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Man drinks 8 pints, kills another in crash, judge thinks alcohol isn't a factor...
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Intent is everything. It is not a complicated principle. Did this guy intend to people with the car? NO. Did he use it like weapon? NONo need for the ad hominems. It doesn't come across very well. A kitchen knife is not classified as a weapon either by your definition but has been used to kill many people. Where you would draw the line is what intrigues me while reading this thread.
A knife is weapon when used like a weapon as is anything used as a weapon, candlestick, rope etc...
It is a riddiculious comparions that a guy shooting at people is the same as a person driving a car drunk. By no extension of what I have said do I approve or think the guy was right just a prsion sentence would not really benifit anybody.0 -
Ok, let's reverse the situation:
If a South African immigrant to Ireland (Emanuel Mendes) had drunk 8 pints and drove the wrong way down a dual carriageway causing the death of a bright young civil engineer (Ronan Cunningham), he would receive a custodial sentence. We would not be seeing so many posters trying to justify his actions.
The sentence is a disgrace.0 -
And you know this how? The back ground of the individual does count. THe history of the indivdual who commits a crime matters. It isn't the value of the victim that is the factor.Ok, let's reverse the situation:
If a South African immigrant to Ireland (Emanuel Mendes) had drunk 8 pints and drove the wrong way down a dual carriageway causing the death of a bright young civil engineer (Ronan Cunningham), he would receive a custodial sentence. We would not be seeing so many posters trying to justify his actions.
The sentence is a disgrace.
How about this the guy who kills somebody during drink driving is over come with guilt and ends up in mental care. The judge gives him the harshest sentence he can when he gets out even though he admit guilt and is remorseful. His son grows up with out a father about and his wife can't stand it so leaves him. He then comes out of prision and ends up sleeping rough with a drug habit. Sounds like a win win situation to me.0 -
How about this for another crazy non-sentence?
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/women-avoid-jail-after-posing-as-gardai-for-theft-bid-2956077.html
Wednesday December 07 2011
TWO women posed as gardai in an attempt to gain access to the home of two elderly bachelors to try and steal money.
Kate O'Brien (21) and Louise Galvin (24) avoided jail when they appeared in court for sentencing yesterday.
O'Brien, of Shoulders Lane, Mallow, Co Cork, and Galvin, of Richmond Green, Buttevant, Co Cork, were arrested on July 20, 2009, as part of an investigation into crimes against elderly people in west Limerick.
Limerick Circuit Court was previously told how one of the men contacted the gardai after the women called to his home near Abbeyfeale claiming to be gardai from Limerick city.
The farmer, who lives with his brother in a remote rural area, was not convinced by the two women, who were not wearing garda uniforms, and shut the door on them.
The court was previously told that when asked why she had targeted the men in this way, O'Brien replied: "To get money."
The bachelors were left distressed by the incident.
Each of the women pleaded guilty to their roles in the incident and it was accepted by the prosecution that their "full and frank admissions" were very significant in the case.
Lawyers representing the defendants, who each have numerous previous convictions, said they wished to apologise for the actions of their clients.
Trouble
In December 2010, Judge Carroll Moran adjourned sentencing for a year, warning the women that he would impose a prison sentence if they caused "any trouble" during that time.
Yesterday, the judge was told that O'Brien had not been in any trouble since but that Galvin had been convicted of dangerous driving and of a theft offence. However, the judge said these offences were "not the most serious" in the context of the hearing.
He imposed a two-year suspended prison sentence on each of the defendants.
Irish Independent
So 2 girls with lots of previous convictions intent on robbing 2 elderly men avoid jail and the judge doesn't regard dangerous driving and theft as serious offences??0 -
I really wish drink wasn't mentioned in serious accidents, the sentence should be the same (high) regardless of drink being involved or not.
In cases where there is clear recklessness whether it's because of alcohol or just being a tool and someone dies the sentencing should be equivalent to manslaughter. Well, if average manslaughter sentences were higher.
Agree wholeheartedly with you on the sentancing , But I think it right and proper that alcohol is mentioned where it is a factor. Firstly it might, just might, make someone else think twice before they go out to drink & drive. Second if someone goes out and makes a concious decision to drink and drive their crime is, if it possible, even greater. They knew what they were doing, they knew their faculties were lessened....and still drove.0 -
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@ Patrick 2010, Thanks for that info.
Its unbeleivable, what sort of justice system do we have in this country ??0 -
cafecolour wrote: »Putting the judge's name into google reveals some absolutely bizarre sentences. And he does love the suspended sentences:
Here, he gives 2 years to a man who slept with a 14 year old boy - who had put up an ad looking for sex and initially said he was 19: http://www.examiner.ie/breaking/ireland/eyaucwojqlau/
But then he gives a suspended sentence (!) to a man who sexually abused a 6 year old boy (!) because the man had been abused himself (!): http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1208/1224308743036.html
And he happily gives out suspended sentences for violent crimes:
He sentences a man who beats his ex-gf bloody to 2 years, suspends all but 9 months: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1130/1224308334244.html
Woman lacerates boyfriend's scrotum, gets a suspended sentence:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1115/1224307584052.html
Man stabs someone with broken glass at a wedding, gets a suspended sentence:
http://www.herald.ie/news/courts/dad-stabbed-wedding-guest-with-glass-shard-2937776.html
However, you deal drugs, with out any violence, and you're definitely going to jail:
16-months for a 'low level' coke dealer:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1130/1224308334209.html
3.5 years(!) to a woman importing cannabis (who seemed to think it legal, since she showed it to the guards!):
http://www.fingal-independent.ie/news/jail-term-for-woman-who-imported-cannabis-2955936.html
So. yer man was lucky he hadn't smoked a spliff before he drove, or the judge would've put him away for a while!
Madness, this judge needs to be struck off !0 -
I think if I killed someone by drink driving, I'd almost want a prison sentence to help cope with the guilt.0
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to be fair.. your reading the newpapers! I imagine there is alot more to the case than was printed. We tend to believe all that we read! i wouldnt be so quick to comment!0
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to be fair.. your reading the newpapers! I imagine there is alot more to the case than was printed. We tend to believe all that we read! i wouldnt be so quick to comment!
To be fair you can be sure of one thing, IF those reports had been inaccurate, even one of them, there would have one hell of a hooo-haaa raised not just by that judge but all his fellow senior members of the Judiciary and the minister of justice as well.
And there would have had to be retractions and apologies from the press...
Yes the accuracy of what we read in the papers leaves a lot to be desired at times, but when dealing with the dependability of the judicial system, a system that when questioned inaccurately could whip you into court a lot quicker than would be the case normally, the press would and will be a lot more carefull than when dealing with us ordinary folks!0 -
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280special wrote: »To be fair you can be sure of one thing, IF those reports had been inaccurate, even one of them, there would have one hell of a hooo-haaa raised not just by that judge but all his fellow senior members of the Judiciary and the minister of justice as well.
That's what I thought until the Daily Mail reported a judge suspended the sentences of 3 girls who brutally beat another girl solely because they were Muslim and thus inexperienced with alcohol.
Turned out to be complete B.S.
That was in the UK but I doubt our Judiciary System is any less laissez faire.0 -
Ray Palmer wrote: »And you know this how? The back ground of the individual does count. THe history of the indivdual who commits a crime matters. It isn't the value of the victim that is the factor.
Why send anyone who is not a scumbag and who kills someone while drink driving to jail then? Ireland is still ridiculously soft on drink driving. Many countries have mandatory sentences for drink driving causing death. Hundreds of thousands of people across the country today are going to read newspapers and see you can get so locked that you drive the wrong way down a motorway and kill someone and get off without jail. That is some message to be sending out, its an absolute disgrace. People are getting off without jail for drink driving causing death way to often and and this leads to a perception that drink driving isnt a serious matter.
By the way, my neice was killed by a drink driver with zero previous convictions and the circumstances weren't nearly as bad as this case, the drink played a part alright but it was a freak accident. And this guy got 18 months. The inconsistency in sentencing if also a disgrace in this country.0 -
Why send anybody to jail unless it does some good would actually be my belief. Massively expensive and unless it prevents them reoffending there seems little point. If it actually does more damage then it is even worse to send them to jail.gimme5minutes wrote: »Why send anyone who is not a scumbag and who kills someone while drink driving to jail then?
I really wouldn't take a few hundred words in a news paper as enough for me to decide a sentence but obviously some people think they are getting enough information to decide. The justice system does need to be addressed but so does the jail system.0 -
Ray Palmer wrote: »Why send anybody to jail unless it does some good would actually be my belief. Massively expensive and unless it prevents them reoffending there seems little point. If it actually does more damage then it is even worse to send them to jail.
I really wouldn't take a few hundred words in a news paper as enough for me to decide a sentence but obviously some people think they are getting enough information to decide. The justice system does need to be addressed but so does the jail system.
that's eactly what I was trying to say..... a few hundred words in the newspaper isnt enough information to decide. Well said!!0 -
Ray Palmer wrote: »Why send anybody to jail unless it does some good would actually be my belief. Massively expensive and unless it prevents them reoffending there seems little point. If it actually does more damage then it is even worse to send them to jail.
Great, so lets just get rid of custodial sentences altogether for drink driving (unless you are a scumbag). Great idea altogether, Im sure the families of the hundreds of people killed a year, by people who deliberately endagered (and ended) the lives of others by drink and driving, will be glad to hear of that.
Maybe we should get rid of custodial sentences for people who rob banks or deal drugs, if they have no previous convictions and have previously been of good character too?
You have a typical attitude of those soft on drink driving...as if it isnt really a crime at all, more like 'bad luck' on the part of the guy who ended up killing others. Drink driving is extremely serious and in other countries it is treated like so. For example, you will get a mandatory two years in France if you drink drive and kill someone. Because the French consider it a big deal if you kill one of their citizens by doing something as reckless as drink driving.0 -
Am I the only one who is even more shocked that he only got banned from driving for 5 years than the non-custodial sentence ?:eek::eek:
He should have been banned from ever driving again for life.0 -
gimme5minutes wrote: »Great, so lets just get rid of custodial sentences altogether for drink driving (unless you are a scumbag). Great idea altogether, Im sure the families of the hundreds of people killed a year, by people who deliberately endagered (and ended) the lives of others by drink and driving, will be glad to hear of that.
They shouldn't have a say in the matter. The law isn't about revenge, it's about rehabilitation.0 -
They shouldn't have a say in the matter. The law isn't about revenge, it's about rehabilitation.
The law isn't about rehabilitation. Its about justice. That's why it's called the Justice system. And there is an aim to rehabilitate criminals as part of that system which is all fine and good.
But there was no justice in this case. It is an absolute disgrace.0 -
gimme5minutes wrote: »The law isn't about rehabilitation. Its about justice. That's why it's called the Justice system. And there is an aim to rehabilitate criminals as part of that system which is all fine and good.
But there was no justice in this case. It is an absolute disgrace.
"Justice is the act of being fair" - In my opinion there is probably some unlikely scenario in which it would be unfair to jail this man, whereas a suspended sentence would be quite fair so as to act as disincentive to others. But I won't make assumptions based on the fraction of the facts that are currently available to us.0 -
Ray Palmer wrote: »Intent is everything. It is not a complicated principle. Did this guy intend to people with the car? NO. Did he use it like weapon? NO
A knife is weapon when used like a weapon as is anything used as a weapon, candlestick, rope etc...
It is a riddiculious comparions that a guy shooting at people is the same as a person driving a car drunk. By no extension of what I have said do I approve or think the guy was right just a prsion sentence would not really benifit anybody.
I,m not disputing the benefit of a prison sentence , just want to give an example
of what happened in my family.
A few years ago a relative of mine knocked down and killed a pedestrian while drink driving, he managed to avoid a prison sentence but got his licence suspended for a long time.
His attitude was that he got away with it and continued drink driving,using back roads to get around.A lot of his freinds regarded him as a bit of a legend in the area... i.e. one who got one over on the local Gardai.
He actually caused untold misery in our family and where he lived...being from a small village.
His only son grew up with the same attitude ...I can drink and drive and no harm done,about nine years ago his son died in a single vehicle accident ..his friends stated to the our family that he drank six pints before driving.
With hindsight maybe if a prison sentence was served a lesson may been learned.0 -
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There have been arguments put forward that the threat of jail time and stiffer sentencing would act as a deterrent.
Here is a case in South Africa where a taxi driver was found guilty of murder for reckless driving.
You'd think that taxi drivers in South Africa would be more careful as a result, but no, here is another report of thirty killed in a head-on crash when the driver lost control of an overloaded taxi carrying 35 people, but only certified to carry 23.
There are numerous studies that show that stiffer penalties are less of a deterrent than better policing. It's the threat of being caught, more than the punishment, that is the deterrent.
South Africa's police force are stretched to the limit so reckless and illegal driving goes unpunished for the majority. The threat of severe punishment has very little effect when the likelihood of being caught is so small.
The same thing applies in Ireland. When last did you see a road-block for random breath testing? It's been over a year for me, and I live in the Dublin commuter belt. Perhaps I'll risk the drive home after our Christmas party this year, chances are good that I'd get away with it.0 -
Ray Palmer wrote: »Why send anybody to jail unless it does some good would actually be my belief. Massively expensive and unless it prevents them reoffending there seems little point. If it actually does more damage then it is even worse to send them to jail.
I really wouldn't take a few hundred words in a news paper as enough for me to decide a sentence but obviously some people think they are getting enough information to decide. The justice system does need to be addressed but so does the jail system.They shouldn't have a say in the matter. The law isn't about revenge, it's about rehabilitation.
What both of you are saying would be great in a liberal arty farty world, wishy washy with love, peace and happiness all over the world.
The real world however is not that.....its a place filled by manipulative people who push the rules of law to the limit, and over, just to gain another dollar.
and here is the killer...............
We ALL do it to some degree, sorry to break that to you.
The issue here is that a guy drinks 8 pints (and again I say yeah right:rolleyes: to that) gets behind the wheel of a car and kills a guy travelling on the wrong side of the road, and he gets off scot free by an incompetent judge who has a track record of incompetent decisions, and Irish people should let this slide?0 -
What both of you are saying would be great in a liberal arty farty world, wishy washy with love, peace and happiness all over the world.
The real world however is not that.....its a place filled by manipulative people who push the rules of law to the limit, and over, just to gain another dollar.
and here is the killer...............
We ALL do it to some degree, sorry to break that to you.
The issue here is that a guy drinks 8 pints (and again I say yeah right:rolleyes: to that) gets behind the wheel of a car and kills a guy travelling on the wrong side of the road, and he gets off scot free by an incompetent judge who has a track record of incompetent decisions, and Irish people should let this slide?
What you fail to see is that I am not a libreal arty farty type I am much more a realist. First off people whining here about it does nothing to change the laws nor punishment, so you are letting it slide not me. I don't think a harsh punishment on everybody does any good so I am not letting it slide.
Another point is people break every rule they think they will get away with. So if you want people not to do something they need to think they will get caught easily. Better to catch people and sentence them in a manner that doesn't cost a ton of money. In fact our current system cost a lot of money becasue people reoffend so much and we pay the legal costs on both sides. Better to stop the person reoffending.
If it cost 50K to have someone in prison for a year how about we put him in jail for 6 months and retrain him with 25k so he doesn't commit a crime again. I just want a cheap lasting solution.
Restitution is a good way of both punishment and keeping costs low. One thing I don't want is somebody to come out more angry and violent than they went in. Lots of people just shouldn't end up in prison.
I will never buy the logic that becasue this guy didn't get a prsion sentence there are a ton of people looking at this that then decide I'll drink and drive because you won't spend anytime in prison. They thought they may get caught will deter them more than anything else would be my logic.
You know a judge will be pretty familiar with legal costs and knows that is partial punishment itself. I don't know why I bother talking to people here as neither parties will actually do anything to change what is there0 -
Your right nothing is going to happen, but first thing tomorrow morning I'm firing off an email to the local TD about this travesty of justice and maybe if enough people do that it could lead to something. I have no vested interest in this case, I dont know either people involved but I have been victim of drunk driving and sick to my balls of people getting off free on drink related charges.
and I'll be the first person to admit yes I did drink and drive back in my youth, am I ashamed about it? Yes I am. There was times I woke up not having a clue where the car was. I'm not going to say I was lucky I never got caught as thats a kop out and if I had got caught I deserved it, I AM going to say I was lucky never to have caused an accident . Would I do it again? I'd like to think I'm mature enough to now say I wouldn't.
Next thing, you are also right that sticking people in a cell in Castlerea Prison is no good.
they might not have Sky Sports at home but they have it there according to some sources.
they might not get 3 square meals a day but at least they get it in prison.
Same goes for a roof over their head,,,,,,,
The way the justice system works is that why shouldnt I commit a crime.
I get a roof over my head, 3 meals a day and I learn more about HOW NOT to get caught the next time I commit a crime, plenty of time to catch up on Sky sports, etc.....
When I do something like that, I call it a holiday and I have to pay for it.
Bring the chain gang to Ireland have them working on road sides morning till night, get them so tired of working they're only fit for bed at end of shift. Have them out in the cold wet miserable mornings that every other worker in Ireland has to endure.
But we have to think of their yuman rights. And I say what rights, they lost their human rights when they knocked down a granny to steal her purse, rob a shop, squander a bank aka sean & friends, maybe then they figure out crime doesnt pay.0 -
Your right nothing is going to happen, but first thing tomorrow morning I'm firing off an email to the local TD ....
Why did you need somebody to point it out that you hadn't done anything?A letter to your TD is pointless as he doesn't really have any say so why bother. There is a reason judicial and political entities must remain apart. If you are going to do something do something worth while.
Anyway human rights do matter and while the criminal hasn't signed anything to say they will act in a particular way the Irish government have. We simply can't do what you have suggested.
If you must do something go educate yourself of penial systems and how they work or don't work . Reality will show you that most harsh punishments are no substition for increased detection. I have never driven a car with any alcohol yet you have and you want a harsh punishment. I have taken keys off people and refused to get a lift off people who have had drink and want to drive.
I am pretty sure this guy regrets his actions and will suffer I don't think his sentence will make somebody think it is ok to drink and drive. You would want to be very strange to killing somebody means you got away scott free. I know you claim there is somebody you know who people think is great for getting away with it and continues to do it. I find that very hard to beleive and if he is do something about that as that is within your power.0
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