Guidance Counsellors Being Scaled Back?

doc_17

Anybody see the Irish Times this morning? Latest thinking on saving some cash is to cut guidance counsellors across all schools? Can't find a link on the web yet...will post it when it comes up.

Very regressive step

lofto

Guidance service in schools at risk under budget proposals
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SEÁN FLYNN, Education Editor

HUNDREDS OF guidance counsellors in second-level schools may be forced to scale back their work under budget proposals due to be announced next week.

The Department of Education is considering new cost-saving moves which would drastically cut the number of guidance hours in schools and force some teachers back into the classroom as subject teachers. The move is highly controversial, given the high rate of suicide – especially among young males – and the increasing need among second-level pupils for guidance and counselling services.

Eilis Coakley president of the Institute of Guidance Counsellors said the move would have “devastating effects on the provision of educational and career guidance but particularly personal counselling for students.” It would also raise serious questions about the Government’s commitment to fulfilling the provision for guidance in the Education Act, she said.

Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn has signalled in recent days he had no alternative but to proceed with the move as he sought a 4 per cent cut in the €9 billion education budget. His room for manoeuvre is limited as close to 80 per cent of this budget is absorbed by pay and pensions, which cannot be cut under the terms of the Croke Park deal on public service reform.

Mr Quinn has also been examining moves which would see the abolition of the deputy principal post in schools. But this is less likely to feature among the education cuts which will be revealed on Monday.

More than 700 second-level schools in the State are allocated guidance counsellors under a quota system. A 500-pupil school, for example, is allocated one teacher for every 19 pupils plus the school principal, deputy principal and guidance counsellor. The budget is set to increase the pupil-teacher ratio to 1:20; this will see the loss of hundreds of teaching posts.

The department’s proposal is that no specific allocation should be made for guidance counsellors. In practice this will leave many principals with little option but to reassign counsellors to “regular” subjects, while also carrying out their counselling role. All guidance counsellors are qualified second-level teachers; they also hold a qualification in guidance.

Defending the proposed move, the department has told school leaders the removal of the guidance counsellor is the best means of preserving the pupil-teacher ratio in schools while avoiding additional expense.

Boober Fraggle

Such an easy target, I can't say I'm surprised, but I am disgusted.

Chaplains, home-school liaisons and school completion staff will be the next to go!

I actually think chaplains and HSCL should go before guidance councillors.

donegal11

lofto wrote: »

The Department of Education is considering new cost-saving moves which would drastically cut the number of guidance hours in schools and force some teachers back into the classroom as subject teachers. The move is highly controversial, given the high rate of suicide – especially among young males – and the increasing need among second-level pupils for guidance and counselling services.

Linking suicide rates among young males to Career Guidance teaching

doc_17

donegal11 wrote: »

Linking suicide rates among young males to Career Guidance teaching

The career guidance teacher in schools is also a counsellor. It involves more than just helping them to fill in CAO form

A Primal Nut

No loss really, my one was fairly useless. Although I respected him at the time, in hindsight his advice was terrible.

For example, I got a D1 in Maths and needed a C3 to do Engineering. I assumed that mandatory requirements and CAO forms and offers were solid and unchangeable once the results were in and the offers were made. I know now that that had I called up the college and mentioned this to them they definitely would have let me in, or offered me a place on the ordinary degree course, as they were crying out for engineering students. There is where my expert career guidance teacher could have come in and simply told me to call the college and see what they had to say but no. I ended up repeating Maths, my suggestion which he agreed with.

Another guy had played Music all his life and wanted to study a music course, he was advised not to as there were no jobs. Probably correct, but not very helpful.

Other than meeting the odd student here and there, he taught less than three hours of classes per week. Although he was available to do so, he certainly didn't provide much counselling services although to be fair it was an all-boys school and no teenage boys would feel comfortable talking about their personal problems to anyone.

I don't see why normal teachers can't be trained in career guidance and give a few classes in addition to their normal subjects. It would also give them something to do over the summer. Full-time career guidance teachers who in reality work a few hours every week is bit of a waste.

implausible

A Primal Nut wrote: »

I don't see why normal teachers can't be trained in career guidance and give a few classes in addition to their normal subjects. Full-time career guidance teachers who in reality work a few hours every week is bit of a waste.

So because your guidance counsellor, in your opinion, was useless, we shouldn't have any full-time ones?

dambarude

Does every school have a separate chaplain and career guidance counsellor?

doc_17

dambarude wrote: »

Does every school have a separate chaplain and career guidance counsellor?

No. Some schools have both. They would be in the voluntary sector i'd imagine

donegal11

doc_17 wrote: »

The career guidance teacher in schools is also a counsellor. It involves more than just helping them to fill in CAO form

Could you give me an example of exactly how they "counsel" students and what would qualify them, a small module they did in college years ago wouldn't exactly qualify them in the true sense of the word.

They have so much limited contact time with students anyway perhaps only seeing students briefly during senior cycle for career advice why would any student go to them for say depression. The high suicide rates with "Young" males are normally referring to men well past school going age.I have nothing against guidance teacher but I hate to see suicide rates disingenuously used to promote their jobs. If anything you could say the high suicide rate was a result of the poor service guidance teachers provide ? :rolleyes:

doc_17

donegal11 wrote: »

doc_17 wrote: »

The career guidance teacher in schools is also a counsellor. It involves more than just helping them to fill in CAO form

Could you give me an example of exactly how they "counsel" students and what would qualify them, a small module they did in college years ago wouldn't exactly qualify them in the true sense of the word.

They have so much limited contact time with students anyway perhaps only seeing students briefly during senior cycle for career advice why would any student go to them for say depression. The high suicide rates with "Young" males are normally referring to men well past school going age.I have nothing against guidance teacher but I hate to see suicide rates disingenuously used to promote their jobs. If anything you could say the high suicide rate was a result of the poor service guidance teachers provide ? :rolleyes:

Teenagers can have a variety of issues to deal with, alcohol abuse, drugs, problems at home, relationships with other students, anxieity over exams etc.

I'm assuming your last remark was tounge in cheek! So forgive me for not replying to it.

donegal11

doc_17 wrote: »

Teenagers can have a variety of issues to deal with, alcohol abuse, drugs, problems at home, relationships with other students, anxieity over exams etc.

The majority of those issues should and would be solved by a family GP(who would know them better) who perhaps could refer them on to other qualified professionals, which is the best for everyone involved. "Anxiety over exams" I'll give you that, as that would be a problem perhaps solved by a guidance counselor.

doc_17

donegal11 wrote: »

doc_17 wrote: »

Teenagers can have a variety of issues to deal with, alcohol abuse, drugs, problems at home, relationships with other students, anxieity over exams etc.

The majority of those issues should and would be solved by a family GP(who would know them better) who perhaps could refer them on to other qualified professionals, which is the best for everyone involved. "Anxiety over exams" I'll give you that, as that would be a problem perhaps solved by a guidance counselor.

Don't necessarily agree that the family doctor would know a child better than some of their teachers.

TheDriver

if it was a perfect world, everyone would be perfect and all the issues in schools would not exist.
Try working in a school donegal and your comments would quickly be null and void.

Pete2012

in addition to careers and counselling, attending case conferences, being on the pastoral care team, what about all the work guidance counsellors do helping students go to college in the uk ? - a lengthy process. And helping them with the various access schemes into college, aptitude testing, subject choice, information provision, etc who will do this work now?

students often prefer to attend the guidance counsellor for counselling as there is no stigma attached to going to the guidance counsellor as they could be there for a variety of reasons some of which are mentioned above

raytray

donegal11 wrote: »

Could you give me an example of exactly how they "counsel" students and what would qualify them, a small module they did in college years ago wouldn't exactly qualify them in the true sense of the word.

It's not just a 'small module' that qualifies them in counselling. They will already be a qualified teacher but then they have to complete a postgraduate diploma or masters qualification in guidance and counselling so they are actually very well qualified.

dambarude

Guidance counsellors require very specific and detailed information to do their job properly. Dealing with leaving certs alone requires knowledge of the CAO system, the UCAS system, and in cases the wherewithal to find out about courses farther afield. They are expected to have at least a basic knowledge of most professions and pathways into them. This includes FÁS (or whatever it's called now) courses, and PLCs. God knows enough giving out is done about guidance counsellors who don't know their stuff. Who will inform students of all this if they're not there at all?

This doesn't even mention the other aspects of their job.

rainbowtrout

donegal11 wrote: »

Could you give me an example of exactly how they "counsel" students and what would qualify them, a small module they did in college years ago wouldn't exactly qualify them in the true sense of the word.

They have so much limited contact time with students anyway perhaps only seeing students briefly during senior cycle for career advice why would any student go to them for say depression. The high suicide rates with "Young" males are normally referring to men well past school going age.I have nothing against guidance teacher but I hate to see suicide rates disingenuously used to promote their jobs. If anything you could say the high suicide rate was a result of the poor service guidance teachers provide ? :rolleyes:

Before you go slagging off guidance counsellors maybe you should get your facts right.

To obtain a guidance counselling qualification, a person must first be a qualified teacher. They then complete a 1-2 year course which is at postgraduate level. One of my friends qualified in this a couple of years ago. The course cost her €7k. On top of that, before she was accepted onto the course, she was interviewed and had to go through an assessment. As part of the course she was required to attend 20 counselling sessions with a qualified psychologist, so if in the event she had any issues herself they could be resolved. That was all on top of the coursework.

Corruptable

I personally wouldn't have survived second level if it wasn't for the guidance counsellor, who as well as giving career advice (a tiny part of her work), was also a qualified psychologist who helped a lot of young people (myself included) deal with some pretty large life issues from bereavement, to the murder of a classmate, parental separation, depression, drug and alcohol, suicide, bullying of all kinds, relationships, etc., etc.

Of course I've heard horror stories at other schools of how their guidance counsellor was useless and didn't know their stuff or because they didn't recommend a person to the course they thought they wanted which they're now struggling with a third level because of bloated self-confidence in their own ability.

This counsellor was also a qualified teacher in at least two different examinable subjects.

Pete2012

I agree, Guidance Counsellors support students at school. Students can have personal issues which they need help with which the majority of staff are often unaware of.

In addition they are often involved in assessing incoming first years (in conjunction with the special needs/learning support co-ordinator).

In relation to career advice the guidance counsellor helps students explore their options and clarify their thoughts. They also help students explore the the different pathways into careers/courses etc.

The course that started this year in UL costs €10k! It is a 2 year course with very heavy course work. Will the government reimburse guidance counsellors for their course fees considering they are making the job null and void? and who will do this work now in schools? (who will do all the admin work attached to it?)

wingnut

The axe has fallen and I really don't know what the government were thinking on this one. When I think of the work our GCs do I think of the all the lives that will be adversely affected by this decision.

doc_17

But sure as long as Enda's man gets his 37k extra....

At least they didn't cut TY

Godge

To be fair there is a lot of right on both sides of this debate.

There are many highly qualified guidance counsellors out there who provide a brilliant service to their students and who are hard-working or highly motivated.

But it is also true to say that guidance counselling was seen by weak principals as somewhere they could shove a bad teacher they weren't willing to deal with and take them out of the day-to-day classroom. didn't happen in every school or in every case but they are out there. These guidance counsellors in many cases were not only bad teachers but bad employees which meant they couldn't do the job of guidance counsellor either.

Boober Fraggle

I don't believe this will affect guidance councillors in most schools. I think principals will keep the guidance councillor, and make cuts elsewhere, like getting rid of separate higher and ordinary level classes in English and Irish.

rainbowtrout

Boober Fraggle wrote: »

I don't believe this will affect guidance councillors in most schools. I think principals will keep the guidance councillor, and make cuts elsewhere, like getting rid of separate higher and ordinary level classes in English and Irish.

I doubt it, schools are already cutting subjects and levels. We would have had 4 classes for each of Irish, English and Maths at Leaving Cert level a couple of years ago and now we only have three of each and there are the guts of 30 students in each class, there's no more room for movement.

I think timetabled hours for Guidance with senior classes will remain but hours given to the GC to allow for office work and meeting students on a one to one basis will go by the wayside.

golden virginia

yes, I think the counselling side is practically decimated from here on.

And its something that is a terrible loss, but in some instances and increasingly so - schools were using their guidance allocation on class teaching ( sometimes not on career guidance either) as opposed to counselling - so I think its a case of use it or loose it - and now its lost!:(

Lord TSC

Pete2012 wrote: »

The course that started this year in UL costs €10k! It is a 2 year course with very heavy course work. Will the government reimburse guidance counsellors for their course fees considering they are making the job null and void? and who will do this work now in schools?

This was one of the first thoughts when I read about this. Imagine going in to that course this morning, knowing it was all for nought.

I had three useless GCs in my school, but its something I think every school should have. A good GC could do a world of wonders for so many schools in so many ways.

smallgarden

this is the equivalent of losing a teacher or half a teacher in alot of schools. temporary teachers dont realise that their job is at risk as permanent guidance teachers will still have to get their full hours whether in guidance or in subject teaching

number10a

I've never heard of a good guidance counsellor, even after speaking to friends I made in college who were from all corners of the country. The one we had in my school had a simple formula:

Girl = Nurse
Boy = Engineer

Although he did suggest to one friend of mine that she should go and work in Marks & Spencer simply because he got a leaflet from them that morning. Same girl is now a secondary school French and Geography teacher with a permanent position.

And as an endnote, counsellor he certainly was not.

kob29

Most schools do not have then need for a 22hr per week guidance counselor. Good ones are rare definitely!

rainbowtrout

kob29 wrote: »

Most schools do not have then need for a 22hr per week guidance counselor. Good ones are rare definitely!

Most schools don't have a guidance counsellor for 22 hours a week. A school is only entitled to 22 hours for guidance if it has more than 500 students. Otherwise guidance hours are allocated on a pro rata basis. A school of 400 will have about 17-18 hours for guidance.

smallgarden

The inspectorate in Guidance actually showed that Guidance Counsellors are way overworked. Most full time ones work 9-4pm in the school Monday to Friday rather than just the 22 hours they're supposed to. There are of course good and bad guidance counsellors just like there are good and bad teachers. Its a pity the few poor ones tarnish the reputation of the rest. You regularly hear the disaster stories and rarely hear about the good stories

implausible

number10a wrote: »

I've never heard of a good guidance counsellor, even after speaking to friends I made in college who were from all corners of the country.

And as an endnote, counsellor he certainly was not.

I think a lot of people are basing their opinions of Guidance Counsellors on the one they had in school, which makes it very subjective. The job has changed considerably in the last few years. It's no longer just giving advice on filling out a CAO, having a few meetings with students and teaching the odd Career's class. The GCs in the system now are qualified counsellors and are an invaluable part of the pastoral care team in the school. Form teachers and yearheads do not have the time and are not always equipped to deal with every single personal problem a student may be experiencing.

kob29 wrote: »

Most schools do not have then need for a 22hr per week guidance counselor.

Even a school with 500+ students? Really?

golden virginia

Who is going to identify and organize the assessment of student with special educational needs when the Guidance Counsellors are gone ?