Going to take the plunge and get a high efficency gas boiler

Barack Obama

I’ve spent some time and read through a lot of posts on here. There are a lot of really helpful posts from professionals – thanks lads. We have a 5 bed detached house that’s about 15 years old and the building spec is not great. I’ve been insulating the house as much as I can and the next step is to upgrade the boiler. I’d be grateful if someone could help me with a few questions –

It looks like I can get the high efficiency boiler only fitted for about €2k but the boiler and controls fitted to SEAI spec will cost about €3k (including grant). This is a lot extra – is it really worth it?


In order for me to get an SEAI grant for the boiler\controls, it looks like I also have to get a BER certification done as well (at extra cost). Is this correct or will the quote that the seai approved contractor gives me include this as well? It’s not exactly clear on their website…

Cheers

Barack Obama

Forgot to mention that I don;t think a combi-boiler would suit. The reason is that some of the bathrooms are a long way from the boiler and it would take a long time for the hot water to get to the tap - that's the way it is at the minute from the immersion tank anyway.

I'm open to suggestions - we have a pump electric shower only so this relies on hot water in the system.

PMC999

Barack Obama wrote: »

I’ve spent some time and read through a lot of posts on here. There are a lot of really helpful posts from professionals – thanks lads. We have a 5 bed detached house that’s about 15 years old and the building spec is not great. I’ve been insulating the house as much as I can and the next step is to upgrade the boiler. I’d be grateful if someone could help me with a few questions –

It looks like I can get the high efficiency boiler only fitted for about €2k but the boiler and controls fitted to SEAI spec will cost about €3k (including grant). This is a lot extra – is it really worth it?


In order for me to get an SEAI grant for the boiler\controls, it looks like I also have to get a BER certification done as well (at extra cost). Is this correct or will the quote that the seai approved contractor gives me include this as well? It’s not exactly clear on their website…

Cheers

If you want to get a grant from SEAI you need to install a high efficiency boiler and get heating controls installed. Heating controls will give you the choice of heating 'zones' in your house e.g.the radiators upstairs, radiators downstairs, hot water or any combination of these. It's well worth it in my opinion.
To get the grant you need to apply before any work is started. You can also apply for a grant toward the cost of the BER. A BER is required once the work has been completed.

JohnnieK

Barack Obama wrote: »

Forgot to mention that I don;t think a combi-boiler would suit. The reason is that some of the bathrooms are a long way from the boiler and it would take a long time for the hot water to get to the tap - that's the way it is at the minute from the immersion tank anyway.

I'm open to suggestions - we have a pump electric shower only so this relies on hot water in the system.

Would there be an option available to re-locate the boiler more central for hot water distribution?

Even just putting a thermostat in the house to control the boiler would be more efficient than what you have at the moment.

Controls do make a heating system more efficient and the more of them you have the more efficient the system will be, and the way gas and oil is going I would be trying to squeeze as much out of it as possible.

Barack Obama

PMC999 wrote: »

If you want to get a grant from SEAI you need to install a high efficiency boiler and get heating controls installed. Heating controls will give you the choice of heating 'zones' in your house e.g.the radiators upstairs, radiators downstairs, hot water or any combination of these. It's well worth it in my opinion.
To get the grant you need to apply before any work is started. You can also apply for a grant toward the cost of the BER. A BER is required once the work has been completed.

How many zones would be normal for a 5 bed detched house? Was thinking 4 - d\s front and back & u\s front and back.

From the extra digging and rough quotes that I've got it looks like taking the route of the SEAI grant works out MORE expensive! I can only guess that it's because of the extra cost of the BER. I have a quote of around €2000 for new boiler and controls without the grant - €300 cheaper than I can find with the grant!

JohnnieK wrote: »

Would there be an option available to re-locate the boiler more central for hot water distribution?

Even just putting a thermostat in the house to control the boiler would be more efficient than what you have at the moment.

Controls do make a heating system more efficient and the more of them you have the more efficient the system will be, and the way gas and oil is going I would be trying to squeeze as much out of it as possible.

The boiler is on the outer wall of the utility room and that's where the vent is so I doubt that there is a better place to put it. The hot water tank itself is pertty central - the airing vupboard is in the middle of the landing.

heinbloed

How many zones would be normal for a 5 bed detched house? Was thinking 4 - d\s front and back & u\s front and back.

Install automatic radiator thermostats on every radiator and forget about inefficient zoning.

Each emitter (radiator) should be controlled individually. One gas pedal for speed controling for all cars in a certain zone would be called stupid, wastive. It's the same with the radiators in a house.
Controll them individually for as little as € 12.-to €15.- each. And increase the efficiency of the heating system by this.
This is how the majority of European central heating systems work. 'Zoning' is Irish, expensive, unreliable and inefficient. A job creation scheme for plumbers, payed dearly for by the consumer and the tax payers via the national trade deficit.

Barack Obama

Been researching the boiler and I like the look of the Baxi Megaflo System 24 HE A -
http://www.homeheatingguide.co.uk/efficiency-tables.php?model=015691

Are these good models?

DGOBS

Stay away from the megafow, especially if you suffer limescale in your area!

As for using only TRVs on your rads, they should be used in conjunction with zoning as TRVs do not give interlock to the heat emitter leaving the system prone to short cycling. Fact, not theory.

Good boilers would be the likes if Viessmann, Worchester, Intergas to name a few.

But if you want to go the mainland Europe way off you go, they have grey ideas, just look at the euro zone, clever people!

DGOBS

Stay away from the megafow, especially if you suffer limescale in your area!

As for using only TRVs on your rads, they should be used in conjunction with zoning as TRVs do not give interlock to the heat emitter leaving the system prone to short cycling. Fact, not theory.

Good boilers would be the likes if Viessmann, Worchester, Intergas to name a few.

But if you want to go the mainland Europe way off you go, they have great ideas, just look at the euro zone, clever people!

Barack Obama

Thanks for the tip DGOBS . Plenty of hard water in my area so if there's problems with the Baxa's then maybe I should avoid...

Is there any of the Worchester range in particular that anyone could recommend? How about the Worcester Greenstar 25 Si?
http://www.homeheatingguide.co.uk/efficiency-tables.php?make=Worcester

Reyman

Hi Barack,
I have the Bosch Worcester 24i installed two years now and my gas bills are way down. I researched the market thoroughly before getting it and it came out tops in every survey. I have to admit I'm a bit biased about any of those boilers that come out of the UK - on the basis that there's no real Engineering excellence there anymore. But that's just a personal opinion!
On another note I recommend you get the controls installed - they make a real difference. It allows you to heat small parts of the house in the Autumn and Spring and run the heating at full tilt when it gets really cold.
Another control that's really useful is a thermostat on the hot water cylinder. This allows you to turn on and off the water heating easily. If you just turn on the heating for an hour or two, you don't have to heat 30 gallons of water every time.
PS. I've a bungalow about 1,500 sq.ft

Barack Obama

heinbloed wrote: »

Install automatic radiator thermostats on every radiator and forget about inefficient zoning.

Each emitter (radiator) should be controlled individually. One gas pedal for speed controling for all cars in a certain zone would be called stupid, wastive. It's the same with the radiators in a house.
Controll them individually for as little as € 12.-to €15.- each. And increase the efficiency of the heating system by this.
This is how the majority of European central heating systems work. 'Zoning' is Irish, expensive, unreliable and inefficient. A job creation scheme for plumbers, payed dearly for by the consumer and the tax payers via the national trade deficit.

Great info Heinbloed - thanks. The more I ask experts, the more zoning seems to be a waste of money and I should get TRVs fitted to the radiators. Is this something I can do myself?

I'm still going to go ahead with the boiler upgrade so this should make a big difference. It looks like the SEAI grant has been suspended as well...

DGOBS

not to zone is a mistake, zoning with trvs (except in rooms with stat) is the way to maximize you potential fuel savings!

I think zoning works well, I think zoning with TRV's works even better, you need a boiler interlock so the boiler knows when it's job is done without that your TRVs will be off as they reached temperature but your boiler will continue to cycle on and off.

Barack Obama

DGOBS wrote: »

not to zone is a mistake, zoning with trvs (except in rooms with stat) is the way to maximize you potential fuel savings!

Stat? Great - another thing to add to the equation! I guess these would have to be cabled around the house and would cost a fair bit to do??

If the SEAI are removing the grant for the controls then it's going to cost anywhere between €600-€1k to get zoning installed. I doubt I would make that back tbh...

gary71 wrote: »

I think zoning works well, I think zoning with TRV's works even better, you need a boiler interlock so the boiler knows when it's job is done without that your TRVs will be off as they reached temperature but your boiler will continue to cycle on and off.

Hmmm... The guy I had quote me mentioned nothing about an interlock but that makes complete sense Gary. I better do some more checking.

Are all TRVs the same? The Honeywell VT15 seems like a good budget model - would you recommend them? From the looks of it, the entire valve is replaced so it could be a messy enough job so I'll probably get the installer to look after that for me as well.

A TRV is a device that can restrict the flow of water depending on the air temperature it senses around it or from a attached sensor, the first being the most common, they all do pretty much the same thing but the new funkier ones can come with more controllability, no TRVs i'v seen will switch off your boiler to prevent wasting fuel.

I don't fit TRV's anymore but honeywell make good stuff and TRV's are very easy to fit once the system is drained.

Have a look at:http://www.burnley.gov.uk/site/scripts/download.php?fileID=2518

DGOBS

A zoned system is useless without interlock (it's a given)

What you looking for your research is an s-plan

heinbloed

Barack Obama asks:

The more I ask experts, the more zoning seems to be a waste of money and I should get TRVs fitted to the radiators. Is this something I can do myself?

Absolutely, check the TRV manufacturer's home page, most have very good DIYer 'how-to-do-it' pages.

The radiators have to be installed and joined to the distribution system, the entire system then to be pressure proved. So the installation of the TRVs would be the heating system installer's job.
Which can be done on a DIY base as well, depending how handy Andy is

If
a.) installing a timer with the boiler and

b.) a minimum 'thermal draw' is always guaranteed there is absolutly no technical or economical reason for Irish 'zoning'. Then simply forget about it.
The 'minimum thermal draw' can be guarenteed by various ways: a buffer tank connected (wastefull, depending on the overall heating system), a radiator installed which is always open (frequently the bathroom radiator is chosen for this), the installation of TRVs which allow for a fixed minimum draw.

The smallest thermal consumer (radiator, buffer tank) determines the boiler's minimum outlet.
For example the smallest consumer consumees 2 kW then the boiler has to modulate from 2 kW upwards. The minimum output of the boiler should then be 2kW plus a bit for distribution loss.
This way no 'zoning' is necessary, each room now being an independant zone fully controlled.

Keep in mind that many posters here in the forum are not very up-to date, TRVs with a pre-set minimum draw some haven't seen, non-zoned CH heating systems are only know from home and Grandma's cottage.
Experience in modern energy management is hardly found since energy management is hardly tought anywhere on this Island.
As long as the consumer don't ask most plumbers don't bother to inform themself.

Was an energy demand calculation done ( EN12831) so far? What is the maximum demand for CH, a.)with and b.)without DHW?

DGOBS

which boiler has a minimum of 2kw?

Zoning provides 'BOILER INTERLOCK' trv's do not, it's pretty simple.

The benefit of zoning, is that different areas can have a combination of time & temperature control that interlock with the appliance, this should be complimented with TRV's to further enhance the control within the zones. This is done to maximize the fuel savings on your system. FACT

With only trvs in control, what happens when the house reaches temperature?
Why heat your water storage tank when you have no requirement for hot water?
Why heat a zone such as sleeping areas during the daytime?
Why heat the living zones of the house when your sleeping?

heinbloed

DGOBS asks:

which boiler has a minimum of 2kw?

Here again the list which you should have copied and printed out:



http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75244837


Choice of boilers don't seem to be your strength, DGOBS. Have you asked Viessmann about their modulating condensing oil boiler - as promised?

heinbloed

heinbloed wrote: »

Choice of boilers don't seem to be your strength, DGOBS.?

:pac::pac:

DGOBS

Most gas boilers that are available here do not modulate down as low as 2kw (either do most on that list!) and the ones that do have a very low max output

As I previously said, I will be in Viesmann in the new year (march)
But at €4500 aprox for a barely 3% increase in efficiency, I can't see a benefit, would take beyond the life expectation of the appliance to get any ROI, unless the technology gets cheaper I see no consumer benefit.

Practical installation does not seem to be yours! As most installers here seem to agree, everything looks good on paper, go pick up a spanner!

heinbloed

DGOBS wrote:

Most gas boilers that are available here do not modulate down as low as 2kw (either do most on that list!) and the ones that do have a very low max output

Every boiler is available everywhere, DGOBS. Unless you live in Northern Korea or Myanmar.
Contact ELCO directly, their smallest starts at 1.9 kW, note below. They will sell to you as well as to anyone. Unless you live in Northern Korea .....

Correction:

The smallest boiler from this company starts at 0.9kW ( THISION S )

heinbloed

heinbloed wrote: »

DGOBS wrote:


Every boiler is available everywhere, DGOBS. Unless you live in Northern Korea or Myanmar.
Contact ELCO directly, their smallest starts at 1.9 kW. They will sell to you as well as to anyone. Unless you live in Northern Korea .....

Your being silly again;) boilers have to meet a given criteria before they are sold here, did you know that a boiler made for the Italian Market wouldn't work here or one for the French Market has a different internal wiring requirement or that each boiler sold in each country must meet the local regulations, so I'm sorry to say that a lot of the stuff you link too isn't compatible with the Irish Market.

heinbloed

A boiler with a CE mark is compatible with Irish legislations.

Any competent installer/heating engineer can install it anywhere. That's what competence stands for.

A competent business man could ask the 'foreign' company about details.
The Ariston group - to which ELCO belongs - exports to over 150 nations, so their home page says.

http://www.aristonthermo.com/worldwide/world-partner/

http://www.elco.de/produkte/thision.html


There are many more small boilers out there, including combi boilers as the OP want to install.

I work for a manufacture of boilers, i'v walked around the factories more than once:cool:, I know what's required in bringing a boiler to the UK and Irish Market, so it not as simple as you think, the new cylinder with the heat pump has been held off from the UK and Irish Market for a while now until it meets the local requirements and it has a CE Mark as it's sold in the rest of Europe.

A water heater made for the European Market can't be sold in the UK without the extras to meet UK regs, a water heater from the Uk can't be fitted here as it comes with a 3 kw element, a gas boiler for the Italian Market can't be sold here as the burner holes have a different configuration, also the instruction must be in the language of the country it's being sold in and list the local installation regs, but what do I know:pac:

heinbloed

heinbloed wrote: »

A competent business man could ask the 'foreign' company about details.
The Ariston group - to which ELCO belongs - exports to over 150 nations, so their home page says.

.

Try ringing Italy about a boiler they sell there but not in Ireland, they will put you on to their local rep who would tell you "can't help you as their not sold here"

Also thinking about it if you bring in that boiler you linked to then what do you think part availability will be like, the warranty and what if their engineer wasn't good enough to work on something he's never seen before.

DGOBS

A) Available boilers to me is what I can buy locally, stocked by agents tht are here and provide support and warranty here, tht parts are available here, if I did as you suggested, what happens when they need a part, sorry mate it's minus 5 outside, your part I'll be here in a week or so!
Your quoting only the smallest boilers, what bout the full load, max and min output have to be considered, most that modulate down so low only have low max outputs so would only be unit able for a limited number of small installations unless gong into a rated houses (of which we have not many)
C) You have not answered any of the other questions raise bout interlock and demand
D) Have you ever actually installed and commissioned a heating system?

You are blinded by theory, and cant see the wood for the trees sometimes

heinbloed

DGOBS has a lot of questions concerning the laws of physics, so I try to help:

First of all, DGOBS, mark your questions with a question mark, being literate I find it easier to identify a question even if this question has hardly any structural grammar.

Like this one:

A) Available boilers to me is what I can buy locally, stocked by agents tht are here and provide support and warranty here, tht parts are available here, if I did as you suggested, what happens when they need a part, sorry mate it's minus 5 outside, your part I'll be here in a week or so!

I suppose the underlined part is a question, what " they" stands for isn't clear to me, but I give it a try:
Contact ELCO or whoever is there and ask them about sales conditions, about technical back-up. I'm not working for them and can't advise you on this issue. It is the non-idiots (greek term, no insult) who decide what to do and how to proceed.....

Second question of yours:

C) You have not answered any of the other questions raise bout interlock and demand

That is because I took them as being of a rethorical nature.

Third question of yours:

D) Have you ever actually installed and commissioned a heating system?

Yes.



Your 'expertise' is needed by gary71, he obviously does not know how a radiator thermostat works. He thinks they work in an on-off modus. Explain to him that and how TRVs work in a modulating modus, modulating between 1% and 99%.
You would not only do gary71 a favour by teaching him a valuable lesson but doing so should answer the questions you have asked about operating non-zoned CH distribution systems where TRVs are installed.

This is a method of learning, explaining a problem whilest asking a question leads to the answer. If practised by a half-ways intelligent brain tought to ask the question whilest looking at both sides of the same medal.

Now it is up to you to teach gary71 a lesson about the technical potentials of TRVs. And you'll see your own questions as asked above will be answered.

heinbloed

DGOBS seems to have a problem concerning informations about the availablity of modern heating equipment, so I have dug out some old brochure from Viessmann (September 2011):

http://www.viessmann.se/etc/medialib/internet-se/brochyrer/engelska.Par.9570.File.File.tmp/New_Developments_2011_GB.pdf

Here we can see the 1.5 kW boiler Vitodens 300-W WB3E

If we have problems making it down to the shop, DGOBS, we can use the internet as well.

You wrote here that soon after Christmas you'll see someone from Viessmann

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75476179&postcount=18

whilest stating in this thread here that this would then be March.....

With this sort of professional attitude we'll be still brushing our teeth whilest others have done the job and being on the way home.

Me in your position wouldn't be to worried of getting spare parts just in time(smiley).