2012 BVD voluntary programme - will you be participating?

just do it

As the title says, will you be participating?

dar31

funny that.
just made the decision, yesterday, to do it this spring.

whelan1

why wouldn't you do it?

1chippy

why wouldnt you join ? first being if you have a pi animal you kill it at your loss. i know its for the greater good, but realistically whos? The following year its to become mandatory i know but with all the farmers who will have to just put down animals many which will appear perfectly normal are not going to accept that loss easily. thus in my reckoning the following year there will have to be some sort of reimbursement for all these animals as there will be an outcry over three years of what people see as a mass cull.
where did all this bvd come from anyway?

redzerologhlen

Europe, I belive it came with a big boat of money at the start of the celtic tiger:D Seriously though I think it came in with imported cattle from the continent 20+ years ago, I think I read that somewhere before anyway.

theMountain

excuse my lack of knowledge on the BVD scheme but how do you go about joining ?

Bizzum

theMountain wrote: »

excuse my lack of knowledge on the BVD scheme but how do you go about joining ?

I wonder are details of the scheme available, and could they be linked to this thread?
If only I was a whizz kid:)

pakalasa

The links are here
http://www.animalhealthireland.ie/bvd.php

Bizzum

pakalasa wrote: »

The links are here
http://www.animalhealthireland.ie/bvd.php

Thank you kind sir:)
You're always a great man for the important link!

rancher

1chippy wrote: »

why wouldnt you join ? first being if you have a pi animal you kill it at your loss. i know its for the greater good, but realistically whos? The following year its to become mandatory i know but with all the farmers who will have to just put down animals many which will appear perfectly normal are not going to accept that loss easily. thus in my reckoning the following year there will have to be some sort of reimbursement for all these animals as there will be an outcry over three years of what people see as a mass cull.
where did all this bvd come from anyway?

Testing is going on a while now, Is there anything to stop the PI's going to the marts even next year

greysides

rancher wrote: »

Testing is going on a while now, Is there anything to stop the PI's going to the marts even next year

The result will be on record. You (in the general usage) could be held civilly and criminally liable for your actions. Marts are to be linked to the database too so it may eventually show up on the selling screen. Farmers with PIs will getting a phone call from their DVO too.

Positive results need to be confirmed before culling the animal and their dams need to checked out too.

Tag soon after birth to avoid complications from Transient Infections (T.I.s), which need to be differentiated from the genuine PIs.

70% of PIs never see their first birthday, 80% never see their second. Keeping a PI is like harbouring a sabateur/traitor. They are undoing all your good efforts at animal health. They are not keep-sakes.

Expected levels are 0.75% of the National Herd, so not too high. Some farms will have none, some will have several. Those that have to cull several have the most to gain from doing so because they are currently losing the most from it. Those that have none will be paying out with no immediate health benefit- but may get a bit extra when declaring calves being sold to be BVD free.

IMO, given the costings, you'd have to be mad (or have done a very good risk analysis) to be a diary farmer and not go for it.

LostCovey

redzerologhlen wrote: »

Europe, I belive it came with a big boat of money at the start of the celtic tiger:D Seriously though I think it came in with imported cattle from the continent 20+ years ago, I think I read that somewhere before anyway.

I think BVD has been here as long as we have had cattle on rhe island. Whats new is not the disease or the damage it does.

What's new is

- awareness of it
- accurate fast cheap tests
- Animal Health Ireland
- a collective will to do something about it
- the example of other countries that got rid of it.

LC

LostCovey

1chippy wrote: »

thus in my reckoning the following year there will have to be some sort of reimbursement for all these animals as there will be an outcry

Who will buy your BVD PIs off you? The taxpayer that can't afford to keep A&E units open? This scheme will identify dud/timebomb units in your production system.

Why should we be compensated for dumping these ?

rancher

greysides wrote: »

The result will be on record. You (in the general usage) could be held civilly and criminally liable for your actions. Marts are to be linked to the database too so it may eventually show up on the selling screen. Farmers with PIs will getting a phone call from their DVO too.

Positive results need to be confirmed before culling the animal and their dams need to checked out too.

Tag soon after birth to avoid complications from Transient Infections (T.I.s), which need to be differentiated from the genuine PIs.

70% of PIs never see their first birthday, 80% never see their second. Keeping a PI is like harbouring a sabateur/traitor. They are undoing all your good efforts at animal health. They are not keep-sakes.

Expected levels are 0.75% of the National Herd, so not too high. Some farms will have none, some will have several. Those that have to cull several have the most to gain from doing so because they are currently losing the most from it. Those that have none will be paying out with no immediate health benefit- but may get a bit extra when declaring calves being sold to be BVD free.

IMO, given the costings, you'd have to be mad (or have done a very good risk analysis) to be a diary farmer and not go for it.

But are all those safeguards in place yet???? I don't think so

manjou

Have not decided yet.The problem i have with test is it cant tell the difference with a pi calf and one that came in contact with one as far as i can know.So as a suckler farmer with calves arriving close together would i have to get blood tests to find pi if a few calves came back positive.Been vacinating a few years now so would antibodies be in calf from cow.Cant afford mistake from test as calf is where my profit is.Also have none of symptoms in herd so far.

pakalasa

I tested (BVD Enfer) all my herd last spring and vacinated.
When I sold weanlings this year, I was asked why did I test and did they have it. Not the reaction I was expecting. You tested so you must have thought you had it,.....kind of thing.

blue5000

+1
except for the last sentence, had a lot of empty cows last yr, so I think I'l go with the test and try pull out any pi's, I don't know either if the test can distinguish between a pi calf and one that has been exposed. Can anyone on here clarify this?

manjou wrote: »

Have not decided yet.The problem i have with test is it cant tell the difference with a pi calf and one that came in contact with one as far as i can know.So as a suckler farmer with calves arriving close together would i have to get blood tests to find pi if a few calves came back positive.Been vacinating a few years now so would antibodies be in calf from cow.Cant afford mistake from test as calf is where my profit is.Also have none of symptoms in herd so far.

LivInt20

1chippy wrote: »

why wouldnt you join ? first being if you have a pi animal you kill it at your loss. i know its for the greater good, but realistically whos? The following year its to become mandatory i know but with all the farmers who will have to just put down animals many which will appear perfectly normal are not going to accept that loss easily. thus in my reckoning the following year there will have to be some sort of reimbursement for all these animals as there will be an outcry over three years of what people see as a mass cull.
where did all this bvd come from anyway?

You are very un informed about this issue.

YOU will gain the biggest financially by getting rid of a PI.

Other farmers will gain by you not having a PI and infecting another mans herd where he buys you stock.

Please do some research on this issue at least for the welfare of other farmers if not yourself.

LivInt20

blue5000 wrote: »

+1
except for the last sentence, had a lot of empty cows last yr, so I think I'l go with the test and try pull out any pi's, I don't know either if the test can distinguish between a pi calf and one that has been exposed. Can anyone on here clarify this?

If calf tests positive you can take it that it is PI.

That is why it is important to test the calf soon after it is born, in order to eliminate the possibility that the calf picked it up somewhere else.

mattthetrasher

enfer test can distinguish as far as i recall i screened all females in herd over the past 3 years and will screen them again next year rather than do the whole lot the new bvd erad scheme is half arsed imo they should have an all round compulsory test with compulsory compensated slaughter of any calf showing as a pi we will never be rid of bvd with current scheme but it does give labs a handy 12 million/year with no end in sight

just do it

manjou wrote: »

The problem i have with test is it cant tell the difference with a pi calf and one that came in contact with one as far as i can know.

blue5000 wrote: »

I don't know either if the test can distinguish between a pi calf and one that has been exposed. Can anyone on here clarify this?

This is a very important point about PIs. A PI animal is persistently infected with the virus but doesn't recognise it as foreign and therefore doesn't mount an immune response and produce antibodies against it. So a PI animal is virus +ve and antibody -ve. Animals are born as PIs, they can't become PI subsequently.

Where BVD is in a herd most the animals will be have been exposed to the virus and will have mounted an immune response, i.e. they'll be antibody positive. These animals may get sick, not go in-calf etc, but they won't act as a long term BVD resevoir.

So the test picks out the ones that are virus +ve, antibody -ve. It distinguishes between those that have been in contact but aren't PIs (antibody +ve).

LostCovey

just do it wrote: »

This is a very important point about PIs. A PI animal is persistently infected with the virus but doesn't recognise it as foreign and therefore doesn't mount an immune response and produce antibodies against it. So a PI animal is virus +ve and antibody -ve. Animals are born as PIs, they can't become PI subsequently.

Where BVD is in a herd most the animals will be have been exposed to the virus and will have mounted an immune response, i.e. they'll be antibody positive. These animals may get sick, not go in-calf etc, but they won't act as a long term BVD resevoir.

So the test picks out the ones that are virus +ve, antibody -ve. It distinguishes between those that have been in contact but aren't PIs (antibody +ve).

I mostly agree with this but not fully.

If a animal picks up a transient infection, they will (briefly) be virus +ve, antibody -ve. They will go on to become virus -ve, antibody +ve.

However, I do not think anyone would kill a calf on a single test for this reason.

A second test a week or two later (with the suspect isolated from pregnant animals) will check that the calf is still virus +ve, antibody -ve.

In all cases above, only a blood test will tell you anything about antibody status - the ear punch sample will only test for virus.

LC

pakalasa

That's an important point. A positive does not indicate that the animal is a PI. It might only be 'a tansient infection'. A second test, at a later stage is required to verify that it is a PI.

5live

And if a calf shows up as a PI, you are recommended to test any remaining calves from the PIs dam in your herd as these too could be PIs

greysides

rancher wrote: »

But are all those safeguards in place yet???? I don't think so

I do share your concern. The handling of PIs is going to decide the success or failure of this scheme.

Those were the 'safeguards' given at a meeting in Wexford recently. The civil and criminal liability is existing law. The phone call from the DVO is organised, I believe. The marts................. whenever it happens.

The program is not leak-proof yet, relying on the more progressive and better informed people who know most about it to use their understanding to do the right thing. Next year, when it's compulsary we can expect a much more water-tight situation. All the proponents have too much to lose to allow it not to succeed.

At the end of the day, and lets be honest, it's not like we're blazing a trail for other countries to follow. We've no choice but to man up to our endemic diseases or we won't have markets.
A question was asked at the Wexford meeting about us having to allow in imported cattle from countries where BVD is endemic once we are free of it. It was stated that we wouldn't allow it, only cattle from free countries would be allowed in.

Well, turn that on its head...............if we're not free, other countries won't buy from us!
This current program is notus setting an example for other countries to follow, it's us being led by the nose!
We have to do this, no choice.

Other disease programs will follow, we will be forced to tag along with the better countries.

Now, compensation. We're used to compensation for government directed zoonotic diseases...........TB, Brucellosis, BSE, Scrapie. It's become a cultural thing.

These are diseases that are already covered with a lot of trade restrictions that we've controlled or we can export despite them due to our on-going National campaigns.
They are diseases primarily controlled for the betterment of human health but that were then used as political tools to allow/deny us access to the markets. Think Foot and Mouth Disease and South American beef.

BVD and IBR are animal diseases alone and the main beneficaries of eradication will be the industry itself. Why should the industry expect compensation for doing something that improves its own lot?

Those that lose the most animals the first year are those that will see the greatest benefit the next year.

Many people will be stumping up for tags, have no PIs identified, and be no better off the next year; maybe they should be compensated for having NO PIs?

The farming sector I has most sympathy for is the suckler farmer who sells weanlings. He has most to lose by having PIs.
IMO, ALL compensation should be directed to these people...........if there were any to be had.

Why not put a levy of €1 on each tag bought. At approximately one PI per hundred animals tested, there would be a fund of €100 to give out for each PI identified. Not enough to compensate a suckler farmer for the loss of the production of one cow for a year but SOMETHING to be had for doing the right thing and biting the bullet, especially if disposal could be arranged to be free.

greysides

mattthetrasher wrote: »

enfer test can distinguish as far as i recall i screened all females in herd over the past 3 years and will screen them again next year rather than do the whole lot the new bvd erad scheme is half arsed imo they should have an all round compulsory test with compulsory compensated slaughter of any calf showing as a pi we will never be rid of bvd with current scheme but it does give labs a handy 12 million/year with no end in sight

I don't think anyone has the stomach for a protracted eradication campaign. The science is right. It has been put together by experts, giving their own time for free, is based on current eradication campaigns running in other countries and has been peer-reviewed by a recognised world expert on BVD.
No problems with the science.

Run correctly the scheme should do the job in a reasonable time frame.

The politics...............always a problem in Ireland.

ddogsbollix

whats the story if you sell a P.I animal in the mart and someone buys him and then he tests the animal and he comes up P.I is the farmer that sold the calve in trouble??

greysides

ddogsbollix wrote: »

whats the story if you sell a P.I animal in the mart and someone buys him and then he tests the animal and he comes up P.I is the farmer that sold the calve in trouble??

Can't remember the exact legislation but there appears to be ways to bring civil and criminal prosecution under existing legislation.

Given the year that's in it there would be good cause to be careful. All results will be linked into the ICBF database so that may be a way to check.

Isolation and privately testing bought in calves would be a good idea, if it could be done. Even if you get stuck with a PI at least it would be identified before much damage is done.

Under next years compulsary scheme the loop holes should be tightened up and a bigger stick wielded. Ultimately, all calves/animals being sold will have to be accompanied by a declaration of their virus-free status. Whether compulsary or not, if it becomes standard practice then everybody will have to comply.

If you are wondering why there may be loop holes for the first year, remember that the first year is a trial year, a shakedown of the program and a chance to iron out the creases.

Also remember, that a camel is a horse designed by committee.

oooge1

hey guys...can i ask.. if you are already vacinating for bvd, will this have any effect on the result of the ear notch test??

just do it

LostCovey wrote: »

I mostly agree with this but not fully.

If a animal picks up a transient infection, they will (briefly) be virus +ve, antibody -ve. They will go on to become virus -ve, antibody +ve.

However, I do not think anyone would kill a calf on a single test for this reason.

A second test a week or two later (with the suspect isolated from pregnant animals) will check that the calf is still virus +ve, antibody -ve.

In all cases above, only a blood test will tell you anything about antibody status - the ear punch sample will only test for virus.

LC

Agree.

Taking the ear tissue sample as soon after calving as possible reduces the likelyhood of the calf being virus +ve due to a transient infection.

However the initial test acts as a screening test. Positives will result in follow-up for definitive diagnosis of PIs.

In answering the query that was raised, the important point is the programme is set up to distinguish between the PI and calves that have been exposed to BVD, possibly are or have been sick due to BVD, but are not PIs.

1chippy

im looking at this from a personal point of view. have a suckler herd and trying to expand. Every pennies a prisoner from here on in and i cant afford to just loose a calf or cow or multiple. i know its morally wrong to sell on and legally, and as we seem to have a very healthy and thriving herd i wont be taking the risk next year. ive heard all the pros and cons and im going to sit it out and hope it works out fine. No signs currently, i know it would be piece of mind to know they were all clear but i'll hopefully be able to delay that little bit of extra pressure (if i have any) for another year
now i'll lye back and take the head shots.:p

greysides

oooge1 wrote: »

hey guys...can i ask.. if you are already vacinating for bvd, will this have any effect on the result of the ear notch test??

No, except that you should have less of a chance of having PIs.

There's some confusion over BVD tests.


There's three things that can be tested for in relation to BVD. Antibodies, Antigen and DNA.

Antibodies are the natural weapons produced in the body in response to an infection. They are specific to the infection they are produced in response to. IBR virus stimulates cells to produce IBR antibodies that will only attack IBR viruses. Similarly BVD antibodies are produced in response to contact with BVD virus.

Antigen is the part of the virus that stimulates the production of the antibodies. The antibodies produced attach to it. It's like the number plate of a car. Essentially for understanding testing results you can consider it as virus.

DNA is the genetic material in the virus. It contains the codes for reproduction. It is specific to its source. BVD DNA only comes from BVD virus.


There's five tests in common usage.

Bulk Milk Tank PCR test: This test looks for the DNA of the virus. If the DNA is present, the virus is present. This is the test Glanbia are using for their bulk milk screening. A positive result means virus is circulating, either from the presence of a PI cow or transient infection doing the rounds.

Tissue Tag PCR test: The test of the program, looks for BVD DNA in the ear tissue. If it's present then the virus is present. Antibody presence has no bearing on it so the mothers having been vaccinated, or not, is irrelevant to its results.


Blood PCR test: This test looks for BVD viral DNA in blood. If the DNA is present, the virus is present. The more modern lab test for the presence of virus in blood.

Blood Antigen ELISA test: Blood test looking for a part of the virus, and only that virus. If positive, the virus is present. Used by the State labs to diagnose BVD carriers in conjunction with the next test, prior to the availability of the PCR test.

Blood Antibody ELISA test: Blood test looking for antibody produced a a souvenir of a BVD infection. The presence of antibody indicates a previous exposure to the virus. It says nothing about virus being present or not, just antibody. A milk version of this was the previous test Glanbia used in its bulk screening.


When talking about BVD testing, make sure everyone is on the same page as to what test is being discussed, it should help clear up some confusion.

greysides

1chippy wrote: »

im looking at this from a personal point of view. have a suckler herd and trying to expand. Every pennies a prisoner from here on in and i cant afford to just loose a calf or cow or multiple. i know its morally wrong to sell on and legally, and as we seem to have a very healthy and thriving herd i wont be taking the risk next year. ive heard all the pros and cons and im going to sit it out and hope it works out fine. No signs currently, i know it would be piece of mind to know they were all clear but i'll hopefully be able to delay that little bit of extra pressure (if i have any) for another year
now i'll lye back and take the head shots.:p

I can't blame you. You've done a risk analysis of sorts and come to a reasonable conclusion. That conclusion might be different if you were having fertility or scour problems.

Not for Chippy specifically.....

Hypothetically, would you rather you rather put down one calf shortly after birth or lose that calf and two others to disease before weaning?

plus cull two cows for not going in-calf quickly enough?

Remember that calf with the bent legs last year that didn't do?

The calf born with no tail? The calf that looked perfectly normal but couldn't stand from two years back?

The year of the calf scours that couldn't be cured, kept recurring, antibiotics- even expensive ones didn't work, fine while on fluids, scouring again once off them, lost two, others took forever to thrive but eventually picked up, worst batch of calves ever. Don't know why. Never want a year like that again, seems to be gone, haven't had it back since.:)

funny man

I am dissapointed to hear other farmers looking for compensation for the removal of a PI, this is something that will improve the health of their own herd first and stop the spread to other herds. All i will say is the quicker they make it compulsory the better.

mattthetrasher

funny man wrote: »

I am dissapointed to hear other farmers looking for compensation for the removal of a PI, this is something that will improve the health of their own herd first and stop the spread to other herds. All i will say is the quicker they make it compulsory the better.

the reality of the situation is a guy hard pressed with a champ of cow that has a pi calf needs compensation i am a dairy farmer and to be honest i dont think its as important for to get comp for our calves because we still have the revenue from milk but to for the suckler guy ithink there should be something

funny man

mattthetrasher wrote: »

the reality of the situation is a guy hard pressed with a champ of cow that has a pi calf needs compensation i am a dairy farmer and to be honest i dont think its as important for to get comp for our calves because we still have the revenue from milk but to for the suckler guy ithink there should be something

Sorry matt but i don't agree if you are producing an animal that is persistently Infected, This animal will cost a herd owner if kept (which has been rightly highlighted already), they will infect more animals in the herd and while these animals are not PI they also shed the virus for a short period, these animals are a menace to the national herd.

1chippy

funny man wrote: »

I am dissapointed to hear other farmers looking for compensation for the removal of a PI, this is something that will improve the health of their own herd first and stop the spread to other herds. All i will say is the quicker they make it compulsory the better.

Im constantly trying to improve the herd and will do so but i also have to run this from a business point of view and for now, i dont have to join and if i dont make the most of that. im not running the farm right, every issue has to be looked at from a multitude of angles and this is what suits me right now, id love to be sure all animals were bvd free however i'm currently not going to run that risk while the dep of ag use the first group as guinea pigs.

funny man

1chippy wrote: »

Im constantly trying to improve the herd and will do so but i also have to run this from a business point of view and for now, i dont have to join and if i dont make the most of that. im not running the farm right, every issue has to be looked at from a multitude of angles and this is what suits me right now, id love to be sure all animals were bvd free however i'm currently not going to run that risk while the dep of ag use the first group as guinea pigs.

I've read your post several times don't understand ;

if i dont make the most of that.
im not running the farm right, every issue has to be looked at from a multitude of angles and this is what suits me right now,

I never said that people should do it next year, but i will and i'm glad it will be compulsory in 2013 and every herd will have to test for three years, this is an AHI initative not a Dept of ag, me thinks.

greysides

1chippy wrote: »

Im constantly trying to improve the herd and will do so but i also have to run this from a business point of view and for now, i dont have to join and if i dont make the most of that. im not running the farm right, every issue has to be looked at from a multitude of angles and this is what suits me right now, id love to be sure all animals were bvd free however i'm currently not going to run that risk while the dep of ag use the first group as guinea pigs.

funny man wrote: »

I've read your post several times don't understand

I'll give it a whack.........apologies if I get the meaning wrong... I believe this is the geist of what's being said:

I'm constantly trying to improve my herd and will do so but I also have to run this from a business point of view.

If I dont take advantage of not having to join right now then I'm not running the farm right.

Every issue has to be looked at from a multitude of angles and not signing up is what suits me best right now.

I'd love all my animals to be BVD free however I'm currently not going to take the risk of them not being BVD free or allowing the Dept of Ag to use the first group as guinea pigs.

The first is a dry run of the logistics of the program. The science is solid, guinea pigs have already been sacrificed.:D

greysides

mattthetrasher wrote: »

the reality of the situation is a guy hard pressed with a champ of cow that has a pi calf needs compensation.

No, he doesn't. That's still thinking along the lines that this calf has some value. It hasn't. For the reasons already outlined.

Another way to look at it: Had he dealt with his BVD problem a year earlier, it's more than likely his champ cow would not be throwing out a PI calf this year.

The people who have the most to lose are the people who have the most to gain.

If someone is producing valuable calves, maybe pedigree, then it's up to them to protect their calves from disease. This is one such disease.

Except it has a huge ability to be self-propagating when not tackled. There has to be a fire-break at some point and this is it.

i am a dairy farmer and to be honest i dont think its as important for to get comp for our calves because we still have the revenue from milk but to for the suckler guy ithink there should be something

Agree with you here- if there's something available to be given.
However, don't forget, on average the rate of PIs is less than one per hundred.

just do it

greysides wrote: »

The first is a dry run of the logistics of the program. The science is solid, guinea pigs have already been sacrificed.:D

This is an important point. BVD programmes have been sucessfully run in coutries like Switzerland and Austria. We're just piggy backing on the experience out there rather than being guinea pigs.;)

just do it

Surely the only compensation needed is picking out the ticking time bomb that is the PI?

If the PI is sick it is non-thriving anyway.

If the PI is not sick it is likely to get sick and die before it is 2-3 yo. It is also potentially shedding virus and making other animals sick or thrive less than they should.

In the case of the PI and BVD the image of the iceberg comes to mind. Finding the PI indicates there is a very large iceberg hidden beneath the water. By elimating the PI from the herd you are helping to avoid the iceberg.

What to do with the PI?
There is nothing to stop the PI from being isolated and fattened for early slaughter. It's cow also needs to be singled out testing and for culling. Although if a PI is diagnosed it's time to get on the phone to your vet!

LostCovey

just do it wrote: »

What to do with the PI?
There is nothing to stop the PI from being isolated and fattened for early slaughter. It's cow also needs to be singled out testing and for culling. Although if a PI is diagnosed it's time to get on the phone to your vet!

This would be fine in theory.

However in practice....not so simple.

The PI is discharging enormous amounts of virus in every fluid from saliva to tears to urine.

Unless you are going to have a full set of equipment and clothing, dedicated to the PI isolation unit, and shower on your way out, you will carry virus out to a pregnant animal and set the whole thing off again.

This is a very successful virus - it has infected about 70 or 80% of the cattle in the country. Isolating PIs won't work, and now that I think about it, fattening them is itself a challenge.

You will also spend a crazy amount on bits & pieces of pneumonias, infections etc.

I would be a strong supporter of the death penalty for PIs!!

LC

1chippy

at a teagasc meeting there was a discussion on was it viable to fatten pis to a valuable level.
We were told one of the farmers on the better farms programme had 10 or 11 pis (cant remeber which exactly). we were told it would be uneconomical as the conversion rate of the animals gets far too expensive at a set stage within the animals growth to cover the costs of finishing.
He had to isolate the animals and even the slurry off these animals which we were told could transmit the disease.

greysides

LostCovey wrote: »

This is a very successful virus - it has infected about 70 or 80% of the cattle in the country.

You're spot on. Completely widespread through the country, at high levels within each farm, causing huge estimated losses every year directly and indirectly.................... and we're still arguing the toss over whether we should do something about it.

Aren't we lucky its not viewed the same way as FMD in regard to export of meat and animals.................YET....................?

milkprofit

Invest in your Herd SHOOT the PI
This investment will give the best return

kennedy138

if you have to particiapate next year you might as well bite the bullet and do it now

just do it

just do it wrote: »

What to do with the PI?
There is nothing to stop the PI from being isolated and fattened for early slaughter. It's cow also needs to be singled out testing and for culling. Although if a PI is diagnosed it's time to get on the phone to your vet!

You cant beat a good debate! I agree with what lads are saying that the best thing is the early culling of the PI. But really the above statement is for those PI calves that appear normal and is really geared at those lads not joining in the scheme. So the argument put forward for not joining the scheme is an economic one, no compo for the PI therefore I don't want it diagnosed and lose the value of a weanling. But...

Extract from the AHI website:

Persistently infected calves can present with a wide range of clinical signs. Some will be stillborn or die within a few days of birth.Most will survive but have poor growth rates and may be prone to recurrent secondary disease (Munoz-Zanzi 2003). A certain number of PI calves will be entirely normal at birth, have no signs of disease and be able to reproduce normally (McClurkin 1984).

Scenario 1 - minority will be stillborn or die within a few days of birth.
Scenario 2 - majority will survive and have poor growth rates +/- secondary infections
Scenario 3 - minority will appear normal with normal growth rates.

So what's the difference between being in the scheme and being outside the scheme?

Scenario 1
- you lose either way, but at least if you've submitted a tissue sample you know that BVD has caused the loss and now you'll also test the cow and possibly find out she's a PI as well.

Scenario 2
- If you're not in the scheme you will keep feeding and treating the calf in the vain hope that it will some day become an animal worth something.
- If you're in the scheme you'll have either culled the calf once diagnosed or will cull it once you realise it's showing signs of ill-thrift or secondary infections. Again you'll investigate if the cow is a PI as well.

Scenario 3
- This is the only scenario where the economic arguement for not being in the scheme may have some justification.
- If you're not in the scheme you will not realise you've this PI on the farm. You'll sell it and cause problems for who ever buys it. If you keep it other animals will get transient infections which result in production losses. Worst of all if it becomes an asymptomatic cow in your herd she'll produce PI calves and act as a constant source of virus leading to waxing and waning production losses.
- If you're in the scheme and now you isolate your PI calf and cow and the calf continues to thrive you could slaughter it at 12-15 months of age and get some return on it. It could develop Mucosal disease from this age on so it's not worth bringing it any further.
- But what about the possibility of the farmer transferring the virus to other animals? I'd guess if you always check on this animal after the others, house seperately in winter, good basic hygiene, wear gloves etc you'll be alright. If it was that easy for people to carry the virus wouldn't every farmer that ever went to the mart have it?

To conclude
So really I can't see any justification for not wanting to diagnose and eliminate PIs from your herd. The economic argument put forward against it just doesn't seem to stack up and only comes into play in scenario 3. If the only reason for not going into the scheme is monetary or lack of compo, then and only then, does isolation, fattening and early slaughter become an option worth exploring. Just for the record I'll be culling any PI diagnosed on my farm asap!

just do it

LostCovey wrote: »

This would be fine in theory.

However in practice....not so simple.

The PI is discharging enormous amounts of virus in every fluid from saliva to tears to urine.

Unless you are going to have a full set of equipment and clothing, dedicated to the PI isolation unit, and shower on your way out, you will carry virus out to a pregnant animal and set the whole thing off again.

This is a very successful virus - it has infected about 70 or 80% of the cattle in the country. Isolating PIs won't work, and now that I think about it, fattening them is itself a challenge.

You will also spend a crazy amount on bits & pieces of pneumonias, infections etc.

I would be a strong supporter of the death penalty for PIs!!

LC

I agree that culling PIs asap is the thing to do, but just suppose a lad decides to isolate, fatten and early slaughter I think the following from AHI backs up my contention that the careful farmer won't act as a vector.

Animal Health Ireland wrote:

BIOSECURITY RISK - Direct contact with contaminated equipment from other farms (e.g. trailers, nose tongs)
LEVEL OF RISK - MODERATE
BIOSECURITY MEASURES -
1. Do not share any veterinary / animal equipment with other farms
2. Clean and disinfect all shared equipment before and after each use

BIOSECURITY RISK - Visitors
LEVEL OF RISK - MODERATE
BIOSECURITY MEASURES - Ensure any visitor to the herd is wearing clean outer clothing that is disinfected before contact with stock. All equipment used must be clean. Needles for injection of cattle should be new, sterile and used once only

You have to consider if your isolation area is adequate enough to consider it as a seperate unit or farm and then you must consider yourself as a visitor. I believe that if you are careful enough there is a low probability that you will act as a vector between the isolation unit with your PI and your main herd. It is really only when you're handling the PI that extreme extra vigiliance is required. As I'm only suggesting this as an option where the animal remains asymptomatic and thriving I believe it is feasible. Potentially the only time of contact is at the annual test and injecting with ivomec.

greysides

I don't think it's realisticly practicable or practical to securely isolate a PI satisfactorily on a working farm. JMO.

Animals break in/out. Other animals move around between groups of animals- dogs, cats. Other people with less understanding work/live on the farm. Faeces/urine needs to be dealt with. Common airspace. Etc.

funny man

The AHI information on bio-security is been used out of context, i understand where your coming from and i admit i'm no expert on bvd but i think the AHI advice is for the prevention of the virus entering your farm. If a PI is on your farm and you intend to isolate this animal there are so many issues to contend with that i believe there can be no justifcation in keeping an animal (in most cases just one) for 18-24 months in a separate shed away from all other animals. it's just not worth the risk.