SU occupation of FG TD's office

Seren_

All over Twitter and FB. Gary Redmond is there too apparently :rolleyes:

I hope they don't only occupy just his office; there are two parties in government after all.

DB21

Damn, I think you beat me by about a minute. I'll C&P the links from my thread now.

DB21

Here we go:

Members of the MSU Exec have occupied Anthony Lawlor's office in Naas in a stepped-up effort to stop fees and save the grant. Events can be followed on the following twitter links:

https://twitter.com/#!/naoiseoc
https://twitter.com/#!/KeithBroni
https://twitter.com/#!/RuaidhriBoland
https://twitter.com/#!/stobserver
https://twitter.com/#!/daveryanIV

Student Observer Live Blog:
http://stobserver.wordpress.com/2011/12/02/live-blog-maynooth-students-union-occupying-anthony-lawlors-contituency-office/

TheJournal.ie article:
http://www.thejournal.ie/maynooth-students-occupy-fine-gael-tds-office-in-fees-protest-294867-Dec2011/

It's great that there is a follow up to the protest. I'm still a bit unsure on occupations though :-/

*UPDATE*: They've passed the 24 hour mark now. Fair play to them. Anyway, Student Observer's Live Blog, Day 2:
http://stobserver.wordpress.com/2011/12/03/msu-occupy-anthony-lawlors-constituency-office-day-two-liveblog/

And some RTE coverage (at last):
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1203/education.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

BreakingNews.ie/Irish Examiner:
http://budget.breakingnews.ie/news/we-have-wood-nails-food-toilet-chimney-protesting-students-occupy-tds-office-530750.html#idc-cover

DB21

According to posts Facebook, the Gardaí have arrived

Seren_

I wonder will they have the pepper spray out.

Kiwi_knock

They are getting a bot of media coverage as well so that is good. I know Lawlor is the local T.D. but really they should be targeting more high profile T.D.s and Ministers.

Fair play to them though, good to see the S.U. take action.

DB21

It seems they'll have quite a task getting the occupiers out. They just put the shutters down. Rob's talking to the Gardaí on the phone.

Kiwi_knock

On the phone? Sounds like a hostage situation going on in there.

dillo2k10

Rob is also answering the phones and taking messages for Lawlor

Duddy

Had.To.Be.Done.

Jimmy Iovine

How did they manage to get in there without anyone stopping them? Is there someone on the the inside helping them ha

Also can your boy Lawlor not just use the key to open the door and kick them out?

Duddy

they have those automatic shutter yokies i think.

and a chemical toilet!!

DB21

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

How did they manage to get in there without anyone stopping them? Is there someone on the the inside helping them ha

Also can your boy Lawlor not just use the key to open the door and kick them out?

From what I gathered, they entered peacefully and let the staff leave at the end of the day.

byhookorbycrook

pffff. Did it in the 80s, nothing to clear an occupied office out like the the threat of an arrest and no US visa as a result.

DB21

FEE Maynooth have issued a message of support for the occupation:

Currently, officers and members of Maynooth Students’ Union are engaged in a peaceful occupation of the constituency office of Fine Gael TD Anthony Lawlor in Naas, Co. Kildare. The Free Education for Everyone (FEE) branch of NUI Maynooth would like to extend their support for this action. This is a direct message to the senior partner in government that students are not willing to see their education threatened due to the failed policies of this and previous governments. FEE has always maintained that direct action is an essential element of building and continuing a campaign to have any chance of achieving victory in the fight against fees.

This action comes at the end of a week that has seen the USI partake in an occupation on Tuesday. The FEE Galway branch also occupied a Fine Gael TD’s constituency office on Wednesday. FEE Maynooth believes that in order to beat fees, huge numbers of students at a grassroots level have to be engaged with organising and protesting in similar actions. This last week has shown that there is a hunger among students to go beyond lobbying and marching as a means of protest, these have been proven to be unsuccessful in the fight against fees.

FEE Maynooth wish to extend their support to MSU and hope that they have the opportunity to work together in future as the campaign continues. Let this be the beginning.

FEE Maynooth

dillo2k10

DB21 wrote: »

FEE Maynooth have issued a message of support for the occupation:

Do they actually do anything?

They just seem to jump in with stuff that everyone else is doing.

Dr. Nguyen Van Falk

dillo2k10 wrote: »

Do they actually do anything?

They just seem to jump in with stuff that everyone else is doing.

well yes they do, just the other day they occupied Brian Walsh office in Galway.

DB21

USI put a short message up on facebook:

Solidarity with the members of Maynooth SU occupying the office of FG TD Anthony Lawlor's office in Naas tonight.

And with that, I'm hitting the hay. I'll keep an eye on the feeds tomorrow and try to keep the topic updated.

philologos

I don't know how sustainable free fees are anymore given the economic climate.

Having heard the situation my colleagues are in after finishing university, yes they have a lot to repay, but at the same time it isn't that unfair. What happens is that their repayments are automatically deducted from their pay after reaching a certain threshold in salary. If they don't reach that threshold or fall below it at any time, they don't have to pay it until they exceed that threshold again.

I don't see what is so wrong with the student loan scheme as an idea. It also means that society as a whole needn't bear a huge burden for ensuring that people go to university. I don't see what is so wrong with giving back for the privilege of going to university.

I don't know what the percentage is here, but only 8% of the UK population graduate with a degree. Why would it be fair for the other 92% to subsidise university education for the other 8%?

In some ways the free-fees scheme was a pretty good idea while Ireland was a prosperous country, but now it is probably time to give it a rethink. In other ways it has produced a work environment where everyone expects a degree. This isn't how it is here in Britain. There are other pathways into work other than pursuing a degree. It is true that certain careers such as entry into the financial services business, computing and others can be facilitated by a degree, but a degree isn't the only way in.

In cases of public sector positions courses are supported by the State. For example courses to do with hospitals are often funded by the NHS. I think that's fair because those people will be working for the State into the considerable future.

I know this is going to be an unpopular post, but I thought it was worth posting. The assumption that the State should be paying for peoples university education when the Irish state currently has debt of €330,000 approx for every man, woman and child seems absurd to me.

DB21

The problem comes though when a government, and it's predecessor, are signing off €700m cheques to banks that should have failed while the raw cost of the grants is €480m, and propping up their cronies instead of even considering the damage they could do to the future, and the so called "smart economy" by introducing fees. The Government has ruled out a graduate tax, and the likelihood of banks giving out loans, never mind loans that may not be paid back, is ridiculously low.

philologos

DB21 wrote: »

The problem comes though when a government, and it's predecessor, are signing off €700m cheques to banks that should have failed while the raw cost of the grants is €480m, and propping up their cronies instead of even considering the damage they could do to the future, and the so called "smart economy" by introducing fees. The Government has ruled out a graduate tax, and the likelihood of banks giving out loans, never mind loans that may not be paid back, is ridiculously low.

The Government have lacked foresight in that they are unwilling to bring in a student loan system. I think you're wrong in saying that if the Government started such a system that banks wouldn't be involved in it. If it was heavily tied into the PAYE system then the banks would be guaranteed repayment in so far as people are in work.

As for the "smart economy". It costs money. This isn't just a State issue by the by. It's an issue with the private sector. Arguably the State should be encouraging businesses to come up with something akin to graduate programmes except for school leavers. Possibly with the inclusion of working towards a BSc or a BA through distance learning while doing it. If businesses want a "smart economy" then they should be willing to get behind it as well. Particularly high-tech firms such as Google, IBM, Twitter, Facebook, etc. That's something that the Government should get behind.

However, as I've said already. The free-fees system has arguably made it more difficult for people to progress in that every job expects experience and a good degree. Most graduates don't have the experience, and anyone else doesn't have the degree or the experience. If companies placed more emphasis on quality in-house training the experience or the degree wouldn't be such an issue.

As for your point about loans not being paid back, the default rate on such loans is actually rather low. Only about 20% of university loans in Australia defaulted. That means that they still could happily make a profit on the other 80% and still compensate on the loss of the 20%. Even then the other 20% would have more than likely been partially paid back at least.

the_observer

I'm heading down soon to have a look about again. Seriously the most interesting thing that's happened here ever. INCLUDING the new Tesco.

-Dave

Seren_

Was just sitting in the kitchen eating lunch when a report about the occupation came on Ocean FM (local radio station in the north west). Rob on the phone and all. I was like wuuuuuut??

Kiwi_knock

Seems to be standoff now, with the Guards and Lawlor in no hurry to boot them out. Be interesting now to see if they last the full week. If they do they should get plenty of media exposure and hopefully bring the issue of fees and grants onto the national agenda.

Seren_

Yeah, hopefully it will get people talking about the whole fees situation. Good on them anyway. I was a bit sceptical at first but if it helps even a little bit then that's only a good thing.

Cool_CM

Will they be occupying any labour offices?

DB21

Cool_CM wrote: »

Will they be occupying any labour offices?

I'd assume so. I can think of some interesting banners for Emmett Stagg's office.

DB21

Updated the post with all the links on the other page. If Dave doesn't mind, I might nick some of the twitter highlights myself for here.

DB21

Another media mention, this time from breakingnews.ie/Irish Examiner: http://budget.breakingnews.ie/news/we-have-wood-nails-food-toilet-chimney-protesting-students-occupy-tds-office-530750.html#idc-cover

DB21

Not much else of note today. Visit from Gary Redmond and Sinn Féin politician Martin Kelly seems to be the height of it.

The Waltzing Consumer

:rolleyes: I can certainly understand this action if FG were a single party government but that is not what people voted for, the people wanted a coalition which means compromise on everything.

So it is an absolute waste of time for people to be moaning about broken pre-election promises because they are not based on coalitions.

The only real alternative to fees is to tackle the vast vast majority of Educations budget which goes to pay and pensions. With or without recession, with or without bank bailouts, this would be the same situation.

If NUI Maynooth gets x Euro a year and 80% + is simply going on pay and pensions, how the hell do you expect any Government to sustain that without charging fees? Unless you tackle the 80% (Labour bedfellows), you ain't going to get real change.

So sorry lads, your heart is in right place, but it is pointless.

DB21

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

:rolleyes: I can certainly understand this action if FG were a single party government but that is not what people voted for, the people wanted a coalition which means compromise on everything.

Both Labour and Fine Gael promised no fee increases, and no grant cuts. Do some research before you start calling protests pointless.

Ostrom

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

:rolleyes: I can certainly understand this action if FG were a single party government but that is not what people voted for, the people wanted a coalition which means compromise on everything.

So it is an absolute waste of time for people to be moaning about broken pre-election promises because they are not based on coalitions.

The only real alternative to fees is to tackle the vast vast majority of Educations budget which goes to pay and pensions. With or without recession, with or without bank bailouts, this would be the same situation.

If NUI Maynooth gets x Euro a year and 80% + is simply going on pay and pensions, how the hell do you expect any Government to sustain that without charging fees? Unless you tackle the 80% (Labour bedfellows), you ain't going to get real change.

So sorry lads, your heart is in right place, but it is pointless.

The root causes of this deficit will not vanish with a few cycles of balanced budgets - and it is actions like this which highlight (however tangentially) the underlying corruption and absent accountability. If these past months have revealed anything, it is that these issues are systemic, and continue irrespective of party ideology or minor variations on social/fiscal policy etc.

http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/20220212/

The Waltzing Consumer

DB21 wrote: »

Both Labour and Fine Gael promised no fee increases, and no grant cuts. Do some research before you start calling protests pointless.

Well, I will definitely stand corrected and apologise if you can show me that both manifestos were based on entering a coalition.

As far as I know and read, both parties campaigned on the hope of single party governments, so my point stands, unless of course you can provide that link?

The Waltzing Consumer

efla wrote: »

The root causes of this deficit will not vanish with a few cycles of balanced budgets - and it is actions like this which highlight (however tangentially) the underlying corruption and absent accountability. If these past months have revealed anything, it is that these issues are systemic, and continue irrespective of party ideology or minor variations on social/fiscal policy etc.

http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/20220212/

That link is certainly a fair point but has zero zero zero to do with Education and the Education budget so that get's no response.

Em, balancing a budget does get rid of deficit. Is that not the point of balancing?

The only thing this will highlight is the continued delusional mind of certain groups of people who think we have money and should get everything for free. Come up with a realistic plan and you will get plenty of support.

Ostrom

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

That link is certainly a fair point but has zero zero zero to do with Education and the Education budget so that get's no response.

It speaks directly to the clientalism and nepotism which drives party politics - issues which I understand prompted the occupation. The idea that national budgets are a value/influence free formulation is nonsense; pre-budget week is the most active for lobbyist submissions (the point being that the share allocated to education will undoubtedly be the result of a careful weighting of potential political fallout, and the respective clout of other interest groups). The connection is profound, but insidious - and accountability is a part of this (albeit one of numerous others).

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Em, balancing a budget does get rid of deficit. Is that not the point of balancing?

It sorts the deficit. Not, as I sugggested, the root cause.

Assuming the public are naive enough to assume this correction is as much as is needed, then the issue is solved with accouting. However, this is but one in a long historical cycle of crisis-induced austerity budgets - with clear political underpinnings - which inevitably induces more upward transfers from those least able to pay.

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

The only thing this will highlight is the continued delusional mind of certain groups of people who think we have money and should get everything for free. Come up with a realistic plan and you will get plenty of support.

Indeed - as long as you acknowledge it works both ways. The whip system only last month ensured an unchallenged payout of 730 million to Anglos unsecured senior bondholders. Does this class also form part of the 'deluded entitlement' mentality?

DB21

Young Fine Gael have their knickers in a twist:

Yesterday afternoon members of Maynooth SU occupied the constituency office of Fine Gael TD Anthony Lawlor in Naas. The protesters are expressing their opposition to any possible cutting of the grant and any increase in fees for third level education.



“It is completely understandable that there is much fear from students as they await the Budget, which will be released on Tuesday. However, from the numerous Tweets and Facebook status updates from the occupiers this seems to be more of an attack on a Fine Gael TD and his staff than an opportunity to stand up against fees,” Chair of YFG Maynooth said today.



“Most of these updates mention Fine Gael and they also encourage other students to call or text Anthony Lawlor on his mobile phone and to give him abuse. Any democratic protest should not be an attack on one particular TD, from one party within the government coalition,” he continued.



If Maynooth Students’ Union wanted to send a strong message to the coalition government on this issue, they could have occupied the offices of all coalition party members within the constituency.

DB21

Waltzing Consumer:

Both parties promised this. Why would they turn around and eliminate a common policy? It would be highly counter-productive, but then again, this is Irish politics.

And this isn't a delusional group wanting things for free. This is a group of people tired of being easy targets. Tired of broken promises. This government and the last has prided itself of the "smart economy" and now is intent on crushing it. No graduates means no multinationals. We can't compete like we used to in agriculture, and we can't beat the likes of India and China for manufacturing. So why are the government intent on propping up dead banks instead of playing to our strengths?

Kiwi_knock

In response to YFG claiming that the SU should have occupied Labour offices: Anthony Lawlor is the only government TD in the constituency that has a constituency office. So it was not a deliberate targeting of one party and one TD, it was just the fact he was the only one that had an office. I'm sure if Stagg or Durkan had offices in the area they would have been occupied as well.

Lugh Ildanach

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

:rolleyes: I can certainly understand this action if FG were a single party government but that is not what people voted for, the people wanted a coalition which means compromise on everything.

So it is an absolute waste of time for people to be moaning about broken pre-election promises because they are not based on coalitions.

The only real alternative to fees is to tackle the vast vast majority of Educations budget which goes to pay and pensions. With or without recession, with or without bank bailouts, this would be the same situation.

If NUI Maynooth gets x Euro a year and 80% + is simply going on pay and pensions, how the hell do you expect any Government to sustain that without charging fees? Unless you tackle the 80% (Labour bedfellows), you ain't going to get real change.

So sorry lads, your heart is in right place, but it is pointless.

Of course there is an alternative, fund free education by taxing the wealthy (who are the people who ultimately gain most from having an educated class of workers).

It mightn't be to everyone's liking (well, certainly not the liking of the political elite and their lackies), but it is an alternative.

XxMCRxBabyxX

Lugh Ildanach wrote: »

Of course there is an alternative, fund free education by taxing the wealthy (who are the people who ultimately gain most from having an educated class of workers).

It mightn't be to everyone's liking (well, certainly not the liking of the political elite and their lackies), but it is an alternative.

The wealthy who are also the ones paying the most into this country as it is and the ones who can provide jobs

DB21

Gardaí threatening to cut electricity now

Lugh Ildanach

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

The wealthy who are also the ones paying the most into this country as it is and the ones who can provide jobs

The wealthy are only wealthy because they have taken the wealth from those who have produced it, ie the workers.

The only reason we need the wealthy to "create" jobs is because they have stolen the land and ensured that we can't work for ourselves. We don't owe them anything, they owe us everything that they have!

DB21

Lugh Ildanach wrote: »

The wealthy are only wealthy because they have taken the wealth from those who have produced it, ie the workers.

The only reason we need the wealthy to "create" jobs is because they have stolen the land and ensured that we can't work for ourselves. We don't owe them anything, they owe us everything that they have!

...What? I'm genuinely asking; do you seriously believe that?

Lugh Ildanach

DB21 wrote: »

...What? I'm genuinely asking; do you seriously believe that?

Its not a matter of me believing it, it is economic fact. How else do you think the wealthy get their wealth? Do you think they actually do the work themselves?

Seren_

FEE are now occupying Eoghan Murphy's (another FG TD) office in Ranelagh. Statement from FEE.

XxMCRxBabyxX

Lugh Ildanach wrote: »

Its not a matter of me believing it, it is economic fact. How else do you think the wealthy get their wealth? Do you think they actually do the work themselves?

That's exactly what they did. They built themselves uup and earned their own money.

How exactly have they "taken" anyone else's wealth?
And how did those people build up theirwealth for it to be taken then?

Lugh Ildanach

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

That's exactly what they did. They built themselves uup and earned their own money.

How exactly have they "taken" anyone else's wealth?
And how did those people build up theirwealth for it to be taken then?

Its basic economics, the workers do all the work, and the employer then takes the profits and gives a percentage of the profits to the employees, depending on how little he can get away with.

Some employers do work hard, as hard as any employee, but many do nothing. The amount of money that you get doesn't depend on how hard you work, it depends on whether you own the business or not. Many workers work extremely hard and do not get paid more than minimum wage.

Its only fair that those who use the system of education to make a profit pay for that system. The easiest way to determine who has benefitted from the various social systems that are in place is to see who has made the most profit and have accumulated the most wealth. They should pay the most towards education. Its simple really.

XxMCRxBabyxX

Lugh Ildanach wrote: »

Its basic economics, the workers do all the work, and the employer then takes the profits and gives a percentage of the profits to the employees, depending on how little he can get away with.

Some employers do work hard, as hard as any employee, but many do nothing. The amount of money that you get doesn't depend on how hard you work, it depends on whether you own the business or not. Many workers work extremely hard and do not get paid more than minimum wage.

Its only fair that those who use the system of education to make a profit pay for that system. The easiest way to determine who has benefitted from the various social systems that are in place is to see who has made the most profit and have accumulated the most wealth. They should pay the most towards education. Its simple really.

And how do you imagine that these employers built themselves up to a position to where they could be the ones employing and not being employed? They worked.

Why should they pay for someone else's education? Surely they'd rather take on someone who will willingly pay and work for his own education than someone who expects it to be paid for him.

The wealthy pay a lot into this country as is. More than the wealthy of other countries pay. Why should they pay for everyone's education too? that's hardly fair

mickstupp

Lugh Ildanach wrote: »

Its only fair that those who use the system of education to make a profit pay for that system.

This is a statement that could easily be applied to any student who gets a job due to having an education, since their prospective wages are (ideally) greatly increased by having a degree. They'd be making a profit, as you put it, beyond what they'd get without a degree.

Personally, I don't see why anyone but me should pay for my education. But admittedly, while I consider basic education to be a right, I consider third level education to be a privilege. So I'm probably in a minority here.

I love what the guys are doing here, though. Makes me even happier to be in NUIM. People are standing up for what they believe and that's to be applauded.

Madworld

Lugh Ildanach wrote: »

Its only fair that those who use the system of education to make a profit pay for that system.

Because so much profit is made from a 50 year old mature student who decides to go back to college to do Greek and Roman Civilization with Medieval Irish & Celtic Studies. :rolleyes:

Were in a recession at the moment. I would much rather to pay my fees back in a loan system, rather than the current system where fees are heavily subsidised whilst people are dying due to their local A&E's closing.