A speech with a different purpose

Chicke

Who feels that the address by our taoiseach was not about the budget at all but the preperation of us for the fact that the taoiseach of our country is on friday going to give away our economic sovereignty in principle.
He looks spooked to me.
Something has happened.
The man who demanded more action from Europe,who refused to entertain the possibility of a treaty but who wanted to use current structures,the man who called on the ecb to act immediately has gone.
And in his place a person who wants to ensure we don't make the same mistakes again.like naughty schoolchildren.by giving our economic powers away?

meglome

Chicke wrote: »

And in his place a person who wants to ensure we don't make the same mistakes again.like naughty schoolchildren.by giving our economic powers away?

But that's how we behaved and if there were proper checks to stop us we wouldn't be in this state.

hmmm

Chicke wrote: »

The man who demanded more action from Europe,who refused to entertain the possibility of a treaty but who wanted to use current structures,the man who called on the ecb to act immediately has gone.

How much power do you think the leader of one small European country has? At best he can influence discussions, and from here it's hard to know how much Ireland has influenced the discussions. Certainly the potential of an Irish referendum has surely influenced the debate, but at some point the large nations are going to make that our problem to deal with if they believe that treaty change is the only solution.

Peanut

Persuading the voting Irish public to look beyond nationalistic politics is a harder sell than simply passing a budget, so yes I would agree.

If "Giving away our economic sovereignty" means actually sticking to the types of rules & limits in future that the Eurozone countries were meant to be doing from the start, and that were completely ignored, then all the better.

Seth Brundle

Hasn't our economic sovereignty already been given away?

meglome

kbannon wrote: »

Hasn't our economic sovereignty already been given away?

They've been saying that since we joined the EU in 1972. Maybe in another 40 years.

irishh_bob

meglome wrote: »

They've been saying that since we joined the EU in 1972. Maybe in another 40 years.

40 mins would be too long for you

lightspeed

Surely Enda, Sarkozy and Angela Merkel know that the Irish will never vote to allow a fiscal union take place and to give away our economic sovereignty on a permanent basis by agreeing to such a radical treaty change. We could have over a hundered referendums and it will never be yes. I don't see how they can change the treaty without a referendum and it won't be a yes vote no matter how bad we are told it will be if we vote no.
Can anybody confirm when this address to the nation was first announced?
It's awfully coincidental that we have this address to the nation for the first time in over 3 decades just days after Angel Merkel spoke of an immediate need for a fiscal union otherwise the euro is finished. It is also just a week before this big summit planned for next week.
His reference to Europe and mention of the euro currency has also worried me given the circumstances given what Angela Merkel has demanded.
Was that Enda Kenny or Chicken Little?

meglome

irishh_bob wrote: »

40 mins would be too long for you

Almost word for word statements were made about us joining the EU in 1972. In the Lisbon the same statements were rolled out. For this next treaty I'll safely say they will be rolled out again. Yet I haven't seen our independence being hurt other than when we went mad spending and had to pay the piper. The funny thing in all of this is if the EU actually had taken our 'sovereignty' like many claimed we wouldn't have been able to make the mess we did.

lightspeed wrote: »

Surely Enda, Sarkozy and Angela Merkel know that the Irish will never vote to allow a fiscal union take place and to give away our economic sovereignty on a permanent basis by agreeing to such a radical treaty change. We could have over a hundered referendums and it will never be yes. I don't see how they can change the treaty without a referendum and it won't be a yes vote no matter how bad we are told it will be if we vote no.

So given what we've just done to ourselves do you not think it would be a good idea to have more government oversight?

lightspeed

Peanut wrote: »

Persuading the voting Irish public to look beyond nationalistic politics is a harder sell than simply passing a budget, so yes I would agree.

If "Giving away our economic sovereignty" means actually sticking to the types of rules & limits in future that the Eurozone countries were meant to be doing from the start, and that were completely ignored, then all the better.

If you think the Irish people are going to believe that when the Germans are doing our federal budget that they will consider the implications and care about the living conditions of the state of Ireland or its governor then you are in a state of denile. What you are talking about is a united states of Europe.
Recently the prime minister if Poland suggested we should have a president of Europe just like the USA.
I'm not sure if that is a bad thing but If I can bet on it this referendum in paddy power if would be a safer bet to to gamble on a no vote than on betting on the survival of the euro or perhaps one is equal to the other.
If the Germans and the French feel it nessecary can they kick us out of the euro?

Desire2

Peanut wrote: »

If "Giving away our economic sovereignty" means actually sticking to the types of rules & limits in future that the Eurozone countries were meant to be doing from the start, and that were completely ignored, then all the better.

Lets not forget that both Germany and France who seem to think they are the EU and all other Countries are by invitation only both broke the rules of not exceeding the borrowing rate to no more than 3% of GDP as well as the bold Children they now speak to in such a condescending manner.

irishh_bob

lightspeed wrote: »

Surely Enda, Sarkozy and Angela Merkel know that the Irish will never vote to allow a fiscal union take place and to give away our economic sovereignty on a permanent basis by agreeing to such a radical treaty change. We could have over a hundered referendums and it will never be yes. I don't see how they can change the treaty without a referendum and it won't be a yes vote no matter how bad we are told it will be if we vote no.
Can anybody confirm when this address to the nation was first announced?
It's awfully coincidental that we have this address to the nation for the first time in over 3 decades just days after Angel Merkel spoke of an immediate need for a fiscal union otherwise the euro is finished. It is also just a week before this big summit planned for next week.
His reference to Europe and mention of the euro currency has also worried me given the circumstances given what Angela Merkel has demanded.
Was that Enda Kenny or Chicken Little?

100 euro says the first referendum will return a strong YES , as ive said in other threads , too many people are well rewarded by the state in this country and too many people would see huge increases in interest mortgage payments were we to go back to the punt

il vote NO but i see an emphatic YES vote , money trumps nationalism every time in 2011

irishh_bob

meglome wrote: »

Almost word for word statements were made about us joining the EU in 1972. In the Lisbon the same statements were rolled out. For this next treaty I'll safely say they will be rolled out again. Yet I haven't seen our independence being hurt other than when we went mad spending and had to pay the piper. The funny thing in all of this is if the EU actually had taken our 'sovereignty' like many claimed we wouldn't have been able to make the mess we did.



So given what we've just done to ourselves do you not think it would be a good idea to have more government oversight?

i think you have self esteem issues when it comes to your nationality

meglome

lightspeed wrote: »

If you think the Irish people are going to believe that when the Germans are doing our federal budget that they will consider the implications and care about the living conditions of the state of Ireland or its governor then you are in a state of denile. What you are talking about is a united states of Europe.

The big problem here is no one is actually suggesting the Germans would be doing our budget. So you've reached a conclusion based on a fantasy.

irishh_bob wrote: »

i think you have self esteem issues when it comes to your nationality

Nope but I never blame others for things that happened much closer to home.

irishh_bob wrote: »

il vote NO but i see an emphatic YES vote , money trumps nationalism every time in 2011

I know it's madness but how about we read what's proposed and vote on it.

irishh_bob

meglome wrote: »

The big problem here is no one is actually suggesting the Germans would be doing our budget. So you've reached a conclusion based on a fantasy.



Nope but I never blame others for things that happened much closer to home.



I know it's madness but how about we read what's proposed and vote on it.

am i right in saying that you have no problem with the idea of our tax code and spending policies being set in brussells because thats the impression you give

meglome

irishh_bob wrote: »

am i right in saying that you have no problem with the idea of our tax code and spending policies being set in brussells because thats the impression you give

Sorry but no country in the EU is going to hand over the reigns to the EU. What is being proposed is that governments must meet certain criteria or face real penalties. I honestly think that would be a good idea and would have stopped us getting into the current mess.

lightspeed

meglome wrote: »

Almost word for word statements were made about us joining the EU in 1972. In the Lisbon the same statements were rolled out. For this next treaty I'll safely say they will be rolled out again. Yet I haven't seen our independence being hurt other than when we went mad spending and had to pay the piper. The funny thing in all of this is if the EU actually had taken our 'sovereignty' like many claimed we wouldn't have been able to make the mess we did.

So given what we've just done to ourselves do you not think it would be a good idea to have more government oversight?

Because the Germans care more about Germans and the French care more about france . You make it sound like we already have a united states of Europe and share the same love for our newly founded country but we don't.
It won't be the case that the Germans will allow us to make our own adjustments, they will be pulling the strings in the interests of germany the french in the interests of france and not just now but permanently even after we have given the IMF lenders their return on investment.
It may be best for Ireland to vote yes for such a referendum but it will never happen.
I saw a quote from Angela Merkel on CNN that said
Angela Merkel - Euro Crisis "Politics has failed"
I think she means democracy has failed and cannot be tolerated for the euro to survive.

Dan_Solo

Peanut wrote: »

If "Giving away our economic sovereignty" means actually sticking to the types of rules & limits in future that the Eurozone countries were meant to be doing from the start, and that were completely ignored, then all the better.

Rules like "no blanket guarantee", you know the thing that got us into all this mess, that the ECB was only too delighted (and probably amazed) for us to agree to?
We got played, pure an simple.

Desire2

Oh for goodness sake why will nobody on any forum just admit that the 'Freedom' that was fought for over hundreds of years is now lost?

They have us by the balls and are sure our hearts and minds will follow.

The Fiscal union would amount to a permanent loss of Sovereignty, no more and no less.

that is the ultimate question for a Referendum and pussyfooting around the foibles of European politics will not change that.

It will be about a Central EU Govt or some semblance of us having a Govt whose strings are not pulled by others.

Dan_Solo

Desire2 wrote: »

The Fiscal union would amount to a permanent loss of Sovereignty, no more and no less.

TBH I have no problem whatsoever with a fiscal union, so long as we have full voting rights in that union. What I don't want is what we currently have: secret deals with Germany who then have secret deals with the ECB. It stinks. It wouldn't be allowed inside Germany itself.

Peanut

Desire2 wrote: »

[/B]

Lets not forget that both Germany and France who seem to think they are the EU and all other Countries are by invitation only both broke the rules of not exceeding the borrowing rate to no more than 3% of GDP as well as the bold Children they now speak to in such a condescending manner.

Absolutely, but it doesn't change the fact that if these rules were followed more astutely then perhaps we would not be in the mess we're in - given that we've seen how political expediency triumphs over stability, a more stringent enforcement is hardly a bad thing.

SeanW

meglome wrote: »

But that's how we behaved and if there were proper checks to stop us we wouldn't be in this state.

I think it's safe to say that our current budgetary problems would be nowhere near as bad but for the - highly questionable - decision not to let the banks fail and tell the bondholders to go to Hell. That would have saved us something North of €70bn euro.

Granted the actual annual budgets during the tiger years were irresponsible, but I think a part of "If we had behaved" would also include not putting the people on the hook for the irresponsibility of the banking sector (which BTW was partly caused by a European Central Bank that was primarily concerned with supporting France and Germany's then weak economy with cheap credit). We NEVER voted for these insane policies and they are NOT in our interests.

But I seem to recall that a lot of pressure to do precisely that came from our so-called friends in "Europe."

Even if better budget oversight is a good idea, there is no way in Hell I will be voting to allow an abstract supra-national government to take more power and centralise it in Brussels.

So if FG is reading this, don't agree to anything that will require a referendum because I will vote NO, I will campaign for a NO vote and I don't care if you don't like the answer and tell us to come back and "get it right" because I'll do the same for the 2nd referendum, the 3rd and any subsequent referenda.

Desire2

Dan_Solo wrote: »

TBH I have no problem whatsoever with a fiscal union,

It would not be so much a Union, more bullies getting their way,
Corporate tax etc would be equal most likely.
common interest rates have proven to be a disaster.

the Union would be hopping as high as the stronger economies dictated............or else!

so long as we have full voting rights in that union.

We would probably get 'full voting rights' as a sop to us.but i can imagine the intimidation if our govt tried to stop anything.[/QUOTE]

rumour

Chicke wrote: »

Who feels that the address by our taoiseach was not about the budget at all but the preperation of us for the fact that the taoiseach of our country is on friday going to give away our economic sovereignty in principle.
He looks spooked to me.
Something has happened.
The man who demanded more action from Europe,who refused to entertain the possibility of a treaty but who wanted to use current structures,the man who called on the ecb to act immediately has gone.
And in his place a person who wants to ensure we don't make the same mistakes again.like naughty schoolchildren.by giving our economic powers away?

Bye bye republic......

rumour

meglome wrote: »

The big problem here is no one is actually suggesting the Germans would be doing our budget. So you've reached a conclusion based on a fantasy.

No no paddy will do the work, hans will make sure its done right and approve or not as the case may be.

Has this country no dignity..... obviously not

Squall19

Desire2 wrote: »

It will be about a Central EU Govt or some semblance of us having a Govt whose strings are not pulled by others.

Well nothing will change for the people of this country until we elect people fit for the job.

They don't exist.

Scofflaw

Can people try to contribute a bit more than this farcical "Paddy this...Hans that" lowbrow stuff?

moderately,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Desire2 wrote: »

Oh for goodness sake why will nobody on any forum just admit that the 'Freedom' that was fought for over hundreds of years is now lost?

They have us by the balls and are sure our hearts and minds will follow.

The Fiscal union would amount to a permanent loss of Sovereignty, no more and no less.

that is the ultimate question for a Referendum and pussyfooting around the foibles of European politics will not change that.

It will be about a Central EU Govt or some semblance of us having a Govt whose strings are not pulled by others.

The problem there is the idea that sovereignty is an all or nothing thing, which it isn't. Yes, our government will have less freedom of action ( = sovereignty), but no, that's not the same as handing away all their freedom of action - which means that it's not the same as having a central EU government.

And, for the love of all that's holy - we're one country. There are 16 other eurozone countries. Whatever rules we agree to have to be agreed by all the others as well. Only two of those countries are France and Germany. The majority of the rest are not being bailed out. Why would they agree to hand over their government? Why would France agree to hand over its government to Germany? Think a little!

regards,
Scofflaw

lightspeed

meglome wrote: »

The big problem here is no one is actually suggesting the Germans would be doing our budget. So you've reached a conclusion based on a fantasy.


This years budget was circulated in the bundestag before going through the dail and you think if we agree to a fiscal union in which the germans are going to dictate, and the french have pretty much already said we are not going to be allowed to retain our corporate tax rate ,that ireland will be doing its own budget.

Its not fantasy , your must just be high. Anybody who thinks we the people will give more control to foreign neighbours who will have no mercy or concern where the cuts come from is delusional. The difference is that the germans wont care where the cuts come from, as long as the euro is stable , which in theory sounds ok but in reality it means democracy will be exterminated. The only way democracy can exist is if politicians are held accountable and whats being proposed is that brusells dictated by germany and france will be in control with no accountability.
A foreign occupatin without the need for a single foreign troop on our soil or bullet to be fired.
Most people i spoken with regret voting yes the second time round for the Lisbon and now they expect this to pass a referendum.
No matter what propoganda is put out there it will be a NO vote.
to qoute Angel Merker "Politics has not worked"

nesf

Scofflaw wrote: »

Think a little!

Heaven forbid!

Chicke

look Kenny knew and we all know that a treaty will not pass here. kenny has spent the last month going to see the de facto powers that be in germany and france telling them that. So germany and france know that a treaty will not pass here. they also have according to Barrossa suffient powers as it is to impose further discipline. but no, they need to introduce an unpassable treaty change.
Germany and France want ireland out and Kenny knows this.
Merkel spooks the market in 2009 saying bondholders must suffer some pain and the interest rates spikes on our bonds within weeks
We are pushed into protecting the banks who have already incurred a market determined risk premium by europe and which is the only reason that we had to bring in the troika in the first place
We were forced to suffer a punitive interest rate for a country on its knees
The IMF want to burn the bondholders but like good citizens of Europe we do what we are told
We and the EC didnt want a treaty change but germany and france have demanded it and guess who one. where is the democracy in that and who is the leader of Europe
it is a scary time for ireland

nesf

Chicke wrote: »

look Kenny knew and we all know that a treaty will not pass here. kenny has spent the last month going to see the de facto powers that be in germany and france telling them that. So germany and france know that a treaty will not pass here. they also have according to Barrossa suffient powers as it is to impose further discipline. but no, they need to introduce an unpassable treaty change.
Germany and France want ireland out and Kenny knows this.
Merkel spooks the market in 2009 saying bondholders must suffer some pain and the interest rates spikes on our bonds within weeks
We are pushed into protecting the banks who have already incurred a market determined risk premium by europe and which is the only reason that we had to bring in the troika in the first place
We were forced to suffer a punitive interest rate for a country on its knees
The IMF want to burn the bondholders but like good citizens of Europe we do what we are told
We and the EC didnt want a treaty change but germany and france have demanded it and guess who one. where is the democracy in that and who is the leader of Europe
it is a scary time for ireland

Um, do you know why we need a new treaty?

SeanW

nesf wrote: »

Um, do you know why we need a new treaty?

Because Brussels wants even more power? And we actually have a Constituional safeguard against politicians giving it to them without our consent (for now).

K-9

Desire2 wrote: »

[/B]

Lets not forget that both Germany and France who seem to think they are the EU and all other Countries are by invitation only both broke the rules of not exceeding the borrowing rate to no more than 3% of GDP as well as the bold Children they now speak to in such a condescending manner.

That's a very fair point, this should apply to all countries, including Germany and France.

As for the rest of the posts, we've a €16 Billion deficit lads, estimated €13 Billion next year with no bank payments. Maybe as time goes by the bank cop out excuse for the bail out will die down, and some other populist whinge will take over.

When people whinge about banks and bondholders and not whinge about our huge current budget deficit, they aren't grasping the full picture.

nesf

SeanW wrote: »

Because Brussels wants even more power? And we actually have a Constituional safeguard against politicians giving it to them without our consent (for now).

No, I asked why do we need a new treaty. Why won't the current treaties do?

Scofflaw

SeanW wrote: »

Because Brussels wants even more power? And we actually have a Constituional safeguard against politicians giving it to them without our consent (for now).

But "Brussels" - that is, the Commission - has said that it can get by with the current treaties.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Chicke

That is true k9 ,we do have a huge defecit and shame on us.The lads are working hard to get it under control.it is also highly unlikely that
we would have had to receive a bailout were it for our budget defect alone .it is the costs of the bank bailout on top of that that made things unsustainable.
So here we are in a bailout as architected by Europe (truchet insisted we save de banks) in an extremely vulnerable position perhaps facing the possibility of facing a treaty we don't want or face consequences we don't want
Kenny was a cowed kitten.I hope he goes there on Friday and looks after Irish interests.

Maura74

Chicke wrote: »

Kenny was a cowed kitten.I hope he goes there on Friday and looks after Irish interests.

What interest….. Ireland is bankrupt and has been for years due to the past and present governments not been able to run the country. Some people that have been given the rights to write their own salaries and T&C with impunity. :(

Turnstyle

I love all these posts of the Irish wont accept this, resounding no vote to any referendum etc The Irish electorate will accept whatever spin it is spoon fed for good or bad, Kenny already got the ball rolling last night with this garble of a speech for what is coming... a FF bagman and spoofer very nearly got elected as president ffs...

meglome

SeanW wrote: »

I think it's safe to say that our current budgetary problems would be nowhere near as bad but for the - highly questionable - decision not to let the banks fail and tell the bondholders to go to Hell. That would have saved us something North of €70bn euro.

Your figures assume the banks won't be worth anything. I imagine they are not worth much right now but in the future they will be worth a large something. Our up to 20 billion a year over spending is just gone and will make up the largest part of what we owe.

rumour wrote: »

No no paddy will do the work, hans will make sure its done right and approve or not as the case may be.

Has this country no dignity..... obviously not

Certainly if that's how we frame making sensible moves to protect the Eurozone then I do fear for us. Though not for the same reasons as you.

lightspeed wrote: »

This years budget was circulated in the bundestag before going through the dail and you think if we agree to a fiscal union in which the germans are going to dictate, and the french have pretty much already said we are not going to be allowed to retain our corporate tax rate ,that ireland will be doing its own budget.

Some leap there,...from the Germans having the legal right to see our budget as they bailed us out to jumping to some fiscal union. Just as well no one is proposing what you suggest or if they were it wouldn't be passed in the first place by the other Eurozone countries.

lightspeed wrote: »

Its not fantasy , your must just be high. Anybody who thinks we the people will give more control to foreign neighbours who will have no mercy or concern where the cuts come from is delusional. The difference is that the germans wont care where the cuts come from, as long as the euro is stable , which in theory sounds ok but in reality it means democracy will be exterminated. The only way democracy can exist is if politicians are held accountable and whats being proposed is that brusells dictated by germany and france will be in control with no accountability.
A foreign occupatin without the need for a single foreign troop on our soil or bullet to be fired.
Most people i spoken with regret voting yes the second time round for the Lisbon and now they expect this to pass a referendum.
No matter what propoganda is put out there it will be a NO vote.
to qoute Angel Merker "Politics has not worked"

EU stole our babies blah blah blah. You just reached a conclusion based on a fantasy again.

Turnstyle wrote: »

I love all these posts of the Irish wont accept this, resounding no vote to any referendum etc The Irish electorate will accept whatever spin it is spoon fed for good or bad, Kenny already got the ball rolling last night with this garble of a speech for what is coming... a FF bagman and spoofer very nearly got elected as president ffs...

I'd hope we'd just read any proposal and acting in our best interests. For all the EU is stealing our babies rubbish I can't quite figure out what we'd actually lose of consequence. It seems to me losing the ability to fúck up is a great thing to lose.

atila

I have suspected for a long time that a mechanism would be found so that treaty changes to Lisbon could be achieved within parliment rather then by referendum.

It makes sense that the EU and Irish government would avoid the chance of a popular backlash at the polls scuppering EU wide initiatives to protect the currency union.

Then last night I found something Enda Kenny said may be a hint that suggests there actually might be a referendum. He was specific when he said "we will hold a referendum next year, to abolish the seanad". Is it likely that on the same day there may be a Lisbon III referendum also? To be revealed on Friday I suppose. There'll be a lot at stake on that vote but is I suspect the broad establishment from Unions to Government to IBEC, farmers etc will come out on the Yes side and just sneak it.

dissed doc

lightspeed wrote: »

If you think the Irish people are going to believe that when the Germans are doing our federal budget that they will consider the implications and care about the living conditions of the state of Ireland or its governor then you are in a state of denile. What you are talking about is a united states of Europe.
Recently the prime minister if Poland suggested we should have a president of Europe just like the USA.
I'm not sure if that is a bad thing but If I can bet on it this referendum in paddy power if would be a safer bet to to gamble on a no vote than on betting on the survival of the euro or perhaps one is equal to the other.
If the Germans and the French feel it nessecary can they kick us out of the euro?

The Germans have been the single largest contributor to the funds Ireland got through the EU since we joined - that is just straight cash, straight to Ireland, and amounts to 35-40 billion euros in todays terms. Not loaned, not borrowed. All those structural funds and projects to develop the country - came from Germany. Before we joined our imbecilic governments and US-born president ripped up public transport and economically isolated the country, strangulating development. Let go of the Anglophone monoglot cultural obsessions.

Germany recently withheld delivery of a nuclear submarine until Israel made political concessions regarding Palestine - forcing Israel to hand over 100 million US dollars in revenue due to the Palestinian Authority.

Germany is about the only country that actually has supported Ireland with actions, and also supports other countries similarly. We are much much much better off with them, 120%.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Turnstyle

so the solution to our problems is to just let someone else try and look after us? hmmmm

the germans, a great bunch of lads

Scofflaw

atila wrote: »

I have suspected for a long time that a mechanism would be found so that treaty changes to Lisbon could be achieved within parliment rather then by referendum.

It makes sense that the EU and Irish government would avoid the chance of a popular backlash at the polls scuppering EU wide initiatives to protect the currency union.

Then last night I found something Enda Kenny said may be a hint that suggests there actually might be a referendum. He was specific when he said "we will hold a referendum next year, to abolish the seanad". Is it likely that on the same day there may be a Lisbon III referendum also? To be revealed on Friday I suppose. There'll be a lot at stake on that vote but is I suspect the broad establishment from Unions to Government to IBEC, farmers etc will come out on the Yes side and just sneak it.

If there's no referendum, then almost by definition no sovereignty is being lost, because the loss of sovereignty is what triggers a referendum here. The only way anyone can get round that is to introduce treaty changes that don't actually impact sovereignty - and if the treaty changes don't impact sovereignty, what's the issue exactly?

cordially,
Scofflaw

irishh_bob

lightspeed wrote: »

meglome wrote: »

The big problem here is no one is actually suggesting the Germans would be doing our budget. So you've reached a conclusion based on a fantasy.


This years budget was circulated in the bundestag before going through the dail and you think if we agree to a fiscal union in which the germans are going to dictate, and the french have pretty much already said we are not going to be allowed to retain our corporate tax rate ,that ireland will be doing its own budget.

Its not fantasy , your must just be high. Anybody who thinks we the people will give more control to foreign neighbours who will have no mercy or concern where the cuts come from is delusional. The difference is that the germans wont care where the cuts come from, as long as the euro is stable , which in theory sounds ok but in reality it means democracy will be exterminated. The only way democracy can exist is if politicians are held accountable and whats being proposed is that brusells dictated by germany and france will be in control with no accountability.
A foreign occupatin without the need for a single foreign troop on our soil or bullet to be fired.
Most people i spoken with regret voting yes the second time round for the Lisbon and now they expect this to pass a referendum.
No matter what propoganda is put out there it will be a NO vote.
to qoute Angel Merker "Politics has not worked"

i voted YES to every european referendum presented to us in this country and im ashamed of myself but i do honestly believe that any referendum on further integration with a view to fiscal union will be passed in this country , irish people value money very highly and we have shown that we perfer a slow drawn out period of pain than a quick sharp shock to the system , if we were to go back to the punt , thier would be huge pain overnight and no politican in this country has the guts to cut the old age pension in half , guards , teachers and nurses pay in half or thier own for that matter , thats before we even focus on the increase in interest rates which would be nesscesery in a return to the punt , thats not to say thier wont be reduced living standards under a european finance minister ( michael noonan having been given his p45 ) , thier would be but it would be a reduction at a much slower rate compared to the big bang which would come about upon leaving the single currency

our political class dont have the stomach to walk away , thier are too many people either paid by the state or who recieve benefits from the state who have it too good , thier are too many people who are already in enough pain with mortgage repayments at under 3% interest

ireland will vote YES , material comforts trump nationalism nowadays in the west everytime , we,ve become soft

irishh_bob

Chicke wrote: »

That is true k9 ,we do have a huge defecit and shame on us.The lads are working hard to get it under control.it is also highly unlikely that
we would have had to receive a bailout were it for our budget defect alone .it is the costs of the bank bailout on top of that that made things unsustainable.
So here we are in a bailout as architected by Europe (truchet insisted we save de banks) in an extremely vulnerable position perhaps facing the possibility of facing a treaty we don't want or face consequences we don't want
Kenny was a cowed kitten.I hope he goes there on Friday and looks after Irish interests.

its debatable whether we would have needed a bailout for our budget deficit alone , we could have just faced down unions and the poverty industry and cut hard , what cemented the need for a bailout was the bank guarentee which the ECB was fully in favour of in order to prevent contagion , berlins only priority is saving the single currency , if that means making paupers of fringe members so beit , thier not even hiding that anymore

irishh_bob

Permabear wrote: »

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as long as you were not hamstringed from making large profits , you wouldnt loose a wink of sleep if a single world goverment came about and was led by china , thats fine and your perogative but thier are still some old fashioned nationalistic ( but not dangerously so ) folk around who like the idea of having our own country with its own identity

anymore

Chicke wrote: »

Who feels that the address by our taoiseach was not about the budget at all but the preperation of us for the fact that the taoiseach of our country is on friday going to give away our economic sovereignty in principle.
He looks spooked to me.
Something has happened.
The man who demanded more action from Europe,who refused to entertain the possibility of a treaty but who wanted to use current structures,the man who called on the ecb to act immediately has gone.
And in his place a person who wants to ensure we don't make the same mistakes again.like naughty schoolchildren.by giving our economic powers away?

Answer one question, when last did this country have full control of its sovereignty ? When was it not relying on financial handouts from other countries ?

Dannyboy83

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

This.

I would like to see a move away from full Irish economic sovereignty, not because its a bad thing....but because we don't do it correctly.
Even when we have not being getting ourselves into catastrophes, our governments are, and always have been, inefficient and useless.

I would like to see a move toward a more efficient and competent method of governance. I don't particularly care what is is - it can be it socialist, it can be right wing - I don't really care. I am not opposed to socialism - I am merely opposed to the Irish excuse for socialism.

Full Irish Economic sovereignty means the Irish people are always getting screwed.

anymore

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

This.

I would like to see a move away from full Irish economic sovereignty, not because its a bad thing....but because we don't do it correctly.
Even when we have not being getting ourselves into catastrophes, our governments are, and always have been, inefficient and useless.

I would like to see a move toward a more efficient and competent method of governance. I don't particularly care what is is - it can be it socialist, it can be right wing - I don't really care. I am not opposed to socialism - I am merely opposed to the Irish excuse for socialism.

Full Irish Economic sovereignty means the Irish people are always getting screwed.

let us bear in mind that in reality small countires will always be subject to the forces generated by powerful countries. In this country we have been deluding ourselves that there is some ' parent like' being who exists to protect small countries such as ireland. There isnt - we will always be dependent to some extent on the good will of other more powerful countires.