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Treaty: 90 Years ago today.

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    #32
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    And, the founders of the state made a distinction between the Irish nation and the state at a time when the concepts and principles of democracy were being tried out in Europe. They did not always agree but understood the distinctions.

    +1 on what MD has posted , H&H used to be a fine forum and a very historically literate forum without having intellectual pretentions.

    Just because you are discussing the past does not make it history as real history is backed by primary sources, secondary sources and their interpretation.

    While politics is part of history, history is not politics and it is not history to take things out of their historical context.

    You cannot have a proper history discussion if people wont respect the historiography or the methodology of history as a discipline and that means being open minded when the facts are not those that you would have liked them to have been.


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    #33
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    MarchDub wrote: »
    Guys IMO the forum – and this thread - has veered far away from any pertinent or valid historicity. Or indeed any knowledge or understanding as to how history – the actual historic record - is understood or validated. Statements are being made without any reference to primary sources which just makes such claims random uninformed opinions and not based on the known historic record.


    To take or quote one statement of Collins out of context is to render it useless as regards a valuable historic discussion. Collins said many things about the Treaty both on the Dail record, in his own writings and in letters and also – to address the issue of broader historic topics that have found their way into the discussion – he very much placed the issue of the Treaty within the entire context of the Irish experience going back 700 years. You can’t isolate a moment in history and treat it like it happened in a vacuum. And you can’t have a valid historic discussion and analysis without giving your primary sources for your claims.


    Otherwise – no surprise - you end up with a bar room debate and brawling. And that’s not my understanding of the H&H forum rules or ethos.
    CDfm wrote: »
    And, the founders of the state made a distinction between the Irish nation and the state at a time when the concepts and principles of democracy were being tried out in Europe. They did not always agree but understood the distinctions.

    +1 on what MD has posted , H&H used to be a fine forum and a very historically literate forum without having intellectual pretentions.

    Just because you are discussing the past does not make it history as real history is backed by primary sources, secondary sources and their interpretation.

    While politics is part of history, history is not politics and it is not history to take things out of their historical context.

    You cannot have a proper history discussion if people wont respect the historiography or the methodology of history as a discipline and that means being open minded when the facts are not those that you would have liked them to have been.

    You will note that both posts quoted come directly after a request to stay on topic. The point being that as moderators we are seeking to keep the forum on track. However it is perfectly valid to ask questions of the forum and as such I have moved the posts from the other thread to feedback at this link


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