UK - Killers of transgender people to get longer sentences

dreamer_ire

Am curious as to people's take on this article on the BBC website. I have to say I'm in two minds. I completely agree with protecting vulnerable people but I also feel that they way they have chosen to do so almost makes one life worth more than another. Had they made it a minimum sentence for murder, which has a tarrif added to it in the event it's a hate crime, I'd be wholy supportive of it.

Curious as to your views?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16089715

Killers of transgender people to get longer sentences

The Home Office has announced longer jail sentences for murders motivated by hostility to a transgender person.The starting point used by the judge to set the tariff - or minimum term - will double from 15 to 30 years.
Ministers say an amendment will be added to the Legal Aid Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill.
The Ministry of Justice later confirmed that the 30-year minimum would also apply for murders motivated by hatred towards a disabled person.
Justice Secretary Ken Clarke said: "Hate crimes are abhorrent, they leave sections of society living in fear and at risk of unprovoked violence.
"These proposals make clear offenders should be in no doubt that they face a more severe sentence for these unacceptable crimes."
In September this year Leon Fyle, 23, was jailed for life for the murder of Destiny Lauren, a pre-operative transgender person who worked as a prostitute.
Fyle, who was convicted after a retrial, was given a 21-year tariff.
'Breaking down barriers'
There are no specific figures for violence or hostility towards trans people but it is believed to be on the increase.
The murder of Ms Lauren, who had been born Justin Samuels, was one of a number of recent murders of transgender people.
BBC home affairs correspondent Danny Shaw said the government had launched a strategy in England and Wales to drive out transgender prejudice.
On Thursday the Home Office launched the first ever national strategy to promote transgender equality.
Unveiling the plan on YouTube, Home Office Minister Lynne Featherstone said: "It's an important step, but I recognise that government can only go so far.
"So we will be working with schools, businesses and communities so that together, we can drive change and help consign transphobia to the past."
April Ashley, who became the first person to undergo sex-change surgery in Britain in 1960, said: "There are so many support groups out there, unlike when I did my transition 52 years ago when there was no help at all.
"Today's announcement shows we are moving forward to breaking down barriers and educating people."
The Gender Identity Research and Education Society welcomed the plan: "It contains a welcome range of commitments from major government departments to improve the lives of trans people.
"Trans people recognise that there is much more to do and will continue their productive relationship with the government."

foggy_lad

Is a transgendered persons life worth more than anyone who is not trans? the law should apply equally to all!

dreamer_ire

foggy_lad wrote: »

Is a transgendered persons life worth more than anyone who is not trans? the law should apply equally to all!

Not quite what I meant foggy. The sentence for murder should be the same, no matter the circumstances but I do think a tarrif could be added to that depending on the motivation or circumstances of the murder. I have no problem with a tarrif being added because someone was murdered because they were trans/gay/disabled/etc or because they were assaulted before they were killed.

Adhamh

No, I must say that I'm against any kind of tarriff as all serious kinds of violence are motivated by hatred, any I don't think that any 'minority' should be given more privilage than anyone else.

Annasopra

Adhamh wrote: »

No, I must say that I'm against any kind of tarriff as all serious kinds of violence are motivated by hatred, any I don't think that any 'minority' should be given more privilage than anyone else.

and yet minorities are specifically targeted for hate crime because they are a minority

stephen_n

Firstly I doubt very much this will act as a deterrent so in that sense it's futile. Can't imagine someone so twisted by hate stopping and saying oh best not kill this person they are trans I'll get 30 years instead of 15. Or maybe it will and they will decide right I can kill a gay person and only get 15 but I'll get 30 for the trans person so **** it i'll just kill a gay! A life is a life regardlesss of race age gender creed or sexuality so murder should carry the same sentence for all!

jaffacakesyum

foggy_lad wrote: »

Is a transgendered persons life worth more than anyone who is not trans? the law should apply equally to all!

Agreed.

I am in favour of this law, however, simply because I'm in favour of stricter sentencing (not necessarily for just trans murders).

Adhamh

mango salsa wrote: »

and yet minorities are specifically targeted for hate crime because they are a minority

No, they're targeted because someone hates them. Their status on a census is irrelevant.

See what I mean?

Annasopra

Adhamh wrote: »

No, they're targeted because someone hates them. Their status on a census is irrelevant.

See what I mean?

no

Hamhide

murder is murder and if you kill someone you should go to jail for life,regaurdless who it was or their status.Life means LIFE

deirdre_dub

foggy_lad wrote: »

Is a transgendered persons life worth more than anyone who is not trans?

No. A transgendered person's life is worth less than anyone who is not trans, and there is a ton of evidence for that (discrimination, difficulties in getting legal recognition, healthcare, suicide rates etc etc etc).

Adhamh wrote: »

No, I must say that I'm against any kind of tarriff as all serious kinds of violence are motivated by hatred, any I don't think that any 'minority' should be given more privilage than anyone else.

So you don't think that someone who commits two crimes (hatred and murder) should get a tougher sentence than someone who commits one (murder)?

stephen_n wrote: »

Firstly I doubt very much this will act as a deterrent so in that sense it's futile. Can't imagine someone so twisted by hate stopping and saying oh best not kill this person they are trans I'll get 30 years instead of 15.

You may be right, but what this law is saying is that "we as a society take a particularly dim view of murders motivated by this kind of hatred". It's not like such a horiffically hate-filled person is going to say "I'd better just stalk, harrass and rob trans people instead of kill them, because that will create huge distress in their lives and I won't suffer that severe of consequences if I'm caught".

So, yes, it may not act as a deterrant - that isn't the point - the point is sending out a message.

Or maybe it will and they will decide right I can kill a gay person and only get 15 but I'll get 30 for the trans person so **** it i'll just kill a gay!

I don't think transphobic murderers are interested in killing gay people. :rolleyes:

A life is a life regardlesss of race age gender creed or sexuality so murder should carry the same sentence for all!

So someone who murders an intruder in an over-zealous reaction to the intrusion should get the same sentence as a child murderer?

Shakti

more boards.ie trans hate bait theres a surprise, its gonna get pretty lonely/boring for some posters in here when trans-folk stop posting altogether.

stephen_n

deirdre_dub wrote: »

No. A transgendered person's life is worth less than anyone who is not trans, and there is a ton of evidence for that (discrimination, difficulties in getting legal recognition, healthcare, suicide rates etc etc etc).

So you don't think that someone who commits two crimes (hatred and murder) should get a tougher sentence than someone who commits one (murder)?

You may be right, but what this law is saying is that "we as a society take a particularly dim view of murders motivated by this kind of hatred". It's not like such a horiffically hate-filled person is going to say "I'd better just stalk, harrass and rob trans people instead of kill them, because that will create huge distress in their lives and I won't suffer that severe of consequences if I'm caught".

So, yes, it may not act as a deterrant - that isn't the point - the point is sending out a message.
I don't think transphobic murderers are interested in killing gay people. :rolleyes:
So someone who murders an intruder in an over-zealous reaction to the intrusion should get the same sentence as a child murderer?

So you think that hate filled people really differentiate between one minority and another? I think that suggests you over identify with your particular experience of hate to the extent that you assume it's your gender that they hate when in fact it's not. They hate your different than them pure and simple, trans people are an easier target as they tend to stand out but I wouldn't imagine the levels of hate crime differ that hugely per capita between trans people, gay people and other minorities.

As for someone breaking into a house and being killed by the owner occupier firstly that is never murder at worst it would be manslaughter as there is no premeditated motivation and is now viewed as self defence unless there was excessive force. What about someone murdering a mother of three kids? How does that rate on your scale?

Positive descrimination is just descrimination for those who wish to take the moral high ground! All it will ever achieve is frustration and bitterness!

Killer Pigeon

If there is reasonable evidence to suggest that the transgender individual was killed because of who the individual was, the person(s) would be found guilty of both murder and a homophobic attack causing death - increasing the counts against the guilty person. This would thereby merit a longer sentence. I recognise that this above is a generalisation and not always the case in instances of homicide involving transgender individuals. However, the rate of homophobic attacks against transgender people (including other LGBT) causing death should be included when looking at the statistics.

Leeway5555

stephen_n wrote: »

I wouldn't imagine the levels of hate crime differ that hugely per capita between trans people, gay people and other minorities.

Im fairly sure that levels of trans hate crime are far higher than toward other minorities, particularly when taking into consideration the amount of trans people about

edit:

Our data
suggests that trans people are three times more likely to experience a transphobic hate
incident or hate crime than lesbians and gay men homophobic hate incidents or crimes.
More in-depth research needs to be done on why this might be the case.

http://www.ucu.org.uk/media/pdf/r/6/transphobic_hate_crime_in_eu.pdf

Sonics2k

I -think- if the reason for the assault/murder is based solely on the reason the person is Trans, then it should come under the heading of a Hate Crime, just like if a Jew/African/Traveller/White/Goth/Justin Bieber fan is beaten or murdered because they happen to be as such.

But let's say it's just a random assault for a wallet by some desperate guy who needs cash, then it -ideally- should be charged as a normal assault and not a Hate crime.

Andrew33

I would have thought it'd be discriminatory to put a greater value on one (minority) groups life but thats the way the world is gone.
What they should do is charge a perpetrator with both crimes and sentences run consecutively rather than concurrently.
IE: you get 15yrs for killing someone and 5 yrs for a race/gender/hate related offence, you serve 20yrs instead of the farcical system now of only serving the longest individual term.

stephen_n

Leeway5555 wrote: »

Im fairly sure that levels of trans hate crime are far higher than toward other minorities, particularly when taking into consideration the amount of trans people about

edit:
http://www.ucu.org.uk/media/pdf/r/6/transphobic_hate_crime_in_eu.pdf

That's fairly flawed research but never the less even accepting that it is 3 to 1 how do you think that positive discrimination would do anything other than underline the differences?

foggy_lad

Sonics2k wrote: »

I -think- if the reason for the assault/murder is based solely on the reason the person is Trans, then it should come under the heading of a Hate Crime, just like if a Jew/African/Traveller/White/Goth/Justin Bieber fan is beaten or murdered because they happen to be as such.

But let's say it's just a random assault for a wallet by some desperate guy who needs cash, then it -ideally- should be charged as a normal assault and not a Hate crime.

Yes but Either way there is only one crime committed which is murder and the punishment should fit that crime no matter who the victim was.

What people want is for those who were drunk or on drugs or were only robbing when they accidentally killed to get more lenient sentances while those who killed because they hate gay or trans people should be given maximum sentances. This cant be allowed to happen, it is up to the Judge to decide on the sentance using the details of the crime and the plea of the convict as well as other mitigating circumstances and reletives impact statements etc

jaffacakesyum

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yes but Either way there is only one crime committed which is murder and the punishment should fit that crime no matter who the victim was.

What people want is for those who were drunk or on drugs or were only robbing when they accidentally killed to get more lenient sentances while those who killed because they hate gay or trans people should be given maximum sentances. This cant be allowed to happen, it is up to the Judge to decide on the sentance using the details of the crime and the plea of the convict as well as other mitigating circumstances and reletives impact statements etc

So you're basically saying that manslaughter and murder should be treated the same???

foggy_lad

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

So you're basically saying that manslaughter and murder should be treated the same???

is being intoxicated or indeed just having an uncontrollable hatred for someone because of their gender/age/ethnicity etc a good enough reason to get away with murder?

jaffacakesyum

foggy_lad wrote: »

is being intoxicated or indeed just having an uncontrollable hatred for someone because of their gender/age/ethnicity etc a good enough reason to get away with murder?

They're not 'getting away' with anything. If someone kills someone by accident by protecting their home and their family from an intruder, they should be sent to jail as the appropriate punishment for the crime they've committed.

If someone plots to go out of their way to violently murder someone simply because of the colour of their skin/their sexuality etc. they should also be sent to jail as appropriate punishement. The two sentences will of course be different.

I'm shocked you don't see the difference.

Rev Hellfire

The articles I've seen about this announcement state "The Ministry of Justice later confirmed that the 30-year minimum would also apply for murders motivated by hatred towards a disabled person."

So it seems to not be strictly aimed at transgender individuals in particular, but rather the greater number of individuals who fall under the 'disabled' umbrella.

deirdre_dub

stephen_n wrote: »

So you think that hate filled people really differentiate between one minority and another?

Um - yes!

Do you really think that every person who hate protestants automatically also hates trans people, immigrants, women, gays etc?

I've met more than one LGBT person who hates immigrants. Such people, obviously, don't also hate LGBT people.

I think that suggests you over identify with your particular experience of hate to the extent that you assume it's your gender that they hate when in fact it's not. They hate your different than them pure and simple

Not always true. Some people have a particular problem with people of a different sexuality, or of a different race, or of a different religion, or of a different experience of gender, or whatever.

trans people are an easier target as they tend to stand out

Yes - so what is the problem with providing specific protection to people who, through no fault of their own, end up having a big red target painted on them?

but I wouldn't imagine the levels of hate crime differ that hugely per capita between trans people, gay people and other minorities.

Imagine away...

As for someone breaking into a house and being killed by the owner occupier firstly that is never murder at worst it would be manslaughter as there is no premeditated motivation and is now viewed as self defence unless there was excessive force.

Which is why I put the phrase "over-zealous" into my hypothetical situation - in other words, "excessive force".

What about someone murdering a mother of three kids? How does that rate on your scale?

Um - tell me more. Why was she murdered?

Positive descrimination is just descrimination for those who wish to take the moral high ground! All it will ever achieve is frustration and bitterness!

Oh poor you!

stephen_n wrote: »

That's fairly flawed research but never the less even accepting that it is 3 to 1 how do you think that positive discrimination would do anything other than underline the differences?

If the differences exist, then why not bring attention to them?

stephen_n

Um - yes!

Do you really think that every person who hate protestants automatically also hates trans people, immigrants, women, gays etc?

I've met more than one LGBT person who hates immigrants. Such people, obviously, don't also hate LGBT people.

You are talking about two completely different things though. There is one thing hating someone it is a completely different thing to murder someone. We are discussing the ability to murder someone here and the motivations behind it. 98% of all murderers have been seperated from their primary care giver for a period of longer than three months before the age of three years. This doesn't mean if you are seperated from your primary care giver you will be a murderer but it suggests those who are capeable of murder are pre-disposed to it developmentally, the motivating factors are secondary to this and probably so is the focus.

Imagine away...

why not your imaging your view....

Um - tell me more. Why was she murdered?

What difference would it make?

If the differences exist, then why not bring attention to them?

So you don't want equality, you want to be treated differently but only in situations that are beneficial to you as a trans person?

Annasopra

stephen_n wrote: »

So you don't want equality, you want to be treated differently but only in situations that are beneficial to you as a trans person?

Equality isn't is my view treating every person equally - trans people may sometimes need things that cisgendered people don't in order for them to have a level playing field in life

deirdre_dub

stephen_n wrote: »

So you don't want equality, you want to be treated differently but only in situations that are beneficial to you as a trans person?

Didn't you admit earlier on that my trans status helps make me a specifically good target for hate? ("trans people are an easier target as they tend to stand out"). Why are you opposed to something to help level that playing field? Why are you OK with the fact that I tend to stand out and hence I'm an "easier target"?

Do you want equality, or do you want trans people to be treated differently, but only in situations which are detrimental to me as a trans person? Because that is what is going on - it is a simple fact that I am at a greater risk of a hate crime because I am a trans person. Given that difference exists, what is wrong with counter-balancing it with another "difference" in how the law treats such hate-motivated crimes against me?

stephen_n

mango salsa wrote: »

Equality isn't is my view treating every person equally - trans people may sometimes need things that cisgendered people don't in order for them to have a level playing field in life

In my view we are all humans, yes trans people do have different issues than me so do people of different races, religions and social backgrounds but they are still the same as me. They still have and should have the same rights in life that I have most of all their right to life should be no more or no less than mine. Using legislation to make people different will only ever succeed in making them different and that above all else is what will make there lives harder. Positive discrimination fosters distrust and hatred if you want proof of this go and talk to members of the unionist community who can't take up jobs because of positive discrimination in employment law to try and balance mistakes of the past, where it does not come down to ability it comes down to religious choice as to wether or not you can get the job. All this will do is foster sectarian hatred for generations to come, because equality wasn't about being equal it was about giving one side an advantage. Equality should be just that!

stephen_n

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Didn't you admit earlier on that my trans status helps make me a specifically good target for hate? ("trans people are an easier target as they tend to stand out"). Why are you opposed to something to help level that playing field? Why are you OK with the fact that I tend to stand out and hence I'm an "easier target"?

Do you want equality, or do you want trans people to be treated differently, but only in situations which are detrimental to me as a trans person? Because that is what is going on - it is a simple fact that I am at a greater risk of a hate crime because I am a trans person. Given that difference exists, what is wrong with counter-balancing it with another "difference" in how the law treats such hate-motivated crimes against me?

Why do you think your life has more value than mine?

deirdre_dub

stephen_n wrote: »

Why do you think your life has more value than mine?

I've answered that before. I don't think my life has more value than yours. I know that my life has less value than yours.

deirdre_dub

stephen_n wrote: »

In my view we are all humans, yes trans people do have different issues than me so do people of different races, religions and social backgrounds but they are still the same as me. They still have and should have the same rights in life that I have most of all their right to life should be no more or no less than mine.

Indeed. So when my right to life is, in the practical real-life sense, less than yours, what should happen? Nothing?

Using legislation to make people different

It isn't legislation that makes me different - it is the transphobia in society that makes me different.

Positive discrimination fosters distrust and hatred if you want proof of this go and talk to members of the unionist community who can't take up jobs because of positive discrimination in employment law to try and balance mistakes of the past,

And what would the nationalist community say? Would they bemoan that their unemployment rates are approaching those of the unionist community from above?

All this will do is foster sectarian hatred for generations to come

As opposed to doing nothing, which would keep the sectarian hatred going in the other direction.

because equality wasn't about being equal it was about giving one side an advantage. Equality should be just that!

Indeed. But if equality doesn't exist, and cannot exist, because of people's prejudices / hatred / history / whatever, what should happen? Nothing? Is that the kind of "equality" that you are interested in?

stephen_n

deirdre_dub wrote: »

I've answered that before. I don't think my life has more value than yours. I know that my life has less value than yours.

Your life doesn't have less value than mine and it's very sad that you percieve it does! Rating murder by gender or anything else puts a varying value on life which is what you are asking for. Do I think that tougher sentencing for hate crimes is nessecary yes I do, do I believe their should be proper research into hate crimes against trans people and adjustments made to Anti hate crime legislation according to that yes I do, do I think that murdering someone because they are trans is worse than murdering someone for any other reason no I don't.

stephen_n

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Indeed. So when my right to life is, in the practical real-life sense, less than yours, what should happen? Nothing?
It isn't legislation that makes me different - it is the transphobia in society that makes me different.
And what would the nationalist community say? Would they bemoan that their unemployment rates are approaching those of the unionist community from above?
As opposed to doing nothing, which would keep the sectarian hatred going in the other direction.
Indeed. But if equality doesn't exist, and cannot exist, because of people's prejudices / hatred / history / whatever, what should happen? Nothing? Is that the kind of "equality" that you are interested in?

So you are arguing that a nationalist should just get a job because they are nationalist not because of their ability/inability to do the job? Because they feel agrieved that makes that right in your opinion does it? So discriminating for the right reasons is valid in your opinion as long as the originally discriminated person gets their way! i.e. two wrongs make a right in your world.

When in my post did I suggest doing nothing? I didn't if you want to re-read it I simply suggested that discriminating against unionists is wrong too.

So if equality can't exist in your mind you want dominance instead?

Annasopra

Personalised comments deleted - folks argue the point - not each other

deirdre_dub

There are two ways of dealing with this issue. One is the ideal situation - everyone is equal. The other is the real-life situation.

And the real-life situation is that everyone is not equal. There are many reasons for those inequalities. However, most of them are due to the behaviour of people who have certain beliefs and attitudes. It isn't possible to legislate people's attitudes and beliefs out of them - however, it is possible (and appropriate) to legislate for inequality-producing behaviour.

deirdre_dub

stephen_n wrote: »

Your life doesn't have less value than mine and it's very sad that you percieve it does!

My life has less value than yours, not in the ideal sense, but in the real-life practical day-to-day sense. This is an observable, scientific, well-documented fact.

Rating murder by gender

Eh - what? Statisticians the world over rate murder by gender, and it is clear that the rating for trans people is pretty damn bad.

stephen_n wrote: »

So you are arguing that a nationalist should just get a job because they are nationalist not because of their ability/inability to do the job?

Are you saying that nationalists are less able than unionists?

The problem is when discrimination becomes instutionalised, when it becomes an intrinsic part of the society. And that is what happened in Northern Ireland with jobs, and that is what is happening with trans violence in society.

And the only way to combat institutionalised, intrinsic wrongs is through law.

When in my post did I suggest doing nothing? I didn't if you want to re-read it I simply suggested that discriminating against unionists is wrong too.

The difference being . . . ?

So if equality can't exist in your mind you want dominance instead?

Here I am with fourteen times the chances of being murdered than you, and you are talking about my dominance?!

deirdre_dub

stephen_n wrote: »

So if equality can't exist in your mind you want dominance instead?

At what rate of trans violence would you start to feel that I'm not being dominant?

EDIT that comment has really, really upset me. It actually proves how little value my life has. I'm now done with this thread.

Sonics2k

Honestly, you two are just arguing semantics for the sake of it.

As I said in a previous post, if someone is murdered/assaulted based purely on their skin colour/sexuality/religion/gender etc, than it is a Hate Crime, and warrants a longer sentence in jail.

If it's for any other reason, for example a homeless guy mugging and accidently shoots the person (no matter the gender/race/etc) it not a Hate Crime.

At no point did Stephen_n say that your life is worth less Deidre, his opinion was simply that murder is murder and should be treated the same no matter the persons race/gender/sexuality etc. That is a totally valid opinion, and it's not worth sparking yet another angry debate on this forum, but both of you have gotten over-heated and clearly aren't thinking straight here and are getting carried away.