HEC: Scarlets vs Munster, Sat 10 Dec 3:40pm Parc y Scarlets; Live Sky Sports 1

thomond2006

Munster:
Marcus Horan, Wian du Preez , Stephen Archer, BJ Botha, John Hayes, Damien Varley, Denis Fogarty,
Donncha O’Callaghan, Donnacha Ryan, Mick O'Driscoll, Ian Nagle, Paul O’Connell, Billy Holland,
Peter O’Mahony, Niall Ronan, Tommy O’Donnell, Denis Leamy, James Coughlan,

Conor Murray, Tomas O’Leary,
Ronan O’Gara, Ian Keatley,
Tom Gleeson, Danny Barnes, Will Chambers, Lifeimi Mafi
Scott Deasy, Simon Zebo, Denis Hurley, Johne Murphy,

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/9767.php

I'd like to see:
du Preez, Varley, Botha, Ryan, POC, Leamy, Ronan, POM;
Murray, ROG, Murphy, Barnes, Chambers, Mafi, Hurley

Bench: Fogarty, Horan, Archer, DOC, Coughlan, TOL, Keatley, Zebo/Deasy

Current Table:
Scarlets 9
Munster 8
Saints 2
Castres 1

Huge game here, it's very important that Munster get at least a point in Wales. Both Munster and Scarlets could come out of this pool if they win their home game over the next 2 weeks.

I'm worried. Scarlets play a great brand of rugby and have some excellent backs while our backplay is pretty poor. Without Dougie we have lost our best attacking back by a mile. Whatever backline we name it's going to be pretty weak IMO. I'd definitely take a losing bonus point.

However Munster won't fear Scarlets at all. We've beaten them home and away in the league for the past 4 seasons. Ironically our last loss to them was the 2007 Heineken Cup quarter final.

As many of ye have said, this is a game that will have to be won by the forwards. Whoever is picked in the backrow has a big role to play in driving the team forward. I'd like to think our scrum will be solid and Varley has got to hit his targets at the lineout.

I believe Munster can win but this is Scarlets' biggest game for a long time and I fear their backline will cut Munster's backline up on 1 or 2 occasions and make it count.

ed7890

North and Davies are injury worries for the Scarlets at the moment. Sounds like they think North has a good chance of making it anyway though.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/12/07/scarlets-hit-by-injuries-to-george-north-and-jonathan-davies-91466-29908261/

armchaircoach

Munster by 7 or less.

The munster forwards have been very impressive so far this year, and have been blowing a lot of teams out of the water. The scrum in particular has been very solid and I think it will be too much for the Scarlets.

That being said if the ball drifts out beyond 10 then I think they're in trouble. I don't think a win is out of the question, and a losing bonus is definately on the table.

smurphy29

Eh? Who exactly have the Munster forwards blown out of the water?

[Jackass]

Scarlets by 7 or less.

Ah, in fairness, 40+ phases of ball retention against the much vaunted pack of Northampton, plus enabling the drop goal in Castres the following week, plus the last quarter in Lansdowne Road vs Leinster, they did very well.

They're improving all the time, Foley seems to be doing a very good job, bringing them back to basics.

But, having said that, the Munster injury crisis might just be too much to handle. Munster might struggle if they can't control possession, and I think Scarlets will be really up for this.

I think Scarlets might nick it in Parc Y Scarlets, Munster would be happy enough with a losing BP I'd say, as they'll get past them handy enough in Thomond.

But I'm throwing it out there, that if Scarlets can repeat what they did against Northampton, they'll win by more than 7 imho. Game couldn't come at a worse time for Munster either I reckon.

PhatPiggins

[Jackass] wrote: »

Ah, in fairness, 40+ phases of ball retention against the much vaunted pack of Northampton, plus enabling the drop goal in Castres the following week, plus the last quarter in Lansdowne Road vs Leinster, they did very well.

They're improving all the time, Foley seems to be doing a very good job, bringing them back to basics.

But, having said that, the Munster injury crisis might just be too much to handle. Munster might struggle if they can't control possession, and I think Scarlets will be really up for this.

I think Scarlets might nick it in Parc Y Scarlets, Munster would be happy enough with a losing BP I'd say, as they'll get past them handy enough in Thomond.

But I'm throwing it out there, that if Scarlets can repeat what they did against Northampton, they'll win by more than 7 imho. Game couldn't come at a worse time for Munster either I reckon.

Not to belittle the Scarlets excellent performance against the Saints but there were a few other factors at play there mainly:
The Saints clearly hadn't gotten over what must have been mentally a devastating loss to Munster
Jim Mallender was being touted as a shoe in for the England job, uncertainty is never good.
The Scarlets got every lucky bounce imaginable and scored 3 of the luckiest tries I've seen this season
The Scarlets front row got away with murder
They were supposed to get hammered and played without pressure.

Personally I'm worried about all our injuries but if I had to pick an away game against the pool leaders the Scarlets would be in my top 3.

Amazotheamazing

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Not to belittle the Scarlets excellent performance against the Saints but there were a few other factors at play there mainly:
The Saints clearly hadn't gotten over what must have been mentally a devastating loss to Munster
Jim Mallender was being touted as a shoe in for the England job, uncertainty is never good.
The Scarlets got every lucky bounce imaginable and scored 3 of the luckiest tries I've seen this season
The Scarlets front row got away with murder
They were supposed to get hammered and played without pressure.

Personally I'm worried about all our injuries but if I had to pick an away game against the pool leaders the Scarlets would be in my top 3.

Hmm, I'm not convinced it was all down to luck, the Scarlets are one of the form teams in the comp, it's a massive ask to go there and win, luckily the win in Castres might give us a bit of wiggle room for losing bonus points etc.

PhatPiggins

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Hmm, I'm not convinced it was all down to luck, the Scarlets are one of the form teams in the comp, it's a massive ask to go there and win, luckily the win in Castres might give us a bit of wiggle room for losing bonus points etc.

I refer you to the first 10 words of my post

Fireball07

Munster by 7 or less.

Does anyone know how many times Nagle has been included in the extended squad for HC games? And TOD?

It's good to see them involved somewhere...although we must be one of the only teams that name 6 second rows in a 29 man squad.

Quint2010

Scarlets by 7 or less.

Worried for Munster. A BP loss is the best they can hope for.

CiaranMT

Fireball07 wrote: »

Does anyone know how many times Nagle has been included in the extended squad for HC games? And TOD?

It's good to see them involved somewhere...although we must be one of the only teams that name 6 second rows in a 29 man squad.

I'd say they'd have to keep him sweet. He's not going to get ahead of the 3 matchday players just yet but at the same time, he has to know he has a future here.

GerM

Quint2010 wrote: »

Worried for Munster. A BP loss is the best they can hope for.

There's a good reason the bookies aren't able to separate the two sides in their odds. Munster have a great chance of winning both games in the next 2 weekends. Scarlets really aren't much of a side. They've had nearly all their HEC pack available in the Pro12 thus far and are in the bottom half of the table. If Munster simply hang onto the ball I can't see the Scarlets being able to get a foothold. Llanelli's backs are good, they're not Toulouse a couple of years ago or Leinster in 2006. They're opportunistic; if Munster don't give them opportunities they won't get much joy.

Something also worth mentioning, Scarlets first choice back line haven't managed to get a single game together this season yet so they're not going to be as slick as one might think they could be.

Iang87

Munster by 7 or less.

I'd be pleased enough with a bonus point loss and see what we can get in thomond park. Strange things happen out there on cold winter days as we all know.

As for the backline I wouldn't be surprised to see TOL start out on the wing for this game due to the injuries.

I'm not optimistic in the slightest but hopefully they'll prove me wrong

Fishooks12

Munster by more than 7.

Iang87 wrote: »

I'd be pleased enough with a bonus point loss and see what we can get in thomond park. Strange things happen out there on cold winter days as we all know.

As for the backline I wouldn't be surprised to see TOL start out on the wing for this game due to the injuries.

I'm not optimistic in the slightest but hopefully they'll prove me wrong

Not a chance.

Mafi, Hurley and Murphy back three

CiaranMT

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Not a chance.

Mafi, Hurley and Murphy back three

Would love to have Mafi out aiming to take North's head off ( :P ) but Chambers and Barnes wouldn't work out well as a partnership. Mafi's the most experienced centre we have now (who'd have believed that 2 seasons ago).

PhatPiggins

CiaranMT wrote: »

Would love to have Mafi out aiming to take North's head off ( :P ) but Chambers and Barnes wouldn't work out well as a partnership. Mafi's the most experienced centre we have now (who'd have believed that 2 seasons ago).

Inclined to agree, would expect to see Barnes and Hurley (lets not get too carried away by 1.5 good performances at 15) on the wings and Murphy at 15

totallegend

Munster by 7 or less.

Newstalk reporting Zebo fit and will start

Fireball07

Munster by 7 or less.

totallegend wrote: »

Newstalk reporting Zebo fit and will start

Nice one. That's a boost. Better than having a centre on the wing imo. And we can keep the ball with the forwards for most of the game but if there is ever a bit of space there's no better man than Zebo to exploit it.

ormond lad

totallegend wrote: »

Newstalk reporting Zebo fit and will start

Fireball07 wrote: »

Nice one. That's a boost. Better than having a centre on the wing imo. And we can keep the ball with the forwards for most of the game but if there is ever a bit of space there's no better man than Zebo to exploit it.

Zebo Gets All Clear
8 December 2011, 6:33 pm
By The Editor

Simon Zebo came through Munster final squadsession today in Limerick and will be in consideration for selection for Munster side for the Heineken Cup clash with Scarlets on Saturday

Zebo finished training in UL on Tuesday prematurely having gone over on an ankle towards the end of the session and looked in some discomfort when he left with colleagues for the trip back to Cork.
However, as originally hoped, the injury hasn't proven too serious and he came through the session this afternoon in Thomond Park Stadium unscathed.
Munster, who fly out to Cardiff tomorrow from Shannon,will announce their match day squad at noon tomorrow.
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/9776.php

PhatPiggins

Fireball07 wrote: »

Nice one. That's a boost. Better than having a centre on the wing imo. And we can keep the ball with the forwards for most of the game but if there is ever a bit of space there's no better man than Zebo to exploit it.

I reckon that'll be largely irrellevant as our wingers will only be there to defend. 10 man rugby or death for Munster this weekend.

Is Barnes a centre or a winger? I can never keep up with the positional switching

Fireball07

Munster by 7 or less.

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I reckon that'll be largely irrellevant as our wingers will only be there to defend. 10 man rugby or death for Munster this weekend.

Is Barnes a centre or a winger? I can never keep up with the positional switching

I agree generally but even when you're playing 10 man rugby...a huge gap could conceivably open up at some stage during the game and you're not going to not exploit it just because you've kept it in the forwards up till then.

Barnes is a centre, he's never started on the wing as far as I know, just moved there after subs.

PhatPiggins

Fireball07 wrote: »

I agree generally but even when you're playing 10 man rugby...a huge gap could conceivably open up at some stage during the game and you're not going to not exploit it just because you've kept it in the forwards up till then.

Barnes is a centre, he's never started on the wing as far as I know, just moved there after subs.

He's played and started a few games for Munster on the wing unless I'm completely losing my marbles.

I wouldn't be an advocate of him being a winger but I think he's a better then Zebo currently is and that'll get him the nod imo.

PhatPiggins

Actually now that I check it would appear that the marbles are completely out of the bag and rolling around on the floor

Fireball07

Munster by 7 or less.

Yeah, I don't remember him playing there at all. I thought he was good against Leinster on the wing, where he played 79 minutes.

But people are questioning his defence...which was good that tbf, but has been slightly dodgy at times. But again, Zebo's has never really been tested either, I'd be slightly worried about him.

But I think Barnes and Chambers should stay in the centre, Mafi on the bench, apart from a slightly promising start, he's been poor this year. Of course he has the potential to be very good and could feasibly produce a big performance at the weekend, it's just he's not very consistent.

I think Zebo's pace is a huge asset and if he gets space, he'll gain lots of ground. Okay he mightn't get much chance at the weekend but he's also used to defending on the wing at least (how good that defence is remains to be seen).

I think he should start, for his own development as much as anything. It's good to be involved in these kind of games too.

bamboozle

Munster by 7 or less.

PhatPiggins wrote: »

He's played and started a few games for Munster on the wing unless I'm completely losing my marbles.

I wouldn't be an advocate of him being a winger but I think he's a better then Zebo currently is and that'll get him the nod imo.

not trying to knock the guy but is Barnes not far far too slow to play on the wing? Dont do an Earls on him, let him play and develop in one position.

Llanelli had so much luck against Northampton i'm wondering if they'll run out of luck tomorrow, hope so!

ed7890

Barnes has played on the wing a bit before alright. He played there in the Scarlets away game last year in the Magners, him on one wing, Zebo on the other. I think he's more suited to the center though, but he can do a job if you are stuck as was shown in the Leinster game.

Risteard

D Hurley; J Murphy, W Chambers, L Mafi, S Zebo; R O'Gara, C Murray; W du Preez, D Varley, BJ Botha; D Ryan, P O'Connell capt; P O'Mahony, N Ronan, J Coughlan; Replacements: D Fogarty, M Horan, J Hayes, D O'Callaghan, D Leamy, T O'Leary, I Keatley, D Barnes.

Happy to see Hurley at FB. Played well there over the past two weeks.

wixfjord

Scarlets:

Scarlets v Munster Friday 10th December 2011: 15 Liam Williams 14 George North, 13 Scott Williams 12 Jon Davies, 11 Sean Lamont, 10 Rhys Priestland, 9 Gareth Davies, 1 Iestyn Thomas, 2 Matthew Rees (capt), 3 Rhys Thomas, 4 Sione Timani, 5 Damian Welch 6 Aaron Shingler, 7 Rob McCusker, 8 Ben Morgan

Replacements: 16 Ken Owens, 17 Phil John, 18 Deacon Manu, 19 Kieran Murphy, 20 Jonathan Edwards, 21 Tavis Knoyle, 22 Stephen Jones, 23 Viliame Iongi.

Full team afaik.
Davies and North both make it.
Second row looks v. weak.

Benny Cake

Munster by more than 7.

Must be disappointing for Barnes but IMO he hasn't show enough in his starts this year to suggest he is ready for this level...

CIARAN_BOYLE

D Ryan keeps his place in the starting line up. Good for him.

Benny Cake

Munster by more than 7.

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

D Ryan keeps his place in the starting line up. Good for him.

Delighted he was kept there, hopefully this follows through to the Irish team...

ed7890

Hurley at fullback and Murphy on the wing is the way to go, I think the change will suit both players better. Not 100% sold on Zebo yet, his defensive work isn't great and he doesn't pass. I'll be happy out to be wrong though.

kevinh2011

Scarlets by 7 or less.

Benny Cake wrote: »

Must be disappointing for Barnes but IMO he hasn't show enough in his starts this year to suggest he is ready for this level...

Glad he's on the bench, my heart stopped every time he got the ball in the previous two HC matches. He's not up to it at this level (yet).

Webbs

Munster by 7 or less.

There is some serious gas and muscle in the scarlets backline. Munsters kicking from hand is going to have to be spot on as is their efforts to keep a stranglehold upfront and play a 10man game of rugby

thomond2006

Munster by more than 7.

I'm disappointed for Barnes but at least Zebo is starting.

Also big congrats to ROG on reaching 100 caps!

profitius

Barnes could probably do with a break but he is a much better defender than Mafi.

Glad to see Hurley playing at 15 again. Its his best position and he has been superb there in the last few games. Murphy is also a better winger.

Benny Cake

Munster by more than 7.

profitius wrote: »

Glad to see Hurley playing at 15 again. Its his best position and he has been superb there in the last few games. Murphy is also a better winger.

Agree that Hurley is the best current option at fullback at the moment. My heart is still in my mouth with him under the high ball! Think it goes back to the HC final in 2008...

bamboozle

Munster by 7 or less.

all lot will depend on Ronan getting around the park and slowing down rucks, cant let their backs have the opportunity to cut lose.

phog

Big game for Munster and their H/C hopes for the season, this could go either way. Missing Dougie is a huge loss but it now gives youth a chance and I hope they grab with both hands.

Best of Luck to ROG getting his 100th H/C cap, a great servant to Munster rugby. ERC rugby have his stats from his previous 99 caps here, impressive reading. He had a winning H/C streak of 13 games on the trot, that's some achievement. I hope he ends the day with a win.

bleg

Scarlets have a 2 point handicap on PP.

CiaranMT

Webbs wrote: »

There is some serious gas and muscle in the scarlets backline. Munsters kicking from hand is going to have to be spot on as is their efforts to keep a stranglehold upfront and play a 10man game of rugby

No better man than ROG then!

Quint2010

Scarlets by 7 or less.

Benny Cake wrote: »

Delighted he was kept there, hopefully this follows through to the Irish team...

Think Cullen, Toner, Tuohy et al might have something to say about that..

Benny Cake

Munster by more than 7.

Quint2010 wrote: »

Think Cullen, Toner, Tuohy et al might have something to say about that..

Calm down quint, I was referring to DOC losing his place... And don't you think Toner would have to nail down a spot with Leinster before he is a legitimate candidate for a Ireland starting position?

Cpt_Blackbeard

Quint2010 wrote: »

Benny Cake wrote: »

Delighted he was kept there, hopefully this follows through to the Irish team...

Think Cullen, Toner, Tuohy et al might have something to say about that..

Tuohy will but, neither Toner or Cullen are definites to be making the squads. If we continue with only 4 locks, Toner, Cullen and McCarthy will probably all miss out.

wixfjord

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Tuohy will but, neither Toner or Cullen are definites to be making the squads. If we continue with only 4 locks, Toner, Cullen and McCarthy will probably all miss out.

Who do you reckon the fourth should be Cpt?!

Quint2010

Scarlets by 7 or less.

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Tuohy will but, neither Toner or Cullen are definites to be making the squads. If we continue with only 4 locks, Toner, Cullen and McCarthy will probably all miss out.

Going on form and gametime-Toner and Cullen have just as much right to be in the Ireland squad as DOC. Also just because Ryan had usurped DOC in the Munster first XV doesnt necessary give him an automatic right to DOC's place in the irish team.

Quint2010

Scarlets by 7 or less.

wixfjord wrote: »

Who do you reckon the fourth should be Cpt?!

POC for me.

Cpt_Blackbeard

wixfjord wrote: »

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Tuohy will but, neither Toner or Cullen are definites to be making the squads. If we continue with only 4 locks, Toner, Cullen and McCarthy will probably all miss out.

Who do you reckon the fourth should be Cpt?!

It will be DOC. Just because he isn't starting for Munster doesn't mean he has become a bad player. The central contract will ensure he is in the squad too.

I'd like McCarthy to be involved were he a few years younger but, he's getting too old now to warrant the inclusion imo. We would be better served capping a youngster, rather than bringing him up to speed.

Cullen is getting too old and if he wasn't good enough to get into the match day squad over the summer, he definitely won't be next year.

Toner is playing well but, I can't see him ever being good enough internationally. Just because he is the best lock Leinster have produced in 10 years, and doesn't mean he is great. Maybe he would be worth the place until Nagle/Foley come on the scene but, he'll only reach the Jennings level of very good HC player imo.

wixfjord

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

It will be DOC. Just because he isn't starting for Munster doesn't mean he has become a bad player. The central contract will ensure he is in the squad too.

I'd like McCarthy to be involved were he a few years younger but, he's getting too old now to warrant the inclusion imo. We would be better served capping a youngster, rather than bringing him up to speed.

Cullen is getting too old and if he wasn't good enough to get into the match day squad over the summer, he definitely won't be next year.

Toner is playing well but, I can't see him ever being good enough internationally. Just because he is the best lock Leinster have produced in 10 years, and doesn't mean he is great. Maybe he would be worth the place until Nagle/Foley come on the scene but, he'll only reach the Jennings level of very good HC player imo.

Fireball07

Munster by 7 or less.

I think, being realistic, DOC will be in the Ireland squad for the 6N, barring an injury.

The last time I saw Tuohy was that game against Glasgow and he was, like the whole Ulster team, very unimpressive. But assuming he's in form, I suppose he'll get in. Toner has a chance though.


As for the Munster team picked, it's not that surprising really. Zebo starts because he's fit and the only other winger in the squad. Mafi replaces Barnes who hasn't been that convincing at HC level. And Murray replaces TOL, Leamy stays on the bench.

It's as strong as we could put out. I might have started Leamy though, he's a good ball-carrier and we'll need that, Coughlan hasn't hit last year's heights yet this season.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Have to say it's a very impressive second back 3 for a Munster team. Both Murphy and Hurley are solid players and Zebo is very talented. My only worry about the backline is that we are missing the experienced calming presence that Dougie brings .

Hurley does look very vocal though which will be needed to control his 2 wingers. Hopefully the centres will click too.