Preserved Cravens?

corktina

I thought the RPSI had a rake of these but something I read makes me think Im wroing. Are there any preserved?

ps are they all-steel?)

flyingsnail

Yes the RPSI has a rake of cravens, and yes they are steel bodied. They will be used on the Santa trains this year.

The RPSI has;
1505
1506
1508
1514
1522
1523
1529
1532
1539
1541
BR 3173
BR 3185

corktina

thtas good! they would look much better than a mk2 rake

Niles

Far more distinctively Irish than BREL designed mkII or mkIII stock in my opinon.

In addition the bodyshell of 1558 is located at a hotel in Naas(?). (It's the same place that has/had the mkIIIA coaches). It's devoid of bogies however.

Drimnagh Road

Don't like the blue livery myself. Should have painted them into black and tan, at least that was a livery worn by the Cravens. Done a good job on the interior though.

Cookie_Monster

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

Don't like the blue livery myself. Should have painted them into black and tan, at least that was a livery worn by the Cravens.

+1, dunno where they're getting the blue from...
It looks awful

lord lucan

Classic CIE green with flying snail would look the business,especially with 461 now sporting that colour. They used to be in green years ago and looked great. There's also a deeper green i've seen in pics,i think the GSRPS had it(though not on Cravens),that looked great.

Judgement Day

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=70818004

Losty Dublin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

+1, dunno where they're getting the blue from...
It looks awful

RPSI asked their working members in Dublin to select a colour scheme, the main proviso being that it needs to distinct it from Irish Rail liveries (RSC's call, not Irish Rail) as the RPSI is a separate railway undertaking. This obviously rules out black and tan so after a few options, that shade of blue is what we went with.

Drimnagh Road

That green would look great on the Cravens.

With the RPSI rake of mk2s, well they never ran in that green livery obviously because the RPSI were forced to introduce a rake of mk2s to comply with elf & safety up North.

So, fare play to the Northern section for choosing to paint them in UTA Green, and thus at least replicating something genuine, and they look the part at that.

But Blue Cravens?... I don't remember any sort of blue carriages running anywhere in Ireland, sans the NIR stock back in the 90s, and the current blue livery is certainly not a representation of that, and it's not meant to be either.

It just doesn't look right.

Cookie_Monster

Losty Dublin wrote: »

RPSI asked their working members in Dublin to select a colour scheme, the main proviso being that it needs to distinct it from Irish Rail liveries (RSC's call, not Irish Rail) as the RPSI is a separate railway undertaking. This obviously rules out black and tan so after a few options, that shade of blue is what we went with.

Why are the RSC demanding that? Black and Tan is also not a current livery so that's hardly an issue, they are supposed to be preserved running examples, why are they not preserved in the correct colours...
Will the RPSI be repainting 141 and 142 also to comply or is it just carriages for some bizarre reason?

Losty Dublin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Why are the RSC demanding that? Black and Tan is also not a current livery so that's hardly an issue, they are supposed to be preserved running examples, why are they not preserved in the correct colours...
Will the RPSI be repainting 141 and 142 also to comply or is it just carriages for some bizarre reason?

They request this and not demand it, that's your word RPSI is happy to comply as their rationale makes sense as people still associate black and tan with Irish Rail and assume our trains are service trains when we pull up. As to if the others in the set will be repainted, that's as much down to manpower as anything as it takes a long time to strip down, prepare and repaint a carriage.

steamengine

lord lucan wrote: »

Classic CIE green with flying snail would look the business,especially with 461 now sporting that colour. They used to be in green years ago and looked great. There's also a deeper green i've seen in pics,i think the GSRPS had it(though not on Cravens),that looked great.

Similarly the blue carriages will suit both Slieve Gullion and Merlin when they re-appear in traffic. So long as there's not forty shades as in green.

corktina

Losty Dublin wrote: »

They request this and not demand it, that's your word RPSI is happy to comply as their rationale makes sense as people still associate black and tan with Irish Rail and assume our trains are service trains when we pull up. As to if the others in the set will be repainted, that's as much down to manpower as anything as it takes a long time to strip down, prepare and repaint a carriage.

yes I can see that passengers thinking it was an ordinary train might be a problem but painting it blue probably wont make much difference.

I rmemebr years ago talking to the fitters at a London Country bus depot who had an old "RF" bus (long obsolete at this time) as a breakdown vehicle. It was painted yellow and silver (instead of the normal Green) and had just one seat left inside and some old dear STILL climbed in and sat down...

Drimnagh Road

The Cravens were withdrawn from Irish Rail in late 2006. The writing was on the wall for these carriages anyway, but it was expected they would survive into early 2007. It was an article written by David McWilliams in a national newspaper in which he endured an apparently torrid journey from Dublin-Cork on Cravens that resulted in the plug been pulled a week later. (That article is here, he says mistakenly the Cravens were built in the 50s).

Now, orange and black very much was still in vogue at the time, with mk2s and mk3s having a few years left in service, with the first 22000s only been finished in the Far East.

So, I think Irish Rail at the time were concerned that if the Cravens were to be seen going up and down the country on RPSI charters, that customers would assume that these "ancient" coaches were still in use with the company - unaware of the RPSI. That is the only time I ever heard that they were asked to paint the Cravens in a non orange livery.

In the end though, the Cravens were rearly used by the RPSI until 2008 - 2009, so didn't really make any difference.

Fast forward to 2011, and the only orange and black trains left in this country are rotting away in sidings awaiting their date with the scrapman. Absolute zero chance of confusion, unless of course the contractor coming in to scrap the mk3s scraps the Cravens too (joking)...

So, the proviso that it needs to be distinctive from IE livery is very irrelevant in this day and age. We could also claim that the green livery on the heritage set is too similar to the DART and thus would have to be re-painted into a crazy shade of darkest black to avoid confusion.

Losty Dublin

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

The Cravens were withdrawn from Irish Rail in late 2006. The writing was on the wall for these carriages anyway, but it was expected they would survive into early 2007. It was an article written by David McWilliams in a national newspaper in which he endured an apparently torrid journey from Dublin-Cork on Cravens that resulted in the plug been pulled a week later. (That article is here, he says mistakenly the Cravens were built in the 50s).

The introduction of Mark 4's saw to them being retired off, Mark 3 sets being freed up from same. If you genuinely believe that an article hastened their retirement then the best of luck to you.

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

Now, orange and black very much was still in vogue at the time, with mk2s and mk3s having a few years left in service, with the first 22000s only been finished in the Far East.

So, I think Irish Rail at the time were concerned that if the Cravens were to be seen going up and down the country on RPSI charters, that customers would assume that these "ancient" coaches were still in use with the company - unaware of the RPSI. That is the only time I ever heard that they were asked to paint the Cravens in a non orange livery.

Well you think wrong on that one. Again

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

In the end though, the Cravens were rearly used by the RPSI until 2008 - 2009, so didn't really make any difference.

Incorrect. The RPSI have used the Craven's regularly for donkey years now, just that they were in Irish Rail ownership until 2008. Check back on their website for many a photo of them on tours over the years.

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

Fast forward to 2011, and the only orange and black trains left in this country are rotting away in sidings awaiting their date with the scrapman. Absolute zero chance of confusion, unless of course the contractor coming in to scrap the mk3s scraps the Cravens too (joking)...

So, the proviso that it needs to be distinctive from IE livery is very irrelevant in this day and age. We could also claim that the green livery on the heritage set is too similar to the DART and thus would have to be re-painted into a crazy shade of darkest black to avoid confusion.

If you bothered to read anything of what I said, the RSC actually requested same but let not a few facts get in the way of a bit of RPSI bashing from a disgruntled gricer In spite of what you say there is a lot of merit in same as people still associate the old colour schemes with trains; more than once our trains have been boarded by people assuming they are service trains. Maybe you should have stayed around a bit longer than half an hour and we'd have let you choose the paint scheme

Niles

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

So, I think Irish Rail at the time were concerned that if the Cravens were to be seen going up and down the country on RPSI charters, that customers would assume that these "ancient" coaches were still in use with the company - unaware of the RPSI. That is the only time I ever heard that they were asked to paint the Cravens in a non orange livery.

In the end though, the Cravens were rearly used by the RPSI until 2008 - 2009, so didn't really make any difference.

Fast forward to 2011, and the only orange and black trains left in this country are rotting away in sidings awaiting their date with the scrapman. Absolute zero chance of confusion, unless of course the contractor coming in to scrap the mk3s scraps the Cravens too (joking)...

So, the proviso that it needs to be distinctive from IE livery is very irrelevant in this day and age. We could also claim that the green livery on the heritage set is too similar to the DART and thus would have to be re-painted into a crazy shade of darkest black to avoid confusion.

No, IÉ were adamant the preserved rolling stock operating on the mainline does not wear a livery resembling one of the year previous ones. The wanted the RPSI to have it's own distinctive image. In any case to this day the public seem to associate black & orange with diesels, it looks "ordinary". You'd be surprised how people still associate orange and black with IÉ, I've seen passengers avoid the orange liveried Cravens for the blue one at places like Wexford where it has been a very long time since orange trains regularly graced the rails (July 2004!), you'd think by that stage such an image would have been recast as blue and green but there you go. Indeed, on this very site a few days ago a poster referred to the possibility of an IÉ diesel on the Santa as a "clockwork orange".

Some of the Cravens still carry their old livery, but this is on the understanding that they will be all be eventually out-shopped in RPSI blue. 1506 was completed recently, entering service for the first time in RPSI ownership on today's Santa trains. The actual repainting process takes time, or rather more the bodywork restoration does, with the work being carried out by volunteers one day a week, better to get the bodywork right than have the paint flake off within a year.

As Losty pointed out, the choice of blue was a democratic decision taken by the volunteers who devoted their time to the project. Yes some enthusiasts have said they don't like it, but many have. You can't please everyone. When the Cravens were bought the RPSI advertised for volunteers in both their own members' bulletin, and the IRN site, the latter would have allowed non-members to know what's going on. Those who volunteered to help got their say with the livery, quite fair I think. They decided not to go for green was as the Society already has two rakes of carriages in green, most of the Heritage set is painted in CIÉ green, the mkII set in "British Racing green" (similar, but not quite the same as UTA green, which was darker). They wanted something different.

As I said anyone could have potentially had their say in the livery choice, they just had to volunteer to help carry out the project.

Cookie_Monster

So again why only carriages and not locos and why are the CIE green ones acceptable but the orange not?
sounds like bureaucracy for the sake of it to me

Niles wrote: »

Indeed, on this very site a few days ago a poster referred to the possibility of an IÉ diesel on the Santa as a "clockwork orange".

quite a few 201s and 071s in Orange still to be fair...

Niles

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

So again why only carriages and not locos and why are the CIE green ones acceptable but the orange not?
sounds like bureaucracy for the sake of it to me

You'd have to ask IÉ that for certain (NIR have a similar rule, which is why the mkIIs couldn't have been painted maroon & blue, which I believe was suggested). Though strictly speaking CIÉ green was not an IÉ livery, nor similar to any of their's; likewise the 141s carry an older livery distinct from "black and orange" variations that commenced with the 'Supertrain' livery and evolved into the IÉ white stripe livery.

Drimnagh Road

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The introduction of Mark 4's saw to them being retired off, Mark 3 sets being freed up from same. If you genuinely believe that an article hastened their retirement then the best of luck to you.

McWilliams article was published on Sunday 10th December 2006. The Cravens final service was the 05:05 Athlone-Dublin the following morning.

"Following a meeting of senior Irish Rail management at Connolly Station later that morning, it was decided to withdraw the remaining Cravens with immiediate effect" - source, Railways Illustrated magazine February 2007.

As I said previously, yes the Cravens were due for imminent withdrawal anyway, but I don't think it impossible that senior manager(s) who would have read the article on Sunday would have made it top of the agenda to discuss at the Monday morning meeting.

A check with the operations side to see if it was possible to cover all services without the last few Cravens and the job was probably oxo.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Maybe you should have stayed around a bit longer than half an hour and we'd have let you choose the paint scheme

I decided that I didn't want to turn into an institutionalised hermit agreeing with everything and staunchley defending everything they do just because I was expected to as "part of the gang", as I witnessed during my brief time.

I am "RPSI bashing" because I don't like this blue livery, sort of reflects my feelings above.

I must say though, I can sleep easier now knowing that the paint scheme was chosen by democratic choice. Though it would have been more democratic to ask paying members by poll to choose the livery.

Judgement Day

As a former RPSI member, but not a volunteer, it was the friendly welcome that we used to receive at Whitehead back in the late 1970s that did it for me. Like a turd in a swimming pool! My memory is of segregation in the bar at the Dolphin Hotel - perhaps it was my aftershave or maybe it was just the traditional Nordie way of treating southerners. Anyway, the colour scheme on the Cravens sucks but it doesn't worry me as I'm most unlikely to come into contact with them.

Losty Dublin

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

McWilliams article was published on Sunday 10th December 2006. The Cravens final service was the 05:05 Athlone-Dublin the following morning.

"Following a meeting of senior Irish Rail management at Connolly Station later that morning, it was decided to withdraw the remaining Cravens with immiediate effect" - source, Railways Illustrated magazine February 2007.

If you genuinely think that Irish Rail called a meeting and decided withdrew stock on the basis of what was an opinion piece in a newspaper then fair play to you. The truth won't very close to your version as per usual

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

I decided that I didn't want to turn into an institutionalised hermit agreeing with everything and staunchley defending everything they do just because I was expected to as "part of the gang", as I witnessed during my brief time.

Which was hardly a sound call by you given that you spent about 2 hours of a visit to the Carriage team before high tailing it. I don't know quite what you expected to change when there but if you think you were going to rejuvenate the modus operandi or turn it all inside out to suit you then you came down with the last shower. There has been plenty of lads turn up there thinking a few days with the paintbrush gets them a cab ride or something; suffice to say it don't work like that

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

I am "RPSI bashing" because I don't like this blue livery, sort of reflects my feelings above.

I must say though, I can sleep easier now knowing that the paint scheme was chosen by democratic choice. Though it would have been more democratic to ask paying members by poll to choose the livery.

I'm a paying member and I was asked. Shame you weren't

Niles

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

McWilliams article was published on Sunday 10th December 2006. The Cravens final service was the 05:05 Athlone-Dublin the following morning.

"Following a meeting of senior Irish Rail management at Connolly Station later that morning, it was decided to withdraw the remaining Cravens with immiediate effect" - source, Railways Illustrated magazine February 2007.

As I said previously, yes the Cravens were due for imminent withdrawal anyway, but I don't think it impossible that senior manager(s) who would have read the article on Sunday would have made it top of the agenda to discuss at the Monday morning meeting.

No idea myself, but the conspiracy theorist in me wonders if it is possible that the visit of McWilliams was not as co-incidental as one might think... new mkIVs come out looking great... I don't know, the Cravens would have been gone sooner or later anyway. The Ballina Cravens set did its last passenger run two days before that.

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

I decided that I didn't want to turn into an institutionalised hermit agreeing with everything and staunchley defending everything they do just because I was expected to as "part of the gang", as I witnessed during my brief time.

Well, only speaking personally, but I would only defend what I personally believe in/agree with myself. The right of volunteers to have their say in the work they do is such an example. And standing in Connolly yesterday evening, I thought the three blue Cravens (1506, 1523 and 1541) looked well together. Not everyone agrees, they're entitled to.

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

I must say though, I can sleep easier now knowing that the paint scheme was chosen by democratic choice. Though it would have been more democratic to ask paying members by poll to choose the livery.

The volunteers are paying members as well, for insurance purposes they have to be. Plus they give their time, spend money on getting to and from Inchicore, etc. In addition, a mock-up image was prepared and shown to the syndicate who had put money forward to actually buy the carriages. They too were happy with it, and the livery was then approved by what was then known as the RPSI Council (now known as the Board).

Judgement Day wrote: »

As a former RPSI member, but not a volunteer, it was the friendly welcome that we used to receive at Whitehead back in the late 1970s that did it for me. Like a turd in a swimming pool! My memory is of segregation in the bar at the Dolphin Hotel - perhaps it was my aftershave or maybe it was just the traditional Nordie way of treating southerners. Anyway, the colour scheme on the Cravens sucks but it doesn't worry me as I'm most unlikely to come into contact with them.

I don't really have much dealings with Whitehead myself, and I wasn't even born in the 1970s, so can't really comment either way! I have to say though since I joined in Dublin I've found people to be quite friendly across the departments.

Victor

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Well you think wrong on that one. Again

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The truth won't very close to your version as per usual

Less of the snideness please.

dmcronin

Personally, I don't like the blue. I think the heraldic emblems and yellow steam loco type lining don't quite go with a 'modern' 1960's design. Would prefer a two-tone livery, not necessarily black/orange. But each to his own.

dowlingm

I like the dark green, although I could live without the snail.