Frontline - RTE Budget

listermint

I cant believe im agreeing with Mary Lou Mc Donald.

Pat Rabbite has shown exactly what everyone thought, the government have an inferiority complex within Europe and are acting like spineless decision makers when it comes to the hard decisions.

Its depressing stuff that I now think Sinn Fein are talking the most sense.

woodoo

Very interesting piece there on the rises of benefits since 2004... massive

irishh_bob

woodoo wrote: »

Very interesting piece there on the rises of benefits since 2004... massive

luckily thier was a middle class lefty at hand to contradict any cold hard facts :rolleyes:

washman3

listermint wrote: »

Pat Rabbite has shown exactly what everyone thought, the government have an inferiority complex within Europe and are acting like spineless decision makers when it comes to the hard decisions.

true indeed, should have called their bluff long ago, should definately do it now, absolutely nothing to lose.

BTW, sinn fein are, and were, preaching the lines of Morgan Kelly and McWilliams all along, both of whom have been proven correct time and time again. so no need to be depressed.!!

listermint

Exactly, the budget is not radical. There is absolutely no forward thinking or a holistic view of what is the required outcome.

More nip tuck than heart bypass.


Christ lads where the hell is the defining politician, its these times that should make peoples political careers...

Sgt. Bilko 09

Mary Lou is officially a legend

Godge

Thought Pat Rabbite well and truly spiked Mary Lou when he started comparing child benefit rates in Ireland with those in the North where Sinn Fein are in government. Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness should look after their own poor up north but they send people down here to lecture us.

Camille Loftus was on later to defend the poor. Just googled her and she seems to have about four jobs - lecturer in the IPA, lecturer in UCD, policy adviser to Focus Ireland, and self-employed consultant. Fair play to her working so hard, if only so many others applied themselves as much.

pconn062

listermint wrote: »

I cant believe im agreeing with Mary Lou Mc Donald.

Pat Rabbite has shown exactly what everyone thought, the government have an inferiority complex within Europe and are acting like spineless decision makers when it comes to the hard decisions.

Its depressing stuff that I now think Sinn Fein are talking the most sense.

But where are the suggestions? Its only ever criticism of the government policy you hear from them, never any solutions, or at least credible solutions. I was really hoping Pat (Kenny that is) would call her bluff tonight and ask her to put some viable options on the table, not the usual "tax the high earners to death" that she usually spouts.

Padkir

listermint wrote: »

Exactly, the budget is not radical. There is absolutely no forward thinking or a holistic view of what is the required outcome.

More nip tuck than heart bypass.


Christ lads where the hell is the defining politician, its these times that should make peoples political careers...

The problem is, if Enda had actually done all that needs to be done to fix this crisis fast, he'd be either shot or forced out of office! He's trying to make changes while, well I won't say keeping the most people happy, but by not upsetting any group too much more than the others.

It's not the right approach, but the fact is that if he did take the right approach, not enough people would have enough sense to see that it was for the greater good. He'd be tossed out and whoever got in would just have to promise not to do all those things, and we'd be back at square one!

listermint

pconn062 wrote: »

But where are the suggestions? Its only ever criticism of the government policy you hear from them, never any solutions, or at least credible solutions. I was really hoping Pat (Kenny that is) would call her bluff tonight and ask her to put some viable options on the table, not the usual "tax the high earners to death" that she usually spouts.

Change the tax bands, address the allowances and go after the elephant in the room THE CROKE PARK AGREEMENT.

They are right, now was the window to go after this. The window of opportunity was there for all to see. And it is plainly laughable that we are going to be dishing out cheques to bondholders now in January with all this crap going on.

And the laugh that we wont see any 'supposed efficiencys' until next year. Christ if it tool my company 18 months to demonstrate efficiency we would closer our doors in weeks.

Good loser

pconn062 wrote: »

But where are the suggestions? Its only ever criticism of the government policy you hear from them, never any solutions, or at least credible solutions. I was really hoping Pat (Kenny that is) would call her bluff tonight and ask her to put some viable options on the table, not the usual "tax the high earners to death" that she usually spouts.

I would be interested in Mary Lou's views on increments.

My guess is - keep paying them.

hmmm

I thought the budget (so far) was fairly politically smart.

I thought Kenny skewered Rabbitte on the question of increments. Rabbitte was all "oh the unions said this" and "the unions made it quite clear" etc etc, pretty poor stuff and highlighting again how we will never be able to make radical change with Labour in power protecting the elites.

listermint

Padkir wrote: »

The problem is, if Enda had actually done all that needs to be done to fix this crisis fast, he'd be either shot or forced out of office! He's trying to make changes while, well I won't say keeping the most people happy, but by not upsetting any group too much more than the others.

It's not the right approach, but the fact is that if he did take the right approach, not enough people would have enough sense to see that it was for the greater good. He'd be tossed out and whoever got in would just have to promise not to do all those things, and we'd be back at square one!

This is plain rubbish. They have a mandate and thats why people voted them in. He was given the mandate to be radical. People thought he would be a fresh change and get away from this lovey dovey love in that occured during the FF era.

He talked the talk and hasnt delivered.

The window was wide open for change wide open. And no he wouldnt be 'tossed out' anyone that says he would have been is a vested interest.

Heres my vested interest fix the problems and fix them now instead of killing us all off slowly.

pconn062

listermint wrote: »

Change the tax bands, address the allowances and go after the elephant in the room THE CROKE PARK AGREEMENT.

They are right, now was the window to go after this. The window of opportunity was there for all to see. And it is plainly laughable that we are going to be dishing out cheques to bondholders now in January with all this crap going on.

And the laugh that we wont see any 'supposed efficiencys' until next year. Christ if it tool my company 18 months to demonstrate efficiency we would closer our doors in weeks.

So only two suggestions? Address the CPA which isn't an original SF policy and then back to the tax bands to sting the higher earners again, they are just repeating themselves.

listermint

pconn062 wrote: »

So only two suggestions? Address the CPA which isn't an original SF policy and then back to the tax bands to sting the higher earners again, they are just repeating themselves.

Whats your point then, continue with the crap we are getting? Its drivel. Im embarrassed i voted in FG and im sorry plain bloody sorry.

listermint

hmmm wrote: »

I thought the budget (so far) was fairly politically smart.

I thought Kenny skewered Rabbitte on the question of increments. Rabbitte was all "oh the unions said this" and "the unions made it quite clear" etc etc, pretty poor stuff and highlighting again how we will never be able to make radical change with Labour in power protecting the elites.

I honestly dont think it was politically smart at all. I think the workers who have been shouldering the main burden for the past 2 years will finally see that what we are getting is not good enough.

We are sick of the interest groups, we are sick of 'the same old same old'. I cant see how it is politically smart.

Padkir

listermint wrote: »

This is plain rubbish. They have a mandate and thats why people voted them in. He was given the mandate to be radical. People thought he would be a fresh change and get away from this lovey dovey love in that occured during the FF era.

He talked the talk and hasnt delivered.

The window was wide open for change wide open. And no he wouldnt be 'tossed out' anyone that says he would have been is a vested interest.

Heres my vested interest fix the problems and fix them now instead of killing us all off slowly.

I agree with you. But the fact is that there is nothing but complaining and moaning done from all sides about how tough and unfair it is, etc etc, when in fact it isn't half enough! Could you imagine the backlash if he had actually imposed double the cuts? I'm not saying it's right, because it's not. But I can understand the reasoning.

pconn062

listermint wrote: »

Whats your point then, continue with the crap we are getting? Its drivel. Im embarrassed i voted in FG and im sorry plain bloody sorry.

My point is if they want to be taken seriously and to have a serious chance of getting into power they need to put some serious economic policies on the table and stop spouting populist nonsense. That's all.

woodoo

listermint wrote: »

Change the tax bands, address the allowances and go after the elephant in the room THE CROKE PARK AGREEMENT.

That must be the baby elephant because the mammoth in the room is the welfare bill.

listermint

pconn062 wrote: »

My point is if they want to be taken seriously and to have a serious chance of getting into power they need to put some serious economic policies on the table and stop spouting populist nonsense. That's all.

True, but arent FG LB playing the populist game at the moment. I didnt put my vote out for that. Thats not what i was voting for. Change was what i was sold.

woodoo

hmmm wrote: »

I thought the budget (so far) was fairly politically smart.

I thought Kenny skewered Rabbitte on the question of increments. Rabbitte was all "oh the unions said this" and "the unions made it quite clear" etc etc, pretty poor stuff and highlighting again how we will never be able to make radical change with Labour in power protecting the elites.

Did you hear Pat Kenny asking would the PS be that bothered if increments were cut. Pat Rabbitte said oh yeah and Pat Kenny was a little surprised.

listermint

woodoo wrote: »

That must be the baby elephant because the mammoth in the room is the welfare bill.

Agreed, But another side of this is that we dont even have proper cohesion in terms of inter departmental communications. The department of revenue are not even speaking with department of welfare in terms of detected fraud to cut people off.

We have zero proper stead fast figures on the free travel. Where the hell are these efficiencys i ask? And supposedly it will cost us money to bring in means testing on childrens allowance rather than reassigning departments by telling them that they are reassigned. Its all softly softly let me rub your back.

We need to be radical now. Across the board and not when the island is dead as a doorknob late next year. Why cant we be radical ? showing the world that yes Ireland is innovative we can do this ourselves.

pconn062

listermint wrote: »

True, but arent FG LB playing the populist game at the moment. I didnt put my vote out for that. Thats not what i was voting for. Change was what i was sold.

That is true as well, but they said all those things to get into power and lets be honest they are not the first (or the last) politicians to go back on their election promises once they got into power. It's a shame but its true.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Does the fact that the IMF said that we should stay on course and not try to cut more than is planned hold any weight here?

Just wondering.

listermint

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Does the fact that the IMF said that we should stay on course and not try to cut more than is planned hold any weight here?

Just wondering.

The IMF are clueless in all this, they are just waiting to see what happens from the ECB, everything is just about ticking along and putting everything on the long finger in the hopes that it will fix itself. (it wont)

adrainsaint

didn't God say something like: show me a good person and I won't turn Sodom to flames. I say, show me one decent politician, and I'll show you the winning lottery numbers. Gob,****s, evey one of them. People, this country is doomed. Bunch of self serving idiots, every one of these parasites.

adrainsaint

listermint wrote: »

The IMF are clueless in all this, they are just waiting to see what happens from the ECB, everything is just about ticking along and putting everything on the long finger in the hopes that it will fix itself. (it wont)

Hear, hear -- we're knackered.

adrainsaint

Just watching the demise of the PDs, and that pig Harney keeps popping up - sends shivers down me when I remember it got voted back in. I screamed when that idiot Ahearn gave it the Minister Of Health position -- looked what happened!!!!!!!!!!! And now that clown O'Reilly has replaced it.

PRAF

woodoo wrote: »

That must be the baby elephant because the mammoth in the room is the welfare bill.

If the elephant is the Croke Park Agreement, and the Mammoth is the welfare bill, what is the role of the ECB in the future of the Eurozone. Is that the Blue Whale in the corner of the room then?

I am an optimist by nature and believed that we would muddle our way out of trouble by following the Troika agreement. At least it forced Irish politicians to take some hard decisions. Unfortunately, I think we are just threading water and hoping for some sort of radical EU / ECB action to save us. These problems are just too big for Ireland to solve now.

But with the recent noises coming out of Germany and the ECB, I think and hope that the ECB will start taking the finger out. They'd happily let us rot but they can't ignore the problems facing Spain and Italy forever. Lets hope Enda continues his run as being a lucky general.

Dan_Solo

woodoo wrote: »

That must be the baby elephant because the mammoth in the room is the welfare bill.

Nope, the paraceratherium in the room is the bailout to pay for private bank debts.

Duke Leonal Felmet

adrainsaint wrote: »

didn't God say something like: show me a good person and I won't turn Sodom to flames. I say, show me one decent politician, and I'll show you the winning lottery numbers. Gob,****s, evey one of them. People, this country is doomed. Bunch of self serving idiots, every one of these parasites.

Which is why the Abrahamic God is a contemptible entity, thankfully a work of fiction.

Dan_Solo

adrainsaint wrote: »

didn't God say something like: show me a good person and I won't turn Sodom to flames. I say, show me one decent politician, and I'll show you the winning lottery numbers. Gob,****s, evey one of them. People, this country is doomed. Bunch of self serving idiots, every one of these parasites.

Does that mean we'll vote FF at the next elections? You bet it does.

n97 mini

woodoo wrote: »

That must be the baby elephant because the mammoth in the room is the welfare bill.

Welfare recipients aren't unionised, receiving pay-rises, and protected from cuts.

n97 mini

I actually found Pat Rabitte nauseating last night when he was going on about how deals with unions are sacrosanct, when the budget has proved that absolutely nothing else is... not a single election promise isn't safe from being broken, except promises made to unions.

femur61

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Does that mean we'll vote FF at the next elections? You bet it does.

That idea is so depressing. We haven't a great history of making brilliant choices.

Dan_Solo

n97 mini wrote: »

I actually found Pat Rabitte nauseating last night when he was going on about how deals with unions are sacrosanct, when the budget has proved that absolutely nothing else is... not a single election promise isn't safe from being broken, except promises made to unions.

I don't remember any unions agreeing to pay cuts for new PS workers, the pension levy, cancelled increments or all new contracts being on the first point of the relevant scale....

Medu

washman3 wrote: »

true indeed, should have called their bluff long ago, should definately do it now, absolutely nothing to lose.

BTW, sinn fein are, and were, preaching the lines of Morgan Kelly and McWilliams all along, both of whom have been proven correct time and time again. so no need to be depressed.!!

People really need to wake up if they think SF have any answers. SF have been preaching what has been popular and hiding the consequences. Morgan Kelly himself has said he has NO solution.

McWilliams solution is leave the euro and devalue.

SF has been spouting BS that they would create jobs, hire teachers/nurses have no cuts, yet a few miles up the road they ARE in power and they are cutting spending and increasing taxes. They have hardly agreed with a single tax increase or spending cut, yet they would undo very few of them(barring a few headline ones to appease their core vote). There solution is to borrow another ~€10bn which they believe will fool people into thinking that everything is grand and we will all start spending again.

RichardAnd

adrainsaint wrote: »

didn't God say something like: show me a good person and I won't turn Sodom to flames. I say, show me one decent politician, and I'll show you the winning lottery numbers. Gob,****s, evey one of them. People, this country is doomed. Bunch of self serving idiots, every one of these parasites.

Actually, he wanted fifty.

If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake

Dan_Solo

Medu wrote: »

People really need to wake up if they think SF have any answers. SF have been preaching what has been popular and hiding the consequences. Morgan Kelly himself has said he has NO solution.

No different from FF, FG or Labour then.
At least SF's TDs are cheaper.

n97 mini

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I don't remember any unions agreeing to pay cuts for new PS workers, the pension levy, cancelled increments or all new contracts being on the first point of the relevant scale....

I didn't hear them complaining about cuts to welfare yesterday either.

Dan_Solo

n97 mini wrote: »

I didn't hear them complaining about cuts to welfare yesterday either.

You'd better edit that again as it didn't make any sense this time either.
Maybe you just don't want to listen? From http://www.siptu.ie/
"The second problem with the budget is that the burden of adjustment is still falling disproportionately on those least able to bear it"
By definition a trade union is there to support workers anyway, any opinion they have on welfare payments is secondary.

seamus

listermint wrote: »

Why cant we be radical ? showing the world that yes Ireland is innovative we can do this ourselves.

While I agree that radical is necessary, it depends on what's possible. There are a lot of stakeholders here, a lot of people who want everyone else to take the pain and themselves to take none. Every decision is going to displease someone. The more drastic decisions you make, the unhappier people are.

It's a newish Government. A proper "slash, burn and tax" budget might be what's needed, but would likely result in instability in the Government. The current government could fall within a few months of such a budget, then the incoming government reverse half of it and talk about slower cuts over the long-term, which makes the populace happier. Net result: FG & Labour have wiped out ten years of work in building their brands, and the possible good legacy they leave is reversed by the incoming Government.
So a brave move accomplishes nothing good.

On the other hand, if they can hold onto the reins for the length it will take to carry out their plan, they stand a better chance of actually fixing the economy and leaving with some semblance of a party remaining.

I do think that the majority would prefer (and are prepared for) a budget that heaps pain on us now so we can get on with it. Unfortunately the majority don't control the media. Despite yesterday's cuts being relatively thinly spread across a wide area and fairly small and fair, the first comments on most media afterwards were criticising of the "cynical and devastating attack on the most vulnerable in society". If they're unhappy about yesterday, then I don't think that the budget we need would even have a hope of being passed in the Dáil, the outrage would be so strong.

Whatever I think about the governments conduct in other areas, I do think unfortunately they have to play the long game on this one, if that's possible.

Dan_Solo

n97 mini wrote: »

I didn't hear them complaining about cuts to welfare yesterday either.

As a matter of interest, why and where did you expect to hear the unions' opinion on welfare cuts on the day they were announced? Did you hear RTE say at any stage "SIPTU and IMPACT refused to comment on the welfare cuts"?

Dan_Solo

seamus wrote: »

Net result: FG & Labour have wiped out ten years of work in building their brands, and the possible good legacy they leave is reversed by the incoming Government.
So a brave move accomplishes nothing good.

You make that sound like you think FG and Labour's image is what's most important here.

HellFireClub

The point has been proven though, that the disease that Fianna Fail was infected with, other parties such as Labour and Fine Gael, are also infected with the same disease, which causes them to lie, distort, spin and sh*te talk their way through the same defective policies that have not worked for the last 3 years.

In all seriousness, what were people thinking, that a career teacher, who never had to take a risk in his whole teaching career, and a shop steward of all things, were going to be able to create a single job between the pair of them???

People in Ireland, they seriously need to snap out of this utterly deluded mindset that they are in and start confronting the continuing financial rape of this country by this government. The evidence is there staring at you in the face, 450,000 people out of work and rising, economic activity down, those that have jobs are hardly left with 20 Euro to spend on themselves at the end of the week, and for what?!?!?!? For more of the same, more hardship, less disposable income, feeding into less economic activity, causing more unemployment, more people on the dole, so taxes have to go up again?!?

If this isn't the definition of a state that is steadily cruising towards a complete failure and breakdown of society as we know it, Bangladesh style, I don't actually know what is.

This austerity is not working, it is not creating jobs, it's long past time that people stopped listening to the sickening and revolting spin, put out by overpaid political spin doctors, about imminent recoveries, green f*cking shoots, and "export led" this and "we have just turned the corner" that, it's lies lies and more lies, issued to us by people who are completely insulated, on 100K plus salaries, by the effect of the austerity that they are recommending for the rest of us gullies.

seamus

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You make that sound like you think FG and Labour's image is what's most important here.

It's important to them. However, in order to fix the economy, they still require public support. This isn't a dictatorship.
If FG/Lab really think they can do it, then it will do no good for the public to turn on them. So to a certain extent from FG/Lab's POV, maintaining public support is in the public's interests as much as theirs.

It's not necessarily a case that a party can throw themselves on the sword, but in doing so save the country. Whatever action they took that destroyed them will just be reversed by the incoming government and they've committed suicide for nothing.

meglome

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Nope, the paraceratherium in the room is the bailout to pay for private bank debts.

Can we stop with this, by far the biggest problem we have is overspending. The majority of our debt will be from our deficit. I appreciate it's easier to scream about the bankers than the many people who may be struggling on social welfare. Won't change facts though, we can't afford the Croke Park agreement or the Welfare bill.

Gilmore was terrible last night and he just repeatedly blamed Europe and FF. While he's correct that FF was at the helm and ran the ship aground the evidence for a lot of what he said about Europe just isn't there. I am so sick of the blaming someone else mentality that has become, it appears, the norm.

n97 mini

Dan_Solo wrote: »

As a matter of interest, why and where did you expect to hear the unions' opinion on welfare cuts on the day they were announced?

TV and/or radio. Everyone else's opinion was. David Begg et al nowhere to be seen.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Did you hear RTE say at any stage "SIPTU and IMPACT refused to comment on the welfare cuts"?

Oh, were they on RTE? What show so that I can listen/watch back?

HellFireClub

seamus wrote: »

It's important to them. However, in order to fix the economy, they still require public support. This isn't a dictatorship.
If FG/Lab really think they can do it, then it will do no good for the public to turn on them. So to a certain extent from FG/Lab's POV, maintaining public support is in the public's interests as much as theirs.

It's not necessarily a case that a party can throw themselves on the sword, but in doing so save the country. Whatever action they took that destroyed them will just be reversed by the incoming government and they've committed suicide for nothing.

Seamus there is no evidence that the country is being saved. The evidence points to the country being absolutely ruined, whatever plan that these guys have, if they even have a plan, it isn't working, it can't possibly be working with downward growth revsions and unemployment still rising!

There is no plan for job creation, there is some kind of a loose casual notion by this government that maybe some people might try to create some jobs in 2015 or whatever, this mindset demonstrates a complete failure to understand how jobs are created, (by people who see a demand in the market and step in to fill that demand), there is no demand in this economy because people are terrified to spend money that they simply don't have.

These guys are being let away with blue f*cking murder here!!! It was only less than a year ago, that they were striding up and down the country, confidently telling everyone that they could put in place the kind of sensible policies that this country needed to prosper again, such as, diverting the money that was being wasted on bailing out failed banking institutions and spending it on a credible jobs initiative, whatever happened to that policy, whatever happened to "not another cent for failed banks"?!?

They promised sensible and credible policies and they have failed to deliver anything, apart from a policy that involves pathethic and disgraceful pandering to our EU overlords and people pleasing vested interests who took a bad gamble with their money on out of control banks.

These people are spoofers and wafflers, they promised a credible plan and they have delivered absolutely NOTHING, apart from more job losses and poverty on those who can least afford it.

Lockstep

Dan_Solo wrote: »

At least SF's TDs are cheaper.

They cost the taxpayer the same, they donate the rest to the party and various causes.
The money isn't returned to the exchequer.

seamus

HellFireClub wrote: »

Seamus there is no evidence that the country is being saved. The evidence points to the country being absolutely ruined, whatever plan that these guys have, if they even have a plan, it isn't working, it can't possibly be working with downward growth revsions and unemployment still rising!

You might be right, but I tend to prefer to give people a chance before writing them off. They've been in government for ten months. In that time, they're largely tied by the budget implemented by the previous government and other business and international deals that were ongoing.
This is their first budget, and we haven't even heard the whole thing yet.

Writing them off at this stage, is IMO premature and counterproductive.

Come back to us in six months' time; if we're in an even worse position then, than we are now, then you can say, "Their plan isn't working". At the moment the best you can say is, "They haven't changed anything".