Private Ambulance breaking red lights at speed.

joegriffinjnr

Today around 2pm a private ambulance (mercedes vito grey and green in colour) broke two sets of red lights on the Oscar Traynor Rd. As he was approaching the lights he stuck on his green lights on top of van and broke the lights. When he went through the lights he turned his greens off. He done this again at the next set of lights. Are these type of private ambulances allowed do this? What would the hurry be considering the person they are collecting or have already collected are dead.


The ambulance was very similar (if not the same one) to this :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-pwunhlWfs

Search this forum for any of the blue lights red lights purple lights threads and you will get your answer.

dfbemt

Is that the coroners ambulance or an ambulance run by a funeral director on behalf of the coroner?

Is there some EU law on the green light thing which makes it acceptable for ambulances?

BrianD

Hard to see any event that a coroners ambulance would need to break a red light.

Corruptable

In the UK, doctors on call are permitted to use a green flashing light. But it grants no privledge or exemption from any traffic laws. I'd hazard a guess that the situation is similar, if not more draconian, here.

Personally I've lost count of the times I've saw amber, clear, or green beacons abused by people from vets to security companies.

EMSCHAP

Green lights have absolutely no legal standing in this country, a fact that some of the on call doctor coops seem to have realised as they have removed them from some of their vehicles. Why is a vehicle which is used by an undertaker to remove deceased persons from the scene of a crime or accident, marked as an ambulance anyway?, as seen on many a TV news programme. If they genuinely need to be removed in a hurry, surely an escort from the Garda could be provided. In our area, the local undertaker who is contracted to the HSE/Coroner uses a suitably equipped discrete station wagon for the purpose.

EMSCHAP

EMSCHAP wrote: »

a suitably equipped discrete station wagon for the purpose.

Sure where's the fun in that? Lights and sirens all the way!



I do think green lights should be covered by law and should grant additional road privileges (ability to break red lights when safe to do so, etc.) but the drivers of the cars should have to successfully complete an advanced driving course of some kind first.


Only ever seen the local Doctor on Call on green lights once, and that was for a photograph. Must say though, it actually didn't look too bad, and it stood out. I wouldn't be completely against assigning colours to each service (as in the USA, for example). Blue to Garda/Coast Guard, Green to Ambulance and red to fire service.

Though it's probably a little unnecessary at this stage.

TransplantedDub

You want to see confusing....I was a Call Firefighter for 5 years with the Dudley Fire Dept. in Massachusetts , USA..(I am actually from Dublin). We were issued Red light permits from the registry of motor vehicles, obtained for you by the FD . This entiled you to display a red warning light, forward facing on your dash when responding to a call to the fire station. Well, I got to tell ya, some lads had full strobe outfits on their cars, (almost looked like unmarked police cars when lit up !!)wig wag headlight flashers, fellas with SUV's or pickup trucks had full roof lightbars.
Dudley is on the border of Conneticutt, and the they have Volunteer Fire Police...so they and their firetrucks have blue lights. Because of the "Mutual Aid" arrangement, they would sometimes respond over the state line to our town, there would be private vehicles with blue lights responding. ...and as I started to say...to confuse the hell out of you..the Conneticutt State Police have red lights !!!:rolleyes:

alexlyons

not completely related but just something in the op that I noticed.

You mentioned he turned them on and off when going through red lights etc.
I know that some private agencies with lights that do have privileges to break them, are told to only use the lights when they need to.
so unlike say the guards who would respond with permanent blues and then sirens at red lights, everything is off until they need the blues at the lights, which can make it seem a bit like they are just using them to get around red lights, which isn't the case.

msg11

I think it's more a case of

1. Why have they got any form of flashing lights on the van, it's not a life or death situation.

2. If the person they are collecting or transporting is dead. Whats the big rush.

It's simple in my mind, they have no need to be driving fast, breaking red lights too ferry around a dead person. (I know that sounded harsh, but it is what it is)

Now if the person was an organ donor then I can see the rush, but in that case they should be fitted with Blue lights. We don't need a situation were there's a different shade of colour for what you can and can't do. It's simple at the moment, blue is the only legal light that can go against some parts of the road traffic act and let's leave it at that.

alexlyons

[QUOTE=msg11;76088736 It's simple at the moment, blue is the only legal light that can go against some parts of the road traffic act and let's leave it at that. [/QUOTE]

not all blue lights can though

Pataman

alexlyons wrote: »

not all blue lights can though

Care to expand on that?

groundhurling

Pataman wrote: »

Care to expand on that?

Different shades of blue ranging from baby blue to deep navy entitle you to different exemptions under the road traffic act :P

cocoshovel

Saw a "patient transport" ambulance flying through traffic on blues and two's yesterday. What type of emergency would that be attending?

This kind of one.

sgthighway

cocoshovel wrote: »

Saw a "patient transport" ambulance flying through traffic on blues and two's yesterday. What type of emergency would that be attending?

Maybe the patient had a Cardiac Arrest while been transported.

No Blue Lights or Sirens for me unless its a case of Loss of Life or Loss of Limb.

snubbleste

I regularly see a registered charity's animal van going through red lights with the driver on the phone held up to the ear. Difference is, it says 'animal rescue ambulance' on the side.

cocoshovel

sgthighway wrote: »

Maybe the patient had a Cardiac Arrest while been transported.

No Blue Lights or Sirens for me unless its a case of Loss of Life or Loss of Limb.

Possible I suppose but it was going away from the hospital, out of the city .
There are probably a few reasons why this would need to use blues and sirens but I just thought it was strange.

alexlyons

Pataman wrote: »

Care to expand on that?

very technically the coastguard can't.

flazio

msg11 wrote: »

1. Why have they got any form of flashing lights on the van, it's not a life or death situation.

Well more then likely it is a death situation. :P

aujopimur

On a slightly different note, many years ago a friend of mine had access to the family owened private ambulance which we used to travel from Cork to Thurles for a Munster final, in order to avoid the trafic jams etc. he used the blues & twos, all went well until a motorcycle cop decided to to give us an escort, if my memory serves me right he was fined £10 for his effort.

tommy21

Like this?

stevie06

alexlyons wrote: »

very technically the coastguard can't.

Technically they can! they are covered under the Road traffic act.

civdef

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/act/pub/0025/sec0087.html

Nope. Not all the agencies entitled to use warning lights & audible devices are covered by the other Road Traffic Act exemptions.

stevie06

civdef wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/act/pub/0025/sec0087.html

Nope. Not all the agencies entitled to use warning lights & audible devices are covered by the other Road Traffic Act exemptions.

ouch

I'm fairly sure the IMES was mentioned in the previous RTA................

apologies all, my mistake.

Turner

They might not be mentioned in the road traffic act.. but common sense applies.

Gardai (the people who enforce it) have very good relationships with all emergency services.

So I couldn't see any tickets being issued.

More like give them an escort.

Pataman

I wonder why they were excluded? Are they not a "real" emergency service?
The mind baffles

alexlyons

stevie06 wrote: »

ouch

I'm fairly sure the IMES was mentioned in the previous RTA................

apologies all, my mistake.

You're lucky I'm only seeing this now :P as I said, technically they can't.

Hooch

stevie06 wrote: »

ouch

I'm fairly sure the IMES was mentioned in the previous RTA................

apologies all, my mistake.

IMES were mentioned but only for blue lights (sirens we added in circa 2006 I think for them)

Pataman wrote: »

I wonder why they were excluded? Are they not a "real" emergency service?
The mind baffles

The Irish Coast Guard was only considered an Emergency Service last year.

The exemptions will come in time but with everything it will take just that....time. The big issue with ICG having lights is NO driver training whatsoever. This is the major stumbling block.

As Turner also said, common sense applies.

Tango Alpha 51

Cocoshovel,
The vehicle you asked about is indeed a PTS vehicle but these are currently being staffed by paramedics as opposed to emt's which the new PTS/ICS will be known. Currently these type of vehicles can be used to go out of board ie Dublin, Cork, Galway etc.
Why it was on blue lights coming out of Dublin is unknown but could be for a variety of reasons. Equally if you look at all the new PTS units in the NAS, they no longer have flashbars on the roof but still have grille/intersection LEDs, flashing headlights & sirens.

groundhurling

buzzman wrote: »

Cocoshovel,
The vehicle you asked about is indeed a PTS vehicle but these are currently being staffed by paramedics as opposed to emt's which the new PTS/ICS will be known. Currently these type of vehicles can be used to go out of board ie Dublin, Cork, Galway etc.
Why it was on blue lights coming out of Dublin is unknown but could be for a variety of reasons. Equally if you look at all the new PTS units in the NAS, they no longer have flashbars on the roof but still have grille/intersection LEDs, flashing headlights & sirens.

What's to say they weren't doing a critical care transport?! It does happen when the emergency ambulances are being stretched.

Tango Alpha 51

Nothing to suggest that at all if it's a Dublin based PTS wagon.

cocoshovel

buzzman wrote: »

Nothing to suggest that at all if it's a Dublin based PTS wagon.

It was actually Waterford, not that it overly matters what city it was.

What's to say they weren't doing a critical care transport?

Nothing. I dont know what they were doing and Im not trying to ridicule them or anything, just curious to what they could be involved in. Is there room for a bed in one of them or is it just all seats?

Pataman

That means that the bomb squad is also legally excluded from lights and sirens

Mycroft H

cocoshovel wrote: »

It was actually Waterford, not that it overly matters what city it was.



Nothing. I dont know what they were doing and Im not trying to ridicule them or anything, just curious to what they could be involved in. Is there room for a bed in one of them or is it just all seats?

I'd imagine there would be a stretcher in them, there would be room enough.

Mr Simpson

Pataman wrote: »

That means that the bomb squad is also legally excluded from lights and sirens

Which, I imagine, is why they always have a Garda escort

Tango Alpha 51

Coco,
Depending on the model, usually have 2 stretchers & seating for up to 4 walking patients. Different divisions within the NAS use these vehicles in different ways. The 10 version of the PTS bus has only 1 strecther & 2 seats (identical to the configuration of an emergency ambulance hence their not practical as a PTS wagon), whereas the new ones coming online look like our WAs vehicles but with out the blue lights on the roof, also the new ones take 2 stretchers & have the seating again for up to 4 people.

TylerIE

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure where's the fun in that? Lights and sirens all the way!



I do think green lights should be covered by law and should grant additional road privileges (ability to break red lights when safe to do so, etc.) but the drivers of the cars should have to successfully complete an advanced driving course of some kind first.


Only ever seen the local Doctor on Call on green lights once, and that was for a photograph. Must say though, it actually didn't look too bad, and it stood out. I wouldn't be completely against assigning colours to each service (as in the USA, for example). Blue to Garda/Coast Guard, Green to Ambulance and red to fire service.

Though it's probably a little unnecessary at this stage.

There was talk of specific colours a few years ago as part of CEN requirements but it never materialised. Something similar to Spain wtih your suggested combination except amber for ambulance - but I believe it was felt nobody would ever pay attention to an amber light.

The new Doctor on Call vehicles in the NE have no green lights. It may be as HIQA may have stated that that green lights have no legal standing. They have kept the wig-wag headlights and some weird roof box but no greens. Ive seen them on greens before when in convoy with AGS or HSE or responding to real emergencies and they did look smart. They also were quite fussy about their drivers getting advanced training.

As for those coroners ambulances, I suggest anybody concerned would contact AGS regarding any instances of dangerous driving by any vehicle. I have seen certain vehicles with green lights behaving in ludicrous ways in South County Dublin.

cocoshovel wrote: »

Saw a "patient transport" ambulance flying through traffic on blues and two's yesterday. What type of emergency would that be attending?

This kind of one.

Those ambulances are generally equipped similar to emergency ambulances (And indeed may have extra standard household plugs for ICU / CCU etc patients who have numerous pumps / etc) and if owned by a private service may be contracted by the HSE or a Private Hospital to provide emergency transports. IF its a HSE vehicle it may be used for critical transports, or indeed emergency calls if the crew are appropriately trained.

Keith186

I came to this forum to have a look to see was there any complaints of bad driving.

Just earlier at 19.25 Northbound on the M50 (near Ballymun exit I think) I had an ambulance, very similar to the one above but newer looking and it had a distinctive fixed blue light near the bottom at the back when the sirens were on, anyway, it started tailgating me and driving fairly close behind me by only a few meters at 120 km/h.

I was in the right hand lane overtaking a lot of drivers in the middle lane at a decent pace so I couldn't move in between them to let him past. I took my foot of the accelerator to slow down a little and speed up to get him further back from me.

Then he started flashing me and driving closer and when he couldn't bully me out of the way by doing that he threw on the sirens. All the cars in the middle lane slowed down and some moved into the left lane then so I had room and I moved in. The old guy driving the ambulance then overtook me and a bunch of cars and turned off the sirens and sped off at about 140/150 km/h. I seen him at the very end of the M50 heading onto the round about and he was bombing it through the amber lights onto the round about (with no sirens).

I was surprised to see an ambulance driver of all people tailgating other drivers. As well as doing that, it was obvious to all the drivers that he was only using the sirens to get where he was going quicker and that there was no emergency. Some mightn't get out of his way the next time if they see ambulance drivers taking the piss doing this.

I would have reported him for tailgating and abuse of the sirens but I couldn't get his reg plate because when he was going past with the sirens on there were cars slowing down and changing lanes to get out of his was quickly so I had to keep my eyes on everything else.

cocoshovel

I recently noticed that a HSE ambulance had a "hows my driving" sticker and a number to call on the back of it. Keep an eye for that next time.
on the other hand, call the gardai to report it. Its not like they're immune to the law and it doesnt matter if you dont have a reg. Deserved to be reported imo

TylerIE

cocoshovel wrote: »

I recently noticed that a HSE ambulance had a "hows my driving" sticker and a number to call on the back of it. Keep an eye for that next time.
on the other hand, call the gardai to report it. Its not like they're immune to the law and it doesnt matter if you dont have a reg. Deserved to be reported imo

I would be quite surprised if that was a HSE vehicle.

A certain private service which uses vehicles and livery with a great similarity to that of the HSE has the "Hows my Driving" Stickers on some of their vehicles. This services identity is not always obvious - on some of their vehicles it is only shown on the side with the text of the company name and a logo.

cocoshovel

TylerIE wrote: »

I would be quite surprised if that was a HSE vehicle.

A certain private service which uses vehicles and livery with a great similarity to that of the HSE has the "Hows my Driving" Stickers on some of their vehicles. This services identity is not always obvious - on some of their vehicles it is only shown on the side with the text of the company name and a logo.

The ambulance I saw it on did look a bit strange. It was a mercedes, similar to the HSE one.

This one I think. http://www.ukemergency.co.uk/ambulance/dscd0414.jpg

TylerIE

cocoshovel wrote: »

The ambulance I saw it on did look a bit strange. It was a mercedes, similar to the HSE one.

This one I think. http://www.ukemergency.co.uk/ambulance/dscd0414.jpg

Some private firms in Ireland have ambulances with the "box" on the back similar to the one in your picture.

Mycroft H

Keith186 wrote: »

I came to this forum to have a look to see was there any complaints of bad driving.

Just earlier at 19.25 Northbound on the M50 (near Ballymun exit I think) I had an ambulance, very similar to the one above but newer looking and it had a distinctive fixed blue light near the bottom at the back when the sirens were on, anyway, it started tailgating me and driving fairly close behind me by only a few meters at 120 km/h.

I was in the right hand lane overtaking a lot of drivers in the middle lane at a decent pace so I couldn't move in between them to let him past. I took my foot of the accelerator to slow down a little and speed up to get him further back from me.

Then he started flashing me and driving closer and when he couldn't bully me out of the way by doing that he threw on the sirens. All the cars in the middle lane slowed down and some moved into the left lane then so I had room and I moved in. The old guy driving the ambulance then overtook me and a bunch of cars and turned off the sirens and sped off at about 140/150 km/h. I seen him at the very end of the M50 heading onto the round about and he was bombing it through the amber lights onto the round about (with no sirens).

I was surprised to see an ambulance driver of all people tailgating other drivers. As well as doing that, it was obvious to all the drivers that he was only using the sirens to get where he was going quicker and that there was no emergency. Some mightn't get out of his way the next time if they see ambulance drivers taking the piss doing this.

I would have reported him for tailgating and abuse of the sirens but I couldn't get his reg plate because when he was going past with the sirens on there were cars slowing down and changing lanes to get out of his was quickly so I had to keep my eyes on everything else.

Was he using blue lights at any stage? I presume he was if the sirens went on. The sirens are only an addition to the blue lights in emergency transport.

However lets not jump to conclusions here.

There will be cases where people will abuse the blue lights, thats a given.

And there is cases where siren usage will be minimised for patient comfort and safety and only used to clear junctions and stubborn traffic.

Keith186

BX 19 wrote: »

Was he using blue lights at any stage? I presume he was if the sirens went on. The sirens are only an addition to the blue lights in emergency transport.

However lets not jump to conclusions here.

There will be cases where people will abuse the blue lights, thats a given.

And there is cases where siren usage will be minimised for patient comfort and safety and only used to clear junctions and stubborn traffic.

He only used the lights/sirens at the same time together. Definite case of abusing them.

I'm more pissed off a supposedly trained driver was dangerously tailgating me. To be honest if he had of just put the blue lights on in the first place and not tailgated me I wouldn't have minded so much and I would have made more of an effort to get out of his way.

Turner

Keith186 wrote: »

I came to this forum to have a look to see was there any complaints of bad driving.

Just earlier at 19.25 Northbound on the M50 (near Ballymun exit I think) I had an ambulance, very similar to the one above but newer looking and it had a distinctive fixed blue light near the bottom at the back when the sirens were on, anyway, it started tailgating me and driving fairly close behind me by only a few meters at 120 km/h.

I was in the right hand lane overtaking a lot of drivers in the middle lane at a decent pace so I couldn't move in between them to let him past. I took my foot of the accelerator to slow down a little and speed up to get him further back from me.

Then he started flashing me and driving closer and when he couldn't bully me out of the way by doing that he threw on the sirens. All the cars in the middle lane slowed down and some moved into the left lane then so I had room and I moved in. The old guy driving the ambulance then overtook me and a bunch of cars and turned off the sirens and sped off at about 140/150 km/h. I seen him at the very end of the M50 heading onto the round about and he was bombing it through the amber lights onto the round about (with no sirens).

I was surprised to see an ambulance driver of all people tailgating other drivers. As well as doing that, it was obvious to all the drivers that he was only using the sirens to get where he was going quicker and that there was no emergency. Some mightn't get out of his way the next time if they see ambulance drivers taking the piss doing this.

I would have reported him for tailgating and abuse of the sirens but I couldn't get his reg plate because when he was going past with the sirens on there were cars slowing down and changing lanes to get out of his was quickly so I had to keep my eyes on everything else.

Unless you were in the ambulance or listening to his radio you don't know what job he was on or how urgent it was.

Garda drivers in marked vehicles are trained on how to get people to move out of the way on motorways / dual carriage ways. They are trained to make progress through all traffic conditions.

They drive slightly to the right of the car they are closely following so their lights shine brightly in the persons right wing mirror.

This might seem like tailgating or dangerous to an untrained driver but as I said unless you are in the es vehicle or listening to their radio you don't know whats going on... At all.

alexlyons

Was just typing a post and turner posted.

My opinion is that whatever you think the driver is doing, be it tailgating, abusing the sirens and lights or whatever, get out of there way immediately when it is safe. You have no idea what the situation is and seconds count in emergency situations.

Make a complaint later if you wish, but allow them through. If you do, you may well save someones life. You can never be certain it's not an emergency, never.

Keith186

Turner wrote: »

Unless you were in the ambulance or listening to his radio you don't know what job he was on or how urgent it was.

Garda drivers in marked vehicles are trained on how to get people to move out of the way on motorways / dual carriage ways. They are trained to make progress through all traffic conditions.

They drive slightly to the right of the car they are closely following so their lights shine brightly in the persons right wing mirror.

This might seem like tailgating or dangerous to an untrained driver but as I said unless you are in the es vehicle or listening to their radio you don't know whats going on... At all.

The point is though he was driving up my ass for ages. The first port of call should be to put on the blue lights if it's an emergency. Far easier than doing what he did. The way it all went it was pretty obvious it wasn't an emergency.



alexlyons - I'll always get out of the way if it's an emergency and they have the sirens & blue lights on.

cocoshovel

Are you sure it was a HSE ambulance?

stretch00

Dear God, how silly things get out of hand.

1) No HSE ambulance has a sticker on it that says hows my driving.

2) If it was a HSE ambulance behind you there are a variety of reasons why they may have driven the way they did, all are operationally sound and I don't feel the need to explain them. Any other ES people here will understand them.

3) The obvious question, why were you driving in the right hand lane, if your post is accurate you were not overtaking, either that or you failed to plan your manouvere and read the road before doing so.

Please, by all means ask questions, but do not pass judgement or comment on things you obviously do not understand. Thats what we have politicians for......

Happy new year all.

Keith186

stretch00 wrote: »

Dear God, how silly things get out of hand.

1) No HSE ambulance has a sticker on it that says hows my driving.

2) If it was a HSE ambulance behind you there are a variety of reasons why they may have driven the way they did, all are operationally sound and I don't feel the need to explain them. Any other ES people here will understand them.

3) The obvious question, why were you driving in the right hand lane, if your post is accurate you were not overtaking, either that or you failed to plan your manouvere and read the road before doing so.

Please, by all means ask questions, but do not pass judgement or comment on things you obviously do not understand. Thats what we have politicians for......

Happy new year all.

1. I'm not sure if it had a sticker or not.

2. This was not an operationally sound way to drive an ambulance. Common sense should prevail and the blue lights should come on earlier instead of getting the ambulance into a dangerous tailgating scenario.
If you were there and seen it you would believe me, not all ES drivers stick to their rules and training. If you believe that then they must also train you to use blue lights and sirens as a last resort!

3. I was overtaking a long line of cars. I did plan my maneuver which was to overtake all the cars which I was doing at a decent pace, not going 2-3 km/h faster than them like some drivers. I'm well aware of my driving and what lane I should be driving in. I'd be the first person to let someone know to get out of the right hand lane if they aren't overtaking.

Please don't come on here commenting on things you obviously don't understand (especially since you weren't there), but by all means ask questions.


I simply came on here to criticise an ES driver because I believe they should know better than other drivers how not to drive. They aren't beyond criticism are they? I had a feeling I might have some posters who will defend them to the death though.