Stopping at traffic lights in 3rd gear?

desdman

Is it ok in a test to stop in 3rd gear when your approaching a red light?,or do you have to go down through the gears as my recent driving instructor said to just stop in third gear,yet my previous instructor said you have to go down through the gears?.Does it make a difference in a test situation?
Any advice would be really appreciative.

challengemaster

Doesn't matter, as long as you're not coasting coming up to the lights it's fine. The reason for changing down the gears is, it allows you to prevent coasting as much as possible, and you're able to keep moving if the lights change as you're stopping easier than if you're in third.

If you're able to stop in 3rd without coasting and without the car complaining (about to stall, shuddering) then it's perfectly fine. You won't be marked down for either

ADIDriving

Best practice is to change down through the gears, coming off the clutch to complete each change. Perhaps you were given this advice when you were learning.
Your new instructor may be focusing on getting you to pass the test. So they are giving you the easier option, which is absolutely acceptable for the test and general driving. If you are driving in forth or fifth it is ok to skip down into second or third, come briefly of the clutch and then back down again before stopping. If you are driving in 1,2 or 3 you can stop in that gear.
Do make sure you complete any gear change by lifting the clutch to engage the new gear.

brian076

ADIDriving wrote: »

Best practice is to change down through the gears, coming off the clutch to complete each change. Perhaps you were given this advice when you were learning.

I'd have to disagree with you here, best practice is to stop in the gear that you're in, depressing the clutch about 1 to 1.5 car lengths from stopping, and not change down through the gears.I failed my first Advanced Driving Test for doing this.

In my experience pupils are more likely to incur faults coming down through the gears as more often than not they forget to come off the clutch, or come off it too quick or hold onto the gear lever through each gear change.

From a test point of view it doesn't matter what you do once it's done correctly but it's generally regarded that best practice is not to change down through the gears, unless it's necessary.

MascotDec85

ADIDriving wrote: »

Best practice is to change down through the gears, coming off the clutch to complete each change. Perhaps you were given this advice when you were learning.
Your new instructor may be focusing on getting you to pass the test. So they are giving you the easier option, which is absolutely acceptable for the test and general driving. If you are driving in forth or fifth it is ok to skip down into second or third, come briefly of the clutch and then back down again before stopping. If you are driving in 1,2 or 3 you can stop in that gear.
Do make sure you complete any gear change by lifting the clutch to engage the new gear.

brian076 wrote: »

I'd have to disagree with you here, best practice is to stop in the gear that you're in, depressing the clutch about 1 to 1.5 car lengths from stopping, and not change down through the gears.I failed my first Advanced Driving Test for doing this.

In my experience pupils are more likely to incur faults coming down through the gears as more often than not they forget to come off the clutch, or come off it too quick or hold onto the gear lever through each gear change.

From a test point of view it doesn't matter what you do once it's done correctly but it's generally regarded that best practice is not to change down through the gears, unless it's necessary.

I'd say it's personal preference tbh.

My own preference is to go down through the gears as it's how I was taught originally. It's also how I teach pupils. I think it helps particularly with pupils who present themselves (in plenty of time for a pretest) with a clutch problem.

Most pupils who have a clutch problem have little or no appreciation of what the clutch/gears will do for them. Taking time to correct the clutch misuse is vital, not just for the test but after it too.

I'd keep chipping away at them with "clutch up" between each change down until they get it on their own.

challengemaster

Just to throw a spanner in the works... opinions on using gears to slow down?

MascotDec85

challengemaster wrote: »

Just to throw a spanner in the works... opinions on using gears to slow down?

It depends on the situation tbh.

I often do it myself and get pupils to do it but the situation has to be right. The key is to be in the right gear for your speed.

Say driving uphill approaching a roundabout for example, slowing down on the approach it may be beneficial to ease off the gas, let the hill take the sting out of your speed and drop the car to 3rd and so on.

Approaching lights which change to red when you are a distance away, again it might be good to ease off the gas, drop to 3rd then 2nd trying to time it so that the lights change to green as you reach them or just before. If there is someone behind you this might not be the best idea.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with doing it as long as you don't change down too early and you release the clutch gently as you do to avoid jerking the car

brian076

challengemaster wrote: »

Just to throw a spanner in the works... opinions on using gears to slow down?

Have to admit that I still do this myself quite a lot as it's the way I was shown when learning to drive, but I think it's better to just stop in whatever gear you're in. As previously stated it doesn't really matter what you do once you do it right, where I have a problem is with instructors who insist that their way is the right way.

I had a pupil recently who was doing her test in another part of the country and when she went for a pre test there, the instructor told her that she had to change down through the gears and wouldn't accept that stopping in any gear was allowed.

If someone comes to me for a pre test and they're changing down through the gears correctly, I wouldn't even mention to them about stopping in any gear in case it confused them

Turpentine

challengemaster wrote: »

Just to throw a spanner in the works... opinions on using gears to slow down?

Put it this way: "price of new clutch" vs "price of new brake pads".

desdman wrote: »

Is it ok in a test to stop in 3rd gear when your approaching a red light?,or do you have to go down through the gears as my recent driving instructor said to just stop in third gear,yet my previous instructor said you have to go down through the gears?.Does it make a difference in a test situation?
Any advice would be really appreciative.

Stop in whatever gear you are driving in. Be prepared to change to 2nd (or 3rd if applicable) if the cars in front of you start moving before you have come to a stop.

Gears are there to help the car accelarate, that is all. Use your brakes otherwise.

Caddyvanman

"Gears are there to help the car accelarate, that is all. Use your brakes otherwise"

Turpentine, if thats what you think you have a LOT to learn.

You don't do much driving to make a statement like that !

Turpentine

Caddyvanman wrote: »

"Gears are there to help the car accelarate, that is all. Use your brakes otherwise"

Turpentine, if thats what you think you have a LOT to learn.

You don't do much driving to make a statement like that !

Tell me then, oh wise one, are you saying the gears are to be used instead of brakes? That's the context of what you quoted.

Alanstrainor

There is no right or wrong way, different scenarios will call for different approaches. If i was coming to a complete stop, i would be stopping in the gear I was in. If there was a chance I wouldn't have to stop, i'd slow down, change from 4th to 2nd and move off.

Caddyvanman wrote: »

"Gears are there to help the car accelarate, that is all. Use your brakes otherwise"

Turpentine, if thats what you think you have a LOT to learn.

You don't do much driving to make a statement like that !

That's all fair and well saying that, but how about backing that statement up.

Using the gears to slow a car can be important of course, but in general, gears to go, brakes to slow is a good mantra to live by.

Certain scenarios where using the gears to manage your speed makes sense, is in poor, slippery conditions, where excessive use of brakes might cause a skid. Or if you were coming down a steep hill, which would result in you riding your brakes the whole way down if you simply left the car in a high gear, which would result in brake fade. They're just a couple of examples.

Caddyvanman

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Using the gears to slow a car can be important of course, but in general, gears to go, brakes to slow is a good mantra to live by.

Certain scenarios where using the gears to manage your speed makes sense, is in poor, slippery conditions, where excessive use of brakes might cause a skid. Or if you were coming down a steep hill, which would result in you riding your brakes the whole way down if you simply left the car in a high gear, which would result in brake fade. They're just a couple of examples.

Well said, could not have put it better myself.

Alanstrainor

Caddyvanman wrote: »

Well said, could not have put it better myself.

Use the quote function man, its much easier for everyone else to read. I edited your post to include the quotes.

Caddyvanman

Will do,

Thanks.

ADIDriving

brian076 wrote: »

I'd have to disagree with you here, best practice is to stop in the gear that you're in, depressing the clutch about 1 to 1.5 car lengths from stopping, and not change down through the gears.I failed my first Advanced Driving Test for doing this.

I would have been criticised by the head of the DIR in the driving section of by exams to become a driving instructor for doing what you suggest. I assume you would advise against your normal method of stopping in snow, slippy roads, larger or heavily ladened vehicles, when towing trailers and on steep down hillls.

On the Caddy V's Turps section of this thread. Gas / Accelerator make the car go faster. Gears are used to allow the car to drive more efficiently and effectively at the higher speeds and therefor help the car accelerate. Brakes slow the car down, but a proper gear change can help the brakes to drive the car slower. If you get two parts of the car to work together the strain on any one part is reduced as the load is shared, eg. Leaving your car parked in gear and with the handbrake on. Each aspect can keep the car stationary but "two heads are better then one".
I have never owed a car that needed a new clutch. This includes a number of new driving school cars and my own car over the years that would have included a large people carrier and a fourteen year old kadet estate. I would have had lots of parts replaced in the various braking systems. Proper use of the clutch does not excessively damage it.

I would be interested if a truck or bus driver were to comment on this thread.

brian076

ADIDriving wrote: »

I would have been criticised by the head of the DIR in the driving section of by exams to become a driving instructor for doing what you suggest.

I doubt very much if you would. I deliberately stopped in the gear that I was in during my Stage 2 test, following my experience in my advanced driving test, and I certainly wasn't marked. But the Advanced Driving Tester who was an ex garda driver said that only in special circumstances, such as ice or snow should you change down, at all other times just stop in the gear that you're in.

I think stopping in buses and trucks is different and coming down through the gears is advised but the OP was worried about the driving test, and it's not a requirement, nor do I believe that it's best practice to come down through the gears when stopping. However as previously mentioned it depends on the circumstances, and if done correctly it's not a problem as far as the test is concerned.

I also remember during the driving tester training course, the Chief Driving Examiner who was conducting the course mentioned that there was no preference either way when stopping, but he also stated that most driving instructors teach their pupils to press their clutch down too late, and they would be very surprised at how long the clutch can be depressed before a Grade 2 mark would be given.

ADIDriving

brian076 wrote: »

I doubt very much if you would. I deliberately stopped in the gear that I was in during my Stage 2 test, following my experience in my advanced driving test, and I certainly wasn't marked.

Sorry, that should have read "was criticised" by Des ( honest ). It was not warrenting of a mark, but it was his recommendation to use the gears to assist the brakes. I would, as I think you would to, rate his opinion highly.

But the Advanced Driving Tester who was an ex garda driver said that only in special circumstances, such as ice or snow should you change down, at all other times just stop in the gear that you're in.

Do steep down hills, heavily ladened cars, towing etc. also qualify as special circumstance? Why not drop into a lower gear in normal circumstances?

I think stopping in buses and trucks is different

Why is it different? Why is it best for a large vehicle do it one way and a small vehicle do it differently?

and coming down through the gears is advised but the OP was worried about the driving test, and it's not a requirement, nor do I believe that it's best practice to come down through the gears when stopping. However as previously mentioned it depends on the circumstances, and if done correctly it's not a problem as far as the test is concerned.

I still agree that both are acceptable, when done properly.

I also remember during the driving tester training course, the Chief Driving Examiner who was conducting the course mentioned that there was no preference either way when stopping,

Although this contradicts my view, it also contradict yours! How can you use this quote and argue against me that it is best practice to stop in the gear you are in. "I'd have to disagree with you here, best practice is to stop in the gear that you're in, depressing the clutch about 1 to 1.5 car lengths from stopping, and not change down through the gears.I failed my first Advanced Driving Test for doing this."

but he also stated that most driving instructors teach their pupils to press their clutch down too late, and they would be very surprised at how long the clutch can be depressed before a Grade 2 mark would be given.

Although lots of people seems to disagree with my view that it is better to use the gears to assist the brakes when slowing from forth and fifth gear speeds, I have seen little in terms of explanations why?
I have no personal evidence that it is significantly damaging to the clutch.
The time spent on the clutch and therefor "not driving" in minimal and far before the stop. An arguement against this point would also be outweighted by the faster driving effect of the higher gear.

brian076

ADIDriving wrote: »

I have no personal evidence that it is significantly damaging to the clutch.
The time spent on the clutch and therefor "not driving" in minimal and far before the stop. An arguement against this point would also be outweighted by the faster driving effect of the higher gear.

I think we could go around in circles here and not achieve very much. I would assume that gears would definitely assist in the slowing down of trucks due to their weight and possible heavy loads, but I don't think you can apply the same principles to cars, leaving aside steep descents, snow etc.

I generally don't teach pupils to change down through the gears when stopping, not because it might damage the clutch, but more because it gives them less to do and think about. I also think a lot of drivers think they come down through the gears when stopping, but in reality they keep the clutch depressed the whole time, and are in fact coasting. This is a very common occurrence on the driving test, as well as holding onto the gear lever between each gear change.

The point I was making regarding the Chief Driving Examiners comments which I obviously didn't explain very well, was that a lot people think they'll be marked for coasting if they stop in 4th gear because they have to press the clutch down a bit earlier before the car starts to shudder, but in fact testers are more lenient than most driving instructors think when this happens.

There are occasions when I would advise a pupil to change down, for example when approaching a red light with no vehicles stopped ahead of them, I think it's useful to be in the correct gear for going again, should the lights change as they stop.

If however they're approaching a red light in 4th gear with a line of traffic already stopped, I don't see any benefit in changing down in this situation. I think in modern cars with good braking systems it's unnecessary to require the gears to slow you down in normal driving conditions.

If you teach your pupils to change down that's fine, I don't think it's the method that most instructors use, however my main gripe is with instructors who try and change pupils, especially close to their test, insisting that their way is the right way, no matter which method they use, as that's just confusing and unfair to the pupil.

MascotDec85

brian076

I'm not saying your method is wrong, as I said earlier we all have our own points of view. Just wondering why approaching lights would be any different to say approaching a roundabout? I mean, I'd presume you'd slow a car down going down through the gears or at least braking and block changing from 4 to 2.

Also, in a diesel it's generally not great to be brake, brake, braking in 4th and clutching 1.5m - 1m from the line or traffic in front as you suggested, chances are you'd have stalled by the stage! A petrol, as you know, is much more forgiving

brian076

MascotDec85 wrote: »

brian076

I'm not saying your method is wrong, as I said earlier we all have our own points of view. Just wondering why approaching lights would be any different to say approaching a roundabout? I mean, I'd presume you'd slow a car down going down through the gears or at least braking and block changing from 4 to 2.

Also, in a diesel it's generally not great to be brake, brake, braking in 4th and clutching 1.5m - 1m from the line or traffic in front as you suggested, chances are you'd have stalled by the stage! A petrol, as you know, is much more forgiving

Actually I have a diesel and there's no problem stopping in 4th once you get the braking right, maybe on occasions you might need to clutch 2 car lengths back, but that wouldn't be considered coasting.

The difference between the lights and the roundabout, is that if you know that you're definitely going to be stopping ie there's already a queue of cars at the lights then just stop in the gear that you're in, however, as already mentioned in my last post, if there's no one ahead of me approaching a red light then I would change down in anticipation of them changing to green and I think this would be similar to approaching most roundabouts.

The difference here is that I'm changing down to match my gears to the speed, having already braked rather than using the gears to slow the car. I've always used the "Police Drivers Handbook" as a good reference for how to drive properly, and as far as I can remember they only advocate two ways of slowing: coming off the gas or braking, except in exceptional circumstances.

daveharnett

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Certain scenarios where using the gears to manage your speed makes sense, is in poor, slippery conditions, where excessive use of brakes might cause a skid. Or if you were coming down a steep hill, which would result in you riding your brakes the whole way down if you simply left the car in a high gear, which would result in brake fade. They're just a couple of examples.

I've always found this piece of advice strange. In a low grip situation, unless you clutch out very slowly, or rev-match very accurately, aren't you going to load the wheels more suddenly than you would with gentle braking? Particularly when you bear in mind that most cars have 2 driven wheels and four brakes, and that the gearbox doesn't work the brake lights.

I'll agree that there are times (preventing acceleration on a long descent) where it is useful, but I'm not sure it's great advice for the masses of people who will take it out of context.

ADIDriving

The origional post was about what gear one should stop in. Their question did not mention the brakes. I would have assumed that they knew the brakes were needed to stop the car. Although the question of using gears to slow the car was later added, most people suggesting the use of gears to effect decceleration would use them in conjunction with the brakes. I suspect that when some readers of these posts see no mention of the brakes they are assuming that they are not being used. This may be the cause of some confusion. Typed answers are sometimes more brief then verbal explanations. It could cynically be said that every post here is wrong as nobody check a single mirror. As was mentioned earlier, there are various correct and incorrect ways of stopping, some are better or worse then others. I to would disapprove of an instructor who insisted their way was the only correct way and for no good reason forced a student to change.

Turpentine

ADIDriving wrote: »

Typed answers are sometimes more brief then verbal explanations. It could cynically be said that every post here is wrong as nobody check a single mirror.

Since no-one here mentioned starting the ignition it could cynically be said every post is wrong because their engines aren't even running.:)

daveharnett wrote: »

I've always found this piece of advice strange. In a low grip situation, unless you clutch out very slowly, or rev-match very accurately, aren't you going to load the wheels more suddenly than you would with gentle braking? Particularly when you bear in mind that most cars have 2 driven wheels and four brakes, and that the gearbox doesn't work the brake lights.

I'll agree that there are times (preventing acceleration on a long descent) where it is useful, but I'm not sure it's great advice for the masses of people who will take it out of context.

Good post, and regarding the section I highlighted, that is where I was coming from.

If someone isn't sure how to stop at a red light in normal conditions I don't think people should be complicating the mix by bringing in talk of gear changes instead of (or even in conjunction with) using brakes to slow down.

TheChizler

While we're kind of on the topic, just wondering what people think of rev matching while gearing down? i.e. tapping the accelerator when gearing down to minimise wear on the clutch. I've got it to the point where I can tap it into the new rpm pretty well, thus minimising clutch wear.

I have a younger brother learning to drive in my car at the moment, and another just finished, so the clutch has seen better days. Going to renew it as soon as the brother gets the hang of it, but in the meantime I'm trying to lengthen its life!

I know it's probably not going to be as effective as I hope, and added fuel costs aside, does anybody see anything inherently wrong with this?

Pet

There really needs to be a party line on this one...I've been told "stop in any gear" by 2 instructors, and another 2 (1 instructor, 1 pre-test lesson instructor) said "always change down the gears!". Confusing as ****.

brian076

Pet wrote: »

There really needs to be a party line on this one...I've been told "stop in any gear" by 2 instructors, and another 2 (1 instructor, 1 pre-test lesson instructor) said "always change down the gears!". Confusing as ****.

I agree it is confusing, but unfortunately driving isn't black or white. From reading this thread you will see that a few of us who are driving instructors have different opinions on the best way to carry out this manoeuvre.

When I was being taught many years ago we had to go down through the gears as brakes weren't as good as they are today so we had to use the gears to help slow down. This is unnecessary nowadays but a lot of drivers, and instructors who learnt to drive 15/20 years ago may still think that it's the best way to do it.

The best way to stop in normal conditions is just to stop in the gear that you're in, but road or traffic conditions may dictate otherwise.

MascotDec85

brian076 wrote: »

I agree it is confusing, but unfortunately driving isn't black or white. From reading this thread you will see that a few of us who are driving instructors have different opinions on the best way to carry out this manoeuvre.

When I was being taught many years ago we had to go down through the gears as brakes weren't as good as they are today so we had to use the gears to help slow down. This is unnecessary nowadays but a lot of drivers, and instructors who learnt to drive 15/20 years ago may still think that it's the best way to do it.

The best way to stop in normal conditions is just to stop in the gear that you're in, but road or traffic conditions may dictate otherwise.

In your opinion

brian076

MascotDec85 wrote: »

In your opinion

I think in many other driving instructors' opinion + Roadcraft (Police Drivers Handbook)+ Institute of Advanced Motorists etc. etc. :D

I'll go down the gears if I've seen the light was red a while and i might be able to continue on
otherwise usually stop as i am

Chris_Heilong

brian076 wrote: »

I agree it is confusing, but unfortunately driving isn't black or white.

In relaton to this tread, as all of this has an impact on how someone is taught to drive and will effect them when its driving test time and this is where the problem lies, its down to individuals how they decide to score you on test day, you can get marked down for reversing around a corner too slow/too fast, what gear you stop in at lights. Its crazy, it should be black and white or everyone should be informed that there are more than one way and all are accepted. With the new R system coming in you would hope that testers become more lenient considering that people who pass the test will still have restrictions placed upon them for 2 years. IMO a schooling system is the best way, you start by doing 20 classes and get marked as you learn, at the end you graduate or fail.

Alanstrainor

You can stop in what ever gear you want for the driving test. Stop in 4th, or come down through the gears, both are perfectly acceptable.

The speed you do manoeuvres at is something that's never going to be black and white, there will always be an element of the test that is left to the testers best judgement to decide.

ardmacha

There isn't a single answer to any question about stopping as circumstance will differ in every situation. However, changing down gears (to some extent) is not only concerned with engine braking but with being in an appropriate gear for the speed you are now doing. As bluewolf says, the obstruction might clear and you could then proceed without entirely stopping.

shannon_tek

What's your advice for when u come to a roundabout. I was told change down u should use that for lights