The Budget

Pharaoh1

Just browsing through the details as they relate to agriculture here
http://budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2012/Documents/CER%20-%20Estimates%20Final%20Part%202.pdf

I see amendments to farm assist means test on page 9 to save 5.2 million which I would say will be very significant to those on this scheme

Also 30m from the DAS scheme via eligibility and qualification and I see a 19m saving on REPS "transaction costs" which sounds a bit creative.

6600

Cheers for that! Was looking for that link on all the news sites to no avail, knew some of you would have it on here though.

Cran

was told by someone who I would expect to have some insight on the agriculture spending that future reps 4 payments will be hit hard...

Username John

Cran wrote: »

was told by someone who I would expect to have some insight on the agriculture spending that future reps 4 payments will be hit hard...

:mad:

Would that not have been announced today, if it was to be cut in 2012?

bogman_bass

seems like farming got away pretty lightly with cuts which makes me worried about what tomorrow will bring

dryan

'Minister Coveney outlining the 10% cut in REPS4 payments and alterations in Disadvantaged Area Scheme criteria, but argues there is good news elsewhere'

Ahhhhh S**e!!

6600

Feck it anyway - have 2 yrs payments left after this yr. One of the lucky few that got in before it was pulled altogether.
Just goes to show you can never rely on anything to do with the government..

Pharaoh1

Cran wrote: »

was told by someone who I would expect to have some insight on the agriculture spending that future reps 4 payments will be hit hard...

I suppose there won't be any "future" Reps 4 payments as there won't be a REPS scheme once the current one ends and the payments for the current scheme are effectively a contract and can't be changed.

Anyone have any clue as to what exactly "transaction costs to scheme participants" are.

I note that there is no explicit mention of a cut in the allocation for AEOS

Then again feck all has been actually paid out for the AEOS scheme either for 2010 or 2011 so we might have a 2012 scheme where nobody gets paid again.

Pharaoh1

Sorry I appear to be mistaken on REPS 4 payments - amazing how some "contracts" can be changed with no problems.

Username John

dryan wrote: »

'Minister Coveney outlining the 10% cut in REPS4 payments and alterations in Disadvantaged Area Scheme criteria, but argues there is good news elsewhere'

Ahhhhh S**e!!

Eh - was that announced today?

Just read on breaking news, it came from the ministers speech....

djmc

There is also a new dairy levy
http://www.ifa.ie/IFAInformation/tabid/586/ctl/Detail/mid/2202/xmid/4860/xmfid/23/Default.aspx

6600

There was a 17% cut in 2009 iirc so there's a precedent. Also the rate of payment is probably not part of the 'contract'. Where could I find the text of Coveney's speech?

redzerologhlen

6600 wrote: »

Feck it anyway - have 2 yrs payments left after this yr. One of the lucky few that got in before it was pulled altogether.
Just goes to show you can never rely on anything to do with the government..

We have 2 years left aswell, In fairness 10% cut is still better than 100% cut. As a matter of interest when do these cuts come into effect. We didnt get our reps last week...

reilig

dryan wrote: »

'Minister Coveney outlining the 10% cut in REPS4 payments and alterations in Disadvantaged Area Scheme criteria, but argues there is good news elsewhere'

Ahhhhh S**e!!

The "good news elsewhere" is that the SCWS remains intact.

I imagine that the savings in reps payments will be achieved by people exiting from REPS and having no new scheme to go into.

AEOS is frozen - ie. It won't be open for any new applicants in 2012.

John_F

todays news http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/press/pressreleases/2011/december/title,60013,en.html

what ever about tomorrow :rolleyes:

whelan1

see the brucellosis testing will change too , only 20% of dairy herds to be tested each year and 50% of sucklers!

Alibaba

Seems farming has been hit pretty hard in this budget.

10 % cut in REPS 4

And Tomorrow, probably increase in diesel price, vat etc.

I know it's the wrong forum but , so much for Enda telling me last night that this mess was not MY/ OUR fault :rolleyes:

whelan1

ye was just saying there was no mention of fuel/ drink etc

rahin man

Anybody thinking about de registering for vat here?

Its bad enough paying 13.5% out of the few dollars i get for hire work but 15.5%?

This will have a big knock on aswell on vat on cattle sales for vat reg. farmers

moy83

rahin man wrote: »

Anybody thinking about de registering for vat here?

Its bad enough paying 13.5% out of the few dollars i get for hire work but 15.5%?

This will have a big knock on aswell on vat on cattle sales for vat reg. farmers

I gave up the VAT no. two years ago for the plastering .I think you cant take in anymore than 37000 not to be registered which isnt much of a problem in the buildings these days I had nothing left to claim back from it and not planning to buy anything major so i didnt see the point in collecting it just to pay it all into the govt , plus if you are pricing private work for people that cant claim back the VAT it makes the work cheaper for them

ravima

so am I reading it right, we must keep twice as much stock for twice as long to get the grant? wonder where we'll get the grass.

rahin man

Thanks for that moy83.
Ive had 3 years now where ive paid more vat than i reclaimed so i think its high time to de reg

moy83

Im glad i did it anyhow but ask your accountant will it suit you . It might be harder to keep below the threshold if you are hiring machinery out rather than me charging for my ould trowel:D

Injuryprone

rahin man wrote: »

Anybody thinking about de registering for vat here?

Its bad enough paying 13.5% out of the few dollars i get for hire work but 15.5%?

This will have a big knock on aswell on vat on cattle sales for vat reg. farmers

Eh, since when is the lower VAT rate going up 2%? I thought it was only the higher rate

foundation10

Injuryprone wrote: »

Eh, since when is the lower VAT rate going up 2%? I thought it was only the higher rate

You are correct it is the higher rate that is increasing to 21% with the reduced rate staying the same at 13.5%. These rates will not affect farmers sales for cattle sheep etc as this is at a special rate of 4.8% which I would be surprised that they would touch.

A failed attempt by minister coveney at reforming the dept of ag. The press release is availble on the dept of Ag website, it makes poor reading. My one question to the minister would be what are all these staff numbers doing in the dept of Ag these days and there is surely more savings to be made from downsizing the department rather than tinkering with the schemes and low income farmers, sure with reps going and the aeos closed and no capital investment grants, what are all the administrators/inspectors doing that were involved with these?

galwayhillbilly

ravima wrote: »

so am I reading it right, we must keep twice as much stock for twice as long to get the grant? wonder where we'll get the grass.

your land must be very bad if you can't keep 2 sheep to the hectare, or 1 calf to 2.6 hectares for 6 months. I'm just stocking up this year had the bare minimum last year but was planning to double numbers this year anyway so not too worried, except that this will artificially increase replacement costs again this year.

will be less piebalds and miniature ponies on the land now that they cant be used as livestock units

theaceofspies

galwayhillbilly wrote: »

will be less piebalds and miniature ponies on the land now that they cant be used as livestock units

Where/when is this change proposed?

galwayhillbilly

theaceofspies wrote: »

Where/when is this change proposed?

Quote From the dept of ag website below

Changes to Disadvantaged Areas Scheme

• The minimum stocking density has been increased from 0.15lu/ha to 0.30lu/ha.
• The minimum retention period has been increased from 3 months to 6 months and will be calculated over 12 months.
• There will be a reduced rate of aid where applicants hold both Disadvantage and non-Disadvantaged Lands.
• Exclusion of horses from the stocking density calculation.
• There is an exclusion for land more that 80 kilometres from a farmer's main holding............................................................................

Don't know when they are expected to be enforced, but one would assume as part of next year's SFP application process apart from a stroke of a pen it doesnt take much to implement this change

theaceofspies

galwayhillbilly wrote: »

Quote From the dept of ag website below

Changes to Disadvantaged Areas Scheme

• The minimum stocking density has been increased from 0.15lu/ha to 0.30lu/ha.
• The minimum retention period has been increased from 3 months to 6 months and will be calculated over 12 months.
• There will be a reduced rate of aid where applicants hold both Disadvantage and non-Disadvantaged Lands.
• Exclusion of horses from the stocking density calculation.
• There is an exclusion for land more that 80 kilometres from a farmer's main holding............................................................................

Don't know when they are expected to be enforced, but one would assume as part of next year's SFP application process apart from a stroke of a pen it doesnt take much to implement this change

Fair play for that info (Thanks!). Lads; the times, they are a changing. To me it looks like farming has been very hard hit in the budget - interesting to see if there will be any reductions in the low hanging fruit such as Irish Racing Prizemoney fund the vast majority of which is soaked up by the likes of Mick O'Leary and JP McManus. I would doubt it. I won't even mention the IFA in case some contributors on Boards get their knickers in a twist.

nashmach

Major changes in CGT and CAT - not good at all. :mad:

irishh_bob

doesnt seem a bad budget at all for farmers , one piece of good new is the reduction in stamp duty from six percent to two percent on farmland including buildings

Tipp Man

nashmach wrote: »

Major changes in CGT and CAT - not good at all. :mad:

What are they?

Username John

Tipp Man wrote: »

What are they?

1622 Increasing the current rate of Capital Acquisitions Tax from 25% to 30% after today.
Increasing Capital Gains Tax from 25% to 30% after today.
Reducing the Group A Tax-free threshold for Capital Acqusitions Tax from €332,084 to €250,000.

1601 Property: Stamp Duty for commercial property transfers will be reduced from the current top rate of 6% to a flat rate of 2% on all amounts from midnight.


From
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1206/budget.html

6600

From what I'm hearing the changes in capital taxes will be good for genuine cases of farmers passing on their land IF its going to be farmed by the next generation, i.e. no tax liability. For anyone else tough luck I suppose.
BTW stamp duty exemption for young farmers could not have been touched this year as the existing legislation is in place for transfers up to 31.12.12. The IFA always put this in the pre-budget sub even though they know it can't be affected. Optics I think its called.
The reduced stamp duty rate is very welcome. If a fella >35 buys a bit of land 6% was very steep. Now 2%.

bugsy087

I bought my house in may 2008 does anyone know if I will be entitled to the new interest relief

nashmach

66, I agree with you but there was also something mentioned about the age of the transferor but I'd need to read it properly.

I hadn't realised the stamp duty had fallen and even as a young nearly trained farmer I'd welcome that.

Brian2850

Reduction in stamp very welcome... I'm presuming that the 50% reduction still stands in cases where the transfer is from a father to a son. If thats the case, guys currently in training with Teagasc to benefit from the young trained farmers allowance will see the benefit of that course fall significantly.

The cost of doing the course is somewhere in the order of €2,000-€2,500 before the cost of time spent doing the course is considered. When you consider this against a 1% stamp duty liability, you need to be acquiring a sizeable asset to justify it.

Username John

bugsy087 wrote: »

I bought my house in may 2008 does anyone know if I will be entitled to the new interest relief

Well, the devil is in the detail - but everything I have seen so far states 2008, so I assume as long as you took out yer mortgage in 2008, you should qualify.


Mortgage Interest Relief
Mortgage Interest Relief is increased to 30% for First-Time Buyers 2004-2008.

From
http://www.budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2012/Documents/Summary%20of%202012%20Budget%20and%20Estimates%20Measures%20Policy%20Changes.pdf

pakalasa

Link to the actual increases;

http://www.budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2012/Documents/Taxation%20Annexes%20to%20the%20Summary%20of%202012%20Budget%20and%20Estimates%20Measures.pdf

ml100

stamp duty reduced to 1% for farm transfers to children, not bad, paid 3% last year:(

Cherry Blossom

ml100 wrote: »

stamp duty reduced to 1% for farm transfers to children, not bad, paid 3% last year:(

Does this include land/machinery changing hands by inheritance?

6600

There's no stamp duty on things like machinery or stock as there's no document that needs to be physically stamped to facilitate the transfer.

6600

Brian2850 wrote: »

Reduction in stamp very welcome... I'm presuming that the 50% reduction still stands in cases where the transfer is from a father to a son.

Just looking at the Revenue budget summary there and the 50% rate for relations is to remain in place until the end of 2014. After that the standard rate will apply.

ml100

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Does this include land/machinery changing hands by inheritance?

no, you don't pay any stamp duty on inheritances (land or machinery), you only pay on transfers, I'm not sure on machinery transfers, I was advised not to mention machinery in transfer deed just in case.

6600

Agree with you fully on that. This measure should increase demand so thereby increasing price. That's assuming supply of land does not increase. However I think that there are so many factors contributing to an increase in land coming to market that nothing can stop land prices continuing to fall.
If you paid €200k for land last week you would have had to pay €12k stamp. This week that figure is €4k. €8,000 difference.
Also there are lots of people who only get a chance to take over the farm when they're over 35. Stamp duty is unavoidable in this case however if the farm is transferred on death there is no liability. The high stamp duty rate of 3% in this case was acting as a deterrent to farms being transferred before death. Now its 1%. On a farm worth €1m the saving is €20,000. A lot less money for a new farmer to find

johngalway

galwayhillbilly wrote: »

• The minimum stocking density has been increased from 0.15lu/ha to 0.30lu/ha.
• The minimum retention period has been increased from 3 months to 6 months and will be calculated over 12 months.

That will affect a number of people I imagine. Older farmers who are slowing down keeping a few beasts for a few months of the year to get the cheque and people with a high ratio of commonage to fenced land.

tweety11981

Great to see stamp duty has fallen. I guess not many will be doing the courses now as they will be paying less, 1%. I am aware that 'young trained farmers' must spend at least 50% of their time working on their farm for 6 years if I'm correct, don't know if this applies to non trained "farmers?" Wonder will these courses hold out..

milkprofit

rotten budget and--- ifa welcomes it ---do the figures
estimate cost me 850 reps
1000e diesel --car tax --200
1000 vat
1000-2000 vhi
milk levy on me while he gives tax consessions to industery to go to brazil china etc
and some more in small print What will it cost you

6600

Don't know anything about milk but is that milk levy not basically just a tax on every litre of milk? Sure don't all the companies have their own marketing networks/departments? Weren't Glanbia thinking of moving away from the Dairy Board altogether? Our milk companies are some of the biggest in the world - why would the government think they could be better at marketing than someone whose business it is? So is this levy just tax by another name?

KCTK

I attended something a few months ago where the boss of the dairy board gave a presentation, I couldn't believe it, if these are the guys the dairy farmers are banking on selling all the increased products to the world over the next 5 to 10 years then I'd be worried, main point of presentation was about how brilliant they were. In Q&A section he said no real markets opening up in China?? only to be contridicted a few momenths later by another speaker who said a chinese delegation visited one of the large Irish producers a few weeks before that with a view to signing a large contract!! Also why do farmers pay a levy for a marketing board who actually work for the Kerry/Glambia's etc, think as you say they can do there own marketing alot better.

6600 wrote: »

Don't know anything about milk but is that milk levy not basically just a tax on every litre of milk? Sure don't all the companies have their own marketing networks/departments? Weren't Glanbia thinking of moving away from the Dairy Board altogether? Our milk companies are some of the biggest in the world - why would the government think they could be better at marketing than someone whose business it is? So is this levy just tax by another name?

6600

That's the way it appears to me also. Self-preservation is the name of the game for these guys. We're probably on very touchy ground here but dare I suggest the same could be the case with Bord Bia? The meat factories seem to be doing a very good job of marketing, a few months ago we had a bunch of buyers from Swedish supermarkets looking at our farm and animals. They were brought over by our meat factory and it had nothing to do with Bord Bia as far as I'm aware.
Farming does not need deadwood public sector meddling with what the private companies can do better anyway. That's my opinion anyway.