Connacht to meet IRFU over financial plight

wixfjord

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/1207/1224308683471.html

Some very interesting comments.

CONNACHT CHIEF executive Gerry Kelly is to meet the IRFU management committee today to discuss the ongoing financial plight of the province.

Their difficulties were further highlighted by the 15-13 home defeat to Benetton Treviso last Saturday, their eighth successive loss and third straight at The Sportsground.

What was initially greeted as a historic breakthrough season is entering nightmare territory. Qualification for the Heineken Cup, via Leinster winning the competition, only came after four frontline players – Ian Keatley, Fionn Carr, Jamie Hagan and Seán Cronin – had signed for Leinster and Munster (Keatley).

Of 12 players recruited only two have started more than 50 per cent of the Pro 12 fixtures to date.

“It’s professional sport; it is all about money,” said Elwood ahead of Gloucester’s visit to Galway on Saturday afternoon.

“Money and recruitment. The guys put their body on the line and front-up week in, week out but we all need help and assistance.

“But if you want to talk about money go talk to Gerry Kelly. Or talk to the PGB (The Professional Game Board, who were appointed this season with a three-year mandate to improve structures in the province).”

Kelly said yesterday: “I wouldn’t describe it as a crisis but it is difficult. Our season ticket sales have increased from 600 to 3,120 and there has been an improvement of facilities at The Sportsground.

“Since the World Cup final there is 13 matches in a row and that will stretch a small squad like ours. This season the limitations and size of the squad have been exposed more than in an ordinary season.”

Elwood vented his frustrations at having to operate with just 29 full-time players, especially when injury is factored into the equation. “We won the under-20s this year,” said Elwood. “But they are not ready. They are too young. They are not experienced. They are not developed physically. They have to wait their turn and bide their time.

“We have only 29 full-time players. We lost four first-teamers last year. We are not a team that can survive on 29 contracted players and seven development. I have a list here with 17 injuries.

“If you are asking me straight up: we don’t have enough money, we don’t have a big enough budget and we don’t have a big enough squad.”

Gloucester have 38 players registered for the Heineken Cup, while Leinster’s first-team squad currently numbers 41. At present, Connacht’s player wages budget is €3 million, all of which comes from the IRFU. The other provinces receive more funds from the union because they have more Irish internationals and therefore higher centrally contracted wages.

Connacht sources stated the €3 million for player salaries was 40 per cent of the European champion’s budget but Leinster chief executive Mick Dawson stated the figure of €7.5 million was some way over the actual amount they pay in player wages. “We don’t reveal these figures,” said Dawson yesterday.

Connacht have already begun their recruitment process for next season. But they are going to require financial assistance. Despite dramatic improvements, they still don’t generate anything near the gate receipts enjoyed at Thomond Park, Ravenhill and the RDS (Leinster season ticket sales are 13,500). They don’t compete favourably with their commercial investments either.

The other provinces also receive higher private donations. Leinster’s hugely successful academy is assisted by a patron’s scheme.

“Any coach and any squad are going to look for more money and we are continuously doing that,” said Kelly.

“We need and want a stronger squad and will be talking to the IRFU about that.”

The provinces can contract five foreign players and a sixth who can be naturalised through residency. This will be reduced to four plus one next season.

Connacht’s “plus one” is prop Rodney Ah You, while next October Leinster hooker Richardt Strauss becomes Irish qualified.

“There is no doubt the losing of four starters – Hagan, Cronin, Keatley and Carr had a huge impact on us,” said Kelly.

He added: “If you look at the first weekend of the Heineken Cup only one of them got a game and that was Seán Cronin [off the bench for Leinster].

“We will be working with the IRFU to make sure that doesn’t happen in future.”

Little bit sour at the end there. I've heard this from numerous Connacht fans now, and their argument doesn't get any more sensical. Either you are a development province, or you're not. They are, and yet when players leave them like the above 4 for obviously greener pastures, they complain about it.

Those four going back to their home province was always on the cards. If POD, Maguire, McSharry etc ever make it, they will be brought back too. I mean you can't have it both ways, and it's a no brainer for guys like Hagan, Cronin, Carr and Keatley, who will all get better coaching and be playing with better players, giving themselves a real shot at Ireland caps and HEC glory.

Robbo

wixfjord wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/1207/1224308683471.html

Some very interesting comments.


Little bit sour at the end there. I've heard this from numerous Connacht fans now, and their argument doesn't get any more sensical. Either you are a development province, or you're not. They are, and yet when players leave them like the above 4 for obviously greener pastures, they complain about it.

Those four going back to their home province was always on the cards. If POD, Maguire, McSharry etc ever make it, they will be brought back too. I mean you can't have it both ways, and it's a no brainer for guys like Hagan, Cronin, Carr and Keatley, who will all get better coaching and be playing with better players, giving themselves a real shot at Ireland caps and HEC glory.

Home? Remind me again where Cronin and Keatley are from and where they're playing now?

Not that I'm disagreeing in the main with you. I think the general tone is quite whiney; the poor mouth card isn't really valid considering the money that's gone into the ground through grants and the extra matchday income.

What is a valid point is the relative sizes of the squads.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Connacht’s player wages budget is €3 million, all of which comes from the IRFU.

What happens with their ticket revenue and sponsorship? Does it all go into paying rent and for the new stand and for development officers ect? If so fair enough but I think questions need to be asked if Connacht's entire player wages budget comes from the IRFU

Leinster gets nothing from the IRFU other than central contract money paying the wages Leinster's central contract players. Healy, Ross, Cullen, Heaslip, Redden, Fitzgerald, D'arcy, BOD, and Kearney. That is to say 9 salaries. Leinster also pay rent for the Aviva and their prize money is sucked up by the IRFU as is 50% of Leinster's share gate receipts in knockout matches.

Munster is in the same situation as Leinster except the IRFU also gave them their mortgage on Thomond but Munster are paying that back with interest. Flannery, POC, DOC, Leamy, Wallace, O'Leary, O'Gara, and Earls are Munsters centrally contracted players so thats 8 salaries. They get little to nothing else from the IRFU.

wixfjord

Robbo wrote: »

Home? Remind me again where Cronin and Keatley are from and where they're playing now?

Not that I'm disagreeing in the main with you. I think the general tone is quite whiney; the poor mouth card isn't really valid considering the money that's gone into the ground through grants and the extra matchday income.

What is a valid point is the relative sizes of the squads.

Sorry obviously I was referring to Carr and Hagan. Hagan in particular seems to be a bugbear of Connachts.

I'm all pro Connacht's plight, but quotes like the above don't endear fans of other provinces to it. I mean they should look at the recruitment and coaching structures if they want to make quick improvements.

There have been some absolutely awful signings by Connacht in the past year. NOC, Fa'lii etc.

My main point is though, either you want to be a development province, or you don't. You can't get guys like Carr and Cronin on a development basis see them play well as they grow in age and conditioning, and then expect them to stay with you. The best of both worlds isn't possible, and it was stupid of the IRFU and Connacht to think it was imo.

The issue that arises when a player is playing well and getting to 22/23 and wants to go home to prove himself on a high stage wasn't thought of.

CIARAN_BOYLE

wixfjord wrote: »

Sorry obviously I was referring to Carr and Hagan. Hagan in particular seems to be a bugbear of Connachts.

In fairness thats because their Chairman came out and announced an extension for him when none had been signed. People out West seem to blame Hagan for walking out on a contract when there had been none signed.

profitius

Connacht have a point. They should get equal funding for a few seasons and see what they do with it. The small squad is destroying their season and this is an important season for them.

If the IRFU want to help Connacht they should go about it the correct way and not half arsed. Its like a tradesman cutting corners, it doesn't work in the long run.

I know I've been saying it alot but it would make absolute sense for a few fringe players from the other provinces to move to Connacht for a few months. Stringer went to Saracens which is good business for Saracens, Stringer and Munster. Theres no reason why Billy Holland, Nagle, Hudson etc would not benefit from going there.

wixfjord wrote: »

There have been some absolutely awful signings by Connacht in the past year. NOC, Fa'lii etc.

Indeed. Hopefully EE has learned his lesson and go for young unproven Irish talent if he is to take a gamble on players ie McSharry.

JustinDee

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Leinster gets nothing from the IRFU other than central contract money paying the wages Leinster's central contract players. Healy, Ross, Cullen, Heaslip, Redden, Fitzgerald, D'arcy, BOD, and Kearney. That is to say 9 salaries...

Munster is in the same situation as Leinster except the IRFU also gave them their mortgage on Thomond but Munster are paying that back with interest. Flannery, POC, DOC, Leamy, Wallace, O'Leary, O'Gara, and Earls are Munsters centrally contracted players so thats 8 salaries. They get little to nothing else from the IRFU.

The underwriting central contracts isn't next-to-zip. The IRFU also funds Academies, development programmes, refereeing and coaching courses, representitive level of age-group and women's rugby. A certain number of development officers are also directly employed by the union as opposed to the branch. This also saves on the wages bill.

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Leinster also pay rent for the Aviva and their prize money is sucked up by the IRFU as is 50% of Leinster's share gate receipts in knockout matches

Everyone pays venue hire fee, including the IRFU, for the Aviva stadium which is run by the Aviva Stadium company, comprised of both IRFU and FAI.

The provincial branches are just that: branches of the IRFU. They are not seperate entities, which is in fact a composite entity setup by the clubs of Ireland.

Shelflife

Ive no problem with players leaving Connacht and trying to better themselves.

I have a problem with players leaving us to bolster up the other squads. In the example given of the four who left last year, Only one has played HC rugby, in the two games so far Cronin has played the equivilant of one game , Keatly has sat on the bench for two games and Carr and O Hagen didnt even make the bench.

So Instead of having 640mins of HC rugby played they managed 80, to me thats a waste of talent that Connacht badly needs that would make them competitive.

It defeats the point of taking players from us if you are not going to use them apart from gap fillers when the need arises. Its an underuse of Irelands scarce resources.

From a Connacht point of view its heartbreaking to have 4 players who would make a big difference to our season playing bit parts for the clus they went to.

JustinDee

Shelflife wrote: »

I have a problem with players leaving us to bolster up the other squads

The primary reason for a player leaving a province is because they want to. The decision rests with the player at the end of the day.

wixfjord

Shelflife wrote: »

Ive no problem with players leaving Connacht and trying to better themselves.

I have a problem with players leaving us to bolster up the other squads. In the example given of the four who left last year, Only one has played HC rugby, in the two games so far Cronin has played the equivilant of one game , Keatly has sat on the bench for two games and Carr and O Hagen didnt even make the bench.

So Instead of having 640mins of HC rugby played they managed 80, to me thats a waste of talent that Connacht badly needs that would make them competitive.

It defeats the point of taking players from us if you are not going to use them apart from gap fillers when the need arises. Its an underuse of Irelands scarce resources.

From a Connacht point of view its heartbreaking to have 4 players who would make a big difference to our season playing bit parts for the clus they went to.

You see that's the exact thing I'm talking about. In my view, and obviously in their view too, it's better to move to Leinster or Munster and learn from better players, test yourself against the big boys and have the chance of success. Keatley obviously wanted to move to learn from ROG and step into that role, Cronin has been getting huge amounts of gametime, and Hagan and Carr are just not good enough yet, but judging by Schmidt's

You've got to take a look at the players view here, and it's a no brainer for them to be ambitious and go to a side like Leinster, where they will get chances to get into the team and win silverware.

Playing HEC rugby in a Connacht team, which was never going to get out of it's group, is a much poorer option than backing yourself, going to Leinster or Munster and challenging for your position.

Without doubt, Carr and Hagan will be better players by the end of the year than they would be had they stayed west, and Cronin is already a better player.

wixfjord

kazzdee wrote: »

I'm all for people getting experience with other teams, fair play to them, but at least replace what has been lost.

Its impossible to build a team if it is not given the time to develop as a successful squad before being gutted by other (Irish!) teams, players being funnelled out of it to other squads who have relatively no need for them.

They haven't the buying power of the bigger clubs as they are only getting established due to Rugby's rising popularity outside the pale. So how are they supposed to compete if they are not given the support they deserve, at least for the first year that they've actually managed to qualify for the Heineken cup which was a great achievement. To qualify and then to be let bomb out is a shameful thing to allow to happen considering they had so much potential. People have no problem advertising and promoting that all four provinces are in, maybe better spend cash on maintaining that fact.

Take for example the last Ospreys fixture: a prime example of how the team has suffered, they won against them last year, now they cant even beat Treviso at home. Morale must be as low in the team as it is with the supporters.

What?! First of all, Connacht didn't qualify.
Secondly, I agree they're underfunded, but the signings have been replaced, and Connacht now have more NIQs than any other team iirc, yet they have bought very poorly.

The fact that the team can't even beat Treviso at home is no example of how they're suffering from lack of budget, it's the fact that the team is poor, and the coach isn't getting the most out of them.

kazzdee

Oops, thats why I deleted my post!
Im just mad that the team is under-performing tbh looking for someone to blame, maybe it IS the coaching staff...? I find it easier to blame the establishment rather than the team I have grown to support and actually have a little pride in. But having all our better players leave and none of note replacing them. The results are disappointing, its just maddening.

totallegend

profitius wrote: »

Connacht have a point. They should get equal funding for a few seasons and see what they do with it. The small squad is destroying their season and this is an important season for them.

If the IRFU want to help Connacht they should go about it the correct way and not half arsed. Its like a tradesman cutting corners, it doesn't work in the long run.

I know I've been saying it alot but it would make absolute sense for a few fringe players from the other provinces to move to Connacht for a few months. Stringer went to Saracens which is good business for Saracens, Stringer and Munster. Theres no reason why Billy Holland, Nagle, Hudson etc would not benefit from going there.

Yes and no; we touched on this in the 'Stringer goes to Saracens' thread, i.e. there is no point filling Connacht with youngsters without a few older heads in the mix as well. If you look at the current first XV, you would pick out maybe JOC, Muldoon and Duffy as having good experience of top-level rugby, exposure to national squads etc. That's not enough. If the 'spine' of the team is 2, 8, 9, 10, then Connacht are way off where they need to be.

What's the solution? Throwing money at the problem ain't it. Trying to entice the likes of Stringer, maybe Mick O'Driscoll, to go to Connacht to share their experience and knowledge of the game would help, but if Connacht are struggling to qualify for the HC, then players aren't going to be interested and you're into a vicious circle.

BTW, the IRFU have let two quality players in Jason Harris-Wright and Cillian Willis leave these shores already this year, could a place not have been found for them out west?

porterbelly

wixfjord wrote: »

What?! First of all, Connacht didn't qualify.
Secondly, I agree they're underfunded, but the signings have been replaced, and Connacht now have more NIQs than any other team iirc, yet they have bought very poorly.

The fact that the team can't even beat Treviso at home is no example of how they're suffering from lack of budget, it's the fact that the team is poor, and the coach isn't getting the most out of them.

We have signed poorly yes, but we haven't the money to fund the signing of proven NIQ's like Howlett or Nacewa et al

The players we sign are the bottom of the barrel who are willing to come on the cheap and there's always a risk factor in that, but what choice do we have when alot of Irish players would rather play 'A' rugby or AIL in other provinces than try their hand with us ??

McSharry came because he he sent dvd's of his AIL games in the hope of getting a trial and he won a contract off the back of it. He showed a desire to play for us, many players who don't get games in other provinces would rather stay there and play for us.

29 senior players is pitiful when you see the loaded squads in Munster and Leinster. Ok so they generate their own cash etc etc, but I fully believe that you have to invest in something properly to give it a chance of succeeding and we're not getting that chance. We are not a development province as outlined in the new stuctures last December. We are 1 of 4, or at least that's what officials and management were led to believe. We need to see evidence that this is the case

siltirocker

Great points being made on both sides of the argument regarding Connacht 'Former 4' (but a few misinformed).

I'm going to put out my account of how things transpired with them.

(Although he did not want to leave this year), Connacht fans had no problem with Cronin leaving. It made sense, he was ready for 22/23 man Heineken Cup rugby and is going to be integral in Leinster and Ireland's plans. We pick a guy up from AIL that was overlooked by their home province, give him game time, he moves forward in his game. DEVELOPMENT PROVINCE WIN. No arguments and none have even been whispered in the Clan Terrace/Bar.

Keatley is a similiar story, whilst he had said he would of liked to have stayed, he was told exactly what the plan for him was in Munster(; same as Warwick's role when he left Connacht and the prospect of replacing ROG as Munster's 10 in the next 12-24 months). . . and well, you don't say no to that. Connacht's fans have no problem with that, though Keatley being Connacht main man being frustrating but understanding.

Fionn Carr moved to the most impressive back 3 in Europe to fill a gap when / if someone was rested or injured, making up the numbers of the squad. The one year deal says it all for me. Connacht could have certainly used him this year as he could of used them. But on the otherside of the debate, Fionn Carr did not want to stay in Connacht and was pushed into his previous extension. It seemed to be acknowledged nationwide that he was sussing out deals with Northampton, Gloucester & Ulster. When the Ulster deal seemed wrapped up it fell through because they wouldn't give him a long enough contract. It funds allocated to Fionn Carr by Connacht were spent on McCrea & Vainikolo. He was in limbo and was picked up by Leinster with a one year deal on the advise of the IRFU who wanted the player kept in the loop.

Hagan is going nowhere at Leinster it seems. And Ah You is going nowhere with Connacht. But the potential of Leinster was the same as Keatley's with Munster. Hagan is what, like 24. Mike Ross is 32/33. It's obvious why he took the chance. Now whilst I'm pretty sure how things went down with the previous lot, Hagan I'm not so sure. It's seems he agreed verbally to a new two year deal (which he DID do!), the rumour is because of a lack of interest from other clubs, then at the zero hour an offer from the Exiles came in at which point the IRFU moved to keep him in the country; how they would have put him to Leinster or any thing after that I am unsure. But again you can't blame him, on paper him going to Leinster looked good and if he took his chance (which he hasn't) he might have quietly had a look in at the 6 nations, which he probably won't now tbh.

So lads regarding the 'Former 4' there is ya's and na's on both sides of the argument.
- Cronin was done developing in Galway.
- Keatley was Connacht's MVP no one can deny that but no one could say no to the offer he had and if Connacht weren't in the Heineken he would've rued staying.
- Carr shouldn't have gone. He's not needed elsewhere, he has nothing to offer Irish rugby (at the moment) except being Connacht's winger (and goal kicker if he came back, imagine the amount of points he'd rack up in a year). He is not needed elsewhere and for those who say he'll learn more, better, etc at Leinster. . . I think playing againt Medard and Clerc would be more of a learning curve than training with McFadden or Dave Kearney and playing against Young Munster or someone on a Sunday.
- Hagan is desperately needed by Connacht, but the prospect was too good to refuse even if the move was handled poorly.

wixfjord

porterbelly wrote: »

We have signed poorly yes, but we haven't the money to fund the signing of proven NIQ's like Howlett or Nacewa et al

The players we sign are the bottom of the barrel who are willing to come on the cheap and there's always a risk factor in that, but what choice do we have when alot of Irish players would rather play 'A' rugby or AIL in other provinces than try their hand with us ??

McSharry came because he he sent dvd's of his AIL games in the hope of getting a trial and he won a contract off the back of it. He showed a desire to play for us, many players who don't get games in other provinces would rather stay there and play for us.

29 senior players is pitiful and when you see the loaded squads in Munster and Leinster. Ok so they generate their own cash etc etc, but I fully believe that you have to invest in something properly to give it a chance of succeeding and we're not getting that chance. We are not a development province as outlined in the new stuctures last December. We are 1 of 4, or at least that's what officials and management were led to believe. We need to see evidence that this is the case

Well first of all, Connacht is seen as a development province, but if you're not that, then why the calls for young talent to move there?! As I say, you just can't have it both ways.

I'm on record at the start of the season as saying that this could be a disaster of a season for Connacht, and the fact is they never replaced players who they knew were due to go.

I fully disagree with your point that a lot of guys would rather flounder in a big province than play at Connacht. It comes down to ambition, and it's all well and good playing in the HEC for Connacht and knowing you'll be beaten, but the four that moved saw that they needed to move to further their career. Surely you can't begrudge anyone that?

Do you really think that Hagan or Cronin would be better served with another year at Connacht? With the rumblings about Hagan's lack of conditioning I don't.

Either it is a development province, or it stands on it's own two feet and grows itself. Let's restate again that Connacht did not qualify for that HEC off their own back, and won't do so this year again, unless and Irish team wins the tournament.

Jedwardian

It is true that Connacht don't have the finances to go after top talent and must try to pick up unpolished players and turn them into stars. There have still been some very poor personnel decisions in the recent past though.

Not picking Cillian Willis enough lead to his brief retirement. He went on to flourish at Leinster and is getting a lot of time on the field with Sale. Would Connacht be better off with him or with Paul O'Donohoe and Dave Moore?

Every man and his dog could see that Niall O'Connor wasn't up to scratch for Ulster, kicking erratically and showing very little in the way of attacking flair but he still picked up a two year contract at Connacht. Who authorized that contract?

There's no point in denying that Connacht aren't dealt a weaker hand than the other provinces and they are right to be kicking up a fuss and fighting their corner for whatever they can get. However they must be an awful lot smarter with how they invest in new players. Their track record of new signings over the last two or three seasons is desperately poor. That's the one area where they've fallen down since splitting with Michael Bradley. For all his faults, Bradley had a good eye for talent as unheralded players such as Andrew Farley, Brett Wilkinson, Mike McCarthy, Ray Ofisa, George Naoupu, Paul Warwick and Niva Ta'auso would testify.

Webbs

wixfjord wrote: »

What?! First of all, Connacht didn't qualify.
Secondly, I agree they're underfunded, but the signings have been replaced, and Connacht now have more NIQs than any other team iirc, yet they have bought very poorly.

Have they bought poorly or have they bought all they could afford? I suspect its a bit of both.

Am sure the majority of Connacht fans have no objection to being a development province if the likes of Cronin is used as an example where a player has taken the next step up and is now playing at the highest level whether that be HC or the top Rabo12 fixtures.

However using Hagan as the flip side I would suggest that he would benefit more from playing against the likes of Poux, Servat, Jones, Healy, etc than against someone at AIL level.
The IRFU have a responsibility here to step in and advise these players that perhaps they should wait a couple of more years so that when they move they are in a similar position to Cronin and be first team squad players at the very least

porterbelly

Willis got a good few starts and plenty of time off the bench. He wasn't great for us.

There were no other IQ 10's out there to my knowledge who we could bring in other than O Connor. Steenson and Staunton had signed new contracts across the water and I doubt they'd have been interested, especially without any financial incentive.

wixfjord

porterbelly wrote: »

Willis got a good few starts and plenty of time off the bench. He wasn't great for us.

There were no other IQ 10's out there to my knowledge who we could bring in other than O Connor. Steenson and Staunton had signed new contracts across the water and I doubt they'd have been interested, especially without any financial incentive.

But does that say more about the coaching staff than anything?
He was good for Leinster and is now playing for an Aviva club.

wixfjord

Webbs wrote: »

Have they bought poorly or have they bought all they could afford? I suspect its a bit of both.

Am sure the majority of Connacht fans have no objection to being a development province if the likes of Cronin is used as an example where a player has taken the next step up and is now playing at the highest level whether that be HC or the top Rabo12 fixtures.

However using Hagan as the flip side I would suggest that he would benefit more from playing against the likes of Poux, Servat, Jones, Healy, etc than against someone at AIL level.
The IRFU have a responsibility here to step in and advise these players that perhaps they should wait a couple of more years so that when they move they are in a similar position to Cronin and be first team squad players at the very least

Well he'd be playing against LHs like Healy in training every day!
My point is, he's obviously a good prop, but it's been said he's not good enough or fit enough for Leinster yet. Now, in the case of players like Strauss, Wright, Ross etc, Leinster have shown they can dramatically improve front rows given time. Hagan is being coached by Feek and Gibbes, two of the best in Europe, so obviously he's in a better position than he was last year.

With regards the purchases, well, I don't know about you, but I knew enough about NOC, POD and Macrea for example to see that they weren't good enough for HEC level.

its_phil

wixfjord wrote: »

Do you really think that Hagan or Cronin would be better served with another year at Connacht? With the rumblings about Hagan's lack of conditioning I don't.
Let's restate again that Connacht did not qualify for that HEC off their own back, and won't do so this year again, unless and Irish team wins the tournament.

Well people were calling for him to be in the WC squad on the back of his performances for Connacht so I don't think it would have done any harm. Hagan should have in my opinion stayed for one more year and gone home,it would have been better for his game. But I cant criticize him for going back to Leinster,because its his home and his family and friends live there.

And on your final point we actually finished ahead of Leinster in the 2002/2003 Celtic League (http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/matchcentre/table.php?includeref=2272&season=2002-2003) and Leinster still entered the HC, so I dont think it's fair to be made feel like a poor relation because your win qualified us for the HC. Don't get me wrong I am appreciative of Leinster winning and gaining us qualification and I'd cheer for Leinster before Munster,but I wont have it slammed down my throat that Leinster won the HC and Connacht only qualified because of that,when in 2002 you qualified based on nothing for a seasons work we did two points better in.

its_phil

wixfjord wrote: »

Well he'd be playing against LHs like Healy in training every day!

With regards the purchases, well, I don't know about you, but I knew enough about NOC, POD and Macrea for example to see that they weren't good enough for HEC level.

You think training with Healy is better than game experience?I dont know how many times I have heard pro's say you cant recreate match experience in training.

If you can point out better IQ players than these 3 that will move west please be my guest and tell me?

wixfjord

its_phil wrote: »

Well people were calling for him to be in the WC squad on the back of his performances for Connacht so I don't think it would have done any harm. Hagan should have in my opinion stayed for one more year and gone home,it would have been better for his game. But I cant criticize him for going back to Leinster,because its his home and his family and friends live there.

And on your final point we actually finished ahead of Leinster in the 2002/2003 Celtic League (http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/matchcentre/table.php?includeref=2272&season=2002-2003) and Leinster still entered the HC, so I dont think it's fair to be made feel like a poor relation because your win qualified us for the HC. Don't get me wrong I am appreciative of Leinster winning and gaining us qualification and I'd cheer for Leinster before Munster,but I wont have it slammed down my throat that Leinster won the HC and Connacht only qualified because of that,when in 2002 you qualified based on nothing for a seasons work we did two points better in.

I'm not using it in any way at all! It's a fact, and i'm merely using it to illustrate that, even with these four guys, Connacht were not able to reach their targets.

I don't see how bringing up the 2002 ML table has anything to do with where Connacht are today.

its_phil

wixfjord wrote: »

I'm not using it in any way at all! It's a fact, and i'm merely using it to illustrate that, even with these four guys, Connacht were not able to reach their targets.

I don't see how bringing up the 2002 ML table has anything to do with where Connacht are today.

The top 3 teams in the Magners League last year were Munster,Leinster and Ulster. Call me crazy but as good as the four lads were they were never going to get us in the top 3 but they got us off the foot of the table which was Eric's first goal.

Your reminding me that connacht are in the HC because of Leinster and i'm reminding you Leinster got into the HC in 2003 based on nothing.

wixfjord

its_phil wrote: »

You think training with Healy is better than game experience?I dont know how many times I have heard pro's say you cant recreate match experience in training.

If you can point out better IQ players than these 3 that will move west please be my guest and tell me?

That was a joke ffs. Stop splitting hairs.

Do you think then that these three should have been signed?

Willis, Reid and any one of Leinster's talented backs (Boyle, Hudson, Macken) etc would be easily better than the above.

Listen, it's obvious Connacht have recruited poorly, and that Hagan is in a far better position to push on his career at Leinster. But even if he wasn't, he's a Leinster player, and it's his decision, so I can't see how you'd complain about it.

That comes to the crux of my argument again that if Connacht want to bring in young players from the big provinces, unless they're qualifying for the HEC yearly and doing well, these players will move on once they're called back.

There seems to be confusion even between Connacht fans as to what they want, and what they are.

porterbelly

wixfjord wrote: »

I'm not using it in any way at all! It's a fact, and i'm merely using it to illustrate that, even with these four guys, Connacht were not able to reach their targets.

The point is that if we were able to hold onto them by being in a position to offer them long term contracts the year before which we couldn't becasue the one year contract embargo malarkey, or else being in a position to offer them financially incentive deals to stay (they're key players for us, they're not in the other provinces so we should be able to offer better money), we would be in alot better position now.

Last year we made great progress. We were never going to go from whipping boys to overtaking one of the other provinces who were all in the top 4 in a year. It was a work in progress but we were making strides. We could have targetted 5/6 good players to bring in and build on what we had. Instead our squad was ripped apart and we had to start again.

wixfjord

porterbelly wrote: »

The point is that if we were able to hold onto them by being in a position to offer them long term contracts the year before which we couldn't becasue the one year contract embargo malarkey, or else being in a position to offer them financially incentive deals to stay (they're key players for us, they're not in the other provinces so we should be able to offer better money), we would be in alot better position now.

Last year we made great progress. We were never going to go from whipping boys to overtaking one of the other provinces who were all in the top 4 in a year. It was a work in progress but we were making strides. We could have targetted 5/6 good players to bring in and build on what we had. Instead our squad was ripped apart and we had to start again.

Finally, we're getting to it!
As I've said, this is always going to happen if you bring in another player from a province, and they play well and get recognised by a bigger team.
There's no provison for this scenario in the model of bringing in young players that you guys seem to prescribe to (although you say it's not a development province), so there can be no continuity.

You can't give out about an improved young player wanting to move on and fight for a place in a bigger team.

Amazotheamazing

siltirocker wrote: »

Great points being made on both sides of the argument regarding Connacht 'Former 4' (but a few misinformed).

I'm going to put out my account of how things transpired with them.

(Although he did not want to leave this year), Connacht fans had no problem with Cronin leaving. It made sense, he was ready for 22/23 man Heineken Cup rugby and is going to be integral in Leinster and Ireland's plans. We pick a guy up from AIL that was overlooked by their home province, give him game time, he moves forward in his game. DEVELOPMENT PROVINCE WIN. No arguments and none have even been whispered in the Clan Terrace/Bar.

.

Cronin was offered a development contract from Munster on leaving Munster's Academy, he'd already played senior for Munster. In what way do you think he was overlooked?

connacht offered him a better deal and he took it, but in the long run it's probably hurt Connacht more as that bit of business forced Munster into giving contracts to loads of fringe players that Connacht might otherwise have gotten for trials etc. Now we've 48 or so players on contract, way more than we had when Connacht poached Cronin.

Jedwardian

porterbelly wrote: »

There were no other IQ 10's out there to my knowledge who we could bring in other than O Connor.

I know he has since been forced to retire but would Ian McKinley not have seemed like a viable option? Based on his form of this season, Ian Madigan would have been another good choice. I've no idea if they were approached by Connacht and rejected a move west but neither were contracted to Leinster for the 2011/12 season when the Niall O'Connor transfer was announced.

Also, did Connacht have to pick up an Irish 10? They weren't over the NIQ limit with O'Connor came on board. They re-signed New Zealander Miah Nikora to a new deal and picked up both Fetu'u Vainikolo and Henry Fa'afili after announcing O'Connor was signed so Connacht did have room to bring in a better non Irish qualified outhalf. I think that's a sign of poor recruitment.

I hope I don't come across as a WUM because I really want Connacht to succeed and push for Heineken Cup qualification off their own bat. Four strong provinces is far better for Ireland than three. I think questions should be asked as to how they're spending the admittedly limited resources at their disposal though. Off the field the new board seems to be doing a terrific job growing the support base and commercial side of the business. I'd like that progress to be extended to the product on the field.

its_phil

wixfjord wrote: »

That was a joke ffs. Stop splitting hairs.

Do you think then that these three should have been signed?

Willis, Reid and any one of Leinster's talented backs (Boyle, Hudson, Macken) etc would be easily better than the above.

Listen, it's obvious Connacht have recruited poorly, and that Hagan is in a far better position to push on his career at Leinster. But even if he wasn't, he's a Leinster player, and it's his decision, so I can't see how you'd complain about it.

That comes to the crux of my argument again that if Connacht want to bring in young players from the big provinces, unless they're qualifying for the HEC yearly and doing well, these players will move on once they're called back.

There seems to be confusion even between Connacht fans as to what they want, and what they are.

Willis didnt do the business when he was down here, Reid I dont know enough about tbh but ill take your word for him and we dont need another young winger because there are a lot of talented guys in that position pushing through in our academy like Layden and Boland .We need experienced guys.

its_phil

wixfjord wrote: »

Finally, we're getting to it!
As I've said, this is always going to happen if you bring in another player from a province, and they play well and get recognised by a bigger team.
You can't give out about an improved young player wanting to move on and fight for a place in a bigger team.

As much as I am disagreeing with you wixfjord, I do agree with you here.

wixfjord

its_phil wrote: »

Willis didnt do the business when he was down here, Reid I dont know enough about tbh but ill take your word for him and we dont need another young winger because there are a lot of talented guys in that position pushing through in our academy like Layden and Boland .We need experienced guys.

Once again though, mixed messages!
Is it young guys from other provinces you want, or experienced mediocre players from Ulster? Because most seem to want young players to come over, and then for them to stay for life, judging by the comments on the "Magnificent Four".

Would Darren Hudson for example have added to your backline ahead of McCrea? Without doubt.

errlloyd

There is only so much money in the IRFU, we have to decide where to invest it. Its good for Connacht that Leinster, Munster and Ulster win stuff, we're only barely winning at the moment, don't mess with that. Why is it good for Connact we win stuff.

Firstly it generates cash for the IRFU that partly goes into Connacht.

Secondly it develops academies in those provinces that will always send players west for a couple of seasons to develop.

Thirdly if one of those teams wins the challenge or the heino Connact get into the Heino.

Fourthly success by those provinces breeds a culture of rugby in Ireland which promotes the sport in general creating more interest in connacht.

Fifthly, we make Ireland in general a **** place for away clubs to come.

Sixthly we build up fantastic depth of experience in those clubs who may (for tax reasons) choose to retire in connacht.

Finally success builds a large following, who will travel to away games in the sportsground making connact money.

Even if some of them are weak arguments. At least some aren't ****.

Amazotheamazing

porterbelly wrote: »

Willis got a good few starts and plenty of time off the bench. He wasn't great for us.

There were no other IQ 10's out there to my knowledge who we could bring in other than O Connor. Steenson and Staunton had signed new contracts across the water and I doubt they'd have been interested, especially without any financial incentive.

I'll say it again.

Get guys like Ward, Dean, Campbell, etc to hold a training camp for all outhalves in the top teams in the AIL, and former outhalves from the u20's team that didn't get contracts, Dufficy, Burke etc. No offence to Connacht, but just because Leinster (for example) cut a player, doesn't mean he couldn't do a job for Connacht.

Steenson fought his way into the AP after being cut from Ulster, there is talent out there that gets overlooked when they are 20 or 21.

Imo, every ambitious AIL player should have some way of catching the eye of a Connacht coach, they should they "if I do well in the next block of games, Connacht will offer me a training contract".

its_phil

wixfjord wrote: »

Once again though, mixed messages!
Is it young guys from other provinces you want, or experienced mediocre players from Ulster? Because most seem to want young players to come over, and then for them to stay for life, judging by the comments on the "Magnificent Four".

Sorry should have made that more clear,its the guys that are sitting on the bench for the Rabo games and are then playing AIL the week a big Rabo or HC game comes along. They are the guys we need. Having young players is great,but if you look at our backline it is already so young

I'm actually willing to give McCrea more time,he messed up at the weekend but I want to see him in a run of games. Would Hudson be better?Of course, but whether or not he was available to come is different story.

I dont know if Connacht made an approach,but they are plenty of players (not accusing Hudson) who will not come west for game time that will benefit their careers and make them better players.

its_phil

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

No offence to Connacht, but just because Leinster (for example) cut a player, doesn't mean he couldn't do a job for Connacht..

We know,we took McSharry on and look where he is now a two year professional contract

porterbelly

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I'll say it again.

Get guys like Ward, Dean, Campbell, etc to hold a training camp for all outhalves in the top teams in the AIL, and former outhalves from the u20's team that didn't get contracts, Dufficy, Burke etc. No offence to Connacht, but just because Leinster (for example) cut a player, doesn't mean he couldn't do a job for Connacht.

Steenson fought his way into the AP after being cut from Ulster, there is talent out there that gets overlooked when they are 20 or 21.

Imo, every ambitious AIL player should have some way of catching the eye of a Connacht coach, they should they "if I do well in the next block of games, Connacht will offer me a training contract".

Yes this is what McSharry did.

But, and what I've been saying time and time again is that there's been plenty of talented AIL players contacted in the past about coming here and they've had no interest.

Auva'a and John Ryan were approached, that was before Auva'a got a contract in Leinster and Ryan was offered a full contract here as opposed to a development in Munster. Neither wanted to play for Connacht.

It's all well and good saying well why did we sign this fella when we should have signed that fella. I can guarantee you alot of these AIL lads have been approached but haven't wanted to come. It's not for the want of trying.

McKinley before his injury and Madigan both signed new contracts last year at Leinster. They were both sounded out about moving west, both didn't want to. Fair enough, Madigan is going well now, but if Berquist was fit I wonder would he have seen as much gametime. I'd like to think he would have, he's a talented player. When you go down that route what choice is there but to take on Niall O Connor and hope that maybe he can have a new lease of life. Nikora has shown in the past that he's a good player and he's cheap so it was worth keeping him on, and left no room for an NIQ. What other alternatives are there?

Amazotheamazing

porterbelly wrote: »

Yes this is what McSharry did.

But, and what I've been saying time and time again is that there's been plenty of talented AIL players contacted in the past about coming here and they've had no interest.

Auva'a and John Ryan were approached, that was before Auva'a got a contract in Leinster and Ryan was offered a full contract here as opposed to a development in Munster. Neither wanted to play for Connacht.

It's all well and good saying well why did we sign this fella when we should have signed that fella. I can guarantee you alot of these AIL lads have been approached but haven't wanted to come. It's not for the want of trying.

McKinley before his injury and Madigan both signed new contracts last year at Leinster. They were both sounded out about moving west, both didn't want to. Fair enough, Madigan is going well now, but if Berquist was fit I wonder would he have seen as much gametime. I'd like to think he would have, he's a talented player. When you go down that route what choice is there but to take on Niall O Connor and hope that maybe he can have a new lease of life. Nikora has shown in the past that he's a good player and he's cheap so it was worth keeping him on, and left no room for an NIQ. What other alternatives are there?

Ryan was involved in scrum sessions with Munster last year, i'd say he turned down connacht because he was close to a Munster contract. It'll be interesting to see how he does this season.

That being said, considering Munster are willing to loan Stringer to Saracens, you'd think Connacht could make a play for a similar deal for any number of fringe Munster players who now know they aren't in Munster's HEC plans.

[Jackass]

With all due respect to Connacht, they are perceived as a "development" provence, for the players of the other provences. It's not a nice way of putting it, but it's simple fact.

If they want to become a fully competetive Heineken Cup outfit year in year out, then I'm all for supporting that, but if Elwood et al are going to moan about 3 Leinster players and a Munster player returning to their respective provinces (or a swap with Keatley & Cronin), then it's time to stop sending them.

He can complain about them sitting on the bench or having to earn their places at Leinster or Munster, but it's not as valid a complaint as Leinster and Munster saying that they're promising young players go to Connacht to develop and then they can't get them back....

In terms of squad management at Leinster, and competeing on 2 fronts, Carr and Cronin are both essential to Leinster. And whilst White has been signed as second choice 3 at Leinster, Hagan is most definitely the long term project of Leinster and they are gearing him up to take over in about 2 seasons.

Carr has gotten 9 games so far this season, Cronin 5 (and is pushing Strauss very close for first choice), and Hagan has gotten 8 games....

its_phil

[Jackass] wrote: »

He can complain about them sitting on the bench or having to earn their places at Leinster or Munster, but it's not as valid a complaint as Leinster and Munster saying that they're promising young players go to Connacht to develop and then they can't get them back....

But none of the players who went got game time bar Cronin,that's what sickens Eric and the fans.

I have no problem with players moving on to bigger and better things than Connacht because there are bigger and better things than Connacht and that includes the Premiership too. It's so frustrating when you hear they are playing AIL, and then there's 9000 people in the sportsground cheering on some useless NIQ player whos there replacement.

I hope they do break into the teams, I really do because then they are being utilised. I dont wish bad luck or bad results on the 4 lads.I was delighted with Cronin getting that try against Montpellier and a little bit sad because he did that all the time with Connacht. They gave 3/4 years of magnificent and jovial service to Connacht, and every Connacht fan knew they would move eventually. I just don't think it was anticipated to all happen at once. I still think Hagan and Carr should have stayed another year, but going back to their home province can't hold against them.

profitius

Lets look on the bright side. They had to rebuild this season and it hasn't gone well but the future looks bright. Fast forward to 3 years time. There'll be more and more players not getting a look in in the bigger provinces and those players will be contacting Elwood eg McSharry. Their own U20 team will be ready for action too. That will allow them to get some real momentum going.

Some players will want to leave again but they'll have lots of more options to replace those players when the time comes.

This season though is looking like a write off already. Once a small squad starts getting injuries things start to snowball because some players need to play more and they're not fresh physically or mentally and its hard for any team to win in those circumstances.

profitius wrote: »

Connacht have a point. They should get equal funding for a few seasons and see what they do with it. The small squad is destroying their season and this is an important season for them.

If the IRFU want to help Connacht they should go about it the correct way and not half arsed. Its like a tradesman cutting corners, it doesn't work in the long run.

I know I've been saying it alot but it would make absolute sense for a few fringe players from the other provinces to move to Connacht for a few months. Stringer went to Saracens which is good business for Saracens, Stringer and Munster. Theres no reason why Billy Holland, Nagle, Hudson etc would not benefit from going there.


Indeed. Hopefully EE has learned his lesson and go for young unproven Irish talent if he is to take a gamble on players ie McSharry.

totallegend wrote: »

Yes and no; we touched on this in the 'Stringer goes to Saracens' thread, i.e. there is no point filling Connacht with youngsters without a few older heads in the mix as well. If you look at the current first XV, you would pick out maybe JOC, Muldoon and Duffy as having good experience of top-level rugby, exposure to national squads etc. That's not enough. If the 'spine' of the team is 2, 8, 9, 10, then Connacht are way off where they need to be.

What's the solution? Throwing money at the problem ain't it. Trying to entice the likes of Stringer, maybe Mick O'Driscoll, to go to Connacht to share their experience and knowledge of the game would help, but if Connacht are struggling to qualify for the HC, then players aren't going to be interested and you're into a vicious circle.

BTW, the IRFU have let two quality players in Jason Harris-Wright and Cillian Willis leave these shores already this year, could a place not have been found for them out west?

They need talent firstly. They can worry about experience after that. As other pointed out, there are players like Hudson etc in the Leinster academy that would be a big improvement on some of their summer signings.

Podge_irl

It is obviously relevant that when most, if not all, of the young Connacht players agreed deals to leave Connacht were in no way guaranteed HEC rugby

jacothelad

its_phil wrote: »

You think training with Healy is better than game experience?I dont know how many times I have heard pro's say you cant recreate match experience in training.

If you can point out better IQ players than these 3 that will move west please be my guest and tell me?

Anyone who signs Niall O'Connor knows feck all squared about rugby. Anyone playing 10 on a regular basis in the AIL is better. A blind man on a galloping horse could see that.

On the Jamie Hagan front, from an outsiders perspective, he looks more and more like Mushy mkII.

CIARAN_BOYLE

JustinDee wrote: »

The provincial branches are just that: branches of the IRFU. They are not seperate entities, which is in fact a composite entity setup by the clubs of Ireland.

My point was that they try to run the professional entities as separate entities and that ticket revenue ect aren't pooled

A few weeks ago there was an interview with Gibbes/Feek I'm not sure which of them about Hagan, basically they were saying that there is some stuff he isn't doing right and that they had a plan to get him right in terms of scrummaging fitness and round the field work. Ross was the benificiary of a similar plan when he arrived so don't give up hope yet about Hagan.

d-gal

After the Treviso game I went thru the Connacht Squad. Around 15 players were up to scratch to play in the Rabo, let alone play in the HC.

Connacht have been pretty much forced to sign deadwood to bulk up the squad (NOC, McCrea, Grace, Fa'afili etc.) because so many players rejected signing with Connacht.
We do have a good spine - Wilkinson/McCarthy/Swift/Muldoon/Ofisa/Duffy
but some of the players around them are just terrible. A few injuries and we are royally screwed. This year I can see Wilkinson leaving (Munster most likely) and I think Muldoon should leave, he really deserves success and he would fit so well into the Munster set-up.
For all our 'potential' developing in the u-20s they are nowhere ready to make the step-up and that is the S&C's fault - who i also think are at fault at Connacht Senior set-up (AhYou and Naupou are horribly out of shape).

Being honest if IRFU are controlling funds and really want to develop Connacht then they really should play a strong hand in sending players from Munster/Leinster/Ulster to Connacht. FFS if Kidney went to the likes of Nagle and said go to Connacht for a few years and it will give you a massive chance of playing for Ireland later I am sure he would consider. What is the point being behind DOC/POC/MOD/Ryan. Ryan is only getting his chance now and he has probably wasted 4/5years in the process. He is 28 now! There is so many examples of it in the other provinces. Croinin/Hagan/Keatley should be prime examples of how much benefit it is for playing for Connacht. Do you really think Croinin would be in the Irish squad if he didn't go to Connacht?
Rather than investing loads of money into Connacht there should be more emphasis from the IRFU to younger players going to Connacht. If they send 5 players and even 1 develops into an Irish International surely that is better than a donkey like NOC or a foreigner journeyman like Fa'afili

CIARAN_BOYLE

d-gal wrote: »

For all our 'potential' developing in the u-20s they are nowhere ready to make the step-up and that is the S&C's fault - who i also think are at fault at Connacht Senior set-up (AhYou and Naupou are horribly out of shape).

I'd blame S&C for Hagan and Willis as well. While Willis was in Connacht he was regularlly injured and never got a period where he was fully fit and able to find form. Leinster have been critical of Hagan's fitness since he arrived.

Fireball07

d-gal wrote: »

After the Treviso game I went thru the Connacht Squad. Around 15 players were up to scratch to play in the Rabo, let alone play in the HC.

Connacht have been pretty much forced to sign deadwood to bulk up the squad (NOC, McCrea, Grace, Fa'afili etc.) because so many players rejected signing with Connacht.
We do have a good spine - Wilkinson/McCarthy/Swift/Muldoon/Ofisa/Duffy
but some of the players around them are just terrible. A few injuries and we are royally screwed. This year I can see Wilkinson leaving (Munster most likely) and I think Muldoon should leave, he really deserves success and he would fit so well into the Munster set-up.
For all our 'potential' developing in the u-20s they are nowhere ready to make the step-up and that is the S&C's fault - who i also think are at fault at Connacht Senior set-up (AhYou and Naupou are horribly out of shape).

Being honest if IRFU are controlling funds and really want to develop Connacht then they really should play a strong hand in sending players from Munster/Leinster/Ulster to Connacht. FFS if Kidney went to the likes of Nagle and said go to Connacht for a few years and it will give you a massive chance of playing for Ireland later I am sure he would consider. What is the point being behind DOC/POC/MOD/Ryan. Ryan is only getting his chance now and he has probably wasted 4/5years in the process. He is 28 now! There is so many examples of it in the other provinces. Croinin/Hagan/Keatley should be prime examples of how much benefit it is for playing for Connacht. Do you really think Croinin would be in the Irish squad if he didn't go to Connacht?
Rather than investing loads of money into Connacht there should be more emphasis from the IRFU to younger players going to Connacht. If they send 5 players and even 1 develops into an Irish International surely that is better than a donkey like NOC or a foreigner journeyman like Fa'afili

What age is Muldoon now? And Wilkinson? Do you think Wilkinson is good enough to play for Ireland (as primary backup to Healy, say?)

I agree with your points. While I would be advocating that Nagle should get more gametime with Munster, if McGahan won't play him, then surely for his own benefit, he should consider the move?

But there's going to come a time that players like Holland, TOD, Deasy and Gleeson may be moved on if they don't make it, as other young players come through. It's not ideal to take the leftovers of other provinces but they could improve Connacht and indeed, improve their own standing and really make it as players. Same with Leinster... production of talented young players in Ireland has hugely increased recently and they have to go somewhere.

[Jackass]

jacothelad wrote: »

On the Jamie Hagan front, from an outsiders perspective, he looks more and more like Mushy mkII.

Ah I think that's harsh.

There's no question that he's been disappointing since signing, but he's had good days in the scrum. He has a long way to go before he's Mushy v2.0. It takes a special type of failure to earn that tag. I'd give him a year to come in and out of team and off the bench and then balance my opinion on that. Props need a lot of time, and remember, he's only the same age as Healy, so has another 13 years or so left in him if Hayes is anything to go by! :pac:

molloyjh

I'm really surprised by some of the comments here re the likes of Hagan and Cronin. These guys obviously felt that they had gained all they could from Connacht and left to progress their career. This doesn't have to happen immediately to be true. Look at Ross and Strauss for example. Neither featured that much in their first season but became invaluable last season. Just because they haven't broken straight into the starting XV of the European champions doesn't mean they aren't learning anything or aren't developing. And it doesn't mean they are doomed to the bench or the A team forever more. It's a bit early to be making any sort of a judgment on what they should or should not have done.

profitius

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm really surprised by some of the comments here re the likes of Hagan and Cronin. These guys obviously felt that they had gained all they could from Connacht and left to progress their career. This doesn't have to happen immediately to be true. Look at Ross and Strauss for example. Neither featured that much in their first season but became invaluable last season. Just because they haven't broken straight into the starting XV of the European champions doesn't mean they aren't learning anything or aren't developing. And it doesn't mean they are doomed to the bench or the A team forever more. It's a bit early to be making any sort of a judgment on what they should or should not have done.

And its interesting now thinking back to last season when people were calling on Hagan to be playing for Ireland. Maybe the Irish coaches thought he wasn't fit enough for international rugby?