Dunnes Get Their Comeuppance

the groutch

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dunnes-forced-to-pay-euro36m-plasticbag-tax-bill-2962901.html

DUNNES Stores has been ordered to pay a €36.4m tax bill after it failed to prove that certain plastic bags provided on the shop floor were exempt from the levy.
The supermarket chain argued that only bags sold to customers at the checkout should be subject to the 22c charge.
But last night High Court judge Mr Justice John Hedigan ruled that the levy was not limited to carrier bags provided at the till.
He said that bags used to carry loose items, found around the shop floor, are also subject to the charge if they are above regulation size.
The State had earlier argued the disputed bags used by Dunnes were actually suitable for use at the tills.
It was claimed the bags were actually robust enough to carry an extensive range of goods -- and customers could use them for certain products by double and triple bagging them.
It said the bags presented litter and waste problems when available free in large quantities.
The case saw Dunnes challenge a €36.4m Revenue bill which arose over its use of plastic bags, after being served with tax assessments for 2004 to 2008.
It argued that the tax assessments were an unlawful attempt to apply the levy to plastic bags supplied for the purpose of wrapping loose items such as meat, fruit and bread.
The company argued that the definition of a plastic bag was so uncertain that it rendered the regulations invalid.
It also claimed the Revenue Commissioners had refused to provide how it calculated the money that was allegedly due.
Revenue last night confirmed that it calculated the levy that any shop should pay on plastic bags based on tax returns.
However, it would not comment on the specifics of how the €36.4m came into dispute in this case.
Mr Justice Hedigan yesterday ruled against the supermarket chain on all points and found the levy was not limited to carrier bags.
He maintained the intention was to reduce as much as possible the presence of discarded plastic bags littering our towns and countryside.
The judge ruled that the levy applied to all plastic bags provided at supermarkets, shops and service stations except for bags that fall within exemptions provided for in the legislation.
Guidance on Revenue's website confirms the bags which are excluded for the levy.
These include small bags used to contain fresh meat, fish, ice, poultry and used solely to contain loose fruit and vegetables.
Exempt
But these exempt bags should be a particular size -- 250mm wide by 345mm deep by 450mm long.
Mr Justice Hedigan also rejected Dunnes' claim that the law in question -- Section 72 of the Waste Management Act 1996 -- was unclear.
The case has been adjourned for a week to allow the sides consider the judgment.

it's about time that they were shown that nobody is above the law.
will also be interesting to see will we see the return of the 22c bags to Dunnes' tills now that they know they can't avoid paying tax on them.

Ghandee

the groutch wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dunnes-forced-to-pay-euro36m-plasticbag-tax-bill-2962901.html



it's about time that they were shown that nobody is above the law.
will also be interesting to see will we see the return of the 22c bags to Dunnes' tills now that they know they can't avoid paying tax on them.

In fairness, I didnt think the wee plastic bags for broccolli/meat whatever were subject to the bag levy either

Storminateacup

I just buy the roll of bags -- 99 cent for 20 I think.

#cheap.

Morlar

Why is this a good thing ? They will only pass it on to consumers.

jester77

Morlar wrote: »

Why is this a good thing ? They will only pass it on to consumers.

Just bring your own bag!

Storminateacup

Hey guys, it's BYOB time at dunnes!

knuth

Or make the front liners, ie low paid staff suffer through cuts / redundancy.

Great to see revenue spend their time on plastic bags, ****ing idiots.

Ghandee

jester77 wrote: »

Just bring your own bag!

I think these days almost everyone does bring their own bags to Dunnes/Tesco whomever.

Think the issue here is the little bags that the butchers place your meat in, or you put your apples/spuds/broccoli or whatever is the problem.

Dunnes are facing the tax levy on these bags, claiming they didnt realise they too were subject to a charge also.

stargazer 68

Ghandee wrote: »

Think the issue here is the little bags that the butchers place your meat in, or you put your apples/spuds/broccoli or whatever is the problem.

Dunnes are facing the tax levy on these bags, claiming they didnt realise they too were subject to the levy.

The problem is they have to put the meat etc into these little bags- you cant carry the meat in your hand the way you do bananas etc. Its ridiculous. The size of the bags and they will only charge the customer for them in the end.

jester77

Ghandee wrote: »

I think these days almost everyone does bring their own bags to Dunnes/Tesco whomever.

Think the issue here is the little bags that the butchers place your meat in, or you put your apples/spuds/broccoli or whatever is the problem.

Dunnes are facing the tax levy on these bags, claiming they didnt realise they too were subject to the levy.

That's a bit ridiculous and in fairness I can see where Dunnes are coming from. I would usually put fruit and vedge straight into my shopping basket, unless they are heavily covered in earth, but there is no way you could do that for meat.

mackg

the groutch wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dunnes-forced-to-pay-euro36m-plasticbag-tax-bill-2962901.html



it's about time that they were shown that nobody is above the law.
will also be interesting to see will we see the return of the 22c bags to Dunnes' tills now that they know they can't avoid paying tax on them.

From the thread title I was thinking this was about serious worker exploitation or selling food that was a health hazard, but no, dodging the fcuking bag levy? We're getting outraged a little too easily these days by the looks of it.

gigino

Dovies wrote: »

The problem is they have to put the meat etc into these little bags- you cant carry the meat in your hand the way you do bananas etc. Its ridiculous. The size of the bags and they will only charge the customer for them in the end.

+1. Tesco and all the little shops give these little thin flimsy bags out for free too.
Its just another tax by the government....the workers in Dunnes and all the shops are struggling to make a living, and have no pensions ; by contrast the average public servant salary is 48k and they get great pensions by comparison. If every shop, inc little shops like my local greengrocer, has to pay these extra charges its just another tax to the public service.

mackg

I worked in dunes for a good while and tbf the old bags were on the small side and no real good for broccoli or cauliflower, you could carry other stuff in them but you would need about 20 or more to carry an average shop.

charlietheminxx

This IS ridiculous.... punishing an Irish company supporting Irish jobs to the tune of €36m..... over the size of those thin plastic bags for fruit/meat? It's not like they have disregarded the law on carrier bags

Jesus Wept

The difference is they're Irish.

K-9

gigino wrote: »

+1. Tesco and all the little shops give these little thin flimsy bags out for free too.
Its just another tax by the government....the workers in Dunnes and all the shops are struggling to make a living, and have no pensions ; by contrast the average public servant salary is 48k and they get great pensions by comparison. If every shop, inc little shops like my local greengrocer, has to pay these extra charges its just another tax to the public service.

Jaysus, I have to hand it to you, using a thread about the plastic bag levy to get yet another dig in about Public Sector pay. Ingenious.

I'm surprised these bags are covered by the levy as well. I don't think anywhere I shop in charges for them, I presume they account for it themselves.

Solair

I don't really see why Dunnes is being singled out for this one. As far as I was aware, the general view was that the small bags for food items were exempt from this levy and that it only applied to plastic carrier bags.

I have never been charged for small food bags in any supermarket that I have used in Ireland or any small shop for that matter.

From what I can see it's just revenue making an example of Dunnes and going after a big fish so they can bring in an extra few million.

Surely if there is a redefinition of this rule, it should not be applied retrospectively as I genuinely do not think that Dunnes or anyone else were trying to evade tax, rather they were doing something that was generally accepted as in line with the correct interpretation of the law.

Also, does this now mean that Revenue will now start going after every retailer retrospectively for huge amounts of tax based on a mix up of interpretation of the law?

Some of the big multiples may have deep enough pockets to cover this, but there are a lot of retailers, including multiples, who might go under if you start imposing large amounts of back-tax on them. They all run very tight ships and do not have much margin at the moment and this is absolutely not the time to start penalising retailers over some bureaucratic faux pas.

As far as I can see, this Government has absolutely no idea what it is up to. The right hand doesn't seem to know what the left hand is doing. You cannot do something like this and not expect consequences in terms of closing / shrinking businesses and job losses.

I mean, from Dunnes perspective, that cost could end up being passed on in terms of cutbacks in employment or maybe even cutting the fat by closing under-performing stores. Is that what state policy is?

By all means, clarify the law, but do not start applying the clarification retrospectively !

Also, if Dunnes and others were misinterpreting the law, why didn't Revenue go after them years ago rather than let this situation spiral out of all control and create huge bills?

Dunnes and others, if they were aware of this requirements, would quite likely have moved over to paper fruit bags and other types of meat packaging. There are all sorts of alternatives to plastic bags that retailers could have opted to implement if they were aware of this requirement.

For example, meats can be packed in special coated paper that's heat sealed at the counter. Dunnes already do this with fish.

As far as I can see, this is just Revenue trawling for unexplored reinterpretations that might bring in a few more quid.

ScumLord

I find this a disgusting kick in the balls to give to an Irish company. Even if they did have gigantic bags and where taking the piss this kind of fine is out of order. Surely they should have been given warnings.

Dealing with the Irish government in this country is like dealing with braindead monkeys, you really don't know where you stand and it sometimes it seems like random luck weather your right or wrong.

carfiosaoorl

In my local Dunnes they have rolls of plastic bin bags at the counter that you can buy and use for your shopping. I wonder are these the bags they are talking about rather than the small fruit/veg meat bags. I dont see how they can charge for them

dubstarr

Them little bags for fruit ad veg,people were using them instead of paying for a bag.I used to charge for them when i worked in Tesco if they were not being used for fruit,veg or meat.

Brendog

Anyone else disappointed its not Dunnes as in the Property developer?

K-9

Solair wrote: »

Also, if Dunnes and others were misinterpreting the law, why didn't Revenue go after them years ago rather than let this situation spiral out of all control and create huge bills?

In fairness Revenue did issue 2 assessments a few years ago, this case has been ongoing for a long time.

Customers don't seem to be charged for these small bags so I assume the shops take the hit, or well pass it on in other ways!

Yakult

I really hope Dunnes appeal this b/s action from Revenue and win.

Anyway, don't they have bigger fish to fry, like am.. the b(w)ankers/developers who brought this country to its knees? No, they'll just put in twice the effort to get every penny they can from an Irish business for a fcuking fruit and veg bag. Backwards Country..

V_Moth

Wow. Revenue finally start to get their act together and everyone here is bitiching about how it is a blow to Irish companies. The hypocrisy, it hurts.

Solair

V_Moth wrote: »

Wow. Revenue finally start to get their act together and everyone here is bitiching about how it is a blow to Irish companies. The hypocrisy, it hurts.

This isn't getting your act together, rather it's a case of a badly written piece of legislation which was not implemented correctly / interpreted correctly in the first place and was left wide open for a screw up.

This kind of thing is an example of extremely poorly written, sloppy legislation and sloppy governance.

How difficult is it to write water-tight legislation on something like plastic bag levies!?

If something this simple is that badly worded, it's no wonder the Financial Services / Developer class ran rings around the state.

Legislation should not be so badly written that it can be left open to interpretation. Otherwise, you get state agencies and the courts making it up as the go along and that's really not acceptable in a modern democracy where the legislature should be legislating, not the courts!

Morlar

Solair wrote: »

This isn't getting your act together, rather it's a case of a badly written piece of legislation which was not implemented correctly / interpreted correctly in the first place and was left wide open for a screw up.

This kind of thing is an example of extremely poorly written, sloppy legislation and sloppy governance.

How difficult is it to write water-tight legislation on something like plastic bag levies!?

If something this simple is that badly worded, it's no wonder the Financial Services / Developer class ran rings around the state.

Wasn't this a Green Party deal ?

reprazant

Well, this thread has gone well for the OP.

Mongarra

The argument has been going on for a few years AFAIK and Dunnes could have had a contingency fund pending the outcome.

Anyway, judging from the report on RTÉ news last night, the bags Dunnes supplied seemed to be larger and stronger than the flimsy ones on a roll that the butcher uses and were almost as strong as the "Handy Andy" type white ones that you can buy at a checkout and which were the main target of the levy in the first place.

Solair

Probably, but politicians don't draft legislation, they just propose it.

The civil service actually does the legal mechanics of drafting the bill and it is supposedly checked and audited by a team of legal experts before it goes anywhere.

I'm not sure if this was implemented as part of a bull or as a Ministerial Order, but either way, it's the bureaucrats who do the legal drafting and proofing.

snubbleste

What's the difference between frozen carrots in a plastic bag and putting fresh carrots in a plastic bag?

Ghandee

snubbleste wrote: »

What's the difference between frozen carrots in a plastic bag and putting fresh carrots in a plastic bag?

Just cant come up with a punchline for this....

Chucky the tree

I'm not sure how anyone can defend Dunnes here, the plastic bag regulation is very clear in what is acceptable and what isn't. It even states it in the OP link which I can only assume most people here didn't read. Here's the actually law:

2) An accountable person shall be accountable for and liable to pay the levy.
4. The amount of the levy shall be 15 cent for each plastic bag.

5. The following classes of plastic bags are excepted from the definition of a plastic bag
(a) plastic bags solely used to contain-
(i) fresh fish and fresh fish products,
(ii) fresh meat and fresh meat products, or
(iii) fresh poultry and fresh poultry products

provided that such bags are not greater in dimension than 225mm in width (exclusive of any gussets), by 345mm in depth (inclusive of any gussets), by 450mm in length, (inclusive of any handles);

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/si/0605.html

I've no idea how that is badly worded or open to interpretation. It seems very clear to me that any bag over those dimensions comes under the plastic bag levy.

Morlar

snubbleste wrote: »

What's the difference between frozen carrots in a plastic bag and putting fresh carrots in a plastic bag?

Apparently about 22c.

msg11

Tesco were up **** creek about 1/2 years ago over this and got handed a big fine also.

Most stores where using the bags on a roll, when they should be using the 'pinch and pull' bags in the brown box.

There was a circular there last year to all stores asking them to make sure they are not using the bags on a roll or placing the bags on the roll on the bakery towers or stands that you pick up your bread from. As it would open a barrel of **** with revenue. It also stated, not too use the bags on a roll for meat, only bags marked 'meat' should be used on the counters even the chicken bags are marked 'chicken'.

In my option, this is the biggest load of ****. Dunnes/Tesco/Supervalu, when this law was brought in it was to tackle people using carrier bags when they didn't need to use them. Are the government honestly expecting, people to bring there own bags for meat and fruit and veg ?

They have the time of day for a supermarket chain that has made a little mistake on there definitions of the law regarding 'bags', yet no one/organisation has been convicted/fined for the absolute disaster the banking sector has brought too the tax payer.

I can see supermarkets just not taking the risk and doing away with bags altogether and if you buy a bit of meat I wouldn't be suprised to see the price of your meat, the price of the bag and then a total in the near future. And people are right this will cost jobs, new and old.

So on that well done!

Seifer

Whole first page of replies and no one read the article in the OP? It clearly states that they were not fined over bags used to contain fresh meat or fruit/veg.

xsiborg

just after getting back from shopping in tesco there and they've doubled the price of their "bags for life" strong bags from 35c to 70c, the girl on the checkout behind me turned round and asked "when did this come in?", "last night" she was told, by the girl that was serving me, her manager only told her this morning.

i wonder is this related?

personally i think this whole bag levy nonsense is ridiculous! :mad:

msg11

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I'm not sure how anyone can defend Dunnes here, the plastic bag regulation is very clear in what is acceptable and what isn't.

Section 5 is what has everyone up in arms.

On one hand it's saying the following bags are exempt from charges. Then it starts to state the size a bag has to be. Why not just state what size the bag should be and anything above it is taxable.

I can honestly see where Dunnes are coming from on this.

They where not charging for bags on the following
(i) fresh fish and fresh fish products,
(ii) fresh meat and fresh meat products, or
(iii) fresh poultry and fresh poultry products

Which are exempt from charge under section 5.

They where charging for shopping carrier bags, which are not exempt from section 5.

Revenue are saying that Dunnes were giving out free bags. In my five years working in a supermarket, I have never ever ever seen anyone carry or attempt to carry there shopping home in them small bags.

smash

the groutch wrote: »

it's about time that they were shown that nobody is above the law.
will also be interesting to see will we see the return of the 22c bags to Dunnes' tills now that they know they can't avoid paying tax on them.

Do you get pleasure from seeing people being screwed over? You know the consumer will foot the bill for this.

Chucky the tree

msg11 wrote: »

Section 5 is what has everyone up in arms.

On one hand it's saying the following bags are exempt from charges. Then it starts to state the size a bag has to be. Why not just state what size the bag should be and anything above it is taxable.

I can honestly see where Dunnes are coming from on this.

They where not charging for bags on the following
(i) fresh fish and fresh fish products,
(ii) fresh meat and fresh meat products, or
(iii) fresh poultry and fresh poultry products

Which are exempt from charge under section 5.

They where charging for shopping carrier bags, which are not exempt from section 5.

Revenue are saying that Dunnes were giving out free bags. In my five years working in a supermarket, I have never ever ever seen anyone carry or attempt to carry there shopping home in them small bags.

It says it is excepted if it is carrying meat, fish etc and it is not bigger than the stated size. It doesn't say or even suggest you can carry meat and fish in a bag of any size you want and it will be exempt.

msg11

Seifer wrote: »

Whole first page of replies and no one read the article in the OP? It clearly states that they were not fined over bags used to contain fresh meat or fruit/veg.

But the bags where provided with the sole intention of been used to carry either fresh fruit/veg or fresh meat. Not too be used as carrier bags. If they had these bags placed at the checkouts with there sole use been used as a carrier bag then I would have a problem.

Are supermarkets going to have to hire staff to make sure you use there bags right if you want them free?

CardBordWindow

As this has been going on for a few years, the odds are that the 36 million euro fine will probably just go back into the Revenue as wages!

sbsquarepants

xsiborg wrote: »

personally i think this whole bag levy nonsense is ridiculous! :mad:

I very much disagree. I think it's been a huge success, where i live used to be littred with literally thousands of plastic bags, caught in every hedge, fence and tree - it was disgusting. Since the bag levy came in the place has cleaned up no end. It was a master stroke.
And for all the astute economic obsevers commenting on the charges being passed on to the consumer. Who do you think was paying for the bags anyway?
This is just one more example of dunnes thinking the rules don't apply to them. Good enough for them!

msg11

Chucky the tree wrote: »

It says it is excepted if it is carrying meat, fish etc and it is not bigger than the stated size. It doesn't say or even suggest you can carry meat and fish in a bag of any size you want and it will be exempt.

So what size where the bags Dunnes had? A few CM over or something, come on this is so PC, Christ sake a 36 Million Euro fine for bags that hold a few mushrooms. Dunnes give out free paper bags if you ask them for them.

I feel sorry for the staff that are going to lose there jobs over this PC bull****. They should have been given a warning, if they didn't listen then fine them.

Plazaman

I think the size of the bags Dunnes had for meat, veg etc is the crux of the matter here. Dunnes used to have the small bags on a roll but they changed supplier and now some of the veg bags now are nearly the same size as the checkout bags and exceed the size limits in the regulations.

It'll be interesting to hear the clarification that comes out of the case if it is a case that if they go back to the older bags will all be right again or will us saps of customers had to fork out yet again.

db

Seifer wrote: »

Whole first page of replies and no one read the article in the OP? It clearly states that they were not fined over bags used to contain fresh meat or fruit/veg.

Seems to me like you are the one who didn't read the article. It clearly states that they were fined over bags used to carry loose items, found around the shop floor.

But last night High Court judge Mr Justice John Hedigan ruled that the levy was not limited to carrier bags provided at the till.
He said that bags used to carry loose items, found around the shop floor, are also subject to the charge if they are above regulation size.
The State had earlier argued the disputed bags used by Dunnes were actually suitable for use at the tills.

Dunnes tend to use bags with handles for fruit and veg. The bag size in the legislation includes the handles so it looks like this is where Dunnes were caught out.

Chucky the tree

msg11 wrote: »

So what size where the bags Dunnes had? A few CM over or something, come on this is so PC, Christ sake a 36 Million Euro fine for bags that hold a few mushrooms. Dunnes give out free paper bags if you ask them for them.

I feel sorry for the staff that are going to lose there jobs over this PC bull****. They should have been given a warning, if they didn't listen then fine them.

No idea what size the bags were. Doesn't make a difference really, they broke the rules. Maybe Dunnes should have provided paper bags for their fish, meat, fruit etc if they didn't want to be fined.

CrazyRabbit

The company argued that the definition of a plastic bag was so uncertain that it rendered the regulations invalid.

Really? If it's plastic, has 3 sealed edges and 1 open edge, then it's a damn plastic bag. How hard is it?

ScumLord

msg11 wrote: »

Are supermarkets going to have to hire staff to make sure you use there bags right if you want them free?

To be fair all they have to do is make sure they don't order any bags over the size and the problems solved. It may be the case Dunnes bought millions of bags to get a good price and were waiting to run out of those bags. If that was the case I think they should have gotten some leniency so they could use up the stock they have as everyone could say they'd order the correct sizes the next time. It wouldn't cause people to start littering in that short space of time, everyone is used to preserving bags at this stage it's just habit.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Maybe Dunnes should have provided paper bags for their fish, meat, fruit etc if they didn't want to be fined.

That doesn't sound like something they could do for hygiene reasons.

Fighting Irish

gigino wrote: »

+1. Tesco and all the little shops give these little thin flimsy bags out for free too.
Its just another tax by the government....the workers in Dunnes and all the shops are struggling to make a living, and have no pensions ; by contrast the average public servant salary is 48k and they get great pensions by comparison. If every shop, inc little shops like my local greengrocer, has to pay these extra charges its just another tax to the public service.

lol, lets find a way to complain about public servants in a plastic bag thread :pac:

K-9

Fighting Irish wrote: »

lol, lets find a way to complain about public servants in a plastic bag thread :pac:

, that's the second comment!

And not a mention of the private sector Dunnes's Accountants who didn't read the legislation properly and check up on it!

knuth

That fine would pay 27 employees at a rate of €25k for one year.