Why are the British so anti Europe?

gallag

The Corinthian wrote: »

Don't forget their rebate!

still, gotta be getting harder to explain to us ungrateful Brits the advantages of being in this club.

Skylinehead

gallag wrote: »

Does that make the U.K the largest contributor with the fourth largest economy and the largest trade deficit?

Not even close. Germany still pays far more.

The Corinthian

gallag wrote: »

still, gotta be getting harder to explain to us ungrateful Brits the advantages of being in this club.

Leave and find out.

At this stage I've reached a point that the EU may well be better off without the UK as a member. Sure, it'll be a shock to the system when it happens, but if that's the price that has to be paid for the EU to lose what has been quite often little more than a fifth column, then so be it.

And let's face it; the UK has never been comfortable with the idea of Europe. Churchill was all in favour of a united states of Europe - as long as the UK was not part of it. When the treaty of Rome was signed, the UK sent diplomats along to negotiate, but under no circumstances sign anything. Then the UK tried setting up EFTA in competition and see where that went. In the end Britain joined out of convenience and has often been seen as much trouble as anything.

So by all means, leave. Negotiate your own trade deals with the US, Australia, China. Eat all the New Zealand lamb you like. Deal with the EU as Switzerland, Iceland and Norway do. Implement 99% of all EU legislation, pay for access to EU programs and markets and best of all the rest of us won't have to deal with UK objections when we draft it all.

We'll fax it to you when it's ready.

Fratton Fred

The Corinthian wrote: »

Leave and find out.

At this stage I've reached a point that the EU may well be better off without the UK as a member. Sure, it'll be a shock to the system when it happens, but if that's the price that has to be paid for the EU to lose what has been quite often little more than a fifth column, then so be it.

And let's face it; the UK has never been comfortable with the idea of Europe. Churchill was all in favour of a united states of Europe - as long as the UK was not part of it. When the treaty of Rome was signed, the UK sent diplomats along to negotiate, but under no circumstances sign anything. Then the UK tried setting up EFTA in competition and see where that went. In the end Britain joined out of convenience and has often been seen as much trouble as anything.

So by all means, leave. Negotiate your own trade deals with the US, Australia, China. Eat all the New Zealand lamb you like. Deal with the EU as Switzerland, Iceland and Norway do. Implement 99% of all EU legislation, pay for access to EU programs and markets and best of all the rest of us won't have to deal with UK objections when we draft it all.

We'll fax it to you when it's ready.

Which deals did Ireland draft?

Would you prefer objections up front, or just have treaties signed and then blatently ignored?

The Corinthian

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Which deals did Ireland draft?

Would you prefer objections up front, or just have treaties signed and then blatently ignored?

Could you repeat that in a way that makes sense please?

Fratton Fred

The Corinthian wrote: »

Could you repeat that in a way that makes sense please?

Ok, I'll try writing slower.

Would you prefer countries raising objections to eu treaties (and being annoyingly troublesome) or signing up to a treaty and blatantly ignoring it?

Harry Palmr

Jim2007 wrote: »

I gather that some of sorting it out was to include rather questionable calculations in their figures for GDP etc... Now the hens are coming home to roost...

A perfect illustration as to why Mediterranean accounting practices are better.

Fratton Fred

Jim2007 wrote: »

I gather that some of sorting it out was to include rather questionable calculations in their figures for GDP etc... Now the hens are coming home to roost...

Questionable? Like not including prostitution as part of GDP?

gallag

The Corinthian wrote: »

Leave and find out.

At this stage I've reached a point that the EU may well be better off without the UK as a member. Sure, it'll be a shock to the system when it happens, but if that's the price that has to be paid for the EU to lose what has been quite often little more than a fifth column, then so be it.

And let's face it; the UK has never been comfortable with the idea of Europe. Churchill was all in favour of a united states of Europe - as long as the UK was not part of it. When the treaty of Rome was signed, the UK sent diplomats along to negotiate, but under no circumstances sign anything. Then the UK tried setting up EFTA in competition and see where that went. In the end Britain joined out of convenience and has often been seen as much trouble as anything.

So by all means, leave. Negotiate your own trade deals with the US, Australia, China. Eat all the New Zealand lamb you like. Deal with the EU as Switzerland, Iceland and Norway do. Implement 99% of all EU legislation, pay for access to EU programs and markets and best of all the rest of us won't have to deal with UK objections when we draft it all.

We'll fax it to you when it's ready.

your opinion will be influenced by the fact you and your country have benefited massively from the EU, in no small part thanks to the UK being a main contributor but you seem to have a hard time looking at it objectivity and from the perspective of people who are put of pocket. you seem to take personal offence at any non pro EU post in here, in fact there seems to be a very one sided attitude of moderation in this forum, would I be correct assuming every single mod in here is very pro EU? is that conducive to healthy debate?

[MOD]
1. The Corinthian is not a mod.
2. Within the rules, you're as entitled to your opinion as anyone else, and in no way prevented from expressing it.
3. But if you have an issue with moderation, take it to Feedback, rather than trying to play it to the gallery. Standard boards rules, ignoring which lands you with a standard yellow card.
[/MOD]

Fratton Fred

gallag wrote: »

your opinion will be influenced by the fact you and your country have benefited massively from the EU, in no small part thanks to the UK being a main contributor but you seem to have a hard time looking at it objectivity and from the perspective of people who are put of pocket. you seem to take personal offence at any non pro EU post in here, in fact there seems to be a very one sided attitude of moderation in this forum, would I be correct assuming every single mod in here is very pro EU? is that conducive to healthy debate?

Unless, of course, Corinthian is proposing that Ireland makes up the €10bn shortfall in the eu budget should the UK leave?

Of course not

gallag

to put this into perspective, this works out at about £30 per man, woman and child, getting close to the same level of charge per household as the Irish will soon be paying for water charges, and that's just 20% on top of what we pay in total! ! mabey you can now appreciate our complaints are not just "little Englander" or "harping back to the glory days of the empire" more just a people fed up getting hit in the pocket.

SpaceTime

The EU's clearly hired FG to do their political planning. It has elements of shooting yourself in both feet!

It's got elements of VAT on children's shoes and Irish water.

Nodin

gallag wrote: »

to put this into perspective, this works out at about £30 per man, woman and child, getting close to the same level of charge per household as the Irish will soon be paying for water charges, and that's just 20% on top of what we pay in total! ! mabey you can now appreciate our complaints are not just "little Englander" or "harping back to the glory days of the empire" more just a people fed up getting hit in the pocket.

Other states pay more of a contribution, so other than politicking I fail to see what the complaining is about.

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

Other states pay more of a contribution, so other than politicking I fail to see what the complaining is about.

Easy to say when you are taker, not the giver.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Easy to say when you are taker, not the giver.

Is this a reasoned debate or some sort of childish snipe-fest?

There was a system agreed to determine contributions. Britian signed up to it. Now its not politically expedient domestically, theres much thumping of chests and waving of hands. Its fairly straightforward..

McDave

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Today's news that because the UK has managed to sort it's **** out better than the rest of the eu they will have to pay an additional £1.7bn is only going to play in to the eurosceptic's hands.

The UK gets a lot out of trade with the rest of the EU. By helping poorer countries to build up their infrastructures, richer countries help build up markets for them to do yet more business in. It's enlightened self-interest.

Of course navel-gazing Europhobes taking the short view will continue to whine. But what else can the rest of us expect from them at this point. We can maybe hope that most Brits will see sense and opt for a continued EU membership that is of mutual interest. Otherwise the Brits may as well cede Europe writ large to the EU members who see the bigger picture, and seek solace as an ever diminishing partner in the declining 'special relationship'.

McDave

gallag wrote: »

still, gotta be getting harder to explain to us ungrateful Brits the advantages of being in this club.

Explain it to yourselves properly, and you just might come to the right decision!

I'd hazard the UK will stay in the EU. And comfortably. The 'Little Englander' Independence Party will peak early. The rest will be history for Farage GmbH.

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

Is this a reasoned debate or some sort of childish snipe-fest?

There was a system agreed to determine contributions. Britian signed up to it. Now its not politically expedient domestically, theres much thumping of chests and waving of hands. Its fairly straightforward..

And according to this agreed system, when was Ireland supposed to be a net contributor?

Fratton Fred

McDave wrote: »

The UK gets a lot out of trade with the rest of the EU. By helping poorer countries to build up their infrastructures, richer countries help build up markets for them to do yet more business in. It's enlightened self-interest

In theory, yes, but the reality is somewhat different.

I too hope the UK sees sense and does not leave the eu, but the whole set up needs a drastic review.

Jim2007

gallag wrote: »

to put this into perspective, this works out at about £30 per man, woman and child, getting close to the same level of charge per household as the Irish will soon be paying for water charges, and that's just 20% on top of what we pay in total! ! mabey you can now appreciate our complaints are not just "little Englander" or "harping back to the glory days of the empire" more just a people fed up getting hit in the pocket.

Here is the thing both The Corinthian and I live outside the EU, in Switzerland and we see what it actually means to have to do business with the EU. And it is not at all as those wishing to leave the EU would have you believe! For instance we have to contribute to the EU structural fund in the same proportion as small EU states do, we have to accept the free movement of people, we have to accept most EU legislation and on top of this we need for economic reasons to keep the Franc pegged to the Euro, we are in reality an EU member without a vote! But that is the cost of getting access to the market!

Fratton Fred

Jim2007 wrote: »

Here is the thing both The Corinthian and I live outside the EU, in Switzerland and we see what it actually means to have to do business with the EU. And it is not at all as those wishing to leave the EU would have you believe! For instance we have to contribute to the EU structural fund in the same proportion as small EU states do, we have to accept the free movement of people, we have to accept most EU legislation and on top of this we need for economic reasons to keep the Franc pegged to the Euro, we are in reality an EU member without a vote! But that is the cost of getting access to the market!

different ball game though. The UK is a significantly larger economy than Switzerland. The eu also needs access to the UK market.

As it is currently set up, there is no requirement for countries, or more specifically governments, to grow their economies. Why should they when the eu will pick up the tab for everything?

Why become a larger economy, pay you own way and contribute to the eu when you can just have your politicians pissing the money away and let the eu pay for new roads and infrastructure?

Jim2007

Fratton Fred wrote: »

In theory, yes, but the reality is somewhat different.

I too hope the UK sees sense and does not leave the eu, but the whole set up needs a drastic review.

There is a basic problem here, the UK wants a trading block only, while the rest want an integrated Europe!

Fratton Fred

Jim2007 wrote: »

There is a basic problem here, the UK wants a trading block only, while the rest want an integrated Europe!

Do they though?

SpaceTime

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Do they though?

A core few do.
There's a significant anti EU sentiment growing in many countries at the moment for lots of reasons.

I'd even say here in Ireland you'll struggle to get another referendum passed in any future treaty expansion, particularly with the way they've gone after us and singled us out on tax issues which could have damaged the economic recovery at the worst possible moment.

There's still a lot of bitterness in many places about bailouts, austerity, inflexibility and the EZ crisis too.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And according to this agreed system, when was Ireland supposed to be a net contributor?

What has that to do with anything? Are we to indulge in some "what about Belgium....?"

Britain signed up, Britain agreed to the changes in assessment methodology. Others pay more overall. The only reason this is being whinged about is that domestic political players will run with it. The EU cannot be held up is because pandering is now Camerons favoured method of trying to prevent his vote being eroded..

Jim2007

Fratton Fred wrote: »

different ball game though. The UK is a significantly larger economy than Switzerland. The eu also needs access to the UK market.

Ya about that... This significant economy's seventh biggest trading partner is Ireland a country of what about 4 - 4.5 million people... Not confidence inspiring.

And as for market access that cuts both ways, although I'd expect a market of say 400m people to hold sway and I can't think of anything that the EU just gota have from the UK.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

As it is currently set up, there is no requirement for countries, or more specifically governments, to grow their economies. Why should they when the eu will pick up the tab for everything?

Why become a larger economy, pay you own way and contribute to the eu when you can just have your politicians pissing the money away and let the eu pay for new roads and infrastructure?

In my opinion this is the thing the UK does not get - economics is only one aspect of the EU for the other members and it is not The Aspect as it is in the UK. I find it hard to see how DC can expect to bridge the gap as the expectations are so different.

oscarBravo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

different ball game though. The UK is a significantly larger economy than Switzerland. The eu also needs access to the UK market.

This is a fairly standard trope of the British superiority complex, but we're talking about a market of 64 million people negotiating with a market of 430 million people. No matter how much the EU needs the UK market, the UK needs the EU market a lot more.

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

What has that to do with anything? Are we to indulge in some "what about Belgium....?"

Britain signed up, Britain agreed to the changes in assessment methodology. Others pay more overall. The only reason this is being whinged about is that domestic political players will run with it. The EU cannot be held up is because pandering is now Camerons favoured method of trying to prevent his vote being eroded..

No, it's not indulging in whataboutery, it is plain common sense. For how long do the large economies keep propping up the smaller economies?

Fratton Fred

oscarBravo wrote: »

This is a fairly standard trope of the British superiority complex, but we're talking about a market of 64 million people negotiating with a market of 430 million people. No matter how much the EU needs the UK market, the UK needs the EU market a lot more.

I know, but you have completely twisted my point.

Fratton Fred

Jim2007 wrote: »

Ya about that... This significant economy's seventh biggest trading partner is Ireland a country of what about 4 - 4.5 million people... Not confidence inspiring.

And as for market access that cuts both ways, although I'd expect a market of say 400m people to hold sway and I can't think of anything that the EU just gota have from the UK.

Money.

The UK is Germany's second largest export market. France and the Netherlands fourth.

In my opinion this is the thing the UK does not get - economics is only one aspect of the EU for the other members and it is not The Aspect as it is in the UK. I find it hard to see how DC can expect to bridge the gap as the expectations are so different.

I know. I'll give a scenario close to home.

My parents are retired and are fairly liberal people, by no stretch of the imagination are they racist or xenophobic, certainly not your typical Daily Mail readers.

Thanks to the raid on pensions, the money they worked hard to put aside for their pensions has diminished considerably and one of the things they have given up is their private health care.

Now my diabetic mother is in the hands of the NHS, they are amazed that when you go to ser a specialist, there are no English people in the waiting rooms. Not Indian or Pakistani immigrants, eastern Europeans who have come to the UK, obtained an NI number as is their right and then suddenly developed an illness that requires extensive treatment that they would never have been able to afford in their home country. Health tourism is becoming very noticeable.

Yeah, the Brits are getting fed up with it.