Croke Park Disagreement? Rabbitte vs. Gilmore?

Permabear

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gandalf

TBH I think that Pat Rabbitte has realised that the Croke Park agreement in the long term will not protect the Public Service from cuts and job losses it probably will result in worse readjustments and redundancies because it has been used by the previous Government and this one to kick the can down the road from the hard decisions on real reform that are urgently needed.

As you point out the farce of having increments in pay for the PS when allowances for the poorest and most vulnerable members of society are slashed is extremely distasteful and when I see any Union head arguing against them on the media I just think to myself that they are hypocrites of the highest order.

The Croke Park agreement is in terminal decline, it is just a matter of when the Government grow the balls to pull the plug on its life-support.

murphaph

I wrote to a certain FG TD (minister) about some issues (national, not local rubbish) that I wanted his opinion on.

In his reply he stated that the CPA is up for negotiation, should REAL savings not be delivered.

We'll see I suppose. I personally don't believe a deficit as large as ours can be brought into line without reducing base rates of pay and pensions in the PS (not just reducing numbers).

femur61

I find it nothing short of insane unions insisting the CPA continues to be honoured. We as a country have a small tax intake but yet the highest paid PS in the EU. http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/public-sector-pay-at-a-glance Old people are getting their fuel allowance cut, 80% of the education budget is spent on wages.

I just find it hard to stomach as a human being that the most vunerable in society are being victimised.

wiseguy

femur61 wrote: »

I find it nothing short of insane unions insisting the CPA continues to be honoured. We as a country have a small tax intake but yet the highest paid PS in the EU. http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/public-sector-pay-at-a-glance Old people are getting their fuel allowance cut, 80% of the education budget is spent on wages.

I just find it hard to stomach as a human being that the most vunerable in society are being victimised.

So do I, make no mistake unelected public and civil servants are the ones running the country not FG or Labour who just became their pawns, same as FF and their unholly alliance with the Unions in the name of "Social Partnership" before them.

Dannyboy83

I took a half day last Wednesday to help a friend at the Social Welfare Office in Cork who was recently put on part time.

There was 1 person on the information desk and a queue onto the street.
Of the 9 kiosks serving the public, only 2 were open.
2 kiosks servicing a city with a Metropolitan population of 275,000 people.

It took an average of 15mins to see 1 person.
That's 4 people per hour.
That would be a maximum of 64 people in the working day.

It took me a while to click - but I realised after a while - the information desk disorder was quite purposely done. The idea was to slow the line of people getting to the kiosks and to create a massive queue - A lot of people just give up and turn away when they see the queue.

This is what the Croke Park Agreement is protecting, Ladies and Gentlemen.

Lockstep

femur61 wrote: »

I find it nothing short of insane unions insisting the CPA continues to be honoured. We as a country have a small tax intake but yet the highest paid PS in the EU. http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/public-sector-pay-at-a-glance Old people are getting their fuel allowance cut, 80% of the education budget is spent on wages.

I just find it hard to stomach as a human being that the most vunerable in society are being victimised.

That shows we have an above average-paid PS with low hours. Not the highest though.

deise blue

Lockstep wrote: »

That shows we have an above average-paid PS with low hours. Not the highest though.

The link seems to focus on managerial grades - of the 3 grades covered we lag behind the UK in 2.

Nor do the figures include the most recent pay cut introduced in December 2009's budget.

gandalf

deise blue wrote: »

The link seems to focus on managerial grades - of the 3 grades covered we lag behind the UK in 2.

Nor do the figures include the most recent pay cut introduced in December 2009's budget.

TBH I don't like comparisons with other countries, it detracts from the issue at hand.

What is indisputable is that we cannot afford our expenditure as a country as it stands. I cannot see any valid argument why increments should be paid when the country is bankrupt and the most needy are taking the pain head on, can you?

Permabear

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Manach

Playing Devil's advocate - The CPA brings stability. Unlike say the UK, France or especially Greece, the state employees have in the most part not resorted to crippling strikes that would both damage the economic sector and damage Ireland's reputation abroad.

deise blue

gandalf wrote: »

TBH I don't like comparisons with other countries, it detracts from the issue at hand.

What is indisputable is that we cannot afford our expenditure as a country as it stands. I cannot see any valid argument why increments should be paid when the country is bankrupt and the most needy are taking the pain head on, can you?

I agree with Mr. Howlin & Mr. Gilmore - the only way that Public Sector reform is going to be achieved is by consensus - in this regard adherence to the Croke Park Agreement is essential - all independent reports to date show that progress is being made & hopefully all targets will be met in due course.

The alternative is too awful for the Government to contemplate - an end to reform , a demoralised , disincentivised & bolshie workforce with the capability of grinding the country to a halt via well planned Union strategies.

Lockstep

deise blue wrote: »

The link seems to focus on managerial grades - of the 3 grades covered we lag behind the UK in 2.

Nor do the figures include the most recent pay cut introduced in December 2009's budget.

We're 4th for senior management pay, 5th for middle management pay and 7th for Executive secretary pay out of 14 countries.
Well paid but certainly not the best paid as has been claimed here.

It depends on how savings are made that is critical: I'd much prefer pay-freezes, an end to increments and consensus with the unions rather than job losses in the PS.

MagicMarker

I'd rather not waste 250 million euro in fear of people going on strike.

The country simply cannot afford to provide a pay increase to the public sector when everyone is taking cuts.

Dirk Gently

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

This is what the Croke Park Agreement is protecting, Ladies and Gentlemen.

sounds like an argument to say they are understaffed and over worked tbh. Anyone working behind a counter in social welfare is definitely not a protected elite sitting around doing nothing while on big money. The lowest grade staff work those departments, or human shields as I like to call them as the people on big money hide behind those at the lower end of the scale.

Poccington

The CPA isn't going to last, I wish they'd just axe it now.

Pay cuts are going to come again, I dunno how any of the big dogs in the Unions can delude themselves into thinking otherwise. Reform shouldn't be the carrot with pay cuts being the stick... The PS should constantly seek reform to better it's services.

I'm serving in the part of the PS which can't and doesn't have a Union, can't go on strike etc. plus, quite frankly the money isn't there to continue down the road we're on.

I'm still young, haven't got a family or house yet... I wish they'd just get the pay cuts out of the way so I can adjust accordingly, rather than somewhere down the road where I could be at a different stage in my life. The only thing I ask is that they're implemented in a fair way and that reform is pursued proactively rather than in a reactive manner throughout the PS.

Soldie

The head of INTO Noel Ward was on the Six One News just there with an emotive plea about how cuts were going to affect schools in disadvantaged areas. When Bryan Robson made the point that even just postponing next year's increments would more than pay for the proposed cuts, Ward claimed that doing so would be "extremely unfair". Pull the other one. How are these clowns even getting air time?

Minister B

Ive no problem with ps workers getting increments, these are not the issue. Reform is needed across our PS and the main outcome of that is compulsory redundancies at close to statutory levels for those not required and I don't say this lightly I'm well aware of the trauma a poor redundancy can have. However, If a ps worker deserves their increment give it to them, if they're no good show them the door. I don't think any PS employees worth keeping would argue.

We need to keep our best ps workers, lazy analysis looking for 10% cuts on pay across the board is just ignorant to the underlying issues.

For example, I work as an accountant in the private sector and when I left my training firm some of my friends joined the central bank, I told them they were mad as my take home pay was going to be 20% ahead of theirs due to all their compulsory pension deductions. So I've no problem with them or any ps worker getting their annual 3% if that keeps our best ps guys happy it will pay in the long run.

JRant

Of course Gilmore is bending over for all the Unions as he sees their votes as more important than others. The CPA was ridiculous from the get-go with too many vested interests and egos being massaged.

For the front-line workers in the civil/public sector things have deteriorated with pay rates falling and in some cases their workplace becoming unsafe i.e Hospitals. Yet those at or near the top pay-grades have seen the gap widen between themselves and the rest.

How is this good for the country?

How is that a good deal for the citizens?

murphaph

Soldie wrote: »

The head of INTO Noel Ward was on the Six One News just there with an emotive plea about how cuts were going to affect schools in disadvantaged areas. When Bryan Robson made the point that even just postponing next year's increments would more than pay for proposed cuts, Ward claimed that doing so would be "extremely unfair". Pull the other one. How are these clowns even getting air time?

Yeah it was gas.

"The poor kids" he cried. He literally had no answer for Dobson when asked could teachers not give up their increments to fill the gap.

These guys see absolutely no connection between their wages and the shortfall in funding for schools.

vamos!

murphaph wrote: »

Yeah it was gas.

"The poor kids" he cried. He literally had no answer for Dobson when asked could teachers not give up their increments to fill the gap.

These guys see absolutely no connection between their wages and the shortfall in funding for schools.

On the other side of the coin the staff working in disadvantaged schools work exceptionally hard to help the kids fight their disadvantage and sit the same exam more privileged kids sit. Why do they deserve to lose their pay. Not all disadvantaged students have parents who genuinely can't afford to provide a breakfast, copies and the likes. Why can't we assess genuine need and work on our long-term SW recipients- I'm talking those who have never worked and probably never will but can wear Nike runners and smoke? Or let the CPA fall and cut upper increments but leave the new entrants who are on 14.5k a year (like me and more common than you would think) alone?

20Cent

The public sector unions have stepped up to the plate and done all asked of them without complaint during the worst financial crisis in recent times. Something to be proud of.

SPDUB

Poccington wrote: »

I'm serving in the part of the PS which can't and doesn't have a Union, can't go on strike etc. plus, quite frankly the money isn't there to continue down the road we're on.

A staff association is just a union by a fancy name .

Everybody going out sick is a strike by another name .

murphaph

20Cent wrote: »

The public sector unions have stepped up to the plate and done all asked of them without complaint during the worst financial crisis in recent times. Something to be proud of.

Passport office fiasco included?

Not much has actually been asked of them, certainly not compared to the measures being imposed in Greece (50% salary cuts and massive layoffs) perhaps that's why there hasn't been any strikes (there has been much complaint).

headmaster

When I saw this thread opening, I said to myself, here we go again, public service bashing thread and so it is. When if ever will Mr/Ms public ever realise that not everyone in the ps have even a half decent wage, most are being paid benefits, family income supplement, etc, etc, etc. Wage cuts taken twice, pension cuts for retired people, pension levies, you name it they've taken it. Lets push them another bit, well ok, bring it on, if people think the public servants wont go on strike for a month, 2 months, 3 months +, well bring it on baby, bring it on and everything it brings with it. No time like the present. So, for all you bashers, for the Irish Indo journalist bashers and all the rest, go ahead and split everyone, hope ye all enjoy the consequences, or maybe ye all think we should lie down and listen to and take all your bitterness and jealousy. We can play the game the other way as well, same as you guys have always done, just try us one more time, please.
Now, i'm sure you'll all love the opportunity to come back with all guns blazing, off you all go then, it's what you're all good at. I will not be answering, so spoil me with all you can

20Cent

murphaph wrote: »

Passport office fiasco included?

Not much has actually been asked of them, certainly not compared to the measures being imposed in Greece (50% salary cuts and massive layoffs) perhaps that's why there hasn't been any strikes (there has been much complaint).

A work to rule in the passport office not exactly militant trade unionism.

Valmont

I think Rabbitte will be reminded by the labour bigwigs which side his bread is buttered on and then fall into line.

Looking at the general cuts in the last budget compared to this "increment" is sickening. I'm sorry if that's overly harsh language but in these times, with so many people really struggling, hearing that the public sector are still receiving raises--on the back of an increase in VAT no less--is so wrong I can't believe it's happening.

To those who rail against grossly immoral transfers of wealth; look no further than 2012!

woodoo

Freezing increments would only save €250 million this year. As they would be back the next year once they are unfrozen. Is 250million saved for on year worth it. It would just put a halt to the reforms and the goodwill needed to get the best from reforms.

Anyone who says do away with increments altogether obviously has no idea of how the pay structures work in the PS. Are people seriously saying that it would be acceptable for two guards at the same grade to get paid different rates indefinitely.

Or one one physiotherapist paid €35,000 and another at the same hospital doing the same work for €45,000 indefinitely when they have both signed the same contract.

Seth Brundle

Manach wrote: »

The CPA brings stability.

I believe that its just delaying the inevitable!
We can't afford the current rates of PS pay (given that we are borrowing just to keep paying it). Soon we will be in a position whereby we won't pay it.

Minister B wrote: »

Ive no problem with ps workers getting increments, these are not the issue.

I do. Why, given the loss of incomes whether through job losses or pay cuts within the private sector, should the public service be getting pay rises purely because they have managed to keep their job for another year? There is nothing to do with performance in the terms of their increments.

Minister B wrote: »

If a ps worker deserves their increment give it to them, if they're no good show them the door. I don't think any PS employees worth keeping would argue.

Anyhow, please give me one good reason why a PS worker deserves the increment given that we can't afford it?

Minister B wrote: »

We need to keep our best ps workers, lazy analysis looking for 10% cuts on pay across the board is just ignorant to the underlying issues.

What are the issues then?
Who defines who the best PS workers are?

For example, I work as an accountant in the private sector and when I left my training firm some of my friends joined the central bank, I told them they were mad as my take home pay was going to be 20% ahead of theirs due to all their compulsory pension deductions. So I've no problem with them or any ps worker getting their annual 3% if that keeps our best ps guys happy it will pay in the long run.[/QUOTE]Do you have a pension pot as good as theirs and what percentage of your income is it draining you of?
Can you be sacked? Can they?
Lastly, who will pay for the 3% pay rise given that we are already borrowing to pay for these salaries?

20Cent wrote: »

The public sector unions have stepped up to the plate and done all asked of them without complaint during the worst financial crisis in recent times. Something to be proud of.

IMO, they haven't been asked much because our politicians are too scared to tackle them head on!

Poccington

SPDUB wrote: »

A staff association is just a union by a fancy name .

Everybody going out sick is a strike by another name .

No, it really isn't. Our Representative Association have been told on more than once occasion by the Government to get back in it's box and it has done so. I'd love to see them try that with one of the Unions.

My part of the PS has never pulled an organised, blanket sickie and if they were to do so, there'd be hell to pay.

Sierra Oscar

I think it is slowly dawning on people that Croke Park is going to have to be revisited. The targets that FF pushed for in the agreement are being missed and overall the CPA is not delivering what it was meant to in its entirety.

Keep in mind that whilst Gilmore is saying the government is committed to the CPA that does not mean it will not be revisited, especially if (and likely when) it transpires that the aims are not being realized. Gilmore is moving cautiously on this one, which is the right thing to do. The last thing we need now is industrial unrest. Let meaningful renegotiation occur - it cannot simply be thrown out overnight.

Pride Fighter

I think it has to be looked at again. There will probably be massive pay cuts down the line for all staff if its not. But if action is taken now, they can massively reduce the salaries of those earning over 40k and protect the vast bulk of the public service.

I think its the fairest way.

Good loser

I'm amazed the EU/IMF aren't hassling them already big time over it.

The increments going can only be the first step; that's why it should be done right away.

Heard Olivia Mitchell say today that the PS pensions consume the entire income tax take from the PS.

femur61

I heard that, it was quite shocking.

fliball123

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I think it has to be looked at again. There will probably be massive pay cuts down the line for all staff if its not. But if action is taken now, they can massively reduce the salaries of those earning over 40k and protect the vast bulk of the public service.

I think its the fairest way.

That will never happen..it will be like the childrens allowance a straight cut across the board with no impartiality..I have been on these boards for the best part of 2 years pointing out the nonsense that is the CPA.....I have also pointed out that the PS are so far into their collective bargaining mode that they do not see the woods from the trees..and the guys on the higher salary will not take a bigger cut to help out their PS brethern on the lower scale....One poster was saying here the PS will go on strike for 1, 2 maybe 3 months...Go for it how much will we save on wages..and how much of a nest egg have the unions got...didnt SIPTU just dole out over 100million in pay rises to their members last week..Be very careful about striking as any good will that the general public have towards the PS will quickly dissolve and you may find people doing drive by eggings... ..The general public are already seeing a greatly reduced public serivce and paying more for it...

I also think that in next years budget if people see PS wage being cut then people on the dole and people paying tax will not feel as hard done by if these 3 areas are hit together..IMO I think the gov will hit all 3 areas...I do not think that public services (not including pay and pensions) can take much more of a hit so I think the 3 main areas of income tax , paying dole and paying ps pay and pensions will be hit in the budget next year...It still gives the gov a further 2 years to get back on the good side of these 3 different sectors of voters.

sarumite

20Cent wrote: »

A work to rule in the passport office not exactly militant trade unionism.

It is not exactly stepping up to the plate and doing all that has been asked them either. Ultimately the CPA has bought peace from the unions and really has little to do with union attitudes towards the crisis. Some say it is a price worth paying, others like me believe otherwise.

Sierra Oscar

It is interesting to note that some of the unions have been building "war chests" for some time now, so I think whilst the union officials are saying in public that things are all rosy in private they must realize that CPA cannot last as it currently is.

It would be interesting to see how long the unions war chest could support strike action. The government would not be able to cope with an all out strike that lasted over two weeks.

hallelujajordan

woodoo wrote: »

Anyone who says do away with increments altogether obviously has no idea of how the pay structures work in the PS. Are people seriously saying that it would be acceptable for two guards at the same grade to get paid different rates indefinitely.

Or one one physiotherapist paid €35,000 and another at the same hospital doing the same work for €45,000 indefinitely when they have both signed the same contract.

What an unusual concept but yet it exists throughout the private sector where performance and affordability drive salary increase rather than a need to match two individuals doing the same job . . In the real world the Garda / Physiotherapist who performs better would end up on the higher salary and the other one would be fired.

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I think it is slowly dawning on people that Croke Park is going to have to be revisited. The targets that FF pushed for in the agreement are being missed and overall the CPA is not delivering what it was meant to in its entirety.

The CPA will certainly have to be revisited and the government realise that but for now they are keeping their powder dry. They realised that they could reach their targets next year without touching the public sector but they also know they have it in their back pockets for next year when they may need it more (Noonan said as much on PK last week) . . No sense taking on the unions until you have to . . particularly when one of the government parties are propped up by union support (and funding) .. .

deise blue

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It is interesting to note that some of the unions have been building "war chests" for some time now, so I think whilst the union officials are saying in public that things are all rosy in private they must realize that CPA cannot last as it currently is.

It would be interesting to see how long the unions war chest could support strike action. The government would not be able to cope with an all out strike that lasted over two weeks.

You are of course quite right - the Government would not be able to cope with a prolonged strike .

Speaking as a person that has participated in three such prolonged strikes I can , with a degree of experience , say that once people commit to strike action then a sense of resolve enters the equation allied to a feeling of solidarity which in turn can lead to lengthy disputes.

It should also be borne in mind that a " work to rule " scenario in the PS would over time create huge problems - without an appreciable loss of pay to employees.

There is also the strong possibility that Unions via a contingency fund could bring out frontline workers again without such employees suffering an appreciable loss of pay.

It's little wonder that the Government are so determined to adhere to the Croke Park Agreement.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

woodoo

hallelujajordan wrote: »

What an unusual concept but yet it exists throughout the private sector where performance and affordability drive salary increase rather than a need to match two individuals doing the same job . . In the real world the Garda / Physiotherapist who performs better would end up on the higher salary and the other one would be fired .

A further paycut is probably likely in a couple of years time but i would be willing to bet a kidney that increments will not be done away with. They will certainly stay. They may be changed for new staff signing new contracts. They will not be done away with for existing staff.

fliball123

deise blue wrote: »

You are of course quite right - the Government would not be able to cope with a prolonged strike .

Speaking as a person that has participated in three such prolonged strikes I can , with a degree of experience , say that once people commit to strike action then a sense of resolve enters the equation allied to a feeling of solidarity which in turn can lead to lengthy disputes.

It should also be borne in mind that a " work to rule " scenario in the PS would over time create huge problems - without an appreciable loss of pay to employees.

There is also the strong possibility that Unions via a contingency fund could bring out frontline workers again without such employees suffering an appreciable loss of pay.

It's little wonder that the Government are so determined to adhere to the Croke Park Agreement.

well the gov have cowered away thus far my feeling on it is that they will have to do it..There are very few options left for this government...and next years budget if the dole gets cut or if income tax is raised and the cpa is left untouched along with these increments I think there will be blood in the streets ...So the question the gov have to ask themselves is ..Do we upset 300k (PS) do we upset the dole (500k) or do we upset the privates sector workers 1.3m .....As I say I can see a scenario next year where they apply a bit of pressure on each of the 3 areas above..and if they do cut the PS wage they will turn to the unions and say the IMF are making us do it...If you strike we can no longer function and therefor the game is up anyway as if we pay your wage at the rate we are paying we cannot satisfy the IMF criteria and we will not be able to borrow any more money. I wonder which union or PS group will be first to strike under that scenario when the poorest are being kicked and the average tax payer sees the cost of going to work going up...and yet PS and unions are hell bent on keeping increments...There is only so long this situation can continue

fliball123

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Is that how much its costing I cant see the Unions lasting too long so... and it will happen ..there will be a stike in this country by the PS as the CPA will have to be broken and the Unions will not listen to reason...

deise blue

fliball123 wrote: »

Is that how much its costing I cant see the Unions lasting too long so... and it will happen ..there will be a stike in this country by the PS as the CPA will have to be broken and the Unions will not listen to reason...

You are right - the Unions do not have the wherewithal to fund strike pay across the Public Sector.

I know that I am repeating myself here but it is most unlikely therefore that we will see an all out strike ( although the level of anger within the Public sector if the Croke Park Agreement is broken may make such a strike inevitable ) - In a doomsday scenario I believe that we will see a "work to rule " scenario allied to rolling strikes & the introduction of a contingency fund to enable frontline workers to strike without an appreciable loss of pay.

I really don't think the current Government & particularly the Labour Party rump are going to provoke such action - post 2014 however we may see more vigourous negotiations with the Unions on the future path for the Public Sector

fliball123

deise blue wrote: »

You are right - the Unions do not have the wherewithal to fund strike pay across the Public Sector.

I know that I am repeating myself here but it is most unlikely therefore that we will see an all out strike ( although the level of anger within the Public sector if the Croke Park Agreement is broken may make such a strike inevitable ) - In a doomsday scenario I believe that we will see a "work to rule " scenario allied to rolling strikes & the introduction of a contingency fund to enable frontline workers to strike without an appreciable loss of pay.

I really don't think the current Government & particularly the Labour Party rump are going to provoke such action - post 2014 however we may see more vigourous negotiations with the Unions on the future path for the Public Sector

So do you deem it prudent or correct for the PS and unions to carry out this threat if the CPA is broken due to the get out clause (worsening financial crisis) or if the IMF tell them to do so?? As I say this collective bargaining approach which they have been taking is protecting those in the higher salaries and when cuts come it will be with no impartiality and I will point this thread out on the boards for any ps who is bitching and moaning about being cut....The unions have too many higher ups in all unions and with their strong connection with labour the cpa will only be broken by one of the 2 scenarios above...So I think it would be morally wrong of the Unions and the PS to strike when the people they are hurting are not the ones who are making the desicions..

hallelujajordan

fliball123 wrote: »

Is that how much its costing I cant see the Unions lasting too long so... and it will happen ..there will be a stike in this country by the PS as the CPA will have to be broken and the Unions will not listen to reason...

The unions are not stupid . . strikes only ever work when there is support / sympathy from the general population . . they will do their cause more harm than good by striking .. the government will be able to move away from the CPA . . they just don't need to yet.

deise blue

fliball123 wrote: »

So do you deem it prudent or correct for the PS and unions to carry out this threat if the CPA is broken due to the get out clause (worsening financial crisis) or if the IMF tell them to do so?? As I say this collective bargaining approach which they have been taking is protecting those in the higher salaries and when cuts come it will be with no impartiality and I will point this thread out on the boards for any ps who is bitching and moaning about being cut....The unions have too many higher ups in all unions and with their strong connection with labour the cpa will only be broken by one of the 2 scenarios above...So I think it would be morally wrong of the Unions and the PS to strike when the people they are hurting are not the ones who are making the desicions..

As the Government is holding the line on the CPA & given the ramifications of breaking the Agreement as outlined by me I believe that the Agreement will run for the entirety of its time frame.

The Government is well aware of the threat posed by prolonged Industrial action &are even more aware that if the sweeping reforms mooted by the CPA are delivered & they then renege on the Agreement - mayhem will follow & any reference to finances & the IMF will fall on barren ground.

fliball123

deise blue wrote: »

As the Government is holding the line on the CPA & given the ramifications of breaking the Agreement as outlined by me I believe that the Agreement will run for the entirety of its time frame.

The Government is well aware of the threat posed by prolonged Industrial action &are even more aware that if the sweeping reforms mooted by the CPA are delivered & they then renege on the Agreement - mayhem will follow & any reference to finances & the IMF will fall on barren ground.

even if we find ourselves financially worse off then we are ..If our exports plummet due to the Euro crsis and even if the CPA delivers what it promises...I think the mayhem caused by the unions and PS will be meet with mayhem and chaos by the general public in outrage to such actions

ParkRunner

fliball123 wrote: »

even if we find ourselves financially worse off then we are ..If our exports plummet due to the Euro crsis and even if the CPA delivers what it promises...I think the mayhem caused by the unions and PS will be meet with mayhem and chaos by the general public in outrage to such actions

If the general public are not outraged enough to cause chaos about propping up the banks and guaranteeing the debts of bondholders I can't see them being too bothered about the CPA holding out for another two years. I can't see the unions causing mayhem anyway, any move to break the CPA would probably be met with a stance of work to rule and non-cooperation at worst

deise blue

fliball123 wrote: »

even if we find ourselves financially worse off then we are ..If our exports plummet due to the Euro crsis and even if the CPA delivers what it promises...I think the mayhem caused by the unions and PS will be meet with mayhem and chaos by the general public in outrage to such actions

I can't agree with you there - Unions traditionally have been the only entity in Irish Society who have managed to organise large scale protests.

The Irish Public to date have been remarkably restrained in the face of our current travails & to be honest I cannot see that changing.

It seems obvious to me that the Government has weighed the pro's & con's of the CPA & have come down on the pro's side - the IMF in reality don't care where savings are made as long as they are made.

On a brighter note it does appear that the CPA is delivering to date according to the Independent implementation body - it would be a pity to throw it all away.

woodoo

fliball123 wrote: »

even if we find ourselves financially worse off then we are ..If our exports plummet due to the Euro crsis and even if the CPA delivers what it promises...I think the mayhem caused by the unions and PS will be meet with mayhem and chaos by the general public in outrage to such actions

No chance of that