Off the road cars to be taxed....

Jomcc

Just noticed heading from tomorrows Irish Examiner on Vincent Brown stating that
"Motorists face tax bill for 'off the road' cars.

Will be interesting to see what that's about.:rolleyes:

Zonda999

Was just about to start a thread on it, just say it on Vincent Browne. Sounds like something to prevent people selling cars "on the side". I can't see this going down too well..

Nissan doctor

This was floating around months ago. They could never justify forcing people to pay motor tax for cars that are not used.

Jimmy Garlic

I read something about this a couple of weeks back..

LEGISLATION TO stop drivers evading motor tax by declaring their vehicles are off the road and not in use, is being sought by Dublin City Council.

<snip>

Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan, who confirmed at the weekend that motor tax would be increased in the budget, has said he will introduce legislation on non-use declarations as the system was open to abuse.
In a reply to a Dáil question by Fianna Fáil spokesman on finance Michael McGrath, the Minister said the most recently verified figures available to him indicated that the value of “off-the-road declarations” made during the 15 months from May 2009 to July 2010 inclusive was over €94 million.
“I am aware that current procedures governing the making of such declarations may be open to potential abuse. I intend to bring forward legislation to address the issue,”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1129/1224308280463.html


They are completely INSANE.

ann26

probly wont be able to avoid back tax any more so when u say ur car was off the rd in the tax office they tell u to fill in a form and get a gard to sign it and u dont have to pay back tax

id say their will be a lot of cars getting stopped for no tax

if this is whats it on bot its discrasful

(excuse my spelling)

Jimmy Garlic

Nissan doctor wrote: »

This was floating around months ago. They could never justify forcing people to pay motor tax for cars that are not used.

I wouldn't be so sure.

heate

Is there some huge confusion over this tax situation.
I thought we were simply adopting the UK SORN procedures i.e. if you own a car it must be either taxed or declared off the road.
I thought it was in an effort to reduce untaxed cars on the road and waste of Garda time checking?
This sounds all very nice but if the Gardai aren't checking as much people will just take the piss I can understand the department making all taxed for this reson but it does certainly poke at those without te money to tax te car or keeping multiple cars.

Guy:Incognito

Nissan doctor wrote: »

This was floating around months ago. They could never justify forcing people to pay motor tax for cars that are not used.

I dont think there was any suggestion they would. It'll be a system similar to SORN in the UK. iirc, it was just worded really badly by the relelvant minister.

chasm

heate wrote: »

Is there some huge confusion over this tax situation.
I thought we were simply adopting the UK SORN procedures i.e. if you own a car it must be either taxed or declared off the road.
I thought it was in an effort to reduce untaxed cars on the road and waste of Garda time checking?
This sounds all very nice but if the Gardai aren't checking as much people will just take the piss I can understand the department making all taxed for this reson but it does certainly poke at those without te money to tax te car or keeping multiple cars.

From this article in June, that is what they were looking into.

http://examiner.ie/ireland/motor-tax-system-to-change-amid-concern-over-off-the-road-declarations-157006.html

"Mr Hogan said a motor tax system similar to that in Britain is being considered in the context of developing a new motor tax bill. It would meant that motorists could only make off-the-road declarations about future use of their vehicle.

In Britain, every vehicle must be taxed if it is used or kept on a public road.

While it allows for motorists to submit a Statutory Off-Road Notification, they cannot be backdated or applied for retrospectively.

Mr Hogan said he was concerned at the high level of off-the-road declarations being made by motorists and acknowledged that the procedures governing their use was open to abuse.

He said the current rule whereby an off-the-road declaration has to be witnessed by a member of An Garda Síochána could be considered "ineffective".

Mr Hogan said gardaí might only witness the signature on a declaration without being in a position to verify whether the vehicle was in use on the road for the period in question.

He said it was his personal view that the practice was exacerbated by the custom and practice of allowing a month’s grace for the payment of motor tax.

"The common perception that this one month grace period exists probably feeds into the notion that driving without valid motor tax for short periods is acceptable."

_Kaiser_

This is of course, and as usual, purely about money. Money that doesn't go back into the road network or even the country itself - but rather out the door to pay for "our" gambling debts and keep our EU masters happy so Enda and Co can get another "attaboy"

After all, now that they've increased the rates further still, they can't have people avoiding it now can they?? What they fail to mention of course is that the UK system that's being copied includes rates that are far lower for the "average family saloon" than we pay here. I'm now paying something like €660 to tax a 2L TDI Passat - what would that get me in the UK?

Just to be clear however - what galls me about this is not catching the chancers who go half the year without paying a cent, but rather that this measure (like so many others introduced in the last 3 years) won't actually benefit the motoring community at large, or even the country... instead our secondary roads will continue to crumble regardless.

/late night slightly off-topic rant

Owryan

A months grace on your motor tax ??. God in Carlow if its out over a week the gardai will do you.

As for taxing cars that are off the road the current method is open to abuse but this new proposal is only about getting money in.

drunkmonkey

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I'm now paying something like €660 to tax a 2L TDI Passat - what would that get me in the UK?

You can check tax prices here for the UK http://carfueldata.direct.gov.uk/ , there's a small bit of a difference, A nice shiny new Ferrari California will set you back €1188 tax in the first year and then €547 every year after that. Meanwhile back in Ireland..€2258 every year for the next 30, is it any wonder were broke.

MidnightQueen

This is ridiculous. I really doubt that will go ahead. Some people collect cars and what if you have 50 of them in a shed somewhere? Is the government going to make you tax them all??

Guy:Incognito

KittyKat wrote: »

This is ridiculous. I really doubt that will go ahead. Some people collect cars and what if you have 50 of them in a shed somewhere? Is the government going to make you tax them all??

No, but sure why research anything, it'll deprive us of all the reactionary nonsense like most of the posts on this thread.

chasm

KittyKat wrote: »

This is ridiculous. I really doubt that will go ahead. Some people collect cars and what if you have 50 of them in a shed somewhere? Is the government going to make you tax them all??

You wont have to tax them all if they bring in SORN, you notify them in advance that it will be off the road, that's my take on the proposals in the link i put up. Whether that is what is announced is another story.

An Ri rua

Owryan wrote: »

A months grace on your motor tax ??. God in Carlow if its out over a week the gardai will do you.

As for taxing cars that are off the road the current method is open to abuse but this new proposal is only about getting money in.

Its hard to know. I've always been ****ting bricks if I left it a day or two but have it on good account that legally you're legit for that month. Its not a perception, its Garda enforcement policy according to a well-informed guy I know. Opinions anyone? It would be very easy to quosh such a 'perception' through Garda activity unless there is a loophole / provison for it that people are successfully working.

An Ri rua

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

No, but sure why research anything, it'll deprive us of all the reactionary nonsense like most of the posts on this thread.

Not a fan of reactionary nonsense then?

MidnightQueen

My bad, didnt read the other posts.

An Ri rua

Personally, I've never availed of this month's grace that Big Phil is on about. In the interest of fairness and equality and all that sorta mullarkey, I'm owed over 15 years x one month car tax !! Nice one Philly Boy, and I always took you for a big ignorant blueshirt. Happy Christmas after all...........

Edit: I#ll be giving him advance notice, don't worry, that I won't be taxin Betsie for the next 15 months...........

heate

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I'm now paying something like €660 to tax a 2L TDI Passat - what would that get me in the UK?

You can check tax prices here for the UK http://carfueldata.direct.gov.uk/ , there's a small bit of a difference, A nice shiny new Ferrari California will set you back €1188 tax in the first year and then €547 every year after that. Meanwhile back in Ireland..€2258 every year for the next 30, is it any wonder were broke.

The uk tax system is overall fairer but at the lower end of the scale charging between £0 and £30 is a bit of a joke. There'd be no tax collected from post 08 cars if that was the case in Ireland! Everyone would be in a 99g Golf BlueMotion.

chasm

An Ri rua wrote: »

Its hard to know. I've always been ****ting bricks if I left it a day or two but have it on good account that legally you're legit for that month. Its not a perception, its Garda enforcement policy according to a well-informed guy I know. Opinions anyone? It would be very easy to quosh such a 'perception' through Garda activity unless there is a loophole / provison for it that people are successfully working.

It's a month after your tax renewal date that arrears become due, the grace period is only 7 days.

chasm

http://www.donegalcoco.ie/services/informationpoints/roadusers/taxingyourvehicle.htm

The Days of Grace Vehicle Licence is effective for the first seven days of each month.
The 7 days of grace are used in Motor Tax Offices in the following circumstances:

1. To allow applications to be processed for a particular month that are received in the post where the application was posted at the end of a month
received in the Motor Tax Office during the first seven days of the next month
2. To allow applications rejected at the front counter during a particular month and received back in during the first seven days of the next month.
3. To alleviate queues at the beginning of the month.

One month after your tax renewal date, motor tax arrears will become due on your vehicle.

An Ri rua

chasm wrote: »

http://www.donegalcoco.ie/services/informationpoints/roadusers/taxingyourvehicle.htm

The Days of Grace Vehicle Licence is effective for the first seven days of each month.
The 7 days of grace are used in Motor Tax Offices in the following circumstances:

1. To allow applications to be processed for a particular month that are received in the post where the application was posted at the end of a month
received in the Motor Tax Office during the first seven days of the next month
2. To allow applications rejected at the front counter during a particular month and received back in during the first seven days of the next month.
3. To alleviate queues at the beginning of the month.

One month after your tax renewal date, motor tax arrears will become due on your vehicle.

Hmmm, still reckon Big Phil owes me a rebate for all the quarters I've paid ontime for over 15 years. I'll have to write him a letter...

maxfresh

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

€660 to tax a 2L TDI Passat - what would that get me in the UK?

Would be less than 200 euro for 12 months

cyrusdvirus

An Ri rua wrote: »

Hmmm, still reckon Big Phil owes me a rebate for all the quarters I've paid ontime for over 15 years. I'll have to write him a letter...

While i could be falling for someone about to post the McBain "That's the Joke" image The months grace only applies to current taxing.

Example, i pay my tax quarterly and my tax expired in October, but i didn't get my new disc until the last week in November (using the months grace period) my new disc still expires at the end of January, not February

JP 1800

This will be the end for a lot of second cars http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/motorists-face-tax-bill-for-off-the-road-cars-177198.html as I said before this government is devoid of any common sense when it comes to the motorist

ShadowHearth

Right... So I could not afford to tax my skyline for a rip off 1k eu per year. So I took it offroad and decided to save up some money and maybe put it back on road in a year or two.

If they will let this go, then I will have to pay 1k eu per year to see it rot in my yard. I already heard of some proposal of "must have insurance even if it's offroad". So 2.2k per year to see it rot in my yard.

Now I can see all dealers being very happy about this too. Taxing all theyr stock. Some of those cars are for sale for years and it drops in value as it is.


I have no problem with declaring car offroad before I put it of road. It is logical and will make all tax dodgers to tax theyr cars.

corktina

in the UK they have just brought Insurance into the SORN net. I see this as a good move, keeping uninsured and untaxed cars off the road. There, you can declare the car SORN online so it is hardly onerous to do. If you get caught with a SORNd car OTR, they take it off you on the spot, and a big bill and a fine results before you get it back.

drunkmonkey

JP 1800 wrote: »

This will be the end for a lot of second cars http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/motorists-face-tax-bill-for-off-the-road-cars-177198.html as I said before this government is devoid of any common sense when it comes to the motorist

According to that it's the Garda that says the current system is being abused, would it be correct to say the only reason that people are abusing it now is with the help of the Garda as they sign the sheet to certify its off the road. If a Garda believes the person is comitting fraud why then are they still signing off the cars when they know it wasn't off the road, seems like fraudlent policing is the root cause not every parked up car in the country.

CramCycle

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Right... So I could not afford to tax my skyline for a rip off 1k eu per year. So I took it offroad and decided to save up some money and maybe put it back on road in a year or two..

Nope, you will just have to tell them before hand rather than afterwards that it is off the road. Stops people trying to leave the car from being taxed for a month and getting it signed off as such by a garda who couldn't possibly know unless you were caught or pulled over sometime over the month.

CramCycle

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Right... So I could not afford to tax my skyline for a rip off 1k eu per year. So I took it offroad and decided to save up some money and maybe put it back on road in a year or two..

Nope, you will just have to tell them before hand rather than afterwards that it is off the road. Stops people trying to leave the car from being taxed for a month and getting it signed off as such by a garda who couldn't possibly know unless you were caught or pulled over sometime over the month, in which case you could pay for the month.

JP 1800

drunkmonkey wrote: »

According to that it's the Garda that says the current system is being abused, would it be correct to say the only reason that people are abusing it now is with the help of the Garda as they sign the sheet to certify its off the road. If a Garda believes the person is comitting fraud why then are they still signing off the cars when they know it wasn't off the road, seems like fraudlent policing is the root cause not every parked up car in the country.

Sometimes the Gardai check PULSE to see if the vehicle in question has been flagged, sometimes they don't. The problem I have with this proposed legislation is that there will possibly be no provision to declare a car which will be genuinely off the road. I know many people who have more than one car who tax them for the summer months and park them up over winter. A SORN type system is the fairest system but you will always have chancers on the road.

Absurdum

put it on fuel, morons :rolleyes:

CramCycle

JP 1800 wrote: »

. The problem I have with this proposed legislation is that there is no provision to declare a car which has been genuinely off the road.

There is, just go to them as soon as its off the road. If you mean when the system comes in then i can only presume that the system only starts from that date or there will be a chance to declare in retrospect on that one occasion.

Drummerboy08

Im seriously considering not taxing my car.

Im fed up of being sh1t on by this and previous governments.

JP 1800

CramCycle wrote: »

There is, just go to them as soon as its off the road. If you mean when the system comes in then i can only presume that the system only starts from that date or there will be a chance to declare in retrospect on that one occasion.

Sorry I meant in the near future according to the article. There might be no way to declare a car off the road even in genuine circumstances, i.e. a SORN system

corktina

Absurdum wrote: »

put it on fuel, morons :rolleyes:

oh they will

but they wont take it off the windscreen as well....

If you put it on fuel you will get more blackmarket activity and more people filling up north, neither of which is good for our economy. MAKING people tax their cars IS good for our economy.

corktina

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Im seriously considering not taxing my car.

Im fed up of being sh1t on by this and previous governments.

you do that and you have your hand in the pocket of everyone who does pay their dues. The Government is US.

Drummerboy08

corktina wrote: »

you do that and you have your hand in the pocket of everyone who does pay their dues. The Government is US.

Bollix.

Ill consider taxing the car when i actually see the money going back into the roads system.

Until then ill use that money to replace the tyres and shocks that keep getting destroyed by sh1te roads.

ann26

ann26 wrote: »

................

if this is whats it on bot its discrasful

...............

Why is it disgraceful?
There are areas where upto 25% of folks claimed their cars were off the road for a portion of last year, people are abusing the system.

Drummerboy08

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Bollix.

Ill consider taxing the car when i actually see the money going back into the roads system.

Until then ill use that money to replace the tyres and shocks that keep getting destroyed by sh1te roads.

So you won't be taxing the car until you actually see the money going back into the roads system? lol

Let us know how you get on when stopped by a Garda with your motor tax over two months out.

All jokes aside how long are you driving a private car and how many shocks have you had to replace due to them being destroyed by sh1te roads?

Drummerboy08

RoverJames wrote: »

So you won't be taxing the car until you actually see the money going back into the roads system? lol

Let us know how you get on when stopped by a Garda with your motor tax over two months out.

All jokes aside how long are you driving a private car and how many shocks have you had to replace due to them being destroyed by sh1te roads?

My tax is out since the end of august. Its very hard to justify near €400 for three months tax on an 18 year old car for a start but that's a different argument.

I've replaced two shocks and two tyres as a result of damage caused by bad roads. Many people here will have similar stories.

You don't hand over cash to a business without receiving a service or product so i don't see why motor tax is any different. In my opinion motorists are being let down by the government. The take from motor tax is not being invested into our national infrastructure from what i can see, rather it seems to pay for ministerial and councillor expenses

ShadowHearth

Lads, if your car will be stolen, then don't forget to tax it too. You know it has to be taxed.

FlashD

What happens to someone who's emigrated and left a car sitting at home?

Drummerboy08

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

My tax is out since the end of august. Its very hard to justify near €400 for three months tax on an 18 year old car for a start but that's a different argument.

I've replaced two shocks and two tyres as a result of damage caused by bad roads. Many people here will have similar stories.

You don't hand over cash to a business without receiving a service or product so i don't see why motor tax is any different. In my opinion motorists are being let down by the government. The take from motor tax is not being invested into our national infrastructure from what i can see, rather it seems to pay for ministerial and councillor expenses

Motor tax is not a tax that they claim goes back into the road network.


Regarding your thinking that the motor tax seems to pay for ministerial and councillor expenses, the tax goes into the big pot out of which everything is paid for, hospitals, schools, the bank fiasco etc etc so you may well be right to a degree. The take from motor tax is about €700,000,000 iirc.

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Lads, if your car will be stolen, then don't forget to tax it too. You know it has to be taxed.

As folks have mentioned on the thread already the likes of yourself with a car that is off the road will be facilitated.

corktina

RoverJames wrote: »

So you won't be taxing the car until you actually see the money going back into the roads system? lol

Let us know how you get on when stopped by a Garda with your motor tax over two months out.

All jokes aside how long are you driving a private car and how many shocks have you had to replace due to them being destroyed by sh1te roads?

in forty years of driving, I have never had to replace a shock

CramCycle

JP 1800 wrote: »

Sorry I meant in the near future according to the article. There might be no way to declare a car off the road even in genuine circumstances, i.e. a SORN system

The examiner article seems like poorly researched fear mongering. They have not taken into account by the minister himself who indicated that it would be something akin to the UK system. This system gives you the chance to declare a car off road before hand therefore negating the need to tax it, of course if your caught on the road your fined, back taxed the full amount from the last time it was taxed and the car is siezed.

Ergo if you take the car off the road, walk in that day and tell the tax office, you will have to pay up to that date, job done, stops people trying to get there free month.

If they bring in the system that others here seem to think will be brought in, they know that it will fail as you will suddenly see a surge in either car scrappage or "stolen" cars, which will outweigh the level of people who would have had 2 cars on the road at the same time regardless. I could be wrong though and this maybe what they are planning but I would be shocked, well not that shocked but amazed at the stupidity.

mickdw

I hope we get a sorn systrm like UK. Simple and effective. Too many people walking into gardai saying 'sign that guard'

CiniO

OK guys, please explain me one thing, as I just don't get it.

If they introduce a "SORN" like solution in Ireland what difference would that make?

There are people avoiding paying tax now by letting it run out and driving for few months, to declare it was off the road.
With new SORN the same people will declare first car will be off the road and drive it.
No difference at all.

Someone might say that introducing severe penalties for someone caught driving SORNed car will apply. But there are still plenty of areas in rural Ireland where meeting a roadcheck is less likely than meeting dinosaur on the way. With that kind of risk there will be plenty of people who will still avoid paying tax by declaring it off the road in advance and driving it.

coolbeans

Rabble, rabble, bastards makin' us pay txesWhat’s all the moaning about? So they remove a massively flawed current system and replace it one where you declare that your car will be off the road for x months. Loads of chancers have to pay up and the rest of us carry on as usual. Big deal.

CramCycle

CiniO wrote: »

There are people avoiding paying tax now by letting it run out and driving for few months, to declare it was off the road.
With new SORN the same people will declare first car will be off the road and drive it.
No difference at all.

BIG difference, the SORN system means you have declared that it will be off the road and if you wish to bring it back on the road you have to go in and get it taxed beforehand. If you are caught, there are no excuses, you will face the full weight of the law.

Under the current system, there is a reasonable chance you will get away with it for a month or so with no repercussions in many cases, often if caught, you will only have to pay the month of tax (admittedly depends on the Garda who pulled you over it)