Minister warns of substantial increase to transport fares

rodento

Taken from Newstalk:eek:


The Transport Minister is warning there will be a substantial increase in public transport fares next year as a result of the Budget.

The subsidies paid to the CIE Group will be cut by 8% or €21 million in 2012.

This includes Irish Rail, Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus.

However commuters who use the new Leap Card will be cushioned from the vast majority of increases.

These will be focused on cash fares.

Minister Leo Varadkar says people who live in areas which are not covered by the integrated ticketing system will see a modest rise in charges.

anymore

I travelled on a cork city bus recently and at least half were on the free travel and most of the rest were teens presumably on a kids fare.
Only a minority seemed to be full fare passengers.
The sysemt cannot really run like that ! I even know a former Minster using his bus pass !

rodento

You also can't run a public service by reducing direct subsidies and replacing it with fare increases( which in turn increases the vat... )

If you want people to use public transport you make it cheaper:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Look at Ryanair, it works

anymore

rodento wrote: »

You also can't run a public service by reducing direct subsidies and replacing it with fare increases( which in turn increases the vat... )

If you want people to use public transport you make it cheaper:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Look at Ryanair, it works

As far as i know Ryan air doesnt reduce its fair for age, youth etc. It is very fair in that reagrd ! Plus Ryan Air workers are recruited from the real world with real world expectations in terms of having to earn your living !
No 19th century work practices.

hmmm

Yet another increase in costs which will disproportionally affect lower paid workers, and will mean that yet again those who have never worked are gaining relative to the lower paid worker. It's wrong, stupid and immoral.

anymore

hmmm wrote: »

Yet another increase in costs which will disproportionally affect lower paid workers, and will mean that yet again those who have never worked are gaining relative to the lower paid worker. It's wrong, stupid and immoral.

It is a fator to be borne in mind when discussing any completely idiotic proposals to reduce the minumum wage !

hmmm

anymore wrote: »

It is a fator to be borne in mind when discussing any completely idiotic proposals to reduce the minumum wage !

It's not the same though. The argument for reducing the minimum wage is that it might (might) provide more employment. Raising public transport fares does nothing except impose extra costs on the paying users.

ParkRunner

Surely free travel will be abolished instead of hiking fares for those who use it most i.e. employees! The working poor will be destitute before long!

anymore

hmmm wrote: »

It's not the same though. The argument for reducing the minimum wage is that it might (might) provide more employment. Raising public transport fares does nothing except impose extra costs on the paying users.

Raising the fare requires less of a subsidy which means taking less out of the economy in order to pay for subsidies which means more money is available for investment. Mind you the same applies to the new car subsidy scheme.

hmmm

anymore wrote: »

Raising the fare requires less of a subsidy which means taking less out of the economy in order to pay for subsidies which means more money is available for investment.

I agree, but could they have found it somewhere else that doesn't impact on the working poor (as EF said). How about 4 euro a week off of JSA recipients who have been on the dole over 10 years, there's about 100,000 of them.

anymore

hmmm wrote: »

I agree, but could they have found it somewhere else that doesn't impact on the working poor (as EF said). How about 4 euro a week off of JSA recipients who have been on the dole over 10 years, there's about 100,000 of them.

i suggest they simply remove the artists and writers tax free allowanc of € 100,000 per year for starters and then start permanently removing some of the arts subsidies.

Dan_Solo

anymore wrote: »

i suggest they simply remove the artists and writers tax free allowanc of € 100,000 per year for starters and then start permanently removing some of the arts subsidies.

And FFS kill the Udaras NOW.

AlekSmart

anymore wrote: »

I travelled on a cork city bus recently and at least half were on the free travel and most of the rest were teens presumably on a kids fare.
Only a minority seemed to be full fare passengers.
The sysemt cannot really run like that ! I even know a former Minster using his bus pass !

One good starting point would be if the Department of Social Protection were able to give definitive figures as to (1) how many of it's customers hold Free Travel passes (2) How many spouses,partners and/or "Companions" are officially on the books.

These figures are somewhat difficult to come by on the open market and present a difficulty when attempting to cost the scheme.

However I can say that the past 6 months has seen a substantial increase in Free Travel Pass usage,particularly amongst non-national people,often presenting with absolutely no English at all.

This is of significance I feel in attempting to define whether the Free Travel Scheme is financed under the broad umbrella of Social Insurance .....as from my observations a significant proportion of new Free Travel Pass holders could not have ever been working in the State.....therefore a somewhat yawning chasm re funding opens up......?

Dan_Solo

Same story on the train. I reguarly seem to be the only person on the carriage handing over the regular paid for ticker. Everyone else has some sort of freebie in a clear plastic wallet or the conductor just gives them a nod. (and no, they don't look like the sort who need annual train passes to commute to work).

Max Powers

rodento wrote: »

Taken from Newstalk:eek:


The Transport Minister is warning there will be a substantial increase in public transport fares next year as a result of the Budget.

The subsidies paid to the CIE Group will be cut by 8% or €21 million in 2012.

This includes Irish Rail, Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus.

However commuters who use the new Leap Card will be cushioned from the vast majority of increases.

These will be focused on cash fares.

Minister Leo Varadkar says people who live in areas which are not covered by the integrated ticketing system will see a modest rise in charges.

Unbelievable, Dublin bus and CIE are ran for the benefit of the employees, not the public, thats why we have a terrible public transport system. Over priced fares, under-efficient and poor service.

COYW

hmmm wrote: »

I agree, but could they have found it somewhere else that doesn't impact on the working poor (as EF said). How about 4 euro a week off of JSA recipients who have been on the dole over 10 years, there's about 100,000 of them.

Oh no, don't dare touch long term JSA recipients and the likes. Hammering lower and middle class workers who are funding the JSA is perfectly ok but don't dare touch those poor souls with the free medical cards, .......... :rolleyes: Implementing a common sense and fair measure like yours hmmm, requires balls which the current government is lacking, sadly.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Everyone else has some sort of freebie in a clear plastic wallet or the conductor just gives them a nod. (and no, they don't look like the sort who need annual train passes to commute to work).

I commute via train too and there is a core group of regulars who pay full whack just like you and I but there are always a serious number with freebies too. Time to nip the likes of free travel for OAPs in the bud too. We cant afford it anymore. Feckin C.J.H. again.

Sofa King Great

They should introduce a nominal fare for sing the "free travel" of say 20c or 30c. On top of that the drivers should be far more vigilant in looking for forged passes.

They should also abolish free travel on the Aircoach. It is a disgrace that the Government are funding people to take a bus which brings them to/from the airport. If they can afford the flight then they can afford the aircoach, and if not there are plenty of dublin bus routes they can get!

Geuze

My relations get free travel to the airport to fly to their holiday home in the Costa Brava.

Great country.

anymore

Geuze wrote: »

My relations get free travel to the airport to fly to their holiday home in the Costa Brava.

Great country.

If there were moves to ablolish it, there would be hundreds of ' heartache' stories of cancer vicitims having to go abroad to the sun for repite care etc !

ednwireland

course they have to up transport fares they dont want people to use less petrol and get rid of their cars, imagine the hole in the finances that would cause

robd

COYW wrote: »

Time to nip the likes of free travel for OAPs in the bud too. We cant afford it anymore. Feckin C.J.H. again.

In fairness it was a good idea when it was introduced. There was a huge amount of poverty amongst pensioners in those days. They were given a free pass to travel off-peak hours when there was spare capacity in the system.

What it has turned into is a complete farce. Disability passes were added and then the scheme broadened and broadened to the point where a drug abuser is counted as having a disability and gets free travel. Elections were bought by extending the OAP scheme to all hours.

I've no problem with a base system in general. It needs to be paired back hugely though. Off-peak only. Unlimited travel on commuter services. Limit the number of journeys on intercity routes to a fixed number with advanced booking required. Passenger pay outside of that. Restrict disability scheme to those with real disabilities. Introduce smart cards and force tagging on and off as appropriate to provide accurate stats of journeys and costs of the system and cut down on fare evasion.

COYW

robd wrote: »

I've no problem with a base system in general. It needs to be paired back hugely though. Off-peak only. Unlimited travel on commuter services. Limit the number of journeys on intercity routes to a fixed number with advanced booking required. Passenger pay outside of that. Restrict disability scheme to those with real disabilities. Introduce smart cards and force tagging on and off as appropriate to provide accurate stats of journeys and costs of the system and cut down on fare evasion.

The system as a whole need to be re-vamped and locked down. Can you actually buy an off-peak ticket in Ireland?

murphaph

There should be no absolutely free travel for anybody. Subsidised tickets should exist, but nothing completely free.

The system should be scrapped and rebooted. A Alek Smart says: nobody really knows how many passes are in circulation. They need to start from scratch and have one agency responsible for issuing subsidised ticket IDs.

The tickets themselves should just be sold at vending machines like other tickets, with the onus being on the user to have a valid ID. That's how it works here anyway (and NO free travel in Berlin, only subsidised travel! A pensioner can get an off peak monthly ticket for about €40 for Berlin. There is NO national free travel scheme etc.)

The Irish are really sentimental chumps when it comes to the elderly though. No matter how insanely generous the benefit is, any notion of clawing it back it met with howls of derision.

robd

murphaph wrote: »

There should be no absolutely free travel for anybody. Subsidised tickets should exist, but nothing completely free.

....

I've tried to take a middling and deliberately soft approach to this. This is inline with my opinion of the government we have and have had for decades and their ability to make hard decisions and tackle the problem.

I would advocate subsidized rather than free travel too, however I just can't see that hard a line decision being taken though. Really I can't.

robd

COYW wrote: »

The system as a whole need to be re-vamped and locked down. Can you actually buy an off-peak ticket in Ireland?

Advance internet sales now offer discounted fares off-peak for Intercity Rail fares. Walk of fares are fixed but they don't have to me

To cover gap in public service obligation charge next year innovative steps need to be taken. By innovative I mean demand led fares ala Ryanair rather than the fixed fare for every service.

meglome

I'd like that all free travel be reformed. Everyone should pay something for their travel, even if it's subsidised.

What I'd like before any increases though is a complete review of pay and conditions in CIE. I'm going to take a stab here and say that the pay and conditions are excessive, especially given the current mess. Anyone know for sure?

DoesNotCompute

rodento wrote: »

Minister Leo Varadkar says people who live in areas which are not covered by the integrated ticketing system will see a modest rise in charges.

:mad::mad::mad:

Cheers, Leo :rolleyes:

Well at least I've already got my annual point-to-point taxsaver ticket ordered. However, my wife, who's not working will be screwed.

As i discovered this morning, somehow getting a single train fare from Kilcock to Drumcondra works out more expensive than travelling from Kilcock to Connolly. Just goes to show what kind of logic is being operated at CIE.

DoesNotCompute

AlekSmart wrote: »

One good starting point would be if the Department of Social Protection were able to give definitive figures as to (1) how many of it's customers hold Free Travel passes (2) How many spouses,partners and/or "Companions" are officially on the books.

These figures are somewhat difficult to come by on the open market and present a difficulty when attempting to cost the scheme.

Surely a simple FOI request would reveal these figures, no hassle? I mean, it's not like we're living in Stalin's Russia.

munchkin_utd

this is a complete red herring.

In dublin you will have a smart card and fares will not see much change on that scheme (according to the afore mentioned article).
In Dublin CASH fares - for people who hold up busses whilst farting about looking for change in their pockets/ purse - WILL see an increase.

The integrated smartcard cost €48 million to bring in already.
Delays on busses cost millions a year directly caused by high dwell times directly attributable to having people paying cash rather than use existing prepay options. The delays are more than a nuicance for Dublin bus. The combined effect of dwell times on busses is that they need more busses and more drivers.

So essentially a bus service slowed down by people paying in cash in their millions is both less attractive and more expensive to provide!

If people arent given a striking benefit in using the new prepay smartcards over paying in cash then nobody will use the smartcards and you will see no improvement in bus services NOR any efficiencies in the number of busses needed on the road.

robd

meglome wrote: »

I'd like that all free travel be reformed. Everyone should pay something for their travel, even if it's subsidised.

What I'd like before any increases though is a complete review of pay and conditions in CIE. I'm going to take a stab here and say that the pay and conditions are excessive, especially given the current mess. Anyone know for sure?

I think you have to look at each CIE sub-company separately. Dublin Bus average wage is €44k per year. Irish Rail on the other hand has an average wage of €54k per year. Dublin Bus carry 120m approx while Irish Rail carry 38m approx in the whole of the country. Dublin Bus implemented lots of cost saving measures over the last few years. Haven't hear of much in Irish Rail.

JP Liz V1

Irish Rail prices are absurd already

n97 mini

robd wrote: »

I think you have to look at each CIE sub-company separately. Dublin Bus average wage is €44k per year.

Which is still too much. A bus driver in London earns about €37k.

meglome

robd wrote: »

I think you have to look at each CIE sub-company separately. Dublin Bus average wage is €44k per year. Irish Rail on the other hand has an average wage of €54k per year. Dublin Bus carry 120m approx while Irish Rail carry 38m approx in the whole of the country. Dublin Bus implemented lots of cost saving measures over the last few years. Haven't hear of much in Irish Rail.

n97 mini wrote: »

Which is still too much. A bus driver in London earns about €37k.

The average wage doesn't obviously give us the full picture but they do seem high. The average industrial wage is around 33k I think, so 44k is a tidy wage, and 54k is pretty damn generous to say the least. Does anyone have a breakdown of the wages?

gurramok

Also, an OAP who gets the free travel pass can have a partner of any age to travel free with them on rail\Luas\bus\inter-city bus. Lovely ain't it?

AlekSmart

gurramok wrote: »

Also, an OAP who gets the free travel pass can have a partner of any age to travel free with them on rail\Luas\bus\inter-city bus. Lovely ain't it?

Well not quite...only if the Free Travel Scheme Pass is endorsed as "With or without Spouse/Partner" or is a "Companion" Pass which has a Green Stripe to identify it and which must be applied for with supporting Medical Certification of inability to use Public Transport unaccompanied

A single person gets a document endorsed "Pass Holder Only",a term which I have been asked many times to explain :rolleyes:

323

Makes no odds as only public transport near me (Donegal) goes nowhere at any time useful to anyone, may as well not be there.
Used to have a fantastic private bus service giving good service from almost anywhere in th county to Dublin.
Unfortunatly sold to CIE a few years ago, now back to worse than 30 years ago.
As someone said, CIE exist only for the benifit of their employees.

gurramok

AlekSmart wrote: »

Well not quite...only if the Free Travel Scheme Pass is endorsed as "With or without Spouse/Partner" or is a "Companion" Pass which has a Green Stripe to identify it and which must be applied for with supporting Medical Certification of inability to use Public Transport unaccompanied

A single person gets a document endorsed "Pass Holder Only",a term which I have been asked many times to explain :rolleyes:

Its the Companion pass. What's this Medical Certification about? Pensioners I know who have used this to get sons\daughters free travel, can drive cars!!

anymore

robd wrote: »

In fairness it was a good idea when it was introduced. There was a huge amount of poverty amongst pensioners in those days. They were given a free pass to travel off-peak hours when there was spare capacity in the system.

What it has turned into is a complete farce. Disability passes were added and then the scheme broadened and broadened to the point where a drug abuser is counted as having a disability and gets free travel. Elections were bought by extending the OAP scheme to all hours.

I've no problem with a base system in general. It needs to be paired back hugely though. Off-peak only. Unlimited travel on commuter services. Limit the number of journeys on intercity routes to a fixed number with advanced booking required. Passenger pay outside of that. Restrict disability scheme to those with real disabilities. Introduce smart cards and force tagging on and off as appropriate to provide accurate stats of journeys and costs of the system and cut down on fare evasion.

I actually do know one former addict, now recovered who managed to get a ' disability ' pension ( even though he is no more disabled than me ) has free travel, though he does pay for his own air fare to the US on occassional hols to his relatives there ! Going up to Dublin for days out is of course free !
In fact I know a second friend has now also gotten a permanent disability pension as well - I think he said as he was over 55 they probably said he deserves it now ! His attiutde to life is keep your spending low and you have have a quite nice life on the pension - he now owns his own house as well, so no rents to pay out.

Godge

Simple solutions to the Free Pass abuse.

- Make travelling on the free pass only for monday to Friday commuter journeys staring after 10 a.m. and before 4.p.m. and after 7p.m. This eliminates the abuse associated with those commuting to work on companion passes - see loads of them on Dublin Bus.
- Convert free passes to smart cards with photographs that work like the Leap Card. This will enable you to enforce time restrictions and also to check the holder is valid.
- Tighten eligibility rules in the same way that eligibility rules have been tightened for many social welfare entitlements.

As a result of the above, the old age pensioners going to the shops or the disabled person getting out for a few hours won't be affected. Those abusing the system will be caught.

AlekSmart

gurramok wrote: »

Its the Companion pass. What's this Medical Certification about? Pensioners I know who have used this to get sons\daughters free travel, can drive cars!!

Here ye go Gurramok...

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW40/pages/Appendix1.aspx

To qualify for a Free Travel Companion Pass you must satisfy one of the following conditions:
Free Travel Passholders aged 66 or over:

You are aged 66 to 69 inclusive and are medically assessed as unfit to travel alone,
You are aged 70 or over and are medically unfit to travel alone,
You are getting full-time care and attention from someone who is getting Carer's Allowance from this Department,
You are certified by either the Irish Wheelchair Association or by your GP as being a permanent wheelchair user,
You are blind or severely visually impaired and
you satisfy the blindness conditions for the Blind Pension or
you are registered as a blind person with either the National Council for the Blind of Ireland or the National League of the Blind of Ireland.

Free Travel Passholders aged under 66:

You are getting Disability Allowance or Invalidity Pension or Disablement Pension and Incapacity Supplement and are medically assessed as unfit to travel alone,
You live in Health Service Executive (HSE) - approved residential care, and are medically assessed as unfit to travel alone and you:
were previously getting Disability Allowance, or
are assessed as being medically suitable for Disability Allowance.
You are blind or severely visually impaired and you:
are getting a Blind Pension, or
satisfy the blindness condition for the Blind Pension, or
are registered as a blind person with either the National Council for the Blind of Ireland or the National League of the Blind of Ireland,
You are getting one of the qualifying payments listed below and you are certified by either the Irish Wheelchair Association or by your GP as being a permanent wheelchair user,
You are getting full-time care and attention from someone who is getting Carer's Allowance from this Department. To qualify for a companion pass based on this condition, you must be entitled to a Free Travel Pass in your own right.

So,as you can see Gurramok,it's a very robust system indeed and in no way open to abuse.....:eek:

The only figgers we have are now two years out of date and indicate c. 600,000 Free Passes in sirculation......thats really ones to which can be added the qualifying spouses/partners/companions,at a guess a further 100,000....so lets suggest some 700,000 legitimate Free Travel adults in a State with approximately 3 million adults (?).....not bad going for a wee small Republic I suggest...either that or we have a VERY seriously afflicted population....;)

DWCommuter

The only thing I want to add to this discussion is that the DSP free travel pass IS NOT responsible for the financial problems of the CIE group. There is obviously a problem with the cost of the pass and its abuse or even continued existence, but CIE have no right to claim it as an excuse for their own inefficiencies.

AlekSmart

DWCommuter wrote: »

The only thing I want to add to this discussion is that the DSP free travel pass IS NOT responsible for the financial problems of the CIE group. There is obviously a problem with the cost of the pass and its abuse or even continued existence, but CIE have no right to claim it as an excuse for their own inefficiencies.

DWC,I'm not certain that anybody here is suggesting this..?

I would suggest however,that the current dysfunctional DSP Free Travel Scheme is a significant factor in a greater financial malaise from both Government and Transport Provider perspectives.

Hotblack Desiato

323 wrote: »

Makes no odds as only public transport near me (Donegal) goes nowhere at any time useful to anyone, may as well not be there.
Used to have a fantastic private bus service giving good service from almost anywhere in th county to Dublin.
Unfortunatly sold to CIE a few years ago, now back to worse than 30 years ago.
As someone said, CIE exist only for the benifit of their employees.

Person living in rural area complains about living in rural area SHOCK!

ThePower11

The Government doing their bit for tourism again :rolleyes:

the groutch

agree that everyone should have to pay something, but being only partially subsidised could effect dwell times.
imo they should have it that it has to be scanned like a leap/smartcard, but needs renewal every year, and is subject to a nominal annual fee of maybe €50.

thebman

ThePower11 wrote: »

The Government doing their bit for tourism again :rolleyes:

They did their bit for tourism remember, the price wasn't passed on so businesses don't seem too concerned about tourists costs either it seems so it must not be an issue :P

WalterMitty

n97 mini wrote: »

Which is still too much. A bus driver in London earns about €37k.

London isnt all uk . Many parts of UK they get 20-25k euro per year like in Manchester where i know a guy that drives in the city centre . London average is under 30k sterling with most on 25k sterling and that includes a london premium for high cost of living in london.

Park Royal

I do hope the department responsible for issuing these Free Passes are a bit

more tighter than they were a few years back......

I came across a man in Midlands town who had sold his Free Passes for a few

quid to enable him get drink........on examination he had got 13 replacement

Free Passes....no bother.....

Then there was a man accompanying his partner to Dublin every day with

someone elses Free Pass.......he got himself plastered all over a Red Top rag

and the difference in name surfaced........

For some reason the Department were very slow to put peoples photo on these Free Passes particularly down the country.....hence checking was
very difficult......

eth0

The free travel thing should have been extended to everybody. No more need to collect/issue tickets, more tourists because its not as expensive to get around anymore, less people wasting petrol. All they'd have to do is put on a few more trains on busy routes but we'd finally have proper public transport

markpb

munchkin_utd wrote: »

In Dublin CASH fares - for people who hold up busses whilst farting about looking for change in their pockets/ purse - WILL see an increase.

You can't blame (most) passengers for this. For the vast majority of people travelling on Dublin Bus, there is *no* prepaid card which is the same price or cheaper than cash. DB have been removing those cards over the last few years and have deliberately made cash more attractive.

The only people who benefit from prepaid cards right now are people travelling from the outer suburbs to the city centre or people taking 2 buses in the same journey. For everyone else, DB have priced cash more attractively.

Hopefully Leap will help a little but when a bus operator deliberately shoots itself in the foot, you can't blame the customer.

anymore

Well I guess the bus subvention has to be cut to help pay for the huge salary of the Minister for Social Protections 'Cable Guy/Adviser'