God is in the neurons

FootShooter

This is fascinating. Basically it explains the scientific neurological reason for why hardcore religious people are impossible to argue with and why it's impossible to get them to think rational and logical.

"If their opinions are challenged, their brains emit the same chemicals that are emitted when humans are in dangerous situations and are trying to survive. The more primitive part of the brain kicks in and interferes with rational thinking, and the limbic system can knock out most of their working memory, physically causing "narrow-mindedness""

Sarky

Deus Ex Neurotica?

antiskeptic

FootShooter wrote: »

This is fascinating. Basically it explains the scientific neurological reason for why hardcore religious people are impossible to argue with and why it's impossible to get them to think rational and logical.

The video can be dismissed out of hand since your remarks enscapsulate it's position.

1) You can argue with religious people. Happens on boards all the time

2) There is nothing irrational or illogical about the Christian position. Don't confuse a person believing water can be turned into wine with a person thinking irrationality.

What you might have meant was that it's impossible to get them to think only materialistically and naturalistically. But since those ideas are philosophical constructs (and are belief based, much like religion) all you're really saying is that religious people aren't prepared to believe in your particular god.

Since you won't believe in theirs, you're hardly in a position to complain.

Zombrex

antiskeptic wrote: »

The video can be dismissed out of hand since your remarks enscapsulate it's position.

1) You can argue with religious people. Happens on boards all the time

I think he meant in a structured reasonable fashion. You can argue with a insane homeless person about the people trying to steal his thoughts, but you aren't going to get very far.

antiskeptic wrote: »

2) There is nothing irrational or illogical about the Christian position. Don't confuse a person believing water can be turned into wine with a person thinking irrationality.

There are tons of things irrational and illogical about the Chrsitian position. Christians though have a hard time accepting this when it is put to them (possibly for reasons explained in this video).

Ah but Zombrex, isn't that just my atheist biased opinion, isn't it I how simply cannot accept when a Christian tells me the rational reasons.

Well a little test I like to perform is whether or not the rational reasons given for Christianity would also force believe in any other religion if equally applied to that religion.

All reasons I've encountered so far would, yet Christians don't accept these other religions (in fact if you want a chuckle go read Newsite's argument that Scientology is clearly nonsense and can we all stop please comparing Christianity to it).

MisterEpicurus

antiskeptic wrote: »

The video can be dismissed out of hand since your remarks enscapsulate it's position.

This is the exact response which the video is trying to explain. Thanks for immediately demonstrating why the nature of this video was required;

"If their opinions are challenged, their brains emit the same chemicals that are emitted when humans are in dangerous situations and are trying to survive. The more primitive part of the brain kicks in and intervenes with rational thinking, and the limbic system can knock out most of their working memory, physically causing "narrow-mindedness""

antiskeptic

Zombrex wrote: »

There are tons of things irrational and illogical about the Chrsitian position.

What would figure as number 1 on your list?

Ah but Zombrex, isn't that just my atheist biased opinion, isn't it I how simply cannot accept when a Christian tells me the rational reasons.

Well a little test I like to perform is whether or not the rational reasons given for Christianity would also force believe in any other religion if equally applied to that religion.

Such as?

Newsite

Zombrex wrote: »

I think he meant in a structured reasonable fashion. You can argue with a insane homeless person about the people trying to steal his thoughts, but you aren't going to get very far.



There are tons of things irrational and illogical about the Chrsitian position. Christians though have a hard time accepting this when it is put to them (possibly for reasons explained in this video).

Ah but Zombrex, isn't that just my atheist biased opinion, isn't it I how simply cannot accept when a Christian tells me the rational reasons.

Well a little test I like to perform is whether or not the rational reasons given for Christianity would also force believe in any other religion if equally applied to that religion.

All reasons I've encountered so far would, yet Christians don't accept these other religions (in fact if you want a chuckle go read Newsite's argument that Scientology is clearly nonsense and can we all stop please comparing Christianity to it).

Still flogging the clearly laughable Scientology argument I see

antiskeptic

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

This is the exact response which the video is trying to explain. Thanks for immediately demonstrating why the nature of this video was required;

"If their opinions are challenged, their brains emit the same chemicals that are emitted when humans are in dangerous situations and are trying to survive. The more primitive part of the brain kicks in and intervenes with rational thinking, and the limbic system can knock out most of their working memory, physically causing "narrow-mindedness""

Perhaps the OP could explain then how the intervention that produces rational thinking also makes it impossible to get them to think rationally. That doesn't sound all that rational tbh.

OP wrote:

are impossible to argue with and why it's impossible to get them to think rational and logical.

FootShooter

antiskeptic wrote: »

The video can be dismissed out of hand since your remarks enscapsulate it's position.

1) You can argue with religious people. Happens on boards all the time

2) There is nothing irrational or illogical about the Christian position. Don't confuse a person believing water can be turned into wine with a person thinking irrationality.

What you might have meant was that it's impossible to get them to think only materialistically and naturalistically. But since those ideas are philosophical constructs (and are belief based, much like religion) all you're really saying is that religious people aren't prepared to believe in your particular god.

Since you won't believe in theirs, you're hardly in a position to complain.

Did you even bother watching it? I quoted like one frame of the film, and you dismiss the whole movie. And what is it that can be dismissed about the movie? It's validity? Are you saying you can prove that these neuroscientists are wrong?

1) Of course you can argue with them, but you won't get anywhere. You can throw every argument that exists against there being a God or what not. They will simply go into a defensive fetal position and come up with a non-logical irrational counter response/argument.

2) Everything about Christianity and religion is all about being as non-logical and irrational as possible. Faith is defined as believing without any proof at all, irrational. Believing water can be turned in to wine because you read in it some book that's over 2000 years old, irrational.

My particular God? I don't believe there is any God at all, nor hell or heaven or any of the stuff that's in the bible. Why do you think I posted this in the atheism forum? Again you are thinking irrational and not being logical. Try to ignore those chemicals that were emitted when you read my post, and you'll see things a bit more clear.

CiaranMT

@antiskeptic,

Explain for a moment (since you mentioned it above), how believing water is turned into wine, is logical, or rational?

Or is this metaphorical?

I always get confused.

FootShooter

antiskeptic wrote: »

Perhaps the OP could explain then how the intervention that produces rational thinking also makes it impossible to get them to think rationally. That doesn't sound all that rational tbh.

It's supposed to be interferes with rational thinking. I misquoted the thing, fixed it now. So I take it you didn't watch the film then.

Sonics2k

antiskeptic wrote: »

Such as?

I'd say Jonah living inside a whale for 3 days is a pretty big one.

Surely no adult can actually believe that happened?

CiaranMT

Or the whole loaves and fishes thing...

Sonics2k

Or the coming back from the dead bit.

Or in the case of Mormons, coming back from the dead, ending up in North America and meeting the Lost Jewish Tribe.

antiskeptic

CiaranMT wrote: »

@antiskeptic,

Explain for a moment (since you mentioned it above), how believing water is turned into wine, is logical, or rational?

Or is this metaphorical?

I always get confused.

The Christian position is held irrational and illogical (water into wine being an example of that). I'd prefer that you enlighten me regarding the illogicality of this occuring. Or the irrationality of believing it occurring.

Mark200

Or Joseph being satisfied with his pregnant wife's insistence that she is still a virgin.

antiskeptic

FootShooter wrote: »

It's supposed to be interferes with rational thinking. I misquoted the thing, fixed it now. So I take it you didn't watch the film then.

Why would I - since you summed up it's conclusions. I'm more interested in whether people can support their own position than watching youtube videos they happen to post up. There's so much tripe on the internet afterall.

Christianity. Illogical / irrational. You were saying..

King Mob

antiskeptic wrote: »

The Christian position is held irrational and illogical (water into wine being an example of that). I'd prefer that you enlighten me regarding the illogicality of this occuring. Or the irrationality of believing it occurring.

What specific, verifiable, testable evidence do you have that water can be turned into wine (or any other similar magical event in the bible)?

If you do not have any of the above or cannot point to it, then the position that the water turned into wine is not based on evidence or observation, and is not rational.

Why exactly do you believe believe that this actually occurred?
If you answer is because you simply believe what is written in the bible regardless of what you can actually verify yourself, then this is faith.
Faith is belief without reasoning or evidence and often in spite of it, hence it is not logical.

This applies not only to the minor magical events, but to the core required beliefs you need to hold to be a Christian.

FootShooter

antiskeptic wrote: »

Why would I - since you summed up it's conclusions. I'm more interested in whether people can support their own position than watching youtube videos they happen to post up. There's so much tripe on the internet afterall.

Maybe because I didn't sum up it's conclusions? I summarized the 4-5 first minutes of it maybe. Skip to 22 minutes in and you'll get a nice summary of what the film is all about.

And yeah, neuroscience is tripe....

ArtSmart

I'm sure it applies to any 'locked in ' belief, be it political , religious , footie, etc.

I'm sure it had its use (two blue rocks clashed together make fire) then when things start getting a bit more complex (the last 100 year or so), well...


still, wonder will they find a drug to 'cure' it?

ArtSmart

Mark200 wrote: »

Or Joseph being satisfied with his pregnant wife's insistence that she is still a virgin.

yeah. Joeseph talked big 'round the campfire, but i'm told he cried himself to sleep...

JimiTime

heh heh. Brilliant.

antiskeptic

FootShooter wrote: »

And yeah, neuroscience is tripe....

Neuroscience is science. And not all of us genuflect before it's altar like atheists are wont.

Don't get me wrong, I value Dispirin like the next man but..

ArtSmart

JimiTime wrote: »

heh heh. Brilliant.

thank you.

JimiTime

ArtSmart wrote: »

thank you.

I meant the OP, but your post was very good too
*rubs artsmarts head condescendingly*

ArtSmart

JimiTime wrote: »

I meant the OP, but your post was very good too
*rubs artsmarts head condescendingly*

I likes a good rub now and then I does.

antiskeptic

King Mob wrote: »

What specific, verifiable, testable evidence do you have that water can be turned into wine (or any other similar magical event in the bible)?

If you do not have any of the above or cannot point to it, then the position that the water turned into wine is not based on evidence or observation, and is not rational.

Could you provide evidence for that position?

Why exactly do you believe believe that this actually occurred?
If you answer is because you simply believe what is written in the bible regardless of what you can actually verify yourself, then this is faith.
Faith is belief without reasoning or evidence and often in spite of it, hence it is not logical.

The bible has a slightly different definition of faith than yours. It says that faith is something undergirded by evidence and that the evidence is spiritually discerned. Alot of that evidence is contained in the Bible (which describes a world which, somewhat remarkably, operates precisely according to the model posed by the Bible - even thousands of years after it was written) but isn't discerned by someone like yourself (you would be what the bible calls "spiritually blind")

The question then isn't so much about whether I'm dealing with the evidence in a rational way but how it is I can show you it so that you can evaluate my assessment.

Is the problem that I'm deluded? Or is it that you're blind? Until we can answer that question then it's a bit premature of you to go flinging mud around.

CiaranMT

So the water into wine bit.. Still looking for an explanation into how a belief of its possibility is rational.

Also, watch the video, it's actually quite fascinating. Obviously, a poster like yourself will take issue with findings presented therein, but they're not actually the main bit of the video, for me anyway, but then I am a Psychology student

King Mob

antiskeptic wrote: »

Could you provide evidence for that position?

What position?
That if you don't have any evidence then a position cannot be based on any evidence?

I would have thought that was self explanatory.

antiskeptic wrote: »

The bible has a slightly different definition of faith than yours. It says that faith is something undergirded by evidence and that the evidence is spiritually discerned. Alot of that evidence is contained in the Bible (which describes a world which, somewhat remarkably, operates precisely according to the model posed by the Bible - even thousands of years after it was written) but isn't discerned by someone like yourself (you would be what the bible calls "spiritually blind")

The question then isn't so much about whether I'm dealing with the evidence in a rational way but how it is I can show you it so that you can evaluate my assessment.

Ah sorry my bad I was using the actual definition of the words, not double speak bible ones.
If evidence cannot be verified independently, it's useless and indistinguishable for fiction and delusion.

I was referring to actual evidence, which you clearly have none, hence why you have to invent a special kind of evidence that I can only see if I accept as true without and before verification.
This is not rational or logical.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Is the problem that I'm deluded? Or is it that you're blind? Until we can answer that question then it's a bit premature of you to go flinging mud around.

Well the thing is, there a lot more religions out there which you'd agree that are based on scams and delusions.
I see no reason to distinguish your flavour from theirs.
So do you have any particular way of knowing that these ones are all wrong while your are right, without first needing to accept that premise beforehand?

ArtSmart

CiaranMT wrote: »

So the water into wine bit.. Still looking for an explanation into how a belief of its possibility is rational.

dude, you never being to a wine bar in Cavan?

wonderfulname

antiskeptic wrote: »

Could you provide evidence for that position?

Water - H2O

Fermentation as seen in wine - C6H12O6 _ 2 C2H5OH + 2 CO

Other "evidence" includes the fact that water is not grape juice and fermentation cannot happen instantaneously, and of course that magic doesn't exist.

It is not remotely possible, I can't believe adults believe this crap, or that I just answered that.

By the way this is a wonderfully ironic thread...