bags. I dont see how they can charge for them

dubstarr

Them little bags for fruit ad veg,people were using them instead of paying for a bag.I used to charge for them when i worked in Tesco if they were not being used for fruit,veg or meat.

Brendog

Anyone else disappointed its not Dunnes as in the Property developer?

K-9

Solair wrote: »

Also, if Dunnes and others were misinterpreting the law, why didn't Revenue go after them years ago rather than let this situation spiral out of all control and create huge bills?

In fairness Revenue did issue 2 assessments a few years ago, this case has been ongoing for a long time.

Customers don't seem to be charged for these small bags so I assume the shops take the hit, or well pass it on in other ways!

Yakult

I really hope Dunnes appeal this b/s action from Revenue and win.

Anyway, don't they have bigger fish to fry, like am.. the b(w)ankers/developers who brought this country to its knees? No, they'll just put in twice the effort to get every penny they can from an Irish business for a fcuking fruit and veg bag. Backwards Country..

V_Moth

Wow. Revenue finally start to get their act together and everyone here is bitiching about how it is a blow to Irish companies. The hypocrisy, it hurts.

Solair

V_Moth wrote: »

Wow. Revenue finally start to get their act together and everyone here is bitiching about how it is a blow to Irish companies. The hypocrisy, it hurts.

This isn't getting your act together, rather it's a case of a badly written piece of legislation which was not implemented correctly / interpreted correctly in the first place and was left wide open for a screw up.

This kind of thing is an example of extremely poorly written, sloppy legislation and sloppy governance.

How difficult is it to write water-tight legislation on something like plastic bag levies!?

If something this simple is that badly worded, it's no wonder the Financial Services / Developer class ran rings around the state.

Legislation should not be so badly written that it can be left open to interpretation. Otherwise, you get state agencies and the courts making it up as the go along and that's really not acceptable in a modern democracy where the legislature should be legislating, not the courts!

Morlar

Solair wrote: »

This isn't getting your act together, rather it's a case of a badly written piece of legislation which was not implemented correctly / interpreted correctly in the first place and was left wide open for a screw up.

This kind of thing is an example of extremely poorly written, sloppy legislation and sloppy governance.

How difficult is it to write water-tight legislation on something like plastic bag levies!?

If something this simple is that badly worded, it's no wonder the Financial Services / Developer class ran rings around the state.

Wasn't this a Green Party deal ?

reprazant

Well, this thread has gone well for the OP.

Mongarra

The argument has been going on for a few years AFAIK and Dunnes could have had a contingency fund pending the outcome.

Anyway, judging from the report on RTÉ news last night, the bags Dunnes supplied seemed to be larger and stronger than the flimsy ones on a roll that the butcher uses and were almost as strong as the "Handy Andy" type white ones that you can buy at a checkout and which were the main target of the levy in the first place.

Solair

Probably, but politicians don't draft legislation, they just propose it.

The civil service actually does the legal mechanics of drafting the bill and it is supposedly checked and audited by a team of legal experts before it goes anywhere.

I'm not sure if this was implemented as part of a bull or as a Ministerial Order, but either way, it's the bureaucrats who do the legal drafting and proofing.

snubbleste

What's the difference between frozen carrots in a plastic bag and putting fresh carrots in a plastic bag?

Ghandee

snubbleste wrote: »

What's the difference between frozen carrots in a plastic bag and putting fresh carrots in a plastic bag?

Just cant come up with a punchline for this....