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Disadvantages to Ireland of EU Membership

  • 10-12-2011 03:11AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭


    Everyone keeps ramming down our throats all the fantastic things that joining the EEC did for Ireland over the last 40 years.

    There's also disadvantages of joining, or more specifically,staying!

    The most obvious of these is how Europe robbed our fishing industry. I read a "fact" recently that throughout our membership, Europe has taken more money from Irish fishing than what we've been given in grants. In my opinion this is probably a scewed statistic in many ways but there's still no denying that being in Europe hasn't been great for our fishermen.

    Of course there's also the fact that having our own currency would give us the flexibility to set our own interest rates or devalue as we see fit (after we get on our feet after X amount of time).

    What other disadvantages has there been that could be exploited and turned around to our advantage in the event of us dropping out of the Eurozone and in theory\hypothetically, the EU itself that could help negate the loss of all the good things EU membership does for us that we hear so much about? Surely we're in a FAR better position now to grab our opportunities than we were at the start of the 1970's!


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,593 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Not being able to set our own interest rates is/was a huge disadvantage, could have kept them higher to put a break on the sky rocketing property prices (by making mortages etc more expensive) and maybe the current mess would not be so bad...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭McTigs


    i don't think it was so much the interest rates the banks were charging as the sheer amounts they were lending.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,226 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Not being able to set our own interest rates is/was a huge disadvantage, could have kept them higher to put a break on the sky rocketing property prices (by making mortages etc more expensive) and maybe the current mess would not be so bad...

    That has got nothing to do with EU membership. Euro (currency) membership yes, but not EU membership.

    It's easy talking now about the disadvantages of membership but overall Ireland has improved greatly in the years it has been member of the EU/EC/EEC/EUROPE or whatever you want to call it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    Not being able to set our own interest rates is/was a huge disadvantage, could have kept them higher to put a break on the sky rocketing property prices (by making mortages etc more expensive) and maybe the current mess would not be so bad...

    They could have.. but they wouldn't have.

    The Government made no attempt to cool the market, in fact through continued tax breaks and incentives they continued to try and further stimulate the housing market further right up till the end. This was our economic "miracle"......


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,203 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    The most obvious of these is how Europe robbed our fishing industry. I read a "fact" recently that throughout our membership, Europe has taken more money from Irish fishing than what we've been given in grants. In my opinion this is probably a scewed statistic in many ways but there's still no denying that being in Europe hasn't been great for our fishermen
    Was there some massive Irish fishing industry pre EU days? Of course not.

    Instead of Intel, Google software engineers and Pharma employees we'd have an economy based on us all catching fish? I don't think so.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    kippy wrote: »
    It's easy talking now about the disadvantages of membership but overall Ireland has improved greatly in the years it has been member of the EU/EC/EEC/EUROPE or whatever you want to call it.

    It has improved greatly while we've been in it. That doesn't mean all or even most of our improvement has been because of it! Surely the biggest improvement was due to the drop in corporation tax in the 90's which had nothing to do with us being in Europe. I was very young, but to the best of my recollection, we weren't at all well off in the 80's and thru the early 90's. We were miserable infact up to when we took that massive bribe for signing up to the Maastricht treaty. And look how that's turned out!

    A point of the thread that is being missed is, nobody ever talks about how NOT being in the EU in the future could be of benefit to us! What benefit's could be foreseen?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    hmmm wrote: »
    Was there some massive Irish fishing industry pre EU days? Of course not.

    Instead of Intel, Google software engineers and Pharma employees we'd have an economy based on us all catching fish? I don't think so.

    Flaw 1. You appear to be giving credit to the EU for our attracting of technology investment. What did that have to do with EU? See above

    Flaw 2. You appear to be comparing the business acumen of Ireland to that of the 1960's as if it were like for like. Your assumption being that we'd have made NO progress without Europe.

    Flaw 3. You're ignoring the taxation\Licence policies we could have introduced in the last 40 years where Spainish trawlers would have been paying US!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 669 ✭✭✭whatstherush


    Laois_Man you know that 'fact' you mentioned reading in your first post about the fishy's, why don't provide a link to back it up?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    hmmm wrote: »
    Was there some massive Irish fishing industry pre EU days? Of course not.

    Instead of Intel, Google software engineers and Pharma employees we'd have an economy based on us all catching fish? I don't think so.
    Laois_Man you know that 'fact' you mentioned reading in your first post about the fishy's, why don't provide a link to back it up?

    2 reasons.

    1. I don't know where I saw it. It could even have been on here or on Politics.ie

    2. I am willing to, and already have discredited this statistic myself as being "scewed". I believe it's probably estimating the entire value of fish taken out of Irish waters by foreign vessels and counting it as if Central Europe was getting all of it and using that figure to compare to what Europe has given to us.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    Welease wrote: »
    They could have.. but they wouldn't have.

    The Government made no attempt to cool the market, in fact through continued tax breaks and incentives they continued to try and further stimulate the housing market further right up till the end. This was our economic "miracle"......

    It's a shame most people can't seem to grasp this most basic point. Furthermore, does anyone seriously think ahern and cowen would be upping interest rates for the good of the country?


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Depending on one's PoV, alot of equality legislation in Ireland was necessiated by membership of the EU. This effected pay, conditions etc for numerous workers. If this was disadvantageous in a monitory sense depends on taking the long/short term view of the economy.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    It has improved greatly while we've been in it. That doesn't mean all or even most of our improvement has been because of it! Surely the biggest improvement was due to the drop in corporation tax in the 90's which had nothing to do with us being in Europe. I was very young, but to the best of my recollection, we weren't at all well off in the 80's and thru the early 90's. We were miserable infact up to when we took that massive bribe for signing up to the Maastricht treaty. And look how that's turned out!

    A point of the thread that is being missed is, nobody ever talks about how NOT being in the EU in the future could be of benefit to us! What benefit's could be foreseen?


    A prime example of the way the corporation tax issue has been sold to the us. Our corporate tax rate of 12.5% has only been in effect since 2003. Before that I believe it was something like 32%. We were doing fine when it was 32%.

    Why is this such an issue with us as a country? That, in my opinion, is the most important question.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,226 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    It has improved greatly while we've been in it. That doesn't mean all or even most of our improvement has been because of it! Surely the biggest improvement was due to the drop in corporation tax in the 90's which had nothing to do with us being in Europe. I was very young, but to the best of my recollection, we weren't at all well off in the 80's and thru the early 90's. We were miserable infact up to when we took that massive bribe for signing up to the Maastricht treaty. And look how that's turned out!

    A point of the thread that is being missed is, nobody ever talks about how NOT being in the EU in the future could be of benefit to us! What benefit's could be foreseen?
    Fair point, however one has to wonder would that FDI have located here were we not members of the EU?
    Perhaps we would not have been able to drop corporation tax were we not members and receiving grants for everything else?
    Very hard to actually answer those questions and indeed almost any other question you could pose in a similiar manner about the past 40 years.
    And again, very difficult to answer what could happen in the future were we to leave the party as well. We still owe billions, leaving the Euro/Europe doesn't change that.
    In fact there is far more uncertainty attached to leaving the group than remaining in it, and that is saying a lot.....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,203 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    kippy wrote: »
    Fair point, however one has to wonder would that FDI have located here were we not members of the EU?
    Why are we even debating this point? Of course we wouldn't have a tenth of the FDI if we were not part of the EU - the only reason they are here is because they can access EU markets.

    If we were on our own, do you think Intel would have set up a plant to sell into the Irish market only? Ireland would have had to negotiate access to EU markets, so we'd have ended up paying tariffs to get access, and then having to implement EU regulations anyway without having any say on them.

    I don't want to become a fisherman, I'd rather stay within the EU. This obsession with fish would be laughable if people didn't take it so seriously. "What has the EU ever done for us, well, other than access to the largest market in the world, the ability to attract massive FDI, the help to move our economy away from farming, equality laws, environmental cleanup, massive infrastructural investment to help us develop, massive investment in education to assist us to build a 3rd level sector, huge subsidies to our farming population.

    That's all very well, but they took our fish and our right to all become fishermen!!"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,817 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    Flaw 3. You're ignoring the taxation\Licence policies we could have introduced in the last 40 years where Spainish trawlers would have been paying US!

    Why should they have paid us a penny, they could just come in and taken the fish at will, and theres not a lot our 'Navy' could have done to prevent it. The odd arrest here or there obviously, but the odds would definitely have favoured the Spanish fisherman.

    Though I suppose we could always have protested using our position within the European Uni..... oh wait.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,203 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Why should they have paid us a penny, they could just come in and taken the fish at will, and theres not a lot our 'Navy' could have done to prevent it. The odd arrest here or there obviously, but the odds would definitely have favoured the Spanish fisherman.

    Though I suppose we could always have protested using our position within the European Uni..... oh wait.
    Not to forget this
    http://www.military.ie/naval-service/history
    In 1972 LE Deirdre (P20) was commissioned into service. She was the first of four new ships to be built in the 1972 - 1980 period. After LE Deirdre followed LE Emer (1978), LE Aoife (1979), LE Aisling (1980). The funding for these ships came from the EU after the Irish Exclusive Fishery Zone was extended from 12 miles out to 200 miles in 1976. This left the Naval Service with four modern and well equipped warships to add to the fleet to aid it in conducting it’s operational requirements.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    hmmm wrote: »
    Why are we even debating this point? Of course we wouldn't have a tenth of the FDI if we were not part of the EU - the only reason they are here is because they can access EU markets.

    If we were on our own, do you think Intel would have set up a plant to sell into the Irish market only? Ireland would have had to negotiate access to EU markets, so we'd have ended up paying tariffs to get access, and then having to implement EU regulations anyway without having any say on them.

    I don't want to become a fisherman, I'd rather stay within the EU. This obsession with fish would be laughable if people didn't take it so seriously. "What has the EU ever done for us, well, other than access to the largest market in the world, the ability to attract massive FDI, the help to move our economy aaway from farming, equality laws, environmental cleanup, massive infrastructural investment to help us develop, massive investment in education to assist us to build a 3rd level sector, huge subsidies to our farming population.

    That's all very well, but they took our fish and our right to all become fishermen!!"

    I work for am American corporation in Ireland who had NO interest in access to the EU markets as a motive to set up here!


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,507 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    Everyone keeps ramming down our throats all the fantastic things that joining the EEC did for Ireland over the last 40 years.

    There's also disadvantages of joining, or more specifically,staying!

    The most obvious of these is how Europe robbed our fishing industry. I read a "fact" recently that throughout our membership, Europe has taken more money from Irish fishing than what we've been given in grants. In my opinion this is probably a scewed statistic in many ways but there's still no denying that being in Europe hasn't been great for our fishermen.

    Of course there's also the fact that having our own currency would give us the flexibility to set our own interest rates or devalue as we see fit (after we get on our feet after X amount of time).

    What other disadvantages has there been that could be exploited and turned around to our advantage in the event of us dropping out of the Eurozone and in theory\hypothetically, the EU itself that could help negate the loss of all the good things EU membership does for us that we hear so much about? Surely we're in a FAR better position now to grab our opportunities than we were at the start of the 1970's!
    The value of fish taken out of Irish waters from 1950-2004 is approximately €12bn at current exchange rates. Of that, €3.5 billion worth approximately was taken before Ireland joined the EU and the remaining €8.5bn between 1974 and 2004. Of the €12bn, Irish boats have taken approximately 25% or €3bn. The total value of the catch has risen since Ireland joined the EU and Ireland has been amongst the prime beneficiaries from the increased catch (see Fig 1)
    “In truth, Irish boats have been taking an increasing share of the fish caught in Irish waters. And this share increased significantly from 9.8% in the 1960s to 23.7% in the 1980s and to more than 25.7% between 2000 and 2004.”
    More details here. In short it is another "Shell to sea" story you've been sold; a small group of people who's interest it is to blow things up with out facts...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    A prime example of the way the corporation tax issue has been sold to the us. Our corporate tax rate of 12.5% has only been in effect since 2003. Before that I believe it was something like 32%. We were doing fine when it was 32%.

    Why is this such an issue with us as a country? That, in my opinion, is the most important question.

    We had things like manufacturing and the IFSC relief before that, low tax breaks were always an important part of Corporation tax policy. In many way our lax tax laws are as important as the rate now as they've replaced the tax reliefs.
    Nody wrote: »
    More details here. In short it is another "Shell to sea" story you've been sold; a small group of people who's interest it is to blow things up with out facts...

    Our share had actually gone up but them non EU Norwegians keep stealing our fish. We also fish a lot in British waters.

    dnc-vl04c4qk.png?634591097656083842

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    K-9 wrote: »
    We had things like manufacturing and the IFSC relief before that, low tax breaks were always an important part of Corporation tax policy. In many way our lax tax laws are as important as the rate now as they've replaced the tax reliefs.

    But can this be backed up with proof? We're now taking in less money through corporation tax than we were when the new rate of 12.5% came in.

    What are you basing your assumptions on. I would argue that corporation tax rates could be lower than necessary and if we could squeeze a few percent out of them then we most certainly should.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    But can this be backed up with proof?

    That reliefs and low tax rates have been part of our CT rate for years? I thought it was pretty obvious, see link below:
    We're now taking in less money through corporation tax than we were when the new rate of 12.5% came in.

    Not from here it hasn't, though if you've a better source?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_tax_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Se.C3.A1n_Lemass_and_after
    What are you basing your assumptions on. I would argue that corporation tax rates could be lower than necessary and if we could squeeze a few percent out of them then we most certainly should.

    No major objection myself and I've assumed nothing. I think we need proof that raising it will do no damage. A few sources who've researched it would be good though.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,226 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    hmmm wrote: »
    Why are we even debating this point? Of course we wouldn't have a tenth of the FDI if we were not part of the EU - the only reason they are here is because they can access EU markets.

    If we were on our own, do you think Intel would have set up a plant to sell into the Irish market only? Ireland would have had to negotiate access to EU markets, so we'd have ended up paying tariffs to get access, and then having to implement EU regulations anyway without having any say on them.

    I don't want to become a fisherman, I'd rather stay within the EU. This obsession with fish would be laughable if people didn't take it so seriously. "What has the EU ever done for us, well, other than access to the largest market in the world, the ability to attract massive FDI, the help to move our economy away from farming, equality laws, environmental cleanup, massive infrastructural investment to help us develop, massive investment in education to assist us to build a 3rd level sector, huge subsidies to our farming population.

    That's all very well, but they took our fish and our right to all become fishermen!!"
    I am debating the point as it was brought up by a poster. I agree fully with what you were saying and mentioned it purely to highlight that the argument was impossible to back up.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭wiseguy


    hmmm wrote: »
    Was there some massive Irish fishing industry pre EU days? Of course not.

    Instead of Intel, Google software engineers and Pharma employees we'd have an economy based on us all catching fish? I don't think so.

    How long do you think the Phizers, Googles and Intels of this island would stick around once corporation tax is raised (erm "harmonized") and loophole which they use to move their profits offshore is closed by the new European club (whatever it will be called).

    Honest question, do reply.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,846 ✭✭✭Fromthetrees


    Robert Schuman declared that a supranational community would make war ‘not only unthinkable but materially impossible'. This was one of the principle reasons for the founding of the European Coal and Steel Community.

    What we will end with is a United States of Europe. Is that what people want?

    Ireland has benefited exponentially from being members of the European Union, we would probably be a nation of less than a million farmers subsisting out a living, a century behind the rest of Europe without being involved.

    The problem for me though is why can't we have the good parts of Europe, free trade, movement of people, equality laws ect. without being in a United States of Europe. For example, in the Unites States of America the money is drawn to the major economic centres, the north east and to California. In my opinion being a peripheral economy without sovereignty/control over key areas such as interest rates has been a major disadvantage, a lot of people accept that not being able to devalue our currency has been a disadvantage, losing our corporation tax rate would put us at a disadvantage, how long can we actually keep it?

    Having a single currency without complete fiscal union is impossible, so, we hand over all our economic sovereignty to people we don't elect, how exactly can we hold them to account?

    Finally, the day before we joined the European Economic Community in 1973 we were a completely independent nation (albeit a bit backward but that's not my point) free to do as we please economically, socially ect. How does the European project finish for Ireland? Will it be any major decisions are made by unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels on our behalf, will our income tax rates be set by them, can a nameless official in an office in Frankfurt decide to cut the dole in half with the flick of the pen? The European Union is essentially quite undemocratic, we have a hard enough time holding our own elected officials to account, how can we hold people to account that we can't see but hold so much power? These bureaucrats work for the greater good of Europe as a whole, not for Ireland.

    I'm pro Europe but I have grave misgivings about the whole thing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Robert Schuman declared that a supranational community would make war ‘not only unthinkable but materially impossible'. This was one of the principle reasons for the founding of the European Coal and Steel Community.

    What we will end with is a United States of Europe.

    How do you know? The member states are free to abolish the European Union in the morning if they so wish, so how can anyone state how the European Union will look in 10 years time much less in 100 years time?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,846 ✭✭✭Fromthetrees


    View wrote: »
    How do you know? The member states are free to abolish the European Union in the morning if they so wish, so how can anyone state how the European Union will look in 10 years time much less in 100 years time?

    The purpose of the United States of America is........'to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.' In essence, the fundamental purpose is to assure the integrity and vitality of our free society, which is founded upon the dignity and worth of the individual.


    The purpose of the European Union is...........to promote economic and social progress and a high level of employment and to achieve balanced and sustainable development, in particular through the creation of an area without internal frontiers, through the strengthening of economic and social cohesion and through the establishment of economic and monetary union, ultimately including a single currency in accordance with the provisions of this Treaty,
    to assert its identity on the international scene, in particular through the implementation of a common foreign and security policy including the progressive framing of a common defence policy, which might lead to a common defence, in accordance with the provisions of Article 17

    Both unions have broadly the same aims and goals. The goal of many people in Europe is a federation of the different countries, funnily enough this is what Libertas leader Declan Ganley advocates yet he was against the Lisbon treaty.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 323 ✭✭mistermouse


    Fundamentaly the European project is a good idea. The Euro as it is probably isn't.

    The problem with Europe that existed long before any crisis is its bureaucasy and the level of accountability.

    Ireland I feel has always pandered to Europe, more so than other nations and still does. We always want to be seen more European than the Europeans and go out of our way to be the first to implement everything that comes from there

    Our politicians seemed always keen to be seen in a good light in Brussels and from a short stint I worked there, the most of our gang appeared embarrassed to be the Irish politicians, from that small nation at the edge that only has a small population and says no ocassionally.

    We have never been given credit really for all the things we said yes to, but as our politicians keep reminding us, we are only 4 odd million out of 500m

    I don't blame Europe for everything, I blame our poor political representation there


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    K-9 wrote: »
    That reliefs and low tax rates have been part of our CT rate for years? I thought it was pretty obvious, see link below:



    Not from here it hasn't, though if you've a better source?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_tax_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Se.C3.A1n_Lemass_and_after



    No major objection myself and I've assumed nothing. I think we need proof that raising it will do no damage. A few sources who've researched it would be good though.

    Year Corporation Tax Total Tax Revenue Total Revenue Reference
    2001 4.16 27.93 28.74 [3] (restated)
    2002 4.80 29.29 31.53 [4]

    2003 5.16 32.10 33.16 [5]
    2004 5.33 35.58 36.38 [6]
    2005 5.49 39.25 39.85 [7]
    2006 6.68 45.54 46.14 [8]
    2007 6.39 47.25 47.89 [9]
    2008 5.07 40.78 41.62 [10]
    2009 3.90 33.04 33.88 [11]



    Who's to say we can't squeeze another few percent out of the corporation tax? What it would require is thorough research into costs attributed to any large company that might be tempted to leave due to a higher rate of tax. Once a mean price is found where the average cost of leaving is more than the average cost of staying I'm sure we would be left with something extra for the state coffers.

    Of course to do this we would probably need a team of economists and accountants with a few layers of middle management thrown in for the craic ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭HivemindXX


    Ireland I feel has always pandered to Europe, more so than other nations and still does. We always want to be seen more European than the Europeans and go out of our way to be the first to implement everything that comes from there

    Can you give some examples because my impression was that the opposite was true. We drag our feet massively and beg for exemptions for things like VRT.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    wiseguy wrote: »
    How long do you think the Phizers, Googles and Intels of this island would stick around once corporation tax is raised (erm "harmonized") and loophole which they use to move their profits offshore is closed by the new European club (whatever it will be called).

    Honest question, do reply.

    Why would they want to leave?
    People seem to think they're gonna run off to places like France.
    Why would they? If corpration tax is harmonized, it means France have a rate the exact same as ours!

    People ignore the other advantages we bring to the table over countries like France for FDI from the US. Eg, we have a lesser time difference with the US, English is our spoken language and we have huge technical expertise from all over the world already assembled. It costs a lot of money to re-establish and, especially in the technological sector, you lose a hell of a lot of company specific technical knowledge

    Again, I don't buy into any of this bull**** about the 12.5% corp tax being the ONLY reason so many muli nationals are in Ireland. Especially since our corp tax rate is actually 25% for non-trading income, passive income or foreign trading income!


This discussion has been closed.
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