Disadvantages to Ireland of EU Membership

Laois_Man

Everyone keeps ramming down our throats all the fantastic things that joining the EEC did for Ireland over the last 40 years.

There's also disadvantages of joining, or more specifically,staying!

The most obvious of these is how Europe robbed our fishing industry. I read a "fact" recently that throughout our membership, Europe has taken more money from Irish fishing than what we've been given in grants. In my opinion this is probably a scewed statistic in many ways but there's still no denying that being in Europe hasn't been great for our fishermen.

Of course there's also the fact that having our own currency would give us the flexibility to set our own interest rates or devalue as we see fit (after we get on our feet after X amount of time).

What other disadvantages has there been that could be exploited and turned around to our advantage in the event of us dropping out of the Eurozone and in theory\hypothetically, the EU itself that could help negate the loss of all the good things EU membership does for us that we hear so much about? Surely we're in a FAR better position now to grab our opportunities than we were at the start of the 1970's!

Cookie_Monster

Not being able to set our own interest rates is/was a huge disadvantage, could have kept them higher to put a break on the sky rocketing property prices (by making mortages etc more expensive) and maybe the current mess would not be so bad...

McTigs

i don't think it was so much the interest rates the banks were charging as the sheer amounts they were lending.

kippy

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Not being able to set our own interest rates is/was a huge disadvantage, could have kept them higher to put a break on the sky rocketing property prices (by making mortages etc more expensive) and maybe the current mess would not be so bad...

That has got nothing to do with EU membership. Euro (currency) membership yes, but not EU membership.

It's easy talking now about the disadvantages of membership but overall Ireland has improved greatly in the years it has been member of the EU/EC/EEC/EUROPE or whatever you want to call it.

Welease

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Not being able to set our own interest rates is/was a huge disadvantage, could have kept them higher to put a break on the sky rocketing property prices (by making mortages etc more expensive) and maybe the current mess would not be so bad...

They could have.. but they wouldn't have.

The Government made no attempt to cool the market, in fact through continued tax breaks and incentives they continued to try and further stimulate the housing market further right up till the end. This was our economic "miracle"......

hmmm

Laois_Man wrote: »

The most obvious of these is how Europe robbed our fishing industry. I read a "fact" recently that throughout our membership, Europe has taken more money from Irish fishing than what we've been given in grants. In my opinion this is probably a scewed statistic in many ways but there's still no denying that being in Europe hasn't been great for our fishermen

Was there some massive Irish fishing industry pre EU days? Of course not.

Instead of Intel, Google software engineers and Pharma employees we'd have an economy based on us all catching fish? I don't think so.

Laois_Man

kippy wrote: »

It's easy talking now about the disadvantages of membership but overall Ireland has improved greatly in the years it has been member of the EU/EC/EEC/EUROPE or whatever you want to call it.

It has improved greatly while we've been in it. That doesn't mean all or even most of our improvement has been because of it! Surely the biggest improvement was due to the drop in corporation tax in the 90's which had nothing to do with us being in Europe. I was very young, but to the best of my recollection, we weren't at all well off in the 80's and thru the early 90's. We were miserable infact up to when we took that massive bribe for signing up to the Maastricht treaty. And look how that's turned out!

A point of the thread that is being missed is, nobody ever talks about how NOT being in the EU in the future could be of benefit to us! What benefit's could be foreseen?

Laois_Man

hmmm wrote: »

Was there some massive Irish fishing industry pre EU days? Of course not.

Instead of Intel, Google software engineers and Pharma employees we'd have an economy based on us all catching fish? I don't think so.

Flaw 1. You appear to be giving credit to the EU for our attracting of technology investment. What did that have to do with EU? See above

Flaw 2. You appear to be comparing the business acumen of Ireland to that of the 1960's as if it were like for like. Your assumption being that we'd have made NO progress without Europe.

Flaw 3. You're ignoring the taxation\Licence policies we could have introduced in the last 40 years where Spainish trawlers would have been paying US!

whatstherush

Laois_Man you know that 'fact' you mentioned reading in your first post about the fishy's, why don't provide a link to back it up?

Laois_Man

hmmm wrote: »

Was there some massive Irish fishing industry pre EU days? Of course not.

Instead of Intel, Google software engineers and Pharma employees we'd have an economy based on us all catching fish? I don't think so.

whatstherush wrote: »

Laois_Man you know that 'fact' you mentioned reading in your first post about the fishy's, why don't provide a link to back it up?

2 reasons.

1. I don't know where I saw it. It could even have been on here or on Politics.ie

2. I am willing to, and already have discredited this statistic myself as being "scewed". I believe it's probably estimating the entire value of fish taken out of Irish waters by foreign vessels and counting it as if Central Europe was getting all of it and using that figure to compare to what Europe has given to us.

liammur

Welease wrote: »

They could have.. but they wouldn't have.

The Government made no attempt to cool the market, in fact through continued tax breaks and incentives they continued to try and further stimulate the housing market further right up till the end. This was our economic "miracle"......

It's a shame most people can't seem to grasp this most basic point. Furthermore, does anyone seriously think ahern and cowen would be upping interest rates for the good of the country?

Manach

Depending on one's PoV, alot of equality legislation in Ireland was necessiated by membership of the EU. This effected pay, conditions etc for numerous workers. If this was disadvantageous in a monitory sense depends on taking the long/short term view of the economy.

Laois_Man

Laois_Man wrote: »

It has improved greatly while we've been in it. That doesn't mean all or even most of our improvement has been because of it! Surely the biggest improvement was due to the drop in corporation tax in the 90's which had nothing to do with us being in Europe. I was very young, but to the best of my recollection, we weren't at all well off in the 80's and thru the early 90's. We were miserable infact up to when we took that massive bribe for signing up to the Maastricht treaty. And look how that's turned out!

A point of the thread that is being missed is, nobody ever talks about how NOT being in the EU in the future could be of benefit to us! What benefit's could be foreseen?

A prime example of the way the corporation tax issue has been sold to the us. Our corporate tax rate of 12.5% has only been in effect since 2003. Before that I believe it was something like 32%. We were doing fine when it was 32%.

Why is this such an issue with us as a country? That, in my opinion, is the most important question.

kippy

Laois_Man wrote: »

It has improved greatly while we've been in it. That doesn't mean all or even most of our improvement has been because of it! Surely the biggest improvement was due to the drop in corporation tax in the 90's which had nothing to do with us being in Europe. I was very young, but to the best of my recollection, we weren't at all well off in the 80's and thru the early 90's. We were miserable infact up to when we took that massive bribe for signing up to the Maastricht treaty. And look how that's turned out!

A point of the thread that is being missed is, nobody ever talks about how NOT being in the EU in the future could be of benefit to us! What benefit's could be foreseen?

Fair point, however one has to wonder would that FDI have located here were we not members of the EU?
Perhaps we would not have been able to drop corporation tax were we not members and receiving grants for everything else?
Very hard to actually answer those questions and indeed almost any other question you could pose in a similiar manner about the past 40 years.
And again, very difficult to answer what could happen in the future were we to leave the party as well. We still owe billions, leaving the Euro/Europe doesn't change that.
In fact there is far more uncertainty attached to leaving the group than remaining in it, and that is saying a lot.....

hmmm

kippy wrote: »

Fair point, however one has to wonder would that FDI have located here were we not members of the EU?

Why are we even debating this point? Of course we wouldn't have a tenth of the FDI if we were not part of the EU - the only reason they are here is because they can access EU markets.

If we were on our own, do you think Intel would have set up a plant to sell into the Irish market only? Ireland would have had to negotiate access to EU markets, so we'd have ended up paying tariffs to get access, and then having to implement EU regulations anyway without having any say on them.

I don't want to become a fisherman, I'd rather stay within the EU. This obsession with fish would be laughable if people didn't take it so seriously. "What has the EU ever done for us, well, other than access to the largest market in the world, the ability to attract massive FDI, the help to move our economy away from farming, equality laws, environmental cleanup, massive infrastructural investment to help us develop, massive investment in education to assist us to build a 3rd level sector, huge subsidies to our farming population.

That's all very well, but they took our fish and our right to all become fishermen!!"

ArmaniJeanss

Laois_Man wrote: »

Flaw 3. You're ignoring the taxation\Licence policies we could have introduced in the last 40 years where Spainish trawlers would have been paying US!

Why should they have paid us a penny, they could just come in and taken the fish at will, and theres not a lot our 'Navy' could have done to prevent it. The odd arrest here or there obviously, but the odds would definitely have favoured the Spanish fisherman.

Though I suppose we could always have protested using our position within the European Uni..... oh wait.

hmmm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Why should they have paid us a penny, they could just come in and taken the fish at will, and theres not a lot our 'Navy' could have done to prevent it. The odd arrest here or there obviously, but the odds would definitely have favoured the Spanish fisherman.

Though I suppose we could always have protested using our position within the European Uni..... oh wait.

Not to forget this
http://www.military.ie/naval-service/history

In 1972 LE Deirdre (P20) was commissioned into service. She was the first of four new ships to be built in the 1972 - 1980 period. After LE Deirdre followed LE Emer (1978), LE Aoife (1979), LE Aisling (1980). The funding for these ships came from the EU after the Irish Exclusive Fishery Zone was extended from 12 miles out to 200 miles in 1976. This left the Naval Service with four modern and well equipped warships to add to the fleet to aid it in conducting it’s operational requirements.

Laois_Man

hmmm wrote: »

Why are we even debating this point? Of course we wouldn't have a tenth of the FDI if we were not part of the EU - the only reason they are here is because they can access EU markets.

If we were on our own, do you think Intel would have set up a plant to sell into the Irish market only? Ireland would have had to negotiate access to EU markets, so we'd have ended up paying tariffs to get access, and then having to implement EU regulations anyway without having any say on them.

I don't want to become a fisherman, I'd rather stay within the EU. This obsession with fish would be laughable if people didn't take it so seriously. "What has the EU ever done for us, well, other than access to the largest market in the world, the ability to attract massive FDI, the help to move our economy aaway from farming, equality laws, environmental cleanup, massive infrastructural investment to help us develop, massive investment in education to assist us to build a 3rd level sector, huge subsidies to our farming population.

That's all very well, but they took our fish and our right to all become fishermen!!"

I work for am American corporation in Ireland who had NO interest in access to the EU markets as a motive to set up here!

Nody

Laois_Man wrote: »

Everyone keeps ramming down our throats all the fantastic things that joining the EEC did for Ireland over the last 40 years.

There's also disadvantages of joining, or more specifically,staying!

The most obvious of these is how Europe robbed our fishing industry. I read a "fact" recently that throughout our membership, Europe has taken more money from Irish fishing than what we've been given in grants. In my opinion this is probably a scewed statistic in many ways but there's still no denying that being in Europe hasn't been great for our fishermen.

Of course there's also the fact that having our own currency would give us the flexibility to set our own interest rates or devalue as we see fit (after we get on our feet after X amount of time).

What other disadvantages has there been that could be exploited and turned around to our advantage in the event of us dropping out of the Eurozone and in theory\hypothetically, the EU itself that could help negate the loss of all the good things EU membership does for us that we hear so much about? Surely we're in a FAR better position now to grab our opportunities than we were at the start of the 1970's!

The value of fish taken out of Irish waters from 1950-2004 is approximately €12bn at current exchange rates. Of that, €3.5 billion worth approximately was taken before Ireland joined the EU and the remaining €8.5bn between 1974 and 2004. Of the €12bn, Irish boats have taken approximately 25% or €3bn. The total value of the catch has risen since Ireland joined the EU and Ireland has been amongst the prime beneficiaries from the increased catch (see Fig 1)

“In truth, Irish boats have been taking an increasing share of the fish caught in Irish waters. And this share increased significantly from 9.8% in the 1960s to 23.7% in the 1980s and to more than 25.7% between 2000 and 2004.”

More details here. In short it is another "Shell to sea" story you've been sold; a small group of people who's interest it is to blow things up with out facts...

K-9

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

A prime example of the way the corporation tax issue has been sold to the us. Our corporate tax rate of 12.5% has only been in effect since 2003. Before that I believe it was something like 32%. We were doing fine when it was 32%.

Why is this such an issue with us as a country? That, in my opinion, is the most important question.

We had things like manufacturing and the IFSC relief before that, low tax breaks were always an important part of Corporation tax policy. In many way our lax tax laws are as important as the rate now as they've replaced the tax reliefs.

Nody wrote: »

More details here. In short it is another "Shell to sea" story you've been sold; a small group of people who's interest it is to blow things up with out facts...

Our share had actually gone up but them non EU Norwegians keep stealing our fish. We also fish a lot in British waters.

K-9

K-9 wrote: »

We had things like manufacturing and the IFSC relief before that, low tax breaks were always an important part of Corporation tax policy. In many way our lax tax laws are as important as the rate now as they've replaced the tax reliefs.

But can this be backed up with proof? We're now taking in less money through corporation tax than we were when the new rate of 12.5% came in.

What are you basing your assumptions on. I would argue that corporation tax rates could be lower than necessary and if we could squeeze a few percent out of them then we most certainly should.

K-9

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

But can this be backed up with proof?

That reliefs and low tax rates have been part of our CT rate for years? I thought it was pretty obvious, see link below:

We're now taking in less money through corporation tax than we were when the new rate of 12.5% came in.

Not from here it hasn't, though if you've a better source?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_tax_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Se.C3.A1n_Lemass_and_after

What are you basing your assumptions on. I would argue that corporation tax rates could be lower than necessary and if we could squeeze a few percent out of them then we most certainly should.

No major objection myself and I've assumed nothing. I think we need proof that raising it will do no damage. A few sources who've researched it would be good though.

kippy

hmmm wrote: »

Why are we even debating this point? Of course we wouldn't have a tenth of the FDI if we were not part of the EU - the only reason they are here is because they can access EU markets.

If we were on our own, do you think Intel would have set up a plant to sell into the Irish market only? Ireland would have had to negotiate access to EU markets, so we'd have ended up paying tariffs to get access, and then having to implement EU regulations anyway without having any say on them.

I don't want to become a fisherman, I'd rather stay within the EU. This obsession with fish would be laughable if people didn't take it so seriously. "What has the EU ever done for us, well, other than access to the largest market in the world, the ability to attract massive FDI, the help to move our economy away from farming, equality laws, environmental cleanup, massive infrastructural investment to help us develop, massive investment in education to assist us to build a 3rd level sector, huge subsidies to our farming population.

That's all very well, but they took our fish and our right to all become fishermen!!"

I am debating the point as it was brought up by a poster. I agree fully with what you were saying and mentioned it purely to highlight that the argument was impossible to back up.....

wiseguy

hmmm wrote: »

Was there some massive Irish fishing industry pre EU days? Of course not.

Instead of Intel, Google software engineers and Pharma employees we'd have an economy based on us all catching fish? I don't think so.

How long do you think the Phizers, Googles and Intels of this island would stick around once corporation tax is raised (erm "harmonized") and loophole which they use to move their profits offshore is closed by the new European club (whatever it will be called).

Honest question, do reply.

Fromthetrees

Robert Schuman declared that a supranational community would make war ‘not only unthinkable but materially impossible'. This was one of the principle reasons for the founding of the European Coal and Steel Community.

What we will end with is a United States of Europe. Is that what people want?

Ireland has benefited exponentially from being members of the European Union, we would probably be a nation of less than a million farmers subsisting out a living, a century behind the rest of Europe without being involved.

The problem for me though is why can't we have the good parts of Europe, free trade, movement of people, equality laws ect. without being in a United States of Europe. For example, in the Unites States of America the money is drawn to the major economic centres, the north east and to California. In my opinion being a peripheral economy without sovereignty/control over key areas such as interest rates has been a major disadvantage, a lot of people accept that not being able to devalue our currency has been a disadvantage, losing our corporation tax rate would put us at a disadvantage, how long can we actually keep it?

Having a single currency without complete fiscal union is impossible, so, we hand over all our economic sovereignty to people we don't elect, how exactly can we hold them to account?

Finally, the day before we joined the European Economic Community in 1973 we were a completely independent nation (albeit a bit backward but that's not my point) free to do as we please economically, socially ect. How does the European project finish for Ireland? Will it be any major decisions are made by unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels on our behalf, will our income tax rates be set by them, can a nameless official in an office in Frankfurt decide to cut the dole in half with the flick of the pen? The European Union is essentially quite undemocratic, we have a hard enough time holding our own elected officials to account, how can we hold people to account that we can't see but hold so much power? These bureaucrats work for the greater good of Europe as a whole, not for Ireland.

I'm pro Europe but I have grave misgivings about the whole thing.

View

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Robert Schuman declared that a supranational community would make war ‘not only unthinkable but materially impossible'. This was one of the principle reasons for the founding of the European Coal and Steel Community.

What we will end with is a United States of Europe.

How do you know? The member states are free to abolish the European Union in the morning if they so wish, so how can anyone state how the European Union will look in 10 years time much less in 100 years time?

Fromthetrees

View wrote: »

How do you know? The member states are free to abolish the European Union in the morning if they so wish, so how can anyone state how the European Union will look in 10 years time much less in 100 years time?

The purpose of the United States of America is........'to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.' In essence, the fundamental purpose is to assure the integrity and vitality of our free society, which is founded upon the dignity and worth of the individual.


The purpose of the European Union is...........to promote economic and social progress and a high level of employment and to achieve balanced and sustainable development, in particular through the creation of an area without internal frontiers, through the strengthening of economic and social cohesion and through the establishment of economic and monetary union, ultimately including a single currency in accordance with the provisions of this Treaty,
to assert its identity on the international scene, in particular through the implementation of a common foreign and security policy including the progressive framing of a common defence policy, which might lead to a common defence, in accordance with the provisions of Article 17

Both unions have broadly the same aims and goals. The goal of many people in Europe is a federation of the different countries, funnily enough this is what Libertas leader Declan Ganley advocates yet he was against the Lisbon treaty.

mistermouse

Fundamentaly the European project is a good idea. The Euro as it is probably isn't.

The problem with Europe that existed long before any crisis is its bureaucasy and the level of accountability.

Ireland I feel has always pandered to Europe, more so than other nations and still does. We always want to be seen more European than the Europeans and go out of our way to be the first to implement everything that comes from there

Our politicians seemed always keen to be seen in a good light in Brussels and from a short stint I worked there, the most of our gang appeared embarrassed to be the Irish politicians, from that small nation at the edge that only has a small population and says no ocassionally.

We have never been given credit really for all the things we said yes to, but as our politicians keep reminding us, we are only 4 odd million out of 500m

I don't blame Europe for everything, I blame our poor political representation there

K-9

K-9 wrote: »

That reliefs and low tax rates have been part of our CT rate for years? I thought it was pretty obvious, see link below:



Not from here it hasn't, though if you've a better source?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_tax_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Se.C3.A1n_Lemass_and_after



No major objection myself and I've assumed nothing. I think we need proof that raising it will do no damage. A few sources who've researched it would be good though.

Year Corporation Tax Total Tax Revenue Total Revenue Reference
2001 4.16 27.93 28.74 [3] (restated)
2002 4.80 29.29 31.53 [4]
2003 5.16 32.10 33.16 [5]
2004 5.33 35.58 36.38 [6]
2005 5.49 39.25 39.85 [7]
2006 6.68 45.54 46.14 [8]
2007 6.39 47.25 47.89 [9]
2008 5.07 40.78 41.62 [10]
2009 3.90 33.04 33.88 [11]



Who's to say we can't squeeze another few percent out of the corporation tax? What it would require is thorough research into costs attributed to any large company that might be tempted to leave due to a higher rate of tax. Once a mean price is found where the average cost of leaving is more than the average cost of staying I'm sure we would be left with something extra for the state coffers.

Of course to do this we would probably need a team of economists and accountants with a few layers of middle management thrown in for the craic

HivemindXX

mistermouse wrote: »

Ireland I feel has always pandered to Europe, more so than other nations and still does. We always want to be seen more European than the Europeans and go out of our way to be the first to implement everything that comes from there

Can you give some examples because my impression was that the opposite was true. We drag our feet massively and beg for exemptions for things like VRT.

Laois_Man

wiseguy wrote: »

How long do you think the Phizers, Googles and Intels of this island would stick around once corporation tax is raised (erm "harmonized") and loophole which they use to move their profits offshore is closed by the new European club (whatever it will be called).

Honest question, do reply.

Why would they want to leave?
People seem to think they're gonna run off to places like France.
Why would they? If corpration tax is harmonized, it means France have a rate the exact same as ours!

People ignore the other advantages we bring to the table over countries like France for FDI from the US. Eg, we have a lesser time difference with the US, English is our spoken language and we have huge technical expertise from all over the world already assembled. It costs a lot of money to re-establish and, especially in the technological sector, you lose a hell of a lot of company specific technical knowledge

Again, I don't buy into any of this bull**** about the 12.5% corp tax being the ONLY reason so many muli nationals are in Ireland. Especially since our corp tax rate is actually 25% for non-trading income, passive income or foreign trading income!

murphaph

mistermouse wrote: »

Ireland I feel has always pandered to Europe, more so than other nations and still does. We always want to be seen more European than the Europeans and go out of our way to be the first to implement everything that comes from there

This is quite far from reality. Ireland is often fined for not implementing this or that directive in time. The whole septic tank business is another long ignored EU directive that's having to be implemented in a rushed manner now.

Ironically the British are amongst the quickest to implement the various EU directives in their national legislation

wiseguy

Laois_Man wrote: »

Why would they want to leave?
People seem to think they're gonna run off to places like France.
Why would they? If corpration tax is harmonized, it means France have a rate the exact same as ours!

People ignore the other advantages we bring to the table over countries like France for FDI from the US. Eg, we have a lesser time difference with the US, English is our spoken language and we have huge technical expertise from all over the world already assembled. It costs a lot of money to re-establish and, especially in the technological sector, you lose a hell of a lot of company specific technical knowledge

Again, I don't buy into any of this bull**** about the 12.5% corp tax being the ONLY reason so many muli nationals are in Ireland. Especially since our corp tax rate is actually 25% for non-trading income, passive income or foreign trading income!

Erm let me spell it out for you

Lets say corpo tax is same here as rest of EU, then it stops being a variable
and companies start paying attention to other variables such as high labour costs in Ireland, high energy costs, redtape, lack of talent and being farther away from core markets due to our location.

Take Dell, they moved their manufacturing despite the low corpo rate due to lower wages elsewhere in EU, but some part of their operations remained in Dublin keeping people employed due to the low rate. Once this only advantage that this economy has is pissed away, then companies like this will move altogether leading to more job losses.

And btw its not just the corporate rate thats important but the loopholes which allow the likes of Google to operate here, otherwise they would remain in London or US or continent.

Doc Ruby

Technically the only thing we really need from Europe is access to the single market. The euro is pretty handy too, but we were doing alright without it. The rest, well if it vanished tomorrow we'd still keep ticking over.

wiseguy

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Technically the only thing we really need from Europe is access to the single market. The euro is pretty handy too, but we were doing alright without it. The rest, well if it vanished tomorrow we'd still keep ticking over.

Well said and despite any threats from Merokozy lets remember that they can not kick us out of the single market (never mind the euro) no matter how much they would like to, since it would mean the collapse of the EU and the euro which would be as bad if not worse for them.

Laois_Man

wiseguy wrote: »

Erm let me spell it out for you

Lets say corpo tax is same here as rest of EU, then it stops being a variable
and companies start paying attention to other variables such as high labour costs in Ireland, high energy costs, redtape, lack of talent and being farther away from core markets due to our location.

Take Dell, they moved their manufacturing despite the low corpo rate due to lower wages elsewhere in EU, but some part of their operations remained in Dublin keeping people employed due to the low rate. Once this only advantage that this economy has is pissed away, then companies like this will move altogether leading to more job losses.

And btw its not just the corporate rate thats important but the loopholes which allow the likes of Google to operate here, otherwise they would remain in London or US or continent.

But those variables you meantion are really applicable most in manufacturing which has been screwed here long before now anyway! The vast majority of these multi nationals who we are so afriad of losing here in the IT sector! IT doesn't rely on a rail network, huge energy resources and a Software Engineer in France costs MORE to hire than it does here (although the more senior levels are more expensive here but isn't a huge difference on either side)

http://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Country=Ireland/Salary

http://www.payscale.com/research/FR/Country=France/Salary

wiseguy

Laois_Man wrote: »

But those variables you meantion are really applicable most in manufacturing which has been screwed here long before now anyway! The vast majority of these multi nationals who we are so afriad of losing here in the IT sector! IT doesn't rely on a rail network, huge energy resources and a Software Engineer in France costs MORE to hire than it does here (although the more senior levels are more expensive here but isn't a huge difference on either side)

http://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Country=Ireland/Salary

http://www.payscale.com/research/FR/Country=France/Salary

It is not just the IT sector, 30,000 people work in IFSC where financial transaction tax would affect them more than corporation rate||loophole changes with jobs going to London or back to US.

But if you want to discuss the IT sector {of which I am part of} then I have seen datacenters in France that make datacenters in Ireland look like Mickey Mouse operations, their electricity is also 2x cheaper {thanks to nuclear}
While in Netherlands has even better datacenters and world class connectivity with largest internet exchanges! Where quality bandwidth is 10x cheaper than here. We are already loosing jobs to these places, or take Cyprus with its 10% corporation rate and much simpler tax system where alot of Gaming and Gambling companies have moved||based.
Continuing on the subject of IT, Eastern Europe is a great threat, I have seen some incredibly bright guys from Romania and Bulgaria, and in the last year have seen and used colocation services that are much cheaper than Ireland with better support (24x7!), in English too and better connectivity.

BTW my own company has already moved most of its operations out of Ireland due to this place being a cesspit that is getting nastier.

323

hmmm wrote: »

Why are we even debating this point? Of course we wouldn't have a tenth of the FDI if we were not part of the EU - the only reason they are here is because they can access EU markets.

If we were on our own, do you think Intel would have set up a plant to sell into the Irish market only?

Yes they would still have come here if we were on our own.
One of the main reasons Intel and the various technology outfits (worked for one of them for a time) came here was that we were the only nation in the western world exporting good engineering/technical graduates.
We had a good education system, English speaking and a huge surplus of good science/engineering graduates to pull from, this did not exist anywhere else at the time.
Unfortunatly no longer the case.

kippy

323 wrote: »

Yes they would still have come here if we were on our own.
One of the main reasons Intel and the various technology outfits (worked for one of them for a time) came here was that we were the only nation in the western world exporting good engineering/technical graduates.
We had a good education system, English speaking and a huge surplus of good science/engineering graduates to pull from, this did not exist anywhere else at the time.
Unfortunatly no longer the case.

And I wonder where the country got the money/policies to be able to put all these students through college/university......nothing to do with EU membership?
While that MAY have been a reason, I do believe being a member of the EU with access to that market was the major one and almost any other reason you can find for them coming here, could plausibly be as a direct or indirect result of EU membership.

Just as an aside,
something which might assist those those who think joining/remaining in the eurozone is a bad idea:
http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/ireland_in_the_eu/impact_of_membership_on_ireland/index_en.htm

Godge

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

A prime example of the way the corporation tax issue has been sold to the us. Our corporate tax rate of 12.5% has only been in effect since 2003. Before that I believe it was something like 32%. We were doing fine when it was 32%.

Why is this such an issue with us as a country? That, in my opinion, is the most important question.

Oh dear.

Prior to 2003 (or whenever it changed), we had a corporation tax regime that taxed foreign multinational manufacturing exports at 10%, while the general corporation tax regime for profits made in the Irish market or on international services was 32%. The EU told us that this regime was illegal so we changed the rate for trading profits to 12.5% and non-trading profits to 25%. (It is slightly more complicated than that and the Wikipedia entry below is not entirely correct but that is the main gist of it)

So for the likes of Intel, the tax rate went from 10% to 12.5%. As a result corporation tax revenue increased from 2003 to 2007, despite the cut from 32% to 12.5% for other categories of profits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_tax_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

A simple google search would have given you that information.

Godge

Laois_Man wrote: »

But those variables you meantion are really applicable most in manufacturing which has been screwed here long before now anyway! The vast majority of these multi nationals who we are so afriad of losing here in the IT sector! IT doesn't rely on a rail network, huge energy resources and a Software Engineer in France costs MORE to hire than it does here (although the more senior levels are more expensive here but isn't a huge difference on either side)

http://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Country=Ireland/Salary

http://www.payscale.com/research/FR/Country=France/Salary

Now maybe I am ignorant and stupid, but I thought the greatest contribution to our exports was being made by manufacturing pharmaceutical products for export?

Nothingbetter2d

kippy wrote: »

it has been member of the EU/EC/EEC/EUROPE or whatever you want to call it.

cant we just call it the United States of Germany from now on :rolleyes:

kippy

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

cant we just call it the United States of Germany from now on :rolleyes:

No, because that's not accurate in any way, shape or form.

Godge

Godge wrote: »

Oh dear.

Prior to 2003 (or whenever it changed), we had a corporation tax regime that taxed foreign multinational manufacturing exports at 10%, while the general corporation tax regime for profits made in the Irish market or on international services was 32%. The EU told us that this regime was illegal so we changed the rate for trading profits to 12.5% and non-trading profits to 25%. (It is slightly more complicated than that and the Wikipedia entry below is not entirely correct but that is the main gist of it)

So for the likes of Intel, the tax rate went from 10% to 12.5%. As a result corporation tax revenue increased from 2003 to 2007, despite the cut from 32% to 12.5% for other categories of profits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_tax_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

A simple google search would have given you that information.

Ah, I stand corrected. I was understanding things in the French sense of (not understanding things) taking the initial rate of taxation at face value. How embarrassing :P

Rookie mistake, I'll blame it on exams!

K-9

Godge wrote: »

Oh dear.

Prior to 2003 (or whenever it changed), we had a corporation tax regime that taxed foreign multinational manufacturing exports at 10%, while the general corporation tax regime for profits made in the Irish market or on international services was 32%. The EU told us that this regime was illegal so we changed the rate for trading profits to 12.5% and non-trading profits to 25%. (It is slightly more complicated than that and the Wikipedia entry below is not entirely correct but that is the main gist of it)

So for the likes of Intel, the tax rate went from 10% to 12.5%. As a result corporation tax revenue increased from 2003 to 2007, despite the cut from 32% to 12.5% for other categories of profits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_tax_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

A simple google search would have given you that information.

The Corporation tax rate was gradually reduced over about 4/5 years from memory and I think the IFSC relief might have lasted until a couple of years ago. In many ways those reliefs have been replaced by easier tax regulations instead, which is what the CCTB is getting at and why its a threat to Ireland.

Fromthetrees

Since we entered the EEC, Ireland has had a net return of €41 billion, this is clearly an advantage.

Total foreign bank exposure to Ireland’s economy is $844bn, or five times the value of Ireland’s GDP or economic output. Of that, German and UK banks are Ireland’s biggest creditors, with €206bn and €224bn of exposure respectively.

To put it another way, German and British banks on their own have each extended credit to Ireland greater than Irish GDP. Which doesn’t sound altogether prudent, does it?

As for direct bank-to-bank lending, overseas banks have provided Ireland’s banks with €169bn of loans, which is also greater than Irish GDP.

If our European 'partners' don't share the (is it?) 70 billion worth of debt being put on Irish taxpayers than I will no longer believe Europe has Ireland's best interests at heart.

K-9

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Since we entered the EEC, Ireland has had a net return of €41 billion, this is clearly an advantage.



If our European 'partners' don't share the (is it?) 70 billion worth of debt being put on Irish taxpayers than I will no longer believe Europe has Ireland's best interests at heart.

We also have big opportunities for exports, particularly multi nationals, people forget that, plus our tax rate makes us attractive because we are in the EU and Euro.

hmmm

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Since we entered the EEC, Ireland has had a net return of €41 billion, this is clearly an advantage.

Where do you get this 41 billion figure?

Ireland's economy (about 100 billion a year) is largely based on access to EU markets.

Fromthetrees

hmmm wrote: »

Where do you get this 41 billion figure?

Ireland's economy (about 100 billion a year) is largely based on access to EU markets.

I read it somewhere a few months ago, did a quick google there and found this article from 2004 stating it was 34 billion.

Germany has been the leading contributor to Ireland's net receipts of €34 billion since joining the then European Community in 1973-the amount would be considerably higher if stated in current money values. I accept it's actually higher.
http://www.finfacts.ie/comment/irelandeunetreceiptsbenefits.htm
I don't think anyone would want to halt access to the EU, that would be madness, it's not my point. The European Free Trade Association I think would be a far better route to go down in my opinion. I don't want to be in a United States of Europe, we'd be the equivalent of Leitrim County Council the more we integrate with Europe. We don't need the euro, we need to be able to control our own interest rates, we need to keep our corporation tax rate and Sarkozy shouldn't even have an opinion on it, deciding our own foreign policy ect. The road we're going down to me seems to end with the EU having more control than the people we elect. Our politicians are generally inept but at least they're accountable to the people, Eurocrats are not.

hmmm

Fromthetrees wrote: »

I read it somewhere a few months ago, did a quick google there and found this article from 2004 stating it was 34 billion.

Germany has been the leading contributor to Ireland's net receipts of €34 billion since joining the then European Community in 1973-the amount would be considerably higher if stated in current money values. I accept it's actually higher.
http://www.finfacts.ie/comment/irelandeunetreceiptsbenefits.htm

That's purely the amount of EU structural funds (and I guess CAP funds) that have been received by Ireland. Those have been invested in roads, education & farmers pockets. The benefits of access to EU markets however vastly outnumber this figure.

The European Free Trade Association I think would be a far better route to go down in my opinion.

The three big implications of EFTA membership for Ireland would be:
i) We would no longer receive funds from Europe and would have to pay for access to EU markets.
ii) We would have to apply most EU regulations as a condition of access and would have no means of influencing those regulations."This situation has been described as a “fax democracy”, with Norway waiting for their latest legislation to be faxed from the Commission." * Europe could for example very easily deem our corporation tax rate unfair competition and ban access to their markets.
iii) Why would a multinational choose to invest in Ireland when it could invest in a full EU member? If someone like Intel is planning a 20 year investment, are they going to choose a country which has a reputation for capricious decision making.

The only way to protect our corporation tax and standard of living is by being at the decision making table and by creating alliances. That can only occur within the EU, and probably, within the Eurozone.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

Dob74

Joining the euro was or biggest mistake.
Of the class of 73 Denamrk and the UK had the sence to stay out.
We do not belong with the Germans and French, we should stay closer to the Brits and Yanks.