God Particle Detected at CERN

MisterEpicurus

http://news.sky.com/home/technology/article/16129043

Scientists are set to confirm they have caught a glimpse of the elusive 'God particle' - the so far theoretical concept that helps to explain some of the mysteries of the Universe.

The Cern physics research centre in Switzerland is expected to reveal that experiments in the Large Hadron Collider have produced signals that provide the clearest evidence yet that the sub-atomic particle exists.
"I am feeling quite a level of excitement," said Oliver Buchmueller, one of the senior scientists seeking the particle.
The Higgs particle, or boson, is a key missing piece in the most widely accepted theory of physics - called the Standard Model - which describes how particles and forces interact.
For more than a year scientists at Cern have been firing particles in opposite directions around a 27km long ring-shaped tunnel 100m below ground.
When the particles have acclerated to almost the speed of light they are encouraged to collide. Sensitive detectors are then used to examine the debris for new particles.
There is still a possibility that the findings are down to chance disturbances, rather than a real observation. Further tests are planned.
"We are moving very close to a conclusion in the first few months of next year," said Dr Buchmueller.
The £6bn experiment is an attempt to replicate the conditions shortly after the Universe was created 13.7 billion years ago in the Big Bang.
The Standard Model of physics predicts that sub-atomic particles should have no mass.
But according to the theory proposed by some scientists, an invisible Higgs force field and an associated boson were created soon after the Big Bang.
These create a drag on other particles, giving them mass.
If the Cern experiments confirm the Higgs boson exists it would fix the biggest hole in the Standard Model - and give credence to what has been a largely mathematical model of how the Universe works.
But if they showed it does not exist it would shake the foundations of modern physics and force a massive rethink on the forces that glue the Universe together.

Sounds Good.

Al Capwned

sounds like ****e

MrStuffins

Thread title is very misleading.

It hasn't been "found" at all.

All of the results will not be put together until March, this is when the proper results will come out.

Scientists have been afraid of this kind of jumping the gun happening and one prominent scientist said only yesterday that when the teams compare results today that this would happen, but it won't be conclusive proof.

Chuck Stone

What's in it for me?

pragmatic1

If it was "The Star" newspaper it would be "boffins discovered...". That irks me.

MisterEpicurus

@ ChuckStone: A blowjob

krudler

pragmatic1 wrote: »

If it was "The Star" newspaper it would be "boffins discovered...". That irks me.

in fairness readers of The Star can consider anyone who reads anything but The Star a "boffin". The ability to tie your own shoelaces makes you a nuclear technician in their eyes.

TheUsual

I love how people with twitter and facebook and a few hours of science on BBC have made them into experts.

I did a lot of Physics in school and college and am happy to say I don't know what they are talking about ... not really.

Chuck Stone

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

@ ChuckStone: A blowjob

Well then the 7.5 billion spent on the big whirly-go-round was worth every cent.

policarp

Big Bang, Black Hole, Uranus, Asteroids, Haemoroids we all came from beside a sh!thole, so why make it seem more sexy?

Haelium

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Well then the 7.5 billion spent on the big whirly-go-round was worth every cent.

Yes, it was, we are now one step closer to understanding the universe.

MisterEpicurus

Bye Bye God, your particle is found

Killer Pigeon

As someone who is half-way through a physics degree and is cramming for an exam in the morning, I firmly couldn't give a toss.

"Higgs this and Hadron that. Terrible stuff. Ride me Boson was another one."

Killer Pigeon

policarp wrote: »

Big Bang, Black Hole, Uranus, Asteroids, Haemoroids we all came from beside a sh!thole, so why make it seem more sexy?

All very nice woody words. Not the tinny sort I would say.

Gaawwwwnnn!!!

Chuck Stone

Haelium wrote: »

Yes, it was, we are now one step closer to understanding the universe.

A load of physicists messing around on a big merry-go-round for particles.

We're still light years away from understanding the universe imo.

Curly Judge

Some extra information here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75966910#post75966910

DonkeyStyle \o/

Chuck Stone wrote: »

What's in it for me?

It wasn't looking good for a while there, but I think it means we're getting hoverboards.

Haelium

Chuck Stone wrote: »

A load of physicists messing around on a big merry-go-round for particles.

We're still light years away from understanding the universe imo.

So you're basically saying that because we're a long way away, we shouldn't bother researching at all?

If scientists took that attitude we would not be where we are today technologically.

krudler

Chuck Stone wrote: »

A load of physicists messing around on a big merry-go-round for particles.

We're still light years away from understanding the universe imo.

a light year is a measure of distance not time. we know that because physicists messed around and figured it out. see how that works?

44leto

Oh dear, they find the God particle and the particle says "let there be light" and everything rebegins again.

Killer Pigeon

Haelium wrote: »

So you're basically saying that because we're a long way away, we shouldn't bother researching at all?

If scientists took that attitude we would not be where we are today technologically.

Nowadays physicists take trivial things they've discovered and make it seem extraordinary, when in actual fact they're just looking for money to pay for their bread rations.

seantorious

Faster than light travelling particles and the higgs boson. In one year thats a good haul. Heres hoping for disease cures next year.

Chuck Stone

krudler wrote: »

a light year is a measure of distance not time.

yeah I know. I was messing.

RichieC

I'm sorta hoping they don't find it. more interesting

CrazyRabbit

It's all a lie. They haven't detected me at all.

---

God

tigger123

It's a Christmas MIRACLE!!

foxyboxer

A photon is checking in for a flight.

"Any baggage?"

"No, I'm travelling light"



*bah-dum-tish*

If we knew how everything in the universe worked it would take the fun out of it. Just over 100 years ago atoms were concusively proven to exist. Imagine what discoveries lie in the next 100 years. The LHC is a practical tool to that end.

Chuck Stone

A neutrino was checking in for a flight and he was standing at the desk before anyone seen him arriving.



Gets coat.

seamus

Chuck Stone wrote: »

A load of physicists messing around on a big merry-go-round for particles.

We're still light years away from understanding the universe imo.

We will never fully understand how the whole thing works, though we'll be able to model it to a very fine degree.

The key here is that every tiny step we take forward in understanding how the universe fits together, allows to make progresses in all areas of science and technology. The reason that you can now get a phone which is capable of storing several libraries' worth of information and performing more calculations in one second than you could hope to do in your entire lifetime, can be directly attributed to tiny steps forward in our understanding of elementary particles over the last fifty years.

At this stage, microchips are designed and assembled almost at the atomic level. Without understanding what forces are at play down there, the chips just wouldn't work as we expect them to. It's not a case that someone invented a microchip and then we just got better at it. Continual discoveries from places like CERN allowed hurdles to be overcome and new developments which allowed us to make better microchips.

And as we know, improvement in electronics have touched virtually every aspect of everyone's life.

foxyboxer

Same with gravity. Why is it so weak? I'm sure the brightest minds on the planet are trying to figure out how if I rub a balloon on my jumper and stick it to the wall the force of electromagnetism on the balloon can overcome the entire earths gravity.

Chuck Stone

seamus wrote: »

And as we know, improvement in electronics have touched virtually every aspect of everyone's life.

Undoubtedly.

I just have reservations and questions about those big prestige projects. Is the 7.5 billion cost of the LHC an ethical way of spending what is in effect the money of European tax-payers?

Would it be better used to research a cure for cancer? Or build and fund a children's hospital for, what, decades?

I don't know.

tigger123

Chuck Stone wrote: »

A neutrino was checking in for a flight and he was standing at the desk before anyone seen him arriving.



Gets coat.

The barman says "we don't serve neutrinos in here"

A neutrino walks into a bar.

marco_polo

seantorious wrote: »

Faster than light travelling particles and the higgs boson. In one year thats a good haul. Heres hoping for disease cures next year.

Well it would likely take the physists 6-7 years to earn a relevant biology/medical doctorate in order to do that, so I think next year is probably a bit optimistic.

hooradiation

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Undoubtedly.

I just have reservations and questions about those big prestige projects. Is the 7.5 billion cost of the LHC an ethical way of spending what is in effect the money of European tax-payers?

Would it be better used to research a cure for cancer? Or build and fund a children's hospital for, what, decades?

I don't know.

Maybe we could have spent that money teaching people that false dichotomies are bullshit.

foxyboxer

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Undoubtedly.

I just have reservations and questions about those big prestige projects. Is the 7.5 billion cost of the LHC an ethical way of spending what is in effect the money of European tax-payers?

Would it be better used to research a cure for cancer? Or build and fund a children's hospital for, what, decades?

I don't know.

In order to boost the proton packets to the energy levels required for the collisions which should detect the bosons requires an infratructure that big. And big aint cheap. It's the human nature aspect. We could simply accept the hypothesis of the boson and be done with it but our curiosity will win out and we'll require conclusive proof. The machines and tools being used which allow for cancer research we could argue have their origins in such pioneering reserch.

Son Of A Vidic

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Would it be better used to research a cure for cancer?

There is too much profit to be made from the multiple drug treatment protocols for this to happen.

ScumLord

I was hoping they don't find the Higgs Boson.

Chuck Stone

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

There is too much profit to be made from the multiple drug treatment protocols for this to happen.

I don't think it could be stopped to be honest. There would need to be an intricate and massive conspiracy to hide a cancer breakthrough.

It just doesn't seem to stand to reason imo.

seamus

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Would it be better used to research a cure for cancer? Or build and fund a children's hospital for, what, decades?

These aren't mutually exclusive goals. Discoveries at CERN will lead to improvements in medicine.

Think about it more objectively - imagine back in the 1940's and 50's that no world war happened and the US and Russia decided to pump all their money into building hospitals or researching cures for the flu rather than building computers.

Hundreds of millions of people who are alive today wouldn't be here if they'd done that.

opinion guy

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

There is too much profit to be made from the multiple drug treatment protocols for this to happen.

Even if we pretended for a minute that was true - the survival times for cancer sufferers are still dismal. It would be int he interests of corporations to greatly extend these survival times so people use their products for longer.

seamus wrote: »

These aren't mutually exclusive goals. Discoveries at CERN will lead to improvements in medicine.

Think about it more objectively - imagine back in the 1940's and 50's that no world war happened and the US and Russia decided to pump all their money into building hospitals or researching cures for the flu rather than building computers.

Hundreds of millions of people who are alive today wouldn't be here if they'd done that.

You analogy is flawed. Computers are a highly practical research project with obvious dividends to be paid (as well as not as obvious ones). Research into the Higgs boson has no chance of having a practical application for many lifetimes. Its purely theoretical research.

Think of it this way - look at the sheer effort and expense and energy required to merely even detect IF the things exist or not. Now imagine they did confirm their existence. Then what ? How could you possibly do anything practical with a Higgs boson. Supposing one could conceive of technology to somehow use the Higgs boson - how much time, expense and energy would you need to do that. Draw a parallel between say, the development of electronics. Based on the relatively easy to detect electron. Or the developing field of photonics. Decades and decades of work put into the tech we have today. IF you managed to discover a Higgs boson, the tech to use it (for what? exactly) would take decades to centuries to conceive, would consume half the planet to build, and likely require the power of a star to actually run.

How would discoveries at CERN lead to breakthroughs in medicine. What possible application could a higgs boson have in medicine ?

hooradiation wrote: »

Maybe we could have spent that money teaching people that false dichotomies are bullshit.

I think thats quite a facetious response to chuck stones post.

Lets put this another way. We need cures for cancer, we need childrens hospitals. We need more energy efficient technology. We need alternatives to gasoline. We don't need to discover the existence of the higgs boson. Its nice and all - but we don't need it. Pretty much all the problems we have these days that we need to solve are a) created by ourselves and b) solvable with existing technology and conceivable incremental improvements upon that technology.


That said the discoveries have been exciting to read about.

I do wish they would not use the term 'God particle'. That's just asking for the intelligent designers to come up with some bull****.

Chuck Stone

Good post. ^^ You said what I'm thinking better than I did.

seamus

opinion guy wrote: »

How would discoveries at CERN lead to breakthroughs in medicine. What possible application could a higgs boson have in medicine ?

None. The improvements would be indirect. It's not just about finding the particle, it's about the ramifications for our understanding of the universe and the simple forces which bind it. The more we know, the more we can control them, the more technological leaps we can make.

Paco Rodriguez

So religion is already claiming the rights to this particle is it?

ScumLord

opinion guy wrote: »

You analogy is flawed. Computers are a highly practical research project with obvious dividends to be paid (as well as not as obvious ones).

Which is the point, they where developed for one particular task and their worth became apparent in other fields. There are hundreds and thousands of inventions that have crossed into other fields, it happens constantly so it's fair to assume that anything discovered at cern could go on to affect peoples lifes in all sorts of unexpected ways.

foxyboxer

But the Standard Model is incomplete without it. And people like things complete. It would be like a crossword puzzle with 2 missing clues for example. :pac:

If it takes over £7 billion to complete the model then it would be worth the effort and expense. Alternatively, it will be worth the effort and expense to prove they the boson doesn't exist and the Standard Model will need to be reconsidered which is a big deal for Physics.

Take the Aviva or Dundrum Town Centre. Do we need that space for watching sport or shopping on land which could be used for a Childrens Hospital?

Of course not. There is other land. As there is money for cancer research. The problem is those that have it in adundance spend it on other things like wars etc.

opinion guy

ScumLord wrote: »

Which is the point, they where developed for one particular task and their worth became apparent in other fields. There are hundreds and thousands of inventions that have crossed into other fields, it happens constantly so it's fair to assume that anything discovered at cern could go on to affect peoples lifes in all sorts of unexpected ways.

But you are missing my point. Computers may have discovered lots of niche tasks by accident, but they were developed with at least one task in mind. The effort put in had a tangible realworld payback fromthe the very beginning (i.e. not getting killed by the nazi's).

Discovering the Higgs Boson has no conceivable realworld payback for decades to centuries - unless you happen to be a particle physicist or astrophysicist - in which case the realworld paybacks are fame, money and women. But there is no conceivable practical technological payback in the near to long term future. Other than, you know, its nice to know and all - which might be good for Trivial Pursuit players, but apart from that it isn't really all that important for the vast majority of us.

ejmaztec

Paco Rodriguez wrote: »

So religion is already claiming the rights to this particle is it?

God help us if they start fucking around with it.:eek:

120_Minutes

In before creationists calling it "just a theory"

Son Of A Vidic

Chuck Stone wrote: »

There would need to be an intricate and massive conspiracy to hide a cancer breakthrough.

I have worked on both sides of the coin - the clinical and business end of cancer treatment, it has nothing to do with conspiracies and more to do with business priorities and profit.

The pioneering research taking place at CERN is crucial for all of us. I wouldn't be to concerned about the money spent on such a project. Unlike the billions we have wasted on incompetent bankers.

ScumLord

opinion guy wrote: »

Discovering the Higgs Boson has no conceivable realworld payback for decades to centuries -

I don't know how you can be so sure, what if there is no higgs boson?

44leto

Its not about the expense of the collider. Its about what is needed to advance physics. Although the other sciences are important and do net benefits. Physics is the base of them all. Understand physics and you would be well on your way to understanding the intricacies of molecular biology, medicine and drugs treatments, chemistry, meteorology, its endless.

So understand physics and you understand the universe and to know a thing is a means to exploit a thing and hopilly for all mankind. In my opinion this is money well spent.