Its that time of year again. Bah Humbug! :)

JimiTime

Always at this time of year, I am quizzed by people when I say 'I don't celebrate Christmas'.

I think its fairly common knowledge that all of the festivitities, and the time of year etc is all pagan in origin. So, can you convince me, why I SHOULD indulge in all the pagan customs? I've heard it said that all these pagan customs have lost their pagan meanings, and that God is now the focus etc. However, if I commit adultery, would it be ok to say to my wife that 'hey, its ok, because i was thinking of you.'? I kind of see it like that with all the pagan stuff being 'converted'. All these things set up to glorify false gods etc simply being rebranded seems a bit adulterous does it not?

Anyway, anyone want to convince me? For the record, I love the decorations, the trees and the atmosphere. Having 2 babies now, I'm revisiting the my stance again. It still seems wrong to me.

Lady Chuckles

JimiTime wrote: »

So, can you convince me, why I SHOULD indulge in all the pagan customs?

It's a tradition? It's a cultural thing? You enjoy it?
If you can't convince yourself to do (or not do) something, you can't expect anybody else to be able to either

Doc Farrell

Lady Chuckles wrote: »

JimiTime wrote: »

So, can you convince me, why I SHOULD indulge in all the pagan customs?

It's a tradition? It's a cultural thing? You enjoy it?
If you can't convince yourself to do (or not do) something, you can't expect anybody else to be able to either

If you're not a Christian then i guess you can enjoy the time as someone who lives in a stable developed country and has a family. I dont think people are forced to go to Mass or build a Crib anymore... could be wrong....

PDN

When my daughter celebrated her 21st birthday we threw a party for her. However, we didn't have the party on her actual 21st, because that was a Tuesday night and wouldn't be convenient for most people. So we had it on a Saturday instead.

In the same way, while Jesus wasn't born on the 25th of December, it made a useful time to celebrate it because that was already a holiday in ancient Rome. Picking a time of year to celebrate and remember the Incarnation seems a good idea to me, and tying it in with the New Year etc makes sense.

JimiTime

Lady Chuckles wrote: »

It's a tradition? It's a cultural thing? You enjoy it?
If you can't convince yourself to do (or not do) something, you can't expect anybody else to be able to either

Well, its more, how do YOU guys get over the hurdles of practising customs dedicated to pagan gods etc? Like I said, it seems a bit like committing adultery, and telling your wife 'its ok, I was thinking of you while being with her'. How do you square the pagan practices with God? Do you just not bother thinking about it? Or has anyone actually worked out that there is nothing wrong with it or what? At the end of the day, I enjoyed illicit sex at one point in my life, but I don't think that would be a reason to justify it before God.

homer911

Doc Farrell wrote: »

If you're not a Christian then i guess you can enjoy the time as someone who lives in a stable developed country and has a family. I dont think people are forced to go to Mass or build a Crib anymore... could be wrong....

Pun intended?

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

When my daughter celebrated her 21st birthday we threw a party for her. However, we didn't have the party on her actual 21st, because that was a Tuesday night and wouldn't be convenient for most people. So we had it on a Saturday instead.

In the same way, while Jesus wasn't born on the 25th of December, it made a useful time to celebrate it because that was already a holiday in ancient Rome. Picking a time of year to celebrate and remember the Incarnation seems a good idea to me, and tying it in with the New Year etc makes sense.

Well, I see nothing wrong or right in celebrating that Jesus was born. Hs birth is obviously a very important part of Christian history, though celebrating it is of no importance to Christianity. So that side of things I can take or leave.

However, its the manner in which Christians celebrate. All the festivities that were dedicated to false gods. Is it ok to simply ignore what they were, or rebrand them? As I said, it seems a bit adulterous. How would you reason all that malarkey? Would you simply file it under 'not important'?

readyletsgo

I blame Coca Cola fo re-inventing Santy and making Christmas a huge retail hoilday in/from the 1930's(?) and 40's. Very Americanized now.

Not christian here at all, but it seems to have been taken away (the spirit of it) from christians and pagans.

I just enjoy the day with the family, some nice food, and maybe a present if I'm lucky. Is what it is now I guess.

EDIT: lol, proves my point here, I put coca cola into google search and the first thing that comes up is 'coca-cola/christmas' link.

Doc Farrell

JimiTime wrote: »

PDN wrote: »

. Hs birth is obviously a very important part of Christian history, though celebrating it is of no importance to Christianity.

Hmm.... not sure if you are asking a question within an answer or answering a question that hasn't been asked..... may have to take a lifetime to get to you on this one.

PDN

Doc Farrell wrote: »

Hmm.... not sure if you are asking a question within an answer or answering a question that hasn't been asked..... may have to take a lifetime to get to you on this one.

Please learn to use the quote thingy better. I never said that! :eek:

Lady Chuckles

JimiTime wrote: »

if I commit adultery, would it be ok to say to my wife that 'hey, its ok, because i was thinking of you.'? I kind of see it like that with all the pagan stuff being 'converted'.

JimiTime wrote: »

Well, its more, how do YOU guys get over the hurdles of practising customs dedicated to pagan gods etc? Like I said, it seems a bit like committing adultery, and telling your wife 'its ok, I was thinking of you while being with her'.

JimiTime wrote: »

As I said, it seems a bit adulterous.

We get it! Combining traditions is like committing adultery... In my opinion it's a disgusting comparison, but howandever... :rolleyes:

I'm a Christian, but I also have a nationality. Christianity has traditions and so does my country. Surely, I should be able to combine the two if I'd really like to?

I don't understand what it is exactly you feel so strongly against. Perhaps you could give us an example? (and if you could leave out the adultery-bit this time it would be mighty swell...)

PDN

JimiTime wrote: »

Well, its more, how do YOU guys get over the hurdles of practising customs dedicated to pagan gods etc?

The same way that I refer to days of the week named after Woden, Thor and Freya. I also refer to months named after Janus, Mars and Caesar Augustus.

So, this Christmas, I will happily participate in 'pagan' traditions such as giving gifts to people I love, gathering round a dinner table, and singing songs about the Incarnation of Jesus Christ.

Doc Farrell

PDN wrote: »

Doc Farrell wrote: »

Lol, that fellow is unreasonable

Ok, sorry, i think i got it now. Sorry about that.

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

The same way that I refer to days of the week named after Woden, Thor and Freya. I also refer to months named after Janus, Mars and Caesar Augustus.

So, this Christmas, I will happily participate in 'pagan' traditions such as giving gifts to people I love, gathering round a dinner table, and singing songs about the Incarnation of Jesus Christ.

I get that we are a culture laden with paganism, and our months etc are called by such things. However, the difference is that we explicitly DO things in relation to Christmas etc. Christmas tree's etc etc, are things that are actively done. If you don't see the difference, then thats fine. Thats it squared for you. That however, doesn't do it for me personally as I certainly see a difference between living in a place named after a god, or living in a culture that refers to the days of the weeks etc a certain way, and actively DOING something that was a dedication etc to a false god.

Would it be ok in your opinion, if I was from Cameroon, and had a custom that meant I sprinkled chickens blood around the house in the name of some voodoo god, to carry out that same custom but instead rededicate the custom to living God? THAT would be more analogous, than the days of the weeks example. I have to say, it just makes me uncomfortable. As I said, the time is coming soon, when I will have to treat this more seriously, as I have my children to consider now, so I'm open to convincing. I've just never been satisfied with any of the reasoning. i think for most, its not something they even think about, which is probably why good reasons are hard to come by.

Is there anyone who is/was uncomfortable with these things, but came across a valid reason why as a Christian, its ok to take part in pagan festivities and dedications once you replace the pagan gods etc with the Living God?

JimiTime

Lady Chuckles wrote: »

We get it! Combining traditions is like committing adultery... In my opinion it's a disgusting comparison, but howandever... :rolleyes:

is that it, you say its a disgusting comparison, and then don't offer a reason why? Well thats helpful isn't it. God described Israel going after other gods as adulterous. So the comparison of indulging in festivities dedicated to other gods is apt. I just wonder if God would have accepted them simply taking those festivities (the actual acts of dedication etc) and putting God into it instead. Thats where my adultery analogy comes in.

I'm a Christian, but I also have a nationality. Christianity has traditions and so does my country. Surely, I should be able to combine the two if I'd really like to?

Of course, as long as they are not in conflict with each other. Which is the whole point.

(and if you could leave out the adultery-bit this time it would be mighty swell...)

Well, unless you give me a good reason why its a bad analogy, and not simply make declarations about being 'disgusted' with no backup, I'll continue to use it.;)

strobe

I think one solution (not sure what word I want there) Jimi could be to put up the tree, give gifts etc but just don't 'rededicate the custom to living God'. Don't dedicate it to anything. Put up a Christmas decorated tree (use a plastic one if that makes you more comfortable since it wouldn't actually be a tree) as a purely 'secular' decorative thing. Give gifts on the day purely for no other reason than to give gifts, like I presume you would have no problem doing if someone was emigrating or it was someone's birthday?

The Quadratic Equation

JimiTime wrote: »

All the festivities that were dedicated to false gods.

Every single day of the year has a festivity dedicated to some false pagan god somewhere.

Onesimus

In my family there is no focus on the Christmas tree or Santa Claus ( except for the feast of St.Nicholas Dec 6th the authentic Santa claus and not the consumerist type ).

I remember we had a tree one year because the landlord happened to have one and offered it to us. I used to think of it as a pagan thing but since learned that St.Boniface took it to England from Germany but I dont see it as pagan anymore ( or one could say I'm always split about it ).

We have a crib each year and this is our focus too. It's all about advent for us. Also there is a 40 day fast in our eastern Church ( that the western has dropped ) like lent leading up to Christmas day.

Other than Societies twisting of Santa and the Christmas tree I'm not sure what else you see as pagan?

Doc Farrell

I'm in the middle of something but I don't think that you are trolling so I'll give this a shot. First, chicken sacrifice, is not really part of the New Testament teachings and would be quite unhygienic around the house.
The Christmas tree is a Northern Europe mid winter tradition that reminds frozen people that the evergreen tree will survive and so will they. So it fits closer to the story of the Resurrection and of Hope in the bleakest midwinter.
I'm not sure what other traditions you dislike?
The Crib or Nativity scene can be traced to the actions of St. Francis who created a living one and who used it to help his almost entirely illiterate and uneducated listeners to understand the Gospels.

What I suspect is niggling at your conscience is why should you bother with Christian traditions when most public Christians seem to be a few raisins short of a Christmas pudding? Either they are aggressive U.S. Republicans, or overly pious apologists for clerics or simply nuts.

My suggestion is that you try to find teachers and writers who aren't crazy. Unfortunately you have to be careful as the Internet is full of fruits. Personally I prefer moderate Catholics as I am one myself. Many Franciscans and Jesuits write beautifully on Christmas. For example:

http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0194.asp

William J o'malley has a book called 'why be catholic'. Although he's in eighties he writes very clearly and humorously. Ironically, he's more famous for being an advisor to the movie the Exorcist, but he's won many awards for his books. I'm sure there are many non-Catholic posters here who have their favorite writers too and can recommend one.

If you have any questions on traditions just be specific, good luck.

PDN

strobe wrote: »

I think one solution (not sure what word I want there) Jimi could be to put up the tree, give gifts etc but just don't 'rededicate the custom to living God'. Don't dedicate it to anything. Put up a Christmas decorated tree (use a plastic one if that makes you more comfortable since it wouldn't actually be a tree) as a purely 'secular' decorative thing. Give gifts on the day purely for no other reason than to give gifts, like I presume you would have no problem doing if someone was emigrating or it was someone's birthday?

Actually, it's the other way around. Undecorated greenery in houses in winter was a pagan custom. Decorating the tree is a Christian tradition.

strobe

PDN wrote: »

Actually, it's the other way around. Undecorated greenery in houses in winter was a pagan custom. Decorating the tree is a Christian tradition.

Really? What about the Jeremiah 'they cut the tree from the forest and adorn it with gold and silver' stuff?

PDN

strobe wrote: »

Really? What about the Jeremiah 'they cut the tree from the forest and adorn it with gold and silver' stuff?

That's talking about fashioning an idol of wood. You need to really ssssstrettttttchhhh that to make it apply to a Christmas tree.

philologos

I don't particularly mind if you don't participate in Christmas Jimi.

You bring up stuff like Christmas had pagan origins and so on. This is true in that the precursor to Christmas had pagan origins. What's true of the present is that Christmas had abandoned the specific worship of pagan gods in the process and aimed to honour Jesus Christ.

As far as I see it, there is no act that remains in Christmas that constitutes the worship of other gods. There is no act that remains in Christmas that would contradict the truth of the Christian gospel or go starkly against it.

There are things that we need to be vigilant of as Christians:
1) Not to downplay Christmas as a "secular festival".
2) Not to become obsessed with consumerism
3) To try and focus ourselves and our brothers and sisters in the Gospel to keep Christmas as a time to worship Emmanuel. God with us. Jesus Christ.

As I become older, and as I grow in the Gospel of Jesus, Christmas has become more about spending time to fathom the great truth of Jesus as God and man and how ultimately He came to rescue us rather than getting caught trappings that can lead us from this. Family, friends, sharing gifts - all of these are excellent, but Jesus should be our focus.

If I was worshipping pagan Gods on Christmas, I'd get your point. Since I'm not, and since I'm honouring Jesus Christ through Christmas, I don't see how this could constitute paganism. Surely it is better that this holiday was reclaimed for Christ's glory? Indeed, we as Christians may have to resist the pressures of secular understandings of the "holidays" and continue to put Jesus Christ firmly at the centre of Christmas (at least in our own celebrations).

Soul Winner

Christmas is a Christianized Pagan festival. Some Christians don't even know this, they actually think Jesus was born on the December 25th and celebrate His birth with glee and utter ignorance of the facts. But that is OK, they are not doing anyone any harm once they don't ram it down everyone's throat. However, those of us who know better cannot join in on the hymn singing because we know its the wrong time of year for that. But then you could look at it this way, you have to ask yourself as a Christian, I should be celebrating Jesus everyday of the year including so called Christmas day. So if it bothers you that much then just join in with the festivities as though its the only time of the year that you do it and once its over just keep celebrating Jesus for the rest of the year which as a Christian you do anyway.

Seriously Jimi. When your kids are of age just educate them about it. Tell them the truth. If they don't find out from you then they'll find out from someone else and come back to you telling you that its a load of tosh making you look like a bit of a numpty for believing it, even though you never did. Always level with your kids when they ask an intelligent question. If they're mature enough to be curious about such things then just level with them, they'll respect you for it.

Oh, and Merry Christmas to you and yours

Lady Chuckles

JimiTime wrote: »

Well, unless you give me a good reason why its a bad analogy, and not simply make declarations about being 'disgusted' with no backup, I'll continue to use it.;)

I was merely saying it's repetative to read the same analogy over and over. We understood your standpoint the first few times

In my opinion (in my opinion... I can't speak for anybody else) the analogy is unfair. You don't hurt anyone by having a Christmas tree, but you hurt someone when you commit adultery. I don't think they are comparable. However, you're entitled to your view as well as I am to mine.

As I said before, if you could specify what you dislike perhaps we could understand you even better...

philologos

^^ I think he was using adulterous in the same sense as the OT prophets would in the Bible for when people were flirting with paganism rather than honouring God alone.

It would be a reasonable objection if I was actually worshipping other god-concepts during Christmas.

Peregrinus

JimiTime wrote: »

Always at this time of year, I am quizzed by people when I say 'I don't celebrate Christmas'.

I think it’s fairly common knowledge that all of the festivitities, and the time of year etc is all pagan in origin. So, can you convince me, why I SHOULD indulge in all the pagan customs? . . .

Jimi, Sunday is pagan in origin. (Hint: there’s a clue in the name.) The seven-day week is pagan in origin, coming from the worshippers of a moon-goddess. But that didn’t stop the Jews taking it over and investing it with a creation significance, and it doesn’t stop most Christians from making Sunday the focus of their resurrection celebrations.

I’m not going to try and convince you that you should celebrate Christmas because, to be honest, I don’t think a Christian needs to. (I can see why a Christian would want to, and would see it as fitting. But it isn’t necessary.)

But for heaven’s sake get over this “it’s pagan” nonsense. There was a pre-Christian (and pre-Jewish) celebration at the time of the winter solstice because it was the winter solstice, which is a significant event in the cycle of the seasons. Even if the people who celebrated this event couldn’t name God, they were celebrating what God had given them - the created universe, with its cycle of seasons which supports agriculture and so enables us to take advantage of God’s bounty. Are Christians supposed to ignore all this because those pagans didn’t know the name of God? If we can take over the seven-day week recognized by pagans, celebrate its turning point and invest it with a particularly Christian significance, for the life of me I cannot see why we cannot take over the 365-day year recognized by pagans, celebrate its turning point and invest it with a particular Christian significance.

Disregard Christmas if you wish. No real harm will result, though you may miss out on a bit of fun with your kids. But try to find a more plausible reason for doing so.

kelly1

Decorations trees etc are no harm IMO, just focus on Christ and you'll be fine!

No harm in celebrating at all.

Cato Maior

I wouldn't get too hung up on the pagan echos to our Christmas traditions. They're pretty harmless. I'm not a Christian, but I will still partake in many of the traditions. It provides some colour and light in the middle of the darkness.

prinz

I have no bother adopting things that were used in other belief systems/religions, like feeling closer to God in nature, I celebrate creation in all its forms, does that mean I am a pagan/druid/nature worshipper?

I feel it's over thinking things a bit to find traditions and actions which were one day used by somebody else as being akin to adultery at all. I can look at a statue and carving or figurine and admire the workmanship, may even buy one to keep, that doesn't mean I'm an idolator.

Peregrinus wrote:

But for heaven’s sake get over this “it’s pagan” nonsense. There was a pre-Christian (and pre-Jewish) celebration at the time of the winter solstice because it was the winter solstice, which is a significant event in the cycle of the seasons. Even if the people who celebrated this event couldn’t name God, they were celebrating what God had given them - the created universe, with its cycle of seasons which supports agriculture and so enables us to take advantage of God’s bounty. Are Christians supposed to ignore all this because those pagans didn’t know the name of God?

+1.

Splendour

I myself love Christmas time, the tree, family gatherings, carol singing etc... but would love to be able to celebrate without the presents although this is very difficult to avoid.

However, one of the biggest plus sides to celebrating the Christmas season (be that in a Christian or secular way) is the amount of charities which benefit from fundraising done at this time of the year. So often we hear it is a time of giving, not only to family and friends, but to those who are really in need of help it's great to see so many deserving causes 'cashing in' on the season. Just think of all those Bóthar goats looking forward to their new homes with needy families

JimiTime

Thanks for all the replies, appreciate it. BUT:) I don't think the issue I have raised has REALLY been addressed. There's been a lot of 'I love it, and think its grand', which is fine of course, but does not deal with the objections that arise in me. I know that its fine, and in no way a requirement to celebrate Christmas, and tbh, I don't think you'll be condemned for celebrating it neither. However, I want to establish what God would actually think about it. Sooo....

I know that Christmas is second nature to us in this age and culture, so in order to truly deal with my actual issue we must introduce a foreign idea to bring us out of the comfort of familiarity. Soooo, I'll go back to my comparison to the ex Voodoo ritual. Being consistent, I take it that no-one would raise an issue sprinkling chickens blood around the house at the anniversary of Jesus' death, as this ritual has now been rededicated to God rather than its original dedication to a voodoo god?

The Quadratic Equation

JimiTime wrote: »

I know that Christmas is second nature to us in this age and culture, so in order to truly deal with my actual issue we must introduce a foreign idea to bring us out of the comfort of familiarity. Soooo, I'll go back to my comparison to the ex Voodoo ritual. Being consistent, I take it that no-one would raise an issue sprinkling chickens blood around the house at the anniversary of Jesus' death, as this ritual has now been rededicated to God rather than its original dedication to a voodoo god?

The point you might be missing is that every single day of the year has some type of non Christian pagan tradition / god associated with it.

Doc Farrell

Jimi I have no idea what you are talking about. Here is the simple fact. Christians believe that Jesus born in Bethlehem is the Messiah, the Christ, and they celebrate his day of Birth. Thats the bottom line. Everything else is bonuses, Christmas pressies, if you like.
Why don't you write out in short sentences what's bugging you. Keep the sentences short and number your specific grievances.

Maybe my attempt at dry wit in my first post, was a mistake but blood or animal sacrifice has no place in Christianity. Neither is it practiced in Judaism since 70AD.

Voodoo is an African religion that has incorporated certain Catholic names but that doesn't make it Christian.

If Christians wanted to incorporate Vodoo practices they would have done so by now. Praying to 'spirits' not to hurt you or to give you wealth is basically satanism. It's not Catholicism.
Here's a link to help you understand about the 'Intercession of Saints', from a Catholic perspective. Catholics also pray to the Holy Family and to the Blessed Trinity, but not just to any old spirit that happens to be passing by.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-intercession-of-the-saints

The difference is that Catholics pray to saints and angels who are in Heaven.

Voodoo spirits are not in heaven and are basically demons. That's why Catholicism doesn't recommend holding a ouiji board ceremony at any time, never mind Christmas. Because one is poking the supernatural world with a big stick and you don't know what you are messing about in.

This is basic stuff Jimi, you need to do some homework Jimi and then get specific about what annoys you. Bottom line, if you are a follower of Jesus then you celebrate his birthday with positive stuff. If you are not a follower then you can just eat pudding and forget about religion.
Post again and use short sentences and say clearly what actual points bug you.

JimiTime

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

The point you might be missing is that every single day of the year has some type of non Christian pagan tradition / god associated with it.

Ok, so is my example acceptable?

JimiTime

Doc Farrell wrote: »

Jimi I have no idea what you are talking about. .

No problem. If you do figure it out, you'll realise that all your 'its basic stuff Jimi' etc is rather misplaced. Your posts at present are nothing to do with what I've said.

Newsite

JimiTime wrote: »

Always at this time of year, I am quizzed by people when I say 'I don't celebrate Christmas'.

I think its fairly common knowledge that all of the festivitities, and the time of year etc is all pagan in origin. So, can you convince me, why I SHOULD indulge in all the pagan customs?

I've heard it said that all these pagan customs have lost their pagan meanings, and that God is now the focus etc. However, if I commit adultery, would it be ok to say to my wife that 'hey, its ok, because i was thinking of you.'? I kind of see it like that with all the pagan stuff being 'converted'. All these things set up to glorify false gods etc simply being rebranded seems a bit adulterous does it not?

Anyway, anyone want to convince me? For the record, I love the decorations, the trees and the atmosphere. Having 2 babies now, I'm revisiting the my stance again. It still seems wrong to me.

You're not 'indulging in a pagan custom'. You're not worshiping or praying to a tree. You're reminding yourself of the birth of Christ and you're enjoying, and being thankful for, the company of friends and family.

For me, Christmas is also about gratitude. Certainly this year I am more aware of how fortunate I am and I feel more grateful and appreciative than in past times. I have amazing family and friends, I have met amazing people through work, and I feel blessed all round.

I actually think it's a shame we don't have a feast day like Thanksgiving like the good old Americans. So, Christmas is the next best thing in those terms.

It comes but once a year. I say, chill out, enjoy, and have a cold beer, JimiTime

lmaopml

JimiTime wrote: »

Ok, so is my example acceptable?

I think it depends on what is in your heart Jimi, and to accept that nothing has happened, including celebrating Christ's birth that God doesn't know already, I don't think he would object to celebrating and giving thanks for the gift of his son.

The objection to paganism is no doubt worthy - However, I personally think that Christmas is one of the most lovely seasons to spread goodwill and cheer to our family and friends - a time for reflection, and thanksgiving for the birth of our Saviour. If you look too hard you will object to very many things, and miss out on all the good things too that God created you to be a part of - in the right spirit of course.

The Quadratic Equation

JimiTime wrote: »

Ok, so is my example acceptable?

Acceptable for what ?

Apologies Jimi, you're a hard man to follow, or perhaps I'm a bit slow tonight . . .

Can you run your example again, and clarify your query ?

JimiTime

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Acceptable for what ?

Apologies Jimi, you're a hard man to follow, or perhaps I'm a bit slow tonight .

I'd guess its the former tbh. You aren't the first person to say that to me:)

Can you run your example again, and clarify your query ?

Ok. Basically, this is my best attempt at putting it in a nutshell.

1. So many of our Christmas customs are pagan in origin. Christmas trees, Yule logs and so many other things etc are dedications to false gods.

2. Is it ok to take something dedicated to a false god, and just rebrand it. So continue doing the thing that is done in worship to the false god, but rebrand it. THAT is where the example I gave in my last post comes in, and my question about if it would be acceptable:

I know that Christmas is second nature to us in this age and culture, so in order to truly deal with my actual issue we must introduce a foreign idea to bring us out of the comfort of familiarity. Soooo, I'll go back to my comparison to the ex Voodoo ritual. Being consistent, I take it that no-one would raise an issue sprinkling chickens blood around the house at the anniversary of Jesus' death, as this ritual has now been rededicated to God rather than its original dedication to a voodoo god?

Doc Farrell

If he posts 'acceptable regarding my argument above which I have now clearly stated twice' then I will know that I've been punked by a brilliant new type of trolling.

Use short sentences, small words and state clearly jimitime!

Edit: just saw post above, philologos and peregrinus answered this question.

JimiTime

Doc Farrell wrote: »

If he posts 'acceptable regarding my argument above which I have now clearly stated twice' then I will know that I've been punked by a brilliant new type of trolling.

Use short sentences, small words and state clearly jimitime!

No offence, but could you just clear off rather than popping in and accusing me of trolling. I've been around here long enough for people to know I'm not a troll. So, if you don't get it, then don't worry about it.

lmaopml

JimiTime wrote: »

I'd guess its the former tbh. You aren't the first person to say that to me:)



Ok. Basically, this is my best attempt at putting it in a nutshell.

1. So many of our Christmas customs are pagan in origin. Christmas trees, Yule logs and so many other things etc are dedications to false gods.

2. Is it ok to take something dedicated to a false god, and just rebrand it. So continue doing the thing that is done in worship to the false god, but rebrand it. THAT is where the example I gave in my last post comes in, and my question about if it would be acceptable:

I know that Christmas is second nature to us in this age and culture, so in order to truly deal with my actual issue we must introduce a foreign idea to bring us out of the comfort of familiarity. Soooo, I'll go back to my comparison to the ex Voodoo ritual. Being consistent, I take it that no-one would raise an issue sprinkling chickens blood around the house at the anniversary of Jesus' death, as this ritual has now been rededicated to God rather than its original dedication to a voodoo god?

OK, so you are placing comparisons between every form of worship, and think that all things are worthy of being stripped down naked....

I can see where you are coming from, but I don't understand why you would want to wage an arguement, other than for puritanical reasons, or strictly 'date' wise etc.

It depends on your motives, which are not always pure....since dates mean very little really, rather the spirit of the occasion celebrated. Christmas is a time that Christians celebrate the Gospel, the very deep understanding that Jesus gave to us..The concept that 'love' is our greatest gift to eachother..

C'mon Jimmy, celebrate too - If you wish to fight against anything fight consumerism, and materialism, but not the spirit that celebrates re-birth and the simplicity of our Saviours birth. Semantics have their own place, but so too do feast days.....It matters very little the number of the day of the year, so long as the heart is able to experience the joy of the occasion with others...

Pml, at the bah humbug - pull the other one, you're no more bah humbug...

Doc Farrell

In what respect do you think peregrinus and philologos didn't answer your query yesterday? You are annoyed with me. Why don't you just read their posts again. As for the animal sacrifice stuff, I didn't bring it up! I went to the trouble of trying to explain how it has nothing to do with Christianity ......
Happy Christmas Jimitime!

The Quadratic Equation

JimiTime wrote: »

I'd guess its the former tbh. You aren't the first person to say that to me:)

Ok. Basically, this is my best attempt at putting it in a nutshell.

1. So many of our Christmas customs are pagan in origin. Christmas trees, Yule logs and so many other things etc are dedications to false gods.

2. Is it ok to take something dedicated to a false god, and just rebrand it. So continue doing the thing that is done in worship to the false god, but rebrand it. THAT is where the example I gave in my last post comes in, and my question about if it would be acceptable:

I know that Christmas is second nature to us in this age and culture, so in order to truly deal with my actual issue we must introduce a foreign idea to bring us out of the comfort of familiarity. Soooo, I'll go back to my comparison to the ex Voodoo ritual. Being consistent, I take it that no-one would raise an issue sprinkling chickens blood around the house at the anniversary of Jesus' death, as this ritual has now been rededicated to God rather than its original dedication to a voodoo god?

Ok, I get ya.

I would say there is no harm in rebranding something as such, as long as it does not conflict with Christian scripture etc. Particulary if it's just for decoration etc. We are surrounded by such things every day.

JimiTime

lmaopml wrote: »

OK, so you are placing comparisons between every form of worship, and think that all things are worthy of being stripped down naked....

I'm not sure what that means?

I can see where you are coming from, but I don't understand why you would want to wage an arguement, other than for puritanical reasons, or strictly 'date' wise etc.

the reason for my concern is simple. At this moment in time, I don't believe it right to simply rebrand the rituals dedicated to false gods. So I've asked people here to give me good reasons why doing it is ok with God. After all, it was him who was cheated on with these rituals in the first place. So far however, no-one has answered my question regarding rebranding the voodoo ritual. I appreciate the input, but so far its been a bit 'Ahh come on, its great.' While I appreciate the sentiment, my question is specific.

It depends on your motives, which are not always pure....since dates mean very little really, rather the spirit of the occasion celebrated. Christmas is a time that Christians celebrate the Gospel, the very deep understanding that Jesus gave to us..The concept that 'love' is our greatest gift to eachother..

TBH, this does not deal with the question of rituals of Pagan origins.

C'mon Jimmy, celebrate too

Get behind me Satan..:D

*And in case anyone thinks I'm serious, that was a joke

- If you wish to fight against anything fight consumerism, and materialism, but not the spirit that celebrates re-birth and the simplicity of our Saviours birth.

Again, this is a bit tangental. I can do such things without indulging in questionable rituals.

Semantics have their own place, but so too do feast days.....It matters very little the number of the day of the year, so long as the heart is able to experience the joy of the occasion with others...

Now, now. Don't reduce my concern to a matter of semantics. It may be semantics to you, which is fine, but I believe its of genuine concern. If I get some valid reasons as to why the rituals are ok, then I'm on board. Until then though, all I can see are rituals for false gods, which is something far from semantical.

Pml, at the bah humbug - pull the other one, you're no more bah humbug...

Tongue firmly in cheek:)

lmaopml

JimiTime wrote: »

I'm not sure what that means

Well it seems to me that you have to decide whether celebration of Christmas is the celebration of a false God..or whether the spirit of goodwill has rebranded it for one and all....

Get behind me Satan..:D

I hope he does, but I am not he..

*And in case anyone thinks I'm serious, that was a joke

* thank goodness!


[quote[Again, this is a bit tangental. I can do such things without indulging in questionable rituals.[/quote]

Yes you can, and you don't need to answer to anybody for doing so either...

Now, now. Don't reduce my concern to a matter of semantics. It may be semantics to you, which is fine, but I believe its of genuine concern. If I get some valid reasons as to why the rituals are ok, then I'm on board. Until then though, all I can see are rituals for false gods, which is something far from semantical.

I think you will see what you will....I'm just sorry you don't join in bah humbug in celebrating the saviours birth...

Tongue firmly in cheek:)

Of course...lol...Happy Christmas X

Soul Winner

I think I get the basic gist of your gripe Jimi. You don't want to participate in idol worship which is very Christian of you. Idol worship being defined as valuing something or someone over or putting something or someone before God in our lives. If that's your gripe (and I think it is from what I can tell) then use the principle of taking the plank out of your own eye first before proceeding to take the splinter out of your brother's eye, that Jesus said we should do, i.e. If you are so dead against having anything to do with idol worship then apply it to yourself personally, think of how many times in just one day that you put what you want before what God wants in your life. I can think of loads in my own case for instance but I can't speak for yourself. But if we tried as hard to get rid of that (plank) in our own lives then we'd be able to see clearly enough to deal with this Christmas dilemma that you seem to think is worthy enough to start a whole thread over. If the caps fits, wear it.


You wanted the root issue addressed and I think the above text addresses it pretty well imo.

strobe

Soul Winner wrote: »

basic jist [of] your gripe

Heh, what a turn of phrase. I'm totally using that in future.

Sorry to interrupt.

As you were.

PDN

strobe wrote: »

Heh, what a turn of phrase. I'm totally using that in future.

Probably better to spell 'gist' correctly if you do.

JimiTime

Soul Winner wrote: »

I think I get the basic gist of your gripe Jimi. You don't want to participate in idol worship which is very Christian of you.

Well, its more, how is it that everyone who does all these things square it, in terms of God? And asking the question, 'is God ok with taking actions dedicated to false gods, and simply rebranding the action?'

use the principle of taking the plank out of your own eye first before proceeding to take the splinter out of your brother's eye, that Jesus said we should do,

Thats more about accusations against others. I'm asking others. At present I'm uncomfortable with it all, and asking all of you, a) If you've thought about it? and if so, what is your reasoning about it being ok? And b) If you haven't ever thought about it, and you are a cultural Christmasser, have a think about it, and see if you can reason through my issue.

i.e. If you are so dead against having anything to do with idol worship then apply it to yourself personally, think of how many times in just one day that you put what you want before what God wants in your life. I can think of loads in my own case for instance but I can't speak for yourself. But if we tried as hard to get rid of that (plank) in our own lives then we'd be able to see clearly enough to deal with this Christmas dilemma that you seem to think is worthy enough to start a whole thread over. If the caps fits, wear it.

I think you've taken that out of context, but even in the context you use it, it doesn't really deal with what I've asked. At the end of the day, I presently have a conscientious objection, and am seeking others to reason my issue with me.