Maintenance and Inappropriate Comments by Judge

Was in Court today regarding maintenance for my child and to say it was a bizzare experience is an understatement.

Don't want to go into all the details but am currently unemployed and attending College through Springboard anywhere between 2-4 days per week. The course is excellent and is really giving me hope that I may find work when I complete it.

My son lives with his Mother full time and I get access to see him 2 days per week 10am-6pm. She refuses to allow him to stay over with me.

My ex partner is working in a well paid full time job and has her Mother living with her full time also, who doesn't work (also responsible for why we don't live together anymore). When we split up she refused to sign guardianship and I had to apply through the Court and do self representation. She was summoned, never showed up and it was granted. So next week I get a summons for maintenance.

I have never dodged any responsibility for my child, he is the most important thing in the world to me. Anything the Mother asked for I get and most of my family are in the States and send a lot of stuff over for him. I buy full on groceries twice per week for him, which includes all his nappies etc. To reduce my cost of living I moved back to my home place as my Mother spends a lot of time abroad and it is a little cheaper to travel to college.

Bottom line is I get euro 188 per week. I have to borrow a car to collect my son and it costs me euro 40 on fuel to just collect him and bring him back home. My travel to Dublin can be anything from euro 25 to 45 per week. Then there are costs of books,printing, etc. I applied for a medical card months ago and never received it and have been told to forget about it until at least next February. Want to know the costs of inhalers? When my son comes to spend the day with me, I have to ensure that the place is heated and he is well fed. I don't get fuel allowance or food allowance. I scrounge money from sisters to help make up the shortfalls to buy his other grocery shops for when he is not with me. I keep receipts for everything and my financial commitment is unquestionable.

I decided to turn up for court and represent myself again, as I believed that it would be straight forward and the Judge would see I was doing my absolute best for my child.

Wow was I wrong. Immediately the Judge took umbrage with me for turning up without a solicitor. I explained that I was unemployed and couldn't afford one. His dislike of me continued unabated. He refused to look at any of my expenses or money receipts I had for expenditure on my child. I tried in vain to then explain them to him and he just had no interest in listening to me. I told him about my travel expenses to collect my son, he said I was driving the wrong car and should buy a diesel one. I told him I can't afford a car and borrow the one I use. He said I should think about getting a motorbike. I said I don't want to buy a motorbike, as I don't know how to ride one or have the ability to afford one. He said I would then need to get a bicycle and I asked him did he think it was appropriate in this weather to bring a 2 year old child on an 80km round trip on a bicycle, especially in this weather. He said there were people doing it. I said in 6 months I had yet to pass someone on the motorway cycling with a child in tow.

This was the general tone from start to finish.

After trying to convey my situation to him, he proceeds to tell me if JP McManus was in front of him today all he could grant him to pay was a maximum of euro150. WTF!!???!!! He then grants an order of euro 100 against me, tells me that it costs euro 300 per week to maintain a child. At this stage all I could do was laugh, I thought it was a wind up. I asked him did he think this was just and how did he think I was going to A) be able to collect my son and take care of him on my access days and continue to go to College. I told him this was completely illogical and made no sense. I can't go to my sisters and say give me money to give my ex, they will refuse and it would be unfair to even consider asking them.

The contribution from my ex's solicitor during the whole case was 'We don't want Mr.XXXXX bringing groceries to the house'.

So I said to the Judge his recommendation basically amounted to me either packing in College or seeing my son. It would be just totally impossible for me to manage, let alone have any provision for myself.

The Court Clerk told me originally when he looked at my situation that i would have to pay probably euro 30 to 40 per week. I know guys working that are paying euro 60. I'm really stressed out by this whole process and have had chest pains all evening. I want to work so my son wants for nothing but now I'm faced with the prospect of being trapped on the dole or leaving the country. The latter prospect would break my heart and I wouldn't be able to deal with being away from my son. I don't even think my ex expected this and has probably gone home thinking she has won the Court lottery. If she looked at the bigger picture she would see the way this is headed, that no matter what I end up paying is all going to end up in some solicitor's pocket. Surely it is in her interest that I finish College and get into work asap.

I will obviously appeal this and get it extended so that legal aid can hopefully fight my case, for the record, I'm on a waiting list for Legal Aid since June and have been told it will be late January before I will be seen.

Also can I request a different Judge to hear my appeal?

Forgive all typing mistakes. I'm stressed.

Moonbeam

Wow that sounds harsh.
Did she have costs saying it costs 300 euro a week to maintain the child?
I have 2 kids and they want for nothing and they do not cost me near 300 euro a week.
Talk to your local td,talk to free legal aid,talk to anyone that can help.
I am not sure what happened but it sounds crazy.

confused08

feel so sorry for you but from what i know of the court system , once you lodge an appeal the order granted by the judge is frozen until your appeal is heard , depending on your area it could take 6 months for an appeal to be heard , also different judges sit on the circuit court than the district court so it will be a different judge and you will get a full hearing and more time to plead your case

gcgirl

Free legal aid yourself and go to the HSE over your medical card their fooking idiots when it comes to stuff like that, monkeys are more capable of doing a decent job, but the max you should pay is €25 the judge sounds like a knob have every bill for your out goings and get back in ASAP

aujopimur

Why did you not apply for free legal aid as you are entitled to do, I strongly advise that you do so, as you can see representing yourself is not a good idea

CrazyRabbit

Get free legal aid. The judge may think you were taking the piss by not having legal representation and that influenced his decision. Not a good idea to piss off a judge.

Orion

aujopimur wrote: »

Why did you not apply for free legal aid as you are entitled to do, I strongly advise that you do so, as you can see representing yourself is not a good idea

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Get free legal aid. The judge may think you were taking the piss by not having legal representation and that influenced his decision. Not a good idea to piss off a judge.

Ummm....

Davidian_ie wrote: »

for the record, I'm on a waiting list for Legal Aid since June and have been told it will be late January before I will be seen

So the legal advice would be to get legal advice. But he's on a waiting list to get that legal advice and the judge was pissed because he had no legal advisor to give him the legal advice that everyone is advising he needs. I think my brain just exploded.

IOW people - let's not jump to conclusions. Davidian_ie is on a waiting list. He has applied. Telling him he needs legal advice is not helping - it's already apparent and pending.

Davidian_ie

Davidian_ie wrote: »

I'm on a waiting list for Legal Aid since June and have been told it will be late January before I will be seen.

Understand that I'm going to need Legal Aid before I enter the court room again because Judge has no interest in engaging with me. Got the impression this was about putting me in my place and that I should not be upsetting the Legal gravy train. A few months prior to the Guardianship case a Guard advised me to call a certain solicitor that deals with Legal Aid cases and who would 99% be dealing with mine, to call them and ask if they could help me at the time because there was a possibility of a flight risk before the guardianship case. I called the solicitor in question and she told me that yes I would be entitled to legal Aid but she wanted e750 to take the case on at that time. I asked her would she be claiming money through the Legal Aid also and she replied 'Yes'. I just hung up the phone. So you can see why I'm a little sceptical of the whole free legal aid process as well. I am now from a position of 256 on the waiting list, up to 26th but will be end of January.

Moonbeam

Is it possible that you have confused the weekly amount with monthly?
unless you have huge savings it makes no sense otherwise?

confused08

As far as i know you cant get free legal aid if you're making the appeal , really hope i'm wrong but you should check it out . i know this is prob a really bad idea but if i was in your position i would carry on as before and not pay maintainance , you would then be brought back to the district court , you can get a letter from the legal aid board stating that your on a waiting list and the court would have to adjourn the case . Been through the court system for over a year and it totally sucks

Wantobe

Family law hearings are held 'in camera' and discussing them without the consent of all parties can be a contempt of court...so be very careful OP, you have disclosed quite a lot of information which could identify the parties.

And BTW what you've said about the solicitor you contacted is very confusing. Did you contact a private solicitor or the legal aid board?

Fittle

As another poster said - is it possible that you have confused the 100e being a monthly payment?

I was in court with my sons father recently and was awarded 75e per week from a man who has a very well paid job. I can't imagine a judge would award 100pw from somone on the dole - it's very confusing

Thanks for all the replies and it is very definitely e100 per week and that is why I asked for advice here. I had a panic attack after I left the courthouse. First time in my life I have experienced anything like that. All I could see was all my effort so far this year in College being wiped out with the stroke of a judge's pen. It is obviously in my son's best interest if I am back in work and thought it really unfair that the Judge completely disregarded my costs for travelling to Dublin and having to pay all costs associated with my education. I was not eligible for BTEA. I'm not looking to shirk my responsibilities in anyway or weasel out of payments. I just want what is fair and my child at this stage definitely wants for nothing.


The bottom line is I will appeal the decision and continue to support my son with all his necessities, which will also enable me to receive help from family in doing so. Will wait then and see how Legal Aid advise me to proceed.

Regarding the contact with the solicitor. I was told off the record by a member of the Garda to contact the solicitor as she would with 99% probability be dealing with me on free legal aid. They said to contact her and explain my situation and that she MIGHT make an exception and deal with my case, as there was a strong possibility of a flight risk. The Solicitor said she would deal with it but would want e750 from me. I asked would she still be claiming payment through the Legal Aid services for this and she said yes. As previously stated, I hung up the phone.

Cavehill Red

Start here: http://www.flac.ie/

planetX

I was on the other side, but had an equally bizarre court appearance. My ex represented himself and was given all the time. I sympathise entirely with anyone who has to face a judge as rude and petty as I now know are out there.
Having said that... I would be very annoyed to get groceries instead of cash maintenance, there's a nasty side to that.

planetX

planetX wrote: »

I was on the other side, but had an equally bizarre court appearance. My ex represented himself and was given all the time. I sympathise entirely with anyone who has to face a judge as rude and petty as I now know are out there.
Having said that... I would be very annoyed to get groceries instead of cash maintenance, there's a nasty side to that.

I know exactly where you are coming from regarding the groceries but this goes beyond that and there are trust issues also. If I told you that I regularly at the end of the month get calls for a loan to buy food, would that not ring alarm bells as to what is going on with her salary? Remember I'm on social and going to college and she is calling me for loans. I end up doing shops for her and buying her groceries to get to her pay packet. My spend on my son is everything from groceries, toys, toiletries, clothes to medicines. Not counting the regular parcels that arrive from the States for him. There is no mechanism in place to ensure I know that my money would be spent directly on my child. At least this way I can sleep easy knowing my child has nourishment.

qwertytlk

Wow thats shocking. I dont even know what to say as iv never been in the situation. So just wanted to say im so sorry for you. And 300 to maintain a child? Thats totally ridiculous and absurd. I have a 6 month old and id say he costs me between 30-50 per week.
As for the inhaler, they are between 8 and 10 euro. This is just buying them from chemist with no prescriptions left, which is called an emergency prescription (with prescription on med card it costs 50 cent per item!)

go to hse, explain your situation. A few years back i was in a similar situation, bar the court business, and was waiting for med card for months, which was leaving me broke having to pay 100 per month for doc and prescription so went into hse and they gave me the number for the place they process the med card applications. Got talking to a woman who was kind enough to give me the medical card number which was enough for me to see doc for free and get Prescriptions. So try that. F that fails i think you can get a temporary card or an emergency one but i think there are certain criteria attached to this option. Hope this helps. If your stuck with no inhaler and feeling wheezy go into the bathroom with window/door closed, but shower on full heat and sit there for a while breathing in the steam. Really helps open up the chest. Bowl of boiling water with towel over your head does the same job, just not as good. Best of luck with it all. Hope you can resolve the maintenance/access issues soon.

groovyg

Davidian_ie wrote: »

I told him about my travel expenses to collect my son, he said I was driving the wrong car and should buy a diesel one. I told him I can't afford a car and borrow the one I use.
He said I should think about getting a motorbike. I said I don't want to buy a motorbike, as I don't know how to ride one or have the ability to afford one.
He said I would then need to get a bicycle and I asked him did he think it was appropriate in this weather to bring a 2 year old child on an 80km round trip on a bicycle, especially in this weather. He said there were people doing it.

Op I'm wondering did he spend the morning in the pub ? he suggests you buying a diesel car when you say you can't afford that, he suggests a motorbike and then getting a bicycle. Dunno of many people cycling 80km with a kid on the back ..what an idiot. I really hope your situation gets sorted.

cynder

Our inhalers cost between €50 and €60 per inhaler we have 2 on flixotide and one on seretide and 3 on Ventolin. Wish our inhalers only cost €8.00, then €10.00 for each prescription payable to the gp.


If it were me in that position i would love to go to the papers showing them my income of €188 and maintenance order or €100 per week.

cynder

groovyg wrote: »

Op I'm wondering did he spend the morning in the pub ? he suggests you buying a diesel car when you say you can't afford that, he suggests a motorbike and then getting a bicycle. Dunno of many people cycling 80km with a kid on the back ..what an idiot. I really hope your situation gets sorted.

I dont even think kids are allowed on the back of motorcycles!

Orion

Ludicrously there is no age limit in Ireland.

http://news.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/dx/young-motorcycle-pillion-riders-and-the-european-laws.htm

Fittle

I'm also surprised that the judge seemed annoyed that you didn't have a solicitor. In my own experience (and I'll reiterate, this is my personal experience of being in a district court for maintenance, 6 times in 9 years), I only had a solicitor once, as did my childs dad. Twice when we didn't have a solicitor, the judge commended us both for representing ourselves.

As someone else said, contact FLAC - they will provide you with free legal advice until you get your legal aid sorted.

I certainly wouldn't be paying 100e per week in the interim however - I would stop buying groceries, and provide your child with the most you can afford until you get back to court and in front of a more sensible judge.

Thanks for all the replies yet again and they really helped me to get a perspective of what just happened to me. It was like I had been in a car crash. Was probably in a state of shock when I originally posted. I'm not trying to make myself out as some martyr for the cause. I'm just a Dad who loves his son to bits and have got sucker punched by the whole legal system in this country. Looking at it now, it's just a game to solicitor's etc. involved but this is real life and where they make money decisions, I make ones that are in the best interest of my child. If the e100 was taken from me, it would completely cut me out of my child's life. I get no input in any decisions as it is and am never given information as to what he does on days he is not with me. I know the grocery thing would annoy a lot of women but it gives me a) Peace of mind that my son has most of his necessities provided every week and b) He sees me buying stuff for him. I know that that may sound ridiculous but imagine every time my child visits and I haven't even the price of an apple, a bag of Tayto or a juice. What kind of impression does my kid form of me then?

Anyway, I asked his mother to please consider a mediator and I would be very favourable to her terms. She said 'yes' but I would have to give her the e100 per week. I tried to explain that this was not possible and that obviously I would be lodging an appeal. I also stated that if we keep going in and out of court, all the money will just end up in solicitor's pockets. Not interested. I reminded her of the times I bailed her out over the last few months but she brushed that aside. I told her that once this goes to appeal and the outcome is not what she wants, it will probably see a total breakidown of any working relationship between us. I asked her, is this the environment and atmosphere she wanted to raise our son up in. Again not interested. I also explained my exams are in March and I am optimistic that I will be in employment soon after them and that is obviously in her interest as well as our child's that I am working. Not interested, as that was my problem.

Bottom line is I now have to go out and play a game. My policy of being honest and trying my best has no place in this system. I was advised months ago by a female friend who works in Citizen Information to go straight into 'Bastard Mode' regarding my situation, to stop buying anything for my son and offer no assistance whatsoever. I couldn't get my head around what she was trying to advise me to do or as to what such action would achieve. I understand perfectly now but it was just not in my nature to do so. Looks like I am backed into a corner now and my options are forced on me. Sadly I will probably become very cynical when this whole process ends and hate to think of developing a massive chip on my shoulder against the world at the end of this.

Am still really annoyed that the Judge made those ridiculous comments and have enquired about making a complaint against him for making wreck less statements. Brick wall. Just have to hope he is not sitting on the appeal. It might be a joke to him but this is real life and real people that he is affecting.

Fittle I'm also surprised that the judge seemed annoyed that you didn't have a solicitor. In my own experience (and I'll reiterate, this is my personal experience of being in a district court for maintenance, 6 times in 9 years), I only had a solicitor once, as did my childs dad. Twice when we didn't have a solicitor, the judge commended us both for representing ourselves.

This boiled down to a bad start. He kept dwelling on the fact that I was solicitorless, I answered him with straight forward replies to this at the start and then told him that it was my right to represent myself in any case. The umbrage began here. He kept on about it and my final say on it was, that I would not reply to his statements about this anymore because he would probably not appreciate my honest opinion on the matter. This seemed to rile him even more. I know some people are good at pandering and nodding but I just can't do bull****. That is why I will most definitely have someone representing me on my next visit.

PS Inhalers are stupidly expensive and my doctor has me on what he calls the cheap ones and they cost me e60 for two of them.

I also went to HSE yesterday and the lady there said I must have got the amount mixed up. I told her I was 1000% sure that was the figure because I had just picked up the Appeal form and the Court Clerk who quipped that my e100 order starts on Friday. She told me that I would definitely have strong grounds to appeal it.

cynder

Good luck with it davidian. Hope it works out in the end. Try fight it any which way you can.

My boys were on cheap inhalers at first and they didnt help we had to keep upgrading till we found something that did. Hope you get the medical card ASAP...

cynder

Orion wrote: »

Ludicrously there is no age limit in Ireland.

http://news.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/dx/young-motorcycle-pillion-riders-and-the-european-laws.htm

:eek: shocked!

planetX

Davidian_ie wrote: »

I know exactly where you are coming from regarding the groceries but this goes beyond that and there are trust issues also. If I told you that I regularly at the end of the month get calls for a loan to buy food, would that not ring alarm bells as to what is going on with her salary? Remember I'm on social and going to college and she is calling me for loans. I end up doing shops for her and buying her groceries to get to her pay packet. My spend on my son is everything from groceries, toys, toiletries, clothes to medicines. Not counting the regular parcels that arrive from the States for him. There is no mechanism in place to ensure I know that my money would be spent directly on my child. At least this way I can sleep easy knowing my child has nourishment.

Now this sounds even more like control. You have no right to choose her groceries in lieu of maintenance. If you are spending on groceries, toys, toiletries, clothes and medicine, that's a lot of money that you could be paying. Bags of groceries are not the same as a reliable amount that can be budgeted into paying important bills. If as you claim she is neglecting the child, gather your evidence and bring it to court. Maintenance is not 'to be spent directly on the child' - it's to maintain the child... housing, heating, electricity, these things are more important than toys and clothes.
If she is using emotional blackmail to get money from you at the end of the month that is despicable, and you shouldn't fall for it. Your son is not going to go hungry - unless she's a complete sociopath.

Whynotme

Did you get your ex's affidavit of means? If so go through it with a fine tooth comb. Maintenance is based on the child costs. As your ex works I imagine she has childcare costs which can cost €800+ per month. Check her costs and ensure that she has halved them, her mother is responsible for her half. Any unreasonable costs, ask for proof.

On an aside, unfortunately you got a bad judge on a bad day and made it worse for yourself by standing up for yourself. Sometimes it pays to let things roll over you. Hard but true.

I hope you have filed your appeal, you only have a very short period of time to appeal it.

Fittle

I know that in the early days of my son being abandoned by his dad, I was very negative towards him and became conscious that those who knew me only ever heard my side of the story (none of it lies, but still, his dad obviously has his own 'story' that helps him cope with getting on with his life while ignoring his son), and we are obviously only hearing your side of the story here OP - I'm not saying it's not true, but I think it's important to at least acknowledge that your childs mother has her reasons for not wanting groceries sent to the house for your child (for example).

Davidian_ie wrote: »

The bottom line is I will appeal the decision and continue to support my son with all his necessities,

You have already been asked by the solicitor, not to provide 'necessities' for your son - so you need to stop choosing what 'groceries' you send to him. There are many costs associated with feeding and clothing and caring for a child - your childs mother has to pay heating and household bills etc, to keep a roof over his head - she's working, so has childcare costs. The money you give her will contribute to the upkeep of your son - as someone else says, she is feeding and clothing him - so you need to pay cash, and not decide what he eats.

Davidian_ie wrote: »

I know the grocery thing would annoy a lot of women but it gives me a) Peace of mind that my son has most of his necessities provided every week and b) He sees me buying stuff for him. I know that that may sound ridiculous but imagine every time my child visits and I haven't even the price of an apple, a bag of Tayto or a juice. What kind of impression does my kid form of me then?

This paragraph I just do not understand. Firstly, why would the grocery thing bother us 'women' particularly And you have a two year old - how on earth can he 'see' you buying stuff for him, or be 'impressed' upon because you don't have Tayto or juice Kids need love, hugs and attention at that age (and at all ages!) and two year olds don't have the capacity to judge their parents for not having money for tayto.

planetX wrote: »

If she is using emotional blackmail to get money from you at the end of the month that is despicable, and you shouldn't fall for it. Your son is not going to go hungry - unless she's a complete sociopath.

The above, I agree with. And I think she is using emotional blackmail from what you have posted. But how you deal with that is anybodys guess.


'My son lives with his Mother full time and I get access to see him 2 days per week 10am-6pm. She refuses to allow him to stay over with me.'

I meant to pick up on this earlier. Is there a relevant reason she won't let him stay with you overnight? At 2, he is obviously not in school and as he lives so far away from you, have you offered to take on some of the childcare - one overnight a week would make a huge impact on your life with him (and on hers). I think I read before that you have court ordered access - if you don't, would you consider going back to court for overnight access? As you are only in college 2/4 days per week, could you not make a case for having him overnight???

You seem like a good dad OP, and although I am in the opposite scenario to you, I am just playing devils advocate by saying that she obviously has her side of the story too - I hope you understand that, and don't think I'm trying to get at you - this whole shared parenting/parenting alone situation is such a massive challenge to those of us who have been through it and I really hope you can work things out here.

daltonmd

Davidian_ie wrote: »

Was in Court today regarding maintenance for my child and to say it was a bizzare experience is an understatement.

I'm going to go against the grain on this one. There was another recent discussion regarding this issue where I annoyed some people. Trust me that is not my purpose and I am not a bitter ex, as I have been accused of being in the past.

As well as having personal experience of this issue I have, in the course of my work, sat in on these cases and can tell you that if you seen the amount of men (and a small number of women in more recent times) stand up and try to explain away their reasons for failing to pay child support you would understand why the judge behaved the way he did.

Please remember that this is nothing personal, I don't know you, this is not about how you are as a father, I am sure you love your child and do the best but this is from the Judges point of view and his allegiance and his legal obligation is first, fore-mostly and only to your child.

The most common mistakes that people make with regards to this issue is not seeking advice from the various agencies posted here.
The next most common is separating from the partner and not paying any maintenance whatsoever. This is like a red flag to a bull and judges are bone weary of this failure by parents at this stage.
The next mistake is deciding what to buy and trying to claim that it is maintenance or should be classed as maintenance.
Next is dragging family members into it and offering those gifts as part of the deal or as part of your contribution to the child's basic needs.
Next is claiming that the ex "has a good job and earns lots of money" - unless your ex is seeking maintenance from you for her then her income has nothing to do with your financial obligation to your child.
By virtue of the fact that she is providing a roof over the child's head and paying all the costs associated with all that this entails, then she is supporting her child financially, if you were not paying child support then you were not supporting your son.

While I agree that 100 per week is perhaps a little excessive - the Judges main aim is to look after the welfare of the child - when he said that if JP McManus stood in front of him that the max he could order him to pay was 150 Euro this was telling you clearly that if you better yourself and find a well paying job that you would not be paying based on your earnings. You are paying based on what your child needs.

In trying to put your expenses to the judge what you are really saying, to him anyway is - "I need to look after my needs first before my son" - to a judge that is simply not acceptable.

In explaining your housing situation to him this also said " I need to look after my needs first before I look after my son" another no-no I'm afraid.

What a judge would fully expect you to do is:

A)Appeal.

B} Claim your entitlements, such as rent allowance and a payment of 29.80 on top of your dole for your dependent child.
C) Move closer to your child.
D) Get some kind of part time job.

As I said I am sorry if this seems a bit harsh, I am sorry if this seems unfair but the judges in these cases see so many children and their parents struggling to bring up children alone, without any help from their absent parents. They have heard every excuse but they cannot deviate from their responsibility to the child.

Also, if a judge heard from a father that the mother of the child, earning lots of money was asking that father for a loan each month to buy food (not saying that you said this) then the alarm bells going off in his head would be that this mother was struggling because she wasn't receiving adequate regular maintenance....

In reference to those who think that it doesn't cost 300 per week to raise a child.
The parent living with the child has to pay:
Rent/mortgage, ESB, Gas - those 3 things alone would safely add up to 300 per week.

Child maintenance is a payment from one parent to another to help with the everyday costs of raising children.
This is a roof over their heads and a standard of living that is equivalent or close to what that child could have expected if the parents were still together.
That they are apart should not (in reality) impose a detrimental lifestyle to any child.

Moonbeam

both parents should pay half so in that case it should cost 600 euro a week to raise a child and having 2 kids I can tell you it doesn't,many families life on less and this is supposed to be to maintain one child.

Unless he has special needs or the op is not telling us the full story then the judge is trying to use him as an example by completely taking the piss.

Op do you have an access agreement? I would be after one with over nights if I was you and there is no good reason that he can't stay over.

lrushe

Op my partner was in court a couple of days ago on a divorce related issue. He too didn't have a solicitor as his divorce is straightforward (no kids, property, both consent etc.) he got an officer of the court to submit his paperwork for a fraction of the price. Long story short the judge adjurned his case until he got a trival piece of paperwork. The guy that prepared my OH's paperwork said in 20 years he's never need said paperwork and that judges were coming down on people representing themselves in court as solicitors were complaining that they were losing money.
While I don't know if this is the reason your judge acted the way he did he sounds just as arogant and petty as the judge we saw the other day. I hope you get things sorted soon!

Fittle

Moonbeam wrote: »

both parents should pay half so in that case it should cost 600 euro a week to raise a child and having 2 kids I can tell you it doesn't,many families life on less and this is supposed to be to maintain one child.

Nobody is trying to say that it costs 600euro a week to raise a child - I'm not sure where you got that from.

But in all maintenance orders, the judge considers a PORTION of all costs when assessing maintenance - and that includes mortgage/rent payments (to keep a roof over the childs head), lighting, heating, telephone and so on. You are asked to complete a very detailed breakdown of your weekly outgoings (down to your car tax) and the judge considers all of these costs when assessing maintenance and if he/she considers that the parent who is not raising the child on a full-time basis can afford X amount (X being a portion of the full costs of raising the child), they will award that to the child (maintenance is awarded for the child, not the parent who is raising them).

Wow, thanks again for all those who took the time out to post these replies. I am very open to criticism and appreciate it. I know I have made a lot of mistakes here but I also know the system is very unfair to the good guys. I can see how some guys would just give up on the whole process out of sheer frustration. The system actually makes it very easy for a guy to walk away and wash his hands of any responsibility if he wants to.

I realise the grocery thing may have be a mistake but my reasons were not to be deceitful, they were well intentioned. I didn't go into the court room and try to weasel out of making a maintenance. My receipts would have shown a huge financial commitment in relation to my means but Judge had no interest in analysing anything I brought to his table. Regarding clothes, I provide the majority of them. I also bring him swimming, to play barns, trips to the seaside, parks etc. I'm lucky that I don't bother with booze or smoke and gladly spend the few spare euros on activities with my son. My 'needs' have never entered into it, my son is first and college second. My vice/treat is to buy a coffee every other day. As for my own clothing, haven't bought clothes in years myself. I'm still not buying the e300 per week to keep a child. Think you could argue about this all day long but as someone else pointed out, showing them love is what really counts.

I moved back to my home place to reduce my costs. It's closer to college and hopefully after exams in March I can get work in the area my son is living. My course is specifically targeted at helping me to get a job in a multi national located there.

Regarding over nights , I have begged to come some agreement on this because for a start it would save me e20 on travel cots but she is adamant that he can't stay. I have held off on the custody case because I feel I am a weak position not working. My priority is to get my exams, get employment and take a case for shared custody and I won't be representing myself. She claims that he is in a creche on Tuesday and Thursday but I know this is not true. She refuses to disclose the name of the creche. I know specifically this is not true and don't want to go into a breakdown of the specifics. Her mother sits at home all week, she never leaves the house.

On an aside, unfortunately you got a bad judge on a bad day and made it worse for yourself by standing up for yourself. Sometimes it pays to let things roll over you. Hard but true.

I have been advised that this is an essential course of action. 'Yes sir, three bags full Sir', from now on.

Sadly the whole thing now turns into emotional warfare and mind games. Hate having to go down this route now but that is the end of any working relationship with the mother of my child. She has made it clear that she wants to profit out of the situation and also sees it as an opportunity to push me further away from my son.

Anyway bed now, 05.30 rise for college. Thanks again for all the different views, angles, outlooks. All replies greatly appreciated.

daltonmd

Davidian_ie wrote: »

Wow, thanks again for all those who took the time out to post these replies. I am very open to criticism and appreciate it. I know I have made a lot of mistakes here but I also know the system is very unfair to the good guys. I can see how some guys would just give up on the whole process out of sheer frustration. The system actually makes it very easy for a guy to walk away and wash his hands of any responsibility if he wants to.

I realise the grocery thing may have be a mistake but my reasons were not to be deceitful, they were well intentioned. I didn't go into the court room and try to weasel out of making a maintenance. My receipts would have shown a huge financial commitment in relation to my means but Judge had no interest in analysing anything I brought to his table. Regarding clothes, I provide the majority of them. I also bring him swimming, to play barns, trips to the seaside, parks etc. I'm lucky that I don't bother with booze or smoke and gladly spend the few spare euros on activities with my son. My 'needs' have never entered into it, my son is first and college second. My vice/treat is to buy a coffee every other day. As for my own clothing, haven't bought clothes in years myself. I'm still not buying the e300 per week to keep a child. Think you could argue about this all day long but as someone else pointed out, showing them love is what really counts.

I moved back to my home place to reduce my costs. It's closer to college and hopefully after exams in March I can get work in the area my son is living. My course is specifically targeted at helping me to get a job in a multi national located there.

Regarding over nights , I have begged to come some agreement on this because for a start it would save me e20 on travel cots but she is adamant that he can't stay. I have held off on the custody case because I feel I am a weak position not working. My priority is to get my exams, get employment and take a case for shared custody and I won't be representing myself. She claims that he is in a creche on Tuesday and Thursday but I know this is not true. She refuses to disclose the name of the creche. I know specifically this is not true and don't want to go into a breakdown of the specifics. Her mother sits at home all week, she never leaves the house.



I have been advised that this is an essential course of action. 'Yes sir, three bags full Sir', from now on.

Sadly the whole thing now turns into emotional warfare and mind games. Hate having to go down this route now but that is the end of any working relationship with the mother of my child. She has made it clear that she wants to profit out of the situation and also sees it as an opportunity to push me further away from my son.

Anyway bed now, 05.30 rise for college. Thanks again for all the different views, angles, outlooks. All replies greatly appreciated.

You know David, there are several issues going on here besides the maintenance. With regards to access, my advice would be to contact this service http://www.familymediation.ie/custody-guardianship-access/custody-guardinaship-and-access/ for information. Taking these steps will show you in a favourable light with the judge.

In regards to the 300 per week costs to raise a child - maintenance is not a direct payment to the child. If your ex pays 1000pm in rent/mortgage, 300 for bills and even 200 for food then that amounts to 1500 per month or 400 per week. You are asked to pay 100 towards those costs, so I'm struggling a little when you still can't see that.
In regards to her childcare arrangements, if your ex had your son in a creche full time for 250 per week, you would not be asked or expected to pay half of that so the fact that her mother very kindly takes care of your child - for no payment - is a wonderful gesture from that woman. There is nothing better, in my opinion, than having a loving grandmother taking care of her grandson.

If her mother were to get ill or god forbid die, then what? Would you pay half the creche fees on top of your maintenance?

So this issue is best left alone when in a courtroom because this is what a judge will tell you.

You have 14 days to appeal so I would do that, in the meantime I would lodge some amount of money to the ex, this will show intent and again a judge will see this in a favourable light. But pay nothing and it won't look good.

Last piece of advice - steer clear of mentioning anything to do with buying shopping, creche issues, ex's pay, receipts for what you spend on your son and basically anything to do with your ex on any kind of a personal level.

I know that there are issues between you and your ex, but you need to remove yourself from these petty sqaubbles with her. Stop playing her games and use your energy to gain proper access and a more reasonable maintenance amount. You will get nowhere playing these games with her.

Don't forget to check with the social welfare for the child dependant, in some cases this is awarded to a parent who is not living with the child but substantially maintaining them, take the court order to your local office as proof, if you pay the 100 in the meantime that would be better. 70 per week is a lot more reasonable than 100pw I think you'll agree.



Good luck.

LegacyUser

Sadly the whole thing now turns into emotional warfare and mind games. Hate having to go down this route now but that is the end of any working relationship with the mother of my child. She has made it clear that she wants to profit out of the situation and also sees it as an opportunity to push me further away from my son.


As a daughter of separated parents please don't!!! I don't think either of my parents were in a right frame of mind during or after the separation, so try make allowances for this!

My father in particular got a chip on his shoulder after it all, does no body any favours!!

I know its so hard, but if you can get on with your ex during this the rest will be so much easier! Just let some things go (i really do know this is not easy).

I can see both sides of my parents separation, they don't see what they did 'wrong' as easy. Dad thought mum wanted to make a profit too, but she didn't, she was just scared of the future (imo) and needed to be able to protect herself and me.

Long story short, they don't talk now and it is terrible!!! Please please please don't make the same mistake but do make sure you stand up for yourself!

lucernarian

daltonmd wrote: »

While I agree that 100 per week is perhaps a little excessive

This is where I stopped taking that post seriously. As the poster after you mentioned, unless there is some kind of special care needed or some other circumstance not yet outlined, €100 p/w is a ludicrous and absurd level of maintenance to award against a parent whose income is not even twice that. "Perhaps a little excessive"?!

And if one parent is awarded custody, what is to say that they must live in a place that costs €1000 euro to rent/mortgage? What happens if a parent decides to go to a particular childcare facility that costs much more than a nearby one? Is one parent forced to pay extra to contribute towards an excessively expensive creche?

daltonmd

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

This is where I stopped taking that post seriously. As the poster after you mentioned, unless there is some kind of special care needed or some other circumstance not yet outlined, €100 p/w is a ludicrous and absurd level of maintenance to award against a parent whose income is not even twice that. "Perhaps a little excessive"?!

And if one parent is awarded custody, what is to say that they must live in a place that costs €1000 euro to rent/mortgage? What happens if a parent decides to go to a particular childcare facility that costs much more than a nearby one? Is one parent forced to pay extra to contribute towards an excessively expensive creche?

As I have tried to explain, again and again, it is not the needs or the income of the parent that is the most important, it is the needs of the child and if you don't get that then I don't know how else to explain it to you. But I will try - here's a tip, keep reading....


The income of the parents is really not the issue - it is the ongoing daily needs of the child/ren. A fact that a lot of people simply cannot "get". Just because the parents split up, this does not mean that the child should have a lower expectation of a decent standard of life then what they could have expected if the parents stayed together. That is what the Judge looks at.

You are making the mistake of many, you are looking at the OP (for example) and looking at his "needs" over that of the child/ren.


You ask here:
"And if one parent is awarded custody, what is to say that they must live in a place that costs €1000 euro to rent/mortgage?"


"What happens if a parent decides to go to a particular childcare facility that costs much more than a nearby one? Is one parent forced to pay extra to contribute towards an excessively expensive creche"

Let's say, for example that the rent/mortgage is 600 per month and the Creche is 100 per week (I know, cheap Creche eh??) that's 1000 Euro per month. Now, the 400 euro is not half of these costs, it is not intended to be.

Rent/mortgage and childcare costs are within the maintenance amount, along with utility bills, food, clothes, travel, after-school curricula and so on . The judge does not say "well the mother pays x amount in A,B and C, so she is awarded y amount" that is not how it goes.

It is assumed that because the mother (in this case) has custody that she is looking after the housing needs and the childcare needs of the child as well as paying all the relevant bills/costs associated with providing a home for the child, that she is "providing" for that child - she is contributing. The Op (in this case) is contributing 400 euro per month..

If you earn 5k 0r 50k - the Judge can not award more than 150 Euro child maintenance per week.

If you were to add up what the custodial parent is paying towards the upbringing of the child/ren then you would see that if they were to contribute 100 euro then this simply would not come close to the actual amount.

I hope I have made it a bit clearer...

Fittle

daltonmd wrote: »

If you earn 5k 0r 50k - the Judge can not award more than 150 Euro child maintenance per week.

This has been said before here, and is very misleading. A Judge in a District court can award a maximum of 150e per week per child. In a Circuit Court, there is NO maximum, so a judge can award whatever they like if a judgement is made in a Circuit Court.

Kildrought

Just to add to the mix, it's worth pointing out that the weekly rate paid to foster parents per child is €346. It would be safe to say that this is the HSE's best estimate of average costs.

Fittle

Kildrought wrote: »

Just to add to the mix, it's worth pointing out that the weekly rate paid to foster parents per child is €346. It would be safe to say that this is the HSE's best estimate of average costs.

Funny you say that Kildrought - I've seen the ads lately for fostering and it's something I've often thought about, so looked a bit further into it and also thought of the comparison between what the HSE deems a suitable amount to raise a child, and what the courts/State deem is a suitable amount. It's an interesting debate alright.

daltonmd

Fittle wrote: »

This has been said before here, and is very misleading. A Judge in a District court can award a maximum of 150e per week per child. In a Circuit Court, there is NO maximum, so a judge can award whatever they like if a judgement is made in a Circuit Court.

And as I have pointed out before - when and if a case goes to the circuit court it is NOT to do with the single issue of Child maintenance. Please see below.



"6. Circuit Court

Proceedings are held in the Circuit Court where all issues of joint assets (everything the parties own), matters concerning children, and matters concerning the finality of relationships are decided upon.

Proceedings which involve joint assets of a combined value exceeding a certain, higher threshold are heard in the High Court. The services of a solicitor and barrister are required for representation in the Circuit Court.

A request should be made for a transcript of court proceedings. This is advisable to enable the parties to understand and rely on what was said and done during the hearing. If an appeal is lodged in the High Court, the transcript constitutes a case history which saves time and expense."

Orion

Enough about what/who/where and how much the courts can decree. The question is about the comments the judge made and how the OP should proceed. Let's get back on topic please.

Just an update on the situation. Firstly, got the appeal lodged but Court Clerk kept telling me that my Maintenance Order started the week of the case. I asked him for a copy of it and he said he had not processed the paperwork. Still have received nothing in the post.

Spoke with the mother of my child over Xmas and she agreed that the award made by the Judge was not feasible under my current situation and we are now close to agreeing a deal amongst ourselves (Just 10 euro apart). She also said she was shocked at the behaviour of the Judge and me on the day of the court. She said the whole thing descended into a farce as the two of us went at it hammer and tongs arguing.

Anyway, I pleaded with her to look at it logically and that if we kept going into Court, her Legal team would end up walking away with whatever award would be finally agreed for the next few years, i.e the equivalent of approx 2 years maintenance would be needed for her to break even with her Legal costs ( taking into account here the appeal, another case when i return to work, possibly another appeal and a Custody case, etc.). So far she seems agreeable to sort something logical out this week, so fingers crossed. I begged her originally to go through Mediation and asked her to pick one that she liked but that request fell on deaf ears. Now after all this trauma we end up sorting it out ourself and she is left with a 600 euro bill from her solicitor. So, I guess no matter how much people hate one another they should try and get someone to mediate or come to a compromise themselves. I know this can be very difficult to do in certain cases.

I know through doing Employment Law lectures this year that a new Act comes into play this year, where Judges will be telling parties to get involved in Mediation first before they come before a Judge. Not sure if this will be applicable in Family Law cases but it would have to be a welcome development. Anything that puts a dent in this entitlement culture that exists in the legal profession has to be a good thing in my eyes. They have little or no morals preying on the vulnerable souls that are caught up in a very complex system. In my experience so far, all I can see is a system that is one big gravy train to enrich the legal classes, with little regard for the victims.

bubs!!

bubs!! wrote: »

Sadly the whole thing now turns into emotional warfare and mind games. Hate having to go down this route now but that is the end of any working relationship with the mother of my child. She has made it clear that she wants to profit out of the situation and also sees it as an opportunity to push me further away from my son.


As a daughter of separated parents please don't!!! I don't think either of my parents were in a right frame of mind during or after the separation, so try make allowances for this!

My father in particular got a chip on his shoulder after it all, does no body any favours!!

I know its so hard, but if you can get on with your ex during this the rest will be so much easier! Just let some things go (i really do know this is not easy).

I can see both sides of my parents separation, they don't see what they did 'wrong' as easy. Dad thought mum wanted to make a profit too, but she didn't, she was just scared of the future (imo) and needed to be able to protect herself and me.

Long story short, they don't talk now and it is terrible!!! Please please please don't make the same mistake but do make sure you stand up for yourself!

I was deeply moved by this post and if you would like to Direct Message me with an email address I would like to reply to your post. Thanks for your original post.

lucernarian

@daltonmd

Having experienced the rigmarole of living between two parents who had quite the dispute over what and how much should be paid out over maintenance, I can say that to a large extent, the determination of what costs are substantially based on what the existing factors and expenditures are on various aspects of the child's life. (And I'm basing this on the final judgement made by a circuit court). Though my circumstances were different, luckily, in that both parents had an income that would support my upbringing at the time.

My point is, I'm not so sure that it's actually based on the ideals of natural justice or the reality of what happens to people over their lives. If one parent suffers a substantial drop in income after a court decision for example, it should not be the case that the amount of money paid towards maintenance remains the same.

Also, to a certain degree, people can game the system in so far as demonstrate that they never had a certain income to declare in the affadavit of means while simply either evading or avoiding the relevant legal requirements of declaration. Or else simply describe dubious expenses on the back of the child's needs in the assumption that no one will pry too deeply into such a legally binding document.

While I can see that you are reiterating how the principles of the system are applied, I may not necessarily agree on this implementation. One item I am confused about though (And maybe the OP could clarify) is what supplements regarding childcare etc. the state is supposed to offer were someone to find themselves dependent on employment benefit as their sole source of income. I also wonder what legal avenues there are to ensure the mother will spend money on the essential needs of the child before anything else. I can personally say that's a difficult area to define.

January

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

@daltonmd

Having experienced the rigmarole of living between two parents who had quite the dispute over what and how much should be paid out over maintenance, I can say that to a large extent, the determination of what costs are substantially based on what the existing factors and expenditures are on various aspects of the child's life. (And I'm basing this on the final judgement made by a circuit court). Though my circumstances were different, luckily, in that both parents had an income that would support my upbringing at the time.

My point is, I'm not so sure that it's actually based on the ideals of natural justice or the reality of what happens to people over their lives. If one parent suffers a substantial drop in income after a court decision for example, it should not be the case that the amount of money paid towards maintenance remains the same.

Also, to a certain degree, people can game the system in so far as demonstrate that they never had a certain income to declare in the affadavit of means while simply either evading or avoiding the relevant legal requirements of declaration. Or else simply describe dubious expenses on the back of the child's needs in the assumption that no one will pry too deeply into such a legally binding document.

While I can see that you are reiterating how the principles of the system are applied, I may not necessarily agree on this implementation. One item I am confused about though (And maybe the OP could clarify) is what supplements regarding childcare etc. the state is supposed to offer were someone to find themselves dependent on employment benefit as their sole source of income. I also wonder what legal avenues there are to ensure the mother will spend money on the essential needs of the child before anything else. I can personally say that's a difficult area to define.

Please see post #42. Keep the thread on topic please.

daltonmd

Deleted - Off topic

Orion

Let's see if I have this right. General warning issued. Person who replies to you gets warned. And then you reply again? Enough already. Take discussion of general family court issues to another thread or drop it. This thread is about the OP's circumstances only.

angelfire9

Ok, I'm going to try and respond to your original post with some info from my experiences
I have prepared a number of affidavits of means for clients mainly for divorce hearings in the circuit court but occassionally in the District Court in Ennis (I'm an accountant) so I have some experience in the financial workings of family courts (some of which were experiences I'd rather not repeat)

Davidian_ie wrote: »

Was in Court today regarding maintenance for my child and to say it was a bizzare experience is an understatement.

Don't want to go into all the details but am currently unemployed and attending College through Springboard anywhere between 2-4 days per week. The course is excellent and is really giving me hope that I may find work when I complete it.

My son lives with his Mother full time and I get access to see him 2 days per week 10am-6pm. She refuses to allow him to stay over with me.

Can I suggest when you get your Legal Aid solicitor that the issue of access be ironed out, refusing to allow you overnight access seems a bit unfair IMHO

But anyway....

Davidian_ie wrote: »

My ex partner is working in a well paid full time job and has her Mother living with her full time also, who doesn't work (also responsible for why we don't live together anymore). When we split up she refused to sign guardianship and I had to apply through the Court and do self representation. She was summoned, never showed up and it was granted. So next week I get a summons for maintenance.

I have never dodged any responsibility for my child, he is the most important thing in the world to me. Anything the Mother asked for I get and most of my family are in the States and send a lot of stuff over for him. I buy full on groceries twice per week for him, which includes all his nappies etc. To reduce my cost of living I moved back to my home place as my Mother spends a lot of time abroad and it is a little cheaper to travel to college.

Sounds like your EX is trying to make things as difficult for you as possible, but honestly there is light at the end of the tunnel, try not to get too stressed over it, one of my former clients (who had health problems anyway) ended up getting his ex's maintenance applications adjourned twice as he ended up in hospital with heart/stress related issues when the court dates were looming

Davidian_ie wrote: »

Bottom line is I get euro 188 per week. I have to borrow a car to collect my son and it costs me euro 40 on fuel to just collect him and bring him back home. My travel to Dublin can be anything from euro 25 to 45 per week. Then there are costs of books,printing, etc. I applied for a medical card months ago and never received it and have been told to forget about it until at least next February. Want to know the costs of inhalers? When my son comes to spend the day with me, I have to ensure that the place is heated and he is well fed. I don't get fuel allowance or food allowance. I scrounge money from sisters to help make up the shortfalls to buy his other grocery shops for when he is not with me. I keep receipts for everything and my financial commitment is unquestionable.

I decided to turn up for court and represent myself again, as I believed that it would be straight forward and the Judge would see I was doing my absolute best for my child.

Wow was I wrong. Immediately the Judge took umbrage with me for turning up without a solicitor. I explained that I was unemployed and couldn't afford one. His dislike of me continued unabated. He refused to look at any of my expenses or money receipts I had for expenditure on my child. I tried in vain to then explain them to him and he just had no interest in listening to me. I told him about my travel expenses to collect my son, he said I was driving the wrong car and should buy a diesel one. I told him I can't afford a car and borrow the one I use. He said I should think about getting a motorbike. I said I don't want to buy a motorbike, as I don't know how to ride one or have the ability to afford one. He said I would then need to get a bicycle and I asked him did he think it was appropriate in this weather to bring a 2 year old child on an 80km round trip on a bicycle, especially in this weather. He said there were people doing it. I said in 6 months I had yet to pass someone on the motorway cycling with a child in tow.

This was the general tone from start to finish.

Ok, firstly the judge has given you grounds for appeal if what you have said above is accurate
PROVIDED you had your financial documents well laid out (as opposed to just having a bundle of receipts stapled together
The judge is OBLIDGED to take into consideration the means of both parties when awarding maintenance
BUT
If your "expenses and money receipts" were just that, i.e. receipts and pieces of paper some judges will not be assed to go through them, not fair, not reasonable, but no unusual either unfortunately

Davidian_ie wrote: »

After trying to convey my situation to him, he proceeds to tell me if JP McManus was in front of him today all he could grant him to pay was a maximum of euro150. WTF!!???!!! He then grants an order of euro 100 against me, tells me that it costs euro 300 per week to maintain a child. At this stage all I could do was laugh, I thought it was a wind up. I asked him did he think this was just and how did he think I was going to A) be able to collect my son and take care of him on my access days and continue to go to College. I told him this was completely illogical and made no sense. I can't go to my sisters and say give me money to give my ex, they will refuse and it would be unfair to even consider asking them.

Ok, first off, the judge was correct in saying that the maximum amount of maintenance payable in the District court is €150 per week per child
He awarded your ex a payment of €100 per week based on a cost of €300 per week (which is a figure your ex must have produced as it is not likely that the judge pulled this figure out of the sky) though maybe he did his attitude doesn't seem the best

Davidian_ie wrote: »

The contribution from my ex's solicitor during the whole case was 'We don't want Mr.XXXXX bringing groceries to the house'.

So I said to the Judge his recommendation basically amounted to me either packing in College or seeing my son. It would be just totally impossible for me to manage, let alone have any provision for myself.

Regarding the groceries, your ex probably feels that you bringing groceries to her house implies that you don't trust her to buy food for the child
I know that seems illogical but its not your responsibility to buy food for her house
That is what you are paying her maintenance for

As a side note arguing with a judge in court is NEVER a good idea

Davidian_ie wrote: »

The Court Clerk told me originally when he looked at my situation that i would have to pay probably euro 30 to 40 per week.

While Court Clerks have experience in what the average maintenance awards may be from a certain judge on an average day, you have found to your cost that it's not the Clerks that make the decisions

Davidian_ie wrote: »

I'm really stressed out by this whole process and have had chest pains all evening. I want to work so my son wants for nothing but now I'm faced with the prospect of being trapped on the dole or leaving the country. The latter prospect would break my heart and I wouldn't be able to deal with being away from my son. I don't even think my ex expected this and has probably gone home thinking she has won the Court lottery. If she looked at the bigger picture she would see the way this is headed, that no matter what I end up paying is all going to end up in some solicitor's pocket. Surely it is in her interest that I finish College and get into work asap.

I will obviously appeal this and get it extended so that legal aid can hopefully fight my case, for the record, I'm on a waiting list for Legal Aid since June and have been told it will be late January before I will be seen.

Also can I request a different Judge to hear my appeal?

Forgive all typing mistakes. I'm stressed.

Ok, my final thoughts on this are as follows:

1) A different judge will automatically be assigned to hear the appeal

2) Get on to FLAC & talk to someone pending your legal aid being approved

3) Get a hold of all the documents your ex produced in court and go through them with a fine tooth comb (metaphorically speaking), if there are figures here that you find questionable, then when you get your solicitor lined up the first thing you do is question her figures

4) Prepare a DETAILED affidavit of means for yourself
By this I mean list your incomings & your outgoings and be able to back up EVERY SINGLE FIGURE
Get a receipt for EVERY PENNY you spend, even if its just €2 for milk in the shop get the receipt!!!

Every bill you pay, get a receipt for it, even if these means paying your bills at the post office to get the printed receipts

Get back on to the medical card office & get them to write out to you to tell you the status of your medical card application (best way to do this is probably to write into them and they'll reply in writing)

Get on to the HSE (write to them) asking about your entitlements to fuel allowance and keep the letter they send you back denying your claim for that
Keep the receipts you get in the post office where you collect your dole

If you have any outstanding loans get loan statements
Get bank statements from any bank or credit union accounts you have, even if they show a "0" balance

Lastly, relax, honestly you will feel better anyway once you start getting all your little ducks in a row for the appeal

In the interim pay her the money that was ordered, it will only make you look bad if you don't
If you have to borrow money to pay it then borrow it BUT get it in WRITING that you had to borrow it

angelfire9

I should have said this as well
For the OP or anyone else in this situation

When preparing an affidavit of means have a 1 page TYPED document for the judge to review (it will make things much easier)
On it List (in this order)

Assets - If you have any i.e. car, house etc (put a value on them don't just state that you have a 2010 Toyota Corolla and a 2 bedroom house) :rolleyes:
NOTE: A Pension if you have one is counted as an asset for the purposes of family law
Liabilities - Outstanding loans / mortgage etc

Income
List your sources of income and the weekly or monthly amount in one column and the annual amount in another column
(income should be stated net of PAYE/PRSI/USC i.e. show what you get in your hand not the gross figure)
Add up your Income and total them weekly/monthly & annual

Less Expenses
List out your expenses per week or month (and have an annual column for these as well)
List things like rent or mortgage first followed by legal obligations like motor tax or your TV licence, followed by insurance followed by food followed by luxuries like Sky TV or whatever (In order of necessity in other words)

Add up your expenses and total them weekly/monthly & annual

On the bottom line show
Excess of Income over Expenditure
OR
Excess of Expenditure over Income
Show the figure weekly or monthly AND Annually
If your expenditure exceeds your income its common practice to highlight the Excess of E over I in Red ink

and make sure you can back up every single figure

Generally when I'm dealing with a client's divorce I do this for both parties (based on the discovery documents)

Thank you Angelfire, that looks like top class advice to me, just a pity I didn't have it prior to my initial hearing but it is all noted for my appeal. Thanks again, much appreciated.