Entrapment? - either way it's ridiculous..

kraggy

...that court time and garda time are taken up by this.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1207/1224308683120.html

Long story short.

21 men charged and plead guilty to soliciting females on various streets in Limerick.

The women they were soliciting were gardai posing as prostitutes.

First of all, is that not entrapment? And secondly, if 2 people are consenting adults and are happy to enter in to a financial agreement for basic pleasure, do they really deserve a record and their names in the paper?

(Obviously it's just the mens' names in the paper in this instance, but you know what I mean).

I'm all for the protection of women and obviously trafficking needs to be prevented as much as possible. That's why this trade should be taken off the streets and regulated.

MrJoeSoap

kraggy wrote: »

...that court time and garda time are taken up by this.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1207/1224308683120.html

Long story short.

21 men charged and plead guilty to soliciting females on various streets in Limerick.

The women they were soliciting were gardai posing as prostitutes.

First of all, is that not entrapment? And secondly, if 2 people are consenting adults and are happy to enter in to a financial agreement for basic pleasure, do they really deserve a record and their names in the paper?

(Obviously it's just the mens' names in the paper in this instance, but you know what I mean).

I'm all for the protection of women and obviously trafficking needs to be prevented as much as possible. That's why this trade should be taken off the streets and regulated.

Not happy having your name in the paper, no?

Chuck Stone

It's a stupid moral law that attempts to regulate the behaviour of consenting adults.

Oh and you're paying for the privilege too whether you agree with it or not.

im invisible

Yeah, fine them 450 euro each, that'll cover the police and court costs...

MarkR

Not entrapment if the gardai merely provided a favourable opportunity for the guys to get caught.

Loved the way they listed out the names of the streets that prostitutes can be found on! *Throws notebook behind couch*

latenia

Total entrapment. I presume the cops were young healthy specimens instead of the usual human detritus you'd see walking streets in which case the crimes might never have occurred.

Sid_Justice

I don't know the detail but it is my understanding that paying for sex isn't strictly illegal, it's curb-crawling or soliciting women on the street for sex which is.

Frank Black

If you believe that consenting adults should be able to enter a financial agreement on sex - like I do, then you could say it's entrapment and wrong.

However, if you don't want to live in a city that has streets crawling with prostitutes, pimps and clients - like I don't.

Then it's perfectly acceptable what happened.

mambo

Curious line from
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/men-caught-in-prostitution-sting-by-undercover-gardai-enter-guilty-pleas-2956079.html

"The judge heard from various solicitors representing all accused. They said their clients were sorry for their actions and had no previous convictions. Some were said to be self-employed while others were said to be deeply embarrassed."

MarkR

It's not entrapment. It's giving people enough rope to hang themselves. Find a law book and look up entrapment.

Although I don't like citing wikipedia as a source, they do explain it well..

In criminal law, entrapment is conduct by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit.[1] In many jurisdictions, entrapment is a possible defense against criminal liability. However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime. For example, it is not entrapment for a government agent to pretend to be someone else and to offer, either directly or through an informant or other decoy, to engage in an unlawful transaction with the person (see sting operation). So, a person would not be a victim of entrapment if the person was ready, willing and able to commit the crime charged in the indictment whenever opportunity was afforded, and that government officers or their agents did no more than offer an opportunity.
On the other hand, if the evidence leaves a reasonable doubt whether the person had any intent to commit the crime had it not been for inducement or persuasion on the part of some government officer or agent, then the person is not guilty. For example, if a defendant had purchased illegal drugs from an undercover officer, he may be found not guilty if it is determined that the officer initiated the transaction or aggressively pressed the accused to complete it.
Entrapment holds[citation needed] if all three conditions are fulfilled:
The idea for committing the crime came from the government agents and not from the person accused of the crime.
Government agents then persuaded or talked the person into committing the crime. Simply giving someone the opportunity to commit a crime is not the same as persuading them to commit that crime.
The person was not ready and willing to commit the crime before interaction with the government agents.
Depending on the law in the jurisdiction, the prosecution may be required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was not entrapped or the defendant may be required to prove that he was entrapped as an affirmative defense.

Ray Palmer

No it is not entrapment as the offense is to proposition a person to have sex for money. If the gardai went up to them and said I will have sex with you for money and the person said yes that would be entrapment.

Dancor

http://southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com/images/shows/southpark/vertical_video/season_13/sp_1309_clip07.jpg

BUSTED!!!!

foxyboxer

Jaysus, would they not just crack one off to a copy of Nuts?


:pac:

BraziliaNZ

what a waste of time and money. Prostitution is never going to go away I'm afraid, unless we have some kind of mass spiritual awakening some day. This is unfair and pointless.

El Weirdo

latenia wrote: »

I presume the cops were young healthy specimens...

I doubt that very much.

WindSock

Well I'm not self employed, does that mean I am deeply embarrassed?

danniemcq

shoulda asked to film it,

be classed as making a porno movie not picking up a hooker and therfore be immune from prosicution and if you are brought to court or whatever you can then sue the state for defaming your character.

carfiosaoorl

No its not entrapment. Also you cant call it an agreement between two concenting adults because most of the time it isnt. The vast majority of women who prostitute themselves dont want to do it and many of them as doing it against their will.

tunney

latenia wrote: »

Total entrapment. I presume the cops were young healthy specimens instead of the usual human detritus you'd see walking streets in which case the crimes might never have occurred.

Entrapment is an American concept.

kincsem

Gardai on the streets. That's a first. :rolleyes:

Chuck Stone

latenia wrote: »

Total entrapment. I presume the cops were young healthy specimens

Ban Garda Murphy on the job.

Teyla Emmagan

6 out of the 21 names are Eastern European/Russiany. Interesting. Either they must be more used to paying for s&x, just thought they were far enough from home to get away with it, or are even less likely to be in regular relationships that the Irish guys (for whatever reason).

Hmmmmmm.

kraggy

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

No its not entrapment. Also you cant call it an agreement between two concenting adults because most of the time it isnt. The vast majority of women who prostitute themselves dont want to do it and many of them as doing it against their will.

Eh source?

What makes you think that? Yes it happens but most of the time the woman is on the street of of her own choice. They're mostly Irish on the streets.

It's the likes of prostitutes in apartments that are more likely forced to work. It's an enclosed space booked out for a period of time by a pimp.

carfiosaoorl

kraggy wrote: »

Eh source?

What makes you think that? Yes it happens but most of the time the woman is on the street of of her own choice. They're mostly Irish on the streets.

It's the likes of prostitutes in apartments that are more likely forced to work. It's an enclosed space booked out for a period of time by a pimp.

You can say they are there by choice but nobody would prostitute themselves for the fun of it they do it because they dont have another choice. What source do you need? Common sense should tell you that. Any guy that goes with a prostitute and thinks that she is completely up for it is delusional.

Mindkiller

MarkR wrote: »

It's not entrapment. It's giving people enough rope to hang themselves. Find a law book and look up entrapment.

Although I don't like citing wikipedia as a source, they do explain it well..

So wait, when Bodie pleaded entrapment in season 3 of The Wire and got off, was it really entrapment?

Ellis Dee

I'm not sufficiently familiar with the law in Ireland, but wonder what the position would be if fellows who proposition women on the street for sex begin by asking the woman: "Hi, are you a Garda, by any chance?" If she then replies "No", he can continue by asking her what she'll charge him for a ride, etc. ---

Would it be entrapment on the part of a Garda to deny what she was a police officer/decoy and then allow the prospective "client" to continue propositioning? If it emerges that it is, it won't take long for fellows looking for a bit of jiggy-jiggy to learn to ask that question every time.;);)

This could easily be tested by fellows using their mobile phones to record the conversation, or by investigative journalists who might prefer the Gardai to put their time and effort into investigating crimes like burglaries that actually have clear victims.:)

Does anyone know what the legal position might be?

Sin City

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

No its not entrapment. Also you cant call it an agreement between two concenting adults because most of the time it isnt. The vast majority of women who prostitute themselves dont want to do it and many of them as doing it against their will.

That may be true of street walkers but not true.of escorts who do choose the job freely . don't believe all the turn off the red light bull**** , religious fanatics who to demonise the sex industry claiming that all sex workers are held against their will. Read turn off the blue light, the sex workers side of the coin

carfiosaoorl

Sin City wrote: »

That may be true of street walkers but not true.of escorts who do choose the job freely . don't believe all the turn off the red light bull**** , religious fanatics who to demonise the sex industry claiming that all sex workers are held against their will. Read turn off the blue light, the sex workers side of the coin

I dont listen to religious fanatics. Maybe there are a tiny handful of high class escorts who dont mind the job but I dont really believe that but either way the guys in question were caught curb crawling.

Sin City

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

Sin City wrote: »

That may be true of street walkers but not true.of escorts who do choose the job freely . don't believe all the turn off the red light bull**** , religious fanatics who to demonise the sex industry claiming that all sex workers are held against their will. Read turn off the blue light, the sex workers side of the coin

I dont listen to religious fanatics. Maybe there are a tiny handful of high class escorts who dont mind the job but I dont really believe that but either way the guys in question were caught curb crawling.

dont get me wrong kerb crawling is wrong but most high class escorts work freely many with options and choices. Many are.highly educated but know.they can make a.fortune.doing.this.tax free

Seachmall

I both agree and disagree with what the gardai did.

Prostitution in Ireland is not a crime but soliciting in public, this I agree with and cracking down on it needs to be done.

Name and shaming those who tried it? Bloody joke, give them a link to some Irish Escort service, make them donate the money and leave them the **** alone.

I actually know one of the men named there, his life is going to be ruined for breaking a minor law most people don't even know exists.

biko

If you ever find me using a prostitute, feel free to print my name in the paper.
Prostitution might seem like a lesser crime to some sleazebags but it's one of the worst crimes against women.

Seachmall

biko wrote: »

but it's one of the worst crimes against women.

Not all women are delicate flowers who's innocence need to be protected. Some recognize sex for what it is, a meaningless act and one an entrepreneuring woman can turn profitable.

In fact most women nowadays hold that opinion, a quick scan of Coppers will prove this.

El Weirdo

biko wrote: »

Prostitution might seem like a lesser crime...

That's because it isn't a crime.

jester77

What happens if you first ask them if they are a garda? Do they legally have to tell you the truth and could you use this in your defence if they had first lied to you.

Seachmall

jester77 wrote: »

What happens if you first ask them if they are a garda? Do they legally have to tell you the truth and could you use this in your defence if they had first lied to you.

No, they don't have to tell you they're garda. If that were the case every undercover operation would be destroyed with one single question.

carfiosaoorl

Seachmall wrote: »

Not all women are delicate flowers who's innocence need to be protected. Some recognize sex for what it is, a meaningless act and one an entrepreneuring woman can turn profitable.

In fact most women nowadays hold that opinion, a quick scan of Coppers will prove this.

No most women dont hold that opinion where the feck did you get that idea

Logical Fallacy

I think it's a joke. If cops want to be prostitutes to make a few extra bob in the run up to silly season it's their own choice.

And now those poor men who were only doing there bit for charity are in trouble with the law.

Shocking stuff.

Seachmall

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

No most women dont hold that opinion where the feck did you get that idea

From all the drunk chicks that go home with a guy for a one night stand.

And feminists.

But mostly drunk chicks.

carfiosaoorl

Seachmall wrote: »

From all the drunk chicks that go home with a guy for a one night stand.

And feminists.

But mostly drunk chicks.

Right and all of these drunk chicks you meet speak for ever other women in the country:rolleyes:

The guys in question deserve to be named. If their crime is so minor how will it ruin their lives?

El Weirdo

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

Right and all of these drunk chicks you meet speak for ever other women in the country:rolleyes:

And you do?

Seachmall

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

Right and all of these drunk chicks you meet speak for ever other women in the country:rolleyes:

No, but the feminists try to. And they do a good job of it too.

The guys in question deserve to be named. If their crime is so minor how will it ruin their lives?

Because people still think prostitution should be illegal and is a disgusting hate-crime against women.

What these guys wanted to do wasn't illegal, how they went about it was. The judge couldn't enforce an unjust law so he Named and Shamed them. It's despicable.

carfiosaoorl

El Weirdo wrote: »

And you do?

Yep because my word is more reliable than drunk chicks :P

carfiosaoorl

Seachmall wrote: »

No, but the feminists try to. And they do a good job of it too.

Because people still think prostitution should be illegal and is a disgusting hate-crime against women.

What these guys wanted to do wasn't illegal, how they went about it was. The judge couldn't enforce a n unjust law so he Named and Shamed them. It's despicable.

People think it should be illegal because it should be. Why would you want it legalised

Seachmall

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

Yep because my word is more reliable than drunk chicks :P

And feminists. Don't forget the feminists.

People think it should be illegal because it should be. Why would you want it leagalised

I want it to remain legal to ensure women aren't being forced into prostitution, so diseases aren't being spread, so crime isn't being funded by it and because women, not the law, should be in control of their bodies and what they do with them.

El Weirdo

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

People think it should be illegal because it should be.

Wow, what a fantastic argument.

Ickle Magoo

Seachmall wrote: »

No, but the feminists try to. And they do a good job of it too.

Because people still think prostitution should be illegal and is a disgusting hate-crime against women.

What these guys wanted to do wasn't illegal, how they went about it was. The judge couldn't enforce an unjust law so he Named and Shamed them. It's despicable.

Too right - in fact it should be up there in schools as a career option...I mean, what woman in her right mind wouldn't want to be hanging around the streets for some creep she is so unattracted to that she charges him to grope her body/perform sexual favours. It's just not right joe! :mad:

Beefy78

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

The vast majority of women who prostitute themselves dont want to do it and many of them as doing it against their will.

Sounds like most jobs.

Triangla

Proper order, soliciting prostitutes is such a scumbag thing to do.

For anyone pro prostitution, would you approve it as a career choice for your mother, sister, wife, girlfriend, daughter even granny (a la Rooney)?

Fear Uladh

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I mean, what woman in her right mind wouldn't want to be hanging around the streets for some creep she is so unattracted to that she charges him to grope her body/perform sexual favours.

Someone who enjoys money no doubt.

Seachmall

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Too right - in fact it should be up there in schools as a career option...I mean, what woman in her right mind wouldn't want to be hanging around the streets for some creep she is so unattracted to that she charges him to grope her body/perform sexual favours. It's just not right joe! :mad:

Because that's entirely what I'm in favour of, congrats on getting such a good grasp of my position.

You must be so proud.

28064212

Triangla wrote: »

For anyone pro prostitution, would you approve it as a career choice for your mother, sister, wife, girlfriend, daughter even granny (a la Rooney)?

Yeah, like this argument never comes up. I don't want any of those people to work as binmen, or in McDonald's either, that doesn't mean any of those jobs should be illegal.

Can anyone on the anti-prostitution side answer me this question: take a woman who decides, competely informed and of her own free will, that, rather than work in McDonalds or go on the dole, she would like to be a prostitute. She was not coerced, she was not trafficked, she is not on drugs, she employs herself, she was not abused as a child, she practices sex that is as safe as possible and she has no hangups about whether men see her as a sex object or not. Should what she wants to do be illegal? Why? Should her clients be criminalised? Why?