Cardinal Sean Brady aware of abuse in 1975

efb

awec wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17981898

"Bishop Donal McKeown criticises politicians over Cardinal Brady response"

Just how detached from reality are this lot? Trying to paint Brady as some sort of victim?!

You couldn't make it up. :rolleyes:

Catholic Hierarchy playing the victim... theres a surprise!

Zebra3

How the f*** do some people think Brady done the right thing in reporting it to a bishop? It should have been reported to the police and the fact that Brady pressured young kids into not reporting child abuse means he should be investigated for perverting the course of justice.

Biggins

Zebra3 wrote: »

How the f*** do some people think Brady done the right thing in reporting it to a bishop? It should have been reported to the police and the fact that Brady pressured young kids into not reporting child abuse means he should be investigated for perverting the course of justice.

1. This arrogant sod is NOT going to resign.

2. Rome and its religious head dictators are going to back him to the hilt. If they don’t – it would be an open admission that they were/are wrong!

3. Any addressing they did wrong would also call into question their cannon laws over state laws.

NOTE how they deftly have avoided not saying they were wrong not to inform Garda or Police. They are hoping this one issue will quietly go away. If they allowed Brady to resign, they would be partly admitting that they wrong to use cannon law to take precedence over State laws.

If they allowed Brady to resign, it would be a part admission that they were wrong also in allowing their org’s connon law rules to superceed the state laws of not one country but two. So they are saying nothing – not even saying sorry to the state for (a) breaking state laws in not revealing crimes of a serious nature and (b) not saying sorry for allowing their rules to have sway over national laws.

Instead they are doing the usual of giving a meek apology for what they even have to be forced to acknowledge and little more. They still won’t pay the money that is owed (750 million) to many and to the state which by their not paying in compensation, has to be left to the state (thats you and I) to further cough up while they continue to get richer and ask for more money in their collection plates every week!

They still won't admit - although it is now well known - that they lied to one, possibly two police forces of two countries when they were asked if such inquires had even taken place! They are not apologising for that either - and remember these lies they made, came from a church that even now dares to preach to us of morals! One top religious org that is sick in double standards!

Pushtrak

Link

The number increased to well over 1,000 and, unusually for a day-long conference, continued to grow as the day progressed. The attendance was, Fr Hoban felt, “a huge statement” of the desire of Catholics for change.

Many were priests, many were nuns, most were laity. Almost all were middle-aged and older. But then the average age of an Irish Catholic priest today is 64, while the age profile generally seemed an accurate reflection of those at any weekend Mass. They were broadly representative of Ireland’s practising Catholics.

Link

Several years ago, I had a brief meeting with Seán Brady in a hotel lobby, a meeting spontaneously instigated by him. My fleeting impression was he was a decent, modest man, and nothing that has been revealed since then disturbs that impression.

...

I also feel sympathy for Brady in defending now what he did then - and even sympathy for his shocking insistence that he would do the same again. He seems trapped in the ethos, regularities, hierarchies and deferences of the Catholic Church, a mindset (or habitus) which obscures from him, or quietens in him, the normal human impulses to care for children in danger.

...

It is not that there is a delinquent cardinal who failed, 36 years ago, to act to protect children he believed were in danger, other than via the regularities of the Catholic Church. It is that there is a worldwide culture that exists in this same habitus, into which some normal human decencies do not intrude. Of course, Brady should not resign as Cardinal Primate of all Ireland, for he diligently adhered to the practices and regularities of the Catholic Church.

sardonic

Saw Deliver Us From Evil for the first time yesterday. Sean Brady should be locked in a room and made to watch it.
http://youtu.be/5cYv9wKH7CE

Dubhlinner

politicians shouldn't call for him to resign. they should call for people to recognise that this is the ethos of the church and walk away from it.

Pushtrak

Dubhlinner wrote: »

politicians shouldn't call for him to resign. they should call for people to recognise that this is the ethos of the church and walk away from it.

Then you'd have people call for their heads. Would be nice if reality was such that people would realise this is a better approach to the situation (without the need for anyone to say anything), but alas...

Rabidlamb

At this difficult time for the church & Cardinal Brady I would like to call for greater prayer & reflection on our lords teachings.
That might allow enough time for the media focus to fall on some other story & feck off.
The church, masters of the long grass method since 100 AD.

Pushtrak

http://www.u.tv/News/McGuinness-says-church-failed-victims/a431eac9-fbf1-4c6a-82b6-9b5e3ab959f4

What is of greater importance is the attitude of the Catholic Church in the Vatican and how it has miserably failed victims of child sex abuse.

Martin McGuinness
Mr McGuinness also referred to the "progressive priests silenced by the Vatican", a comment that Political Editor Ken Reid said shows the deputy First Minister feels politicians "must speak up".

"He feels there's a history of the Vatican not dealing with the child abuse which has plagued the church over many years. But he said he's determined to expose the failings of the Catholic Church," explained Ken Reid.

Zebra3

Rabidlamb wrote: »

At this difficult time for the church & Cardinal Brady I would like to call for greater prayer & reflection on our lords teachings.
That might allow enough time for the media focus to fall on some other story & feck off.
The church, masters of the long grass method since 100 AD.

I'd rather call for a police investigation into this scumbag and his corrupt practises. :mad:

Pushtrak

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0508/brendan-boland-welcomes-cardinal-brady-apology.html

In a statement this evening, Mr Boland also said he hopes he may yet find the strength to take up Dr Brady's offer made last November to meet privately.
Mr Boland added: ''I note that Cardinal Brady has now acknowledged that the information I gave him regarding other children being abused or at risk of abuse, should have been passed on to their parents in 1975.
''When I confided in the Youth Club to Father McShane in 1975, he did the right and proper thing in immediately bringing me to my parents and telling them what had been happening to me. It was only after that, that he informed his Superiors.
''If the right thing had been done by Father (now Cardinal) Brady, and Bishop McKiernan, the unspeakable abuse of the other children I had sought to save would not have happened. Both Cardinal Brady and I will have to live with our guilt in that regard."
But he said that his healing, and that of many other abuse victims, would not begin while Cardinal Brady remained as Primate of the Catholic Church in Ireland.

Biggins

Zebra3 wrote: »

I'd rather call for a police investigation into this scumbag and his corrupt practises. :mad:

It's the only way this shower will learn - that and no one filling up their collection plates!
(While they at the same time won't pay up to victims - which the 1.5 Billion is then left for the state, you and I, to pay.)

catthinkin

If there is a god and he came back down to earth I doubt he would ever stop throwing up at what these people have done in his name .

Suffer little children come unto me , how apt how criminal how corrupt.

Mammanabammana

For those people - and I'm frankly amazed that ANY still remain - who feel Brady's position can be in some way defended, or that he did as much as he could at ANY point, please watch this before you next defend him either here or elsewhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODvv6tQ3naQ

WhatNowForUs?

Biggins wrote: »

Zebra3 wrote: »

I'd rather call for a police investigation into this scumbag and his corrupt practises. :mad:

It's the only way this shower will learn - that and no one filling up their collection plates!
(While they at the same time won't pay up to victims - which the 1.5 Billion is then left for the state, you and I, to pay.)

Hi I have a question,
this money you refer to, is this the compensation that was agreed with a previous minister Dr Woods. Could you send me evidence that they are not paying it if that is possible.

Biggins

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

Hi I have a question,
this money you refer to, is this the compensation that was agreed with a previous minister Dr Woods. Could you send me evidence that they are not paying it if that is possible.

No problem:

* http://www.independent.ie/national-news/minister-says-orders-cant-pay-their-share-of-15bn-abuse-bill-3073838.html

Pushtrak

Op-ed pieces, gotta love 'em...

Regarding the May 7 editorial “The passivity of the Catholic Church”:

The Catholic Church has done more to deal with sexual abuse of minors than probably any other group working with young people. The church has instituted an educational program reaching 4.8 million minors and 2.1 million adults who work or volunteer with them. It provides healing to people in need, even if they were abused decades ago. Last year alone, outreach was provided to more than 2,000 people harmed by clerics.

Child sexual abuse is a serious societal problem. Perhaps The Post might serve its readers better were it to look into what schools and other youth-oriented programs do or do not do to address it. The Post would probably find that the church is in the lead in providing an intelligent and caring approach.

No one would like to undo the harms of the past more than the bishops, but to continually lament what was not done 20 years ago helps no one.

More than 95 percent of priests have never sexually abused a child, yet the church has made child and youth protection the highest priority. The church publicly urges victims to come forth for assistance, a clear sign that it cares more for the injured than maintaining any image.

bbam

I think cardinal Brady should stand down and come clean on exactly what he knows.

However, the carry on of Brendan Smith was widely known in the area and throughout the county. Doctors, teachers,guards, shopkeepers and the people of the area all knew what was going on, yet they did nothing.
Twice Brendan smith was sent for treatment for peado carry on and was released back by professionals to be in public.
Parents bringing their children to Kilnacrott for confessions knew not to let them out of sight due to his carry on, I spoke to one such person.
Shop keepers would refuse to sell him sweets as they knew why he wanted them.
There was a shocking reigem of silence about him and others. But please don't think this silence was limited to the church, it was well known and nobody did anything.

gimme5minutes

bbam wrote: »

I think cardinal Brady should stand down and come clean on exactly what he knows.

However, the carry on of Brendan Smith was widely known in the area and throughout the county. Doctors, teachers,guards, shopkeepers and the people of the area all knew what was going on, yet they did nothing.
Twice Brendan smith was sent for treatment for peado carry on and was released back by professionals to be in public.
Parents bringing their children to Kilnacrott for confessions knew not to let them out of sight due to his carry on, I spoke to one such person.
Shop keepers would refuse to sell him sweets as they knew why he wanted them.
There was a shocking reigem of silence about him and others. But please don't think this silence was limited to the church, it was well known and nobody did anything.

I am sick of this nonsense of 'shopkeepers knew, teachers knew, .... but they did nothing'. The only ones with the power to do anything were the gardai. And the gardai were in the pocket of the church just like the politicians. If a guard caused trouble for the church a bishop would have a word with his superior and he could forget about having any kind of career and would be looking at a transfer to the other side of the country. There were decent guards back in the day who tryed to bring paedo priests to justice but had their careers and lives ruined for it. The church has had the run of this place for a long time and if you weren't a team player you would not rise up the ranks in politics/law enforcement.

ScumLord

The Catholic Church has done more to deal with sexual abuse of minors than probably any other group working with young people....

...Since we've stopped abusing children instances of paedophilia have dropped to a record low.

bbam

In fairness were all sick of it.
But do you not think the same happened to priests?
If they caused any trouble or ripples in the church they would be shoved off to another parish in backward Ireland.

I'm not excusing anyone, it's just that it's being made sound like only one man in the whole world knew what was going on when the opposite was true.

These priests were well known by the wider community at the time, both those in positions of power and ordinary folk. Mostly they turned a blind eye not wanting to say it out loud. Those who tried were persecuted for it It was a very different time in Ireland, thankfully were moving beyond it, if slowly and painfully.

It's time cardinal Brady and others came forward and told what he knows about this and any other cases he knows about, and there are more. Strangely the ongoing silence and drip feeding of information is damaging the church he is trying to protect, you'd imagine they'd see that.

WhatNowForUs?

gimme5minutes wrote: »

I am sick of this nonsense of 'shopkeepers knew, teachers knew, .... but they did nothing'. The only ones with the power to do anything were the gardai. And the gardai were in the pocket of the church just like the politicians. If a guard caused trouble for the church a bishop would have a word with his superior and he could forget about having any kind of career and would be looking at a transfer to the other side of the country. There were decent guards back in the day who tryed to bring paedo priests to justice but had their careers and lives ruined for it. The church has had the run of this place for a long time and if you weren't a team player you would not rise up the ranks in politics/law enforcement.

We need to have an 'international' (persons from outside this state) investigation into this, one in which there are no connections to the church or irish authorities.

We need to find out what the different institutions knew and how they handled and covered up the abuses. We need to know how communities covered it up and to what extent this was due to pressure from organisations. (This country can be used as a case study for other countries where this will come to light)

We then need to bring the perpertrators and those who prevented justice from being done, to justice.

This country suffered and there are people out there who are still suffering and will do to their dying day. We owe it to them.

Biggins

Pushtrak wrote: »

Op-ed pieces, gotta love 'em...

The Catholic Church has done more to deal with sexual abuse of minors than probably any other group working with young people.

Thats like saying "The Union of Leg Breakers have adopted safer methods to extract money because they have decided to now stop breaking legs."

The damage has already been done.
Just because they (supposedly) have stopped doing what they did before, does not mean they have additionally taken a pro-active role by effect and these efforts have overtaken all others to boot!

As the bit "...probably any other group working with young people" - thats just a laughable statement to make. Talk about blatant propaganda!
The American author is a contently blind idiot, who refuses to see the many American organisations that have done more probably in one year of operation than the whole of the evil Rome org since it has been exposed worldwide what they inner sick members was doing.

Min

Biggins wrote: »

Thats like saying "The Union of Leg Breakers have adopted safer methods to extract money because they have decided to now stop breaking legs."

The damage has already been done.
Just because they (supposedly) have stopped doing what they did before, does not mean they have additionally taken a pro-active role by effect and these efforts have overtaken all others to boot!

As the bit "...probably any other group working with young people" - thats just a laughable statement to make. Talk about blatant propaganda!
The American author is a contently blind idiot, who refuses to see the many American organisations that have done more probably in one year of operation than the whole of the evil Rome org since it has been exposed worldwide what they inner sick members was doing.

In regards to Ireland:
The Cloyne commission report said "The Commission acknowledges that the standards which were adopted by the Church are high standards which, if fully implemented, would afford proper protection to children. The standards set by the State are less precise and more difficult to implement."

So in the case of Ireland the state has been overtaken by the church when it comes to child protection policy according to the Cloyne commission if they fully implemented the policy. The problem in Cloyne is the policy was not implemented unlike other dioceses.

Biggins

Min wrote: »

In regards to Ireland:
The Cloyne commission report said "The Commission acknowledges that the standards which were adopted by the Church are high standards which, if fully implemented, would afford proper protection to children. The standards set by the State are less precise and more difficult to implement."

So in the case of Ireland the state has been overtaken by the church when it comes to child protection policy according to the Cloyne commission if they fully implemented the policy. The problem in Cloyne is the policy was not implemented unlike other dioceses.

For the record and for clarity:

1. ...if fully implemented...

2.

...the state has been overtaken by the church when it comes to child protection policy according to the Cloyne commission if they fully implemented the policy.

So the state COULD BE over taken IF...

NOT "...has been..."

...But its more spin isn't it!

Paparazzo

I also like the bit:

More than 95 percent of priests have never sexually abused a child, yet the church has made child and youth protection the highest priority. The church publicly urges victims to come forth for assistance, a clear sign that it cares more for the injured than maintaining any image

As if 1 child rapist in every 20 people is supposed to be a figure to be proud of. And that's not counting non abusers that knew what was going on which is a hell of a lot higher.
Reminds me of the Chris Rock sketch. Someone saying "I aint never hit my wife" as if it's something to be proud of.

Min

Biggins wrote: »

For the record and for clarity:

1. ...if fully implemented...

2.

So the state COULD BE over taken IF...

NOT "...has been..."

...But its more spin isn't it!

If you believe the Cloyne commission report was spin.

Biggins

Min wrote: »

If you believe the Cloyne commission report was spin.

No, your misreading my post (on purpose?).
I'll try again 'cos clearly you wish to only read in one suited way.

---

Only the foolish would to try and spin a commission report by espousing that:

...the standards which were adopted by the Church are high standards which, if fully implemented, would afford proper protection to children.

...which would be correct IF they WERE fully implemented (not so!) and

2.

...the state has been overtaken by the church when it comes to child protection policy according to the Cloyne commission if they fully implemented the policy.

NOT "...has been..."

So the state COULD BE overtaken IF fully implemented...

NOT "...has been..."

Again just so you don't try misinterpreting to others (what I am saying and NOT what you say I'm saying), what I am saying is that Rome and its fools would try spining a report to suit themselves.

In short.

1. They have not fully implemented the report
2. There is no evidence whatsoever they have overtaken the state.

If anyone says different, also foolishly by spinning words within the commission report, assuming some of us can't actually read them - they better prove and back their crap up!

---

So far what have they done?

http://www.catholica.com.au/forum/index.php?id=79431

The Cloyne Report reveals guidelines not implemented.

---

The ironic part for those espousing that the report can be spun as good for the church is that..

Vatican refutes Taoiseach's Cloyne claims as "unfounded"

http://www.cinews.ie/article.php?artid=8964

Strange that!

Min

Biggins wrote: »

No, your misreading my post (on purpose?).
I'll try again 'cos clearly you wish to only read in one suited way.

---

Only the foolish would to try and spin a commission report by espousing that:



...which would be correct IF they WERE fully implemented (not so!) and

2.


NOT "...has been..."

So the state COULD BE overtaken IF fully implemented...

NOT "...has been..."

Again just so you don't try misinterpreting to others (what I am saying and NOT what you say I'm saying), what I am saying is that Rome and its fools would try spining a report to suit themselves.

In short.

1. They have not fully implemented the report
2. There is no evidence whatsoever they have overtaken the state.

If anyone says different, also foolishly by spinning words within the commission report, assuming some of us can't actually read them - they better prove and back their crap up!

---

So far what have they done?

http://www.catholica.com.au/forum/index.php?id=79431

The Cloyne Report reveals guidelines not implemented.

---

The ironic part for those espousing that the report can be spun as good for the church is that..

Vatican refutes Taoiseach's Cloyne claims as "unfounded"

http://www.cinews.ie/article.php?artid=8964

Strange that!

But they were fully implemented in Cloyne in 2008.

This is from the Irish times:

The revised standards for child protection are welcome, but is it not shameful that the Cloyne report said that “the standards which were adopted by the church are high standards which, if fully implemented, would afford proper protection to children. The standards set by the State are less precise and more difficult to implement”. In other words, the utterly disgraced church made a better fist of drafting standards to protect children than the State.
The church was undermined by people like John Magee and Denis O’Callaghan. Their failures have allowed people to allege the sterling work of the National Board for Safeguarding Children is fatally flawed because a bishop might lie about his diocese.
This, despite the fact that the brief of the Murphy commission would not have been extended to Cloyne without the work of the board.
In July 2008, a report on child protection services presented to the office for the minister for children stated: “Although the [Children First] guidelines set out clear responsibility, some HSE areas are implementing them in full, others are implementing some parts, while others are not operating the guidelines at all. We have been informed that this is due to lack of resources and lack of capacity.”
Yes, 2008, when the diocese of Cloyne woke up, due to an almighty kick from the National Board for Safeguarding Children.
The church has rightly been excoriated for not implementing its own guidelines in Cloyne until 2008. Will the State receive equal opprobrium?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0716/1224300819469.html

So it is not a case of if but they have implemented the child protection policy.
It was the churches own safeguarding body that brought up the problems in Cloyne that lead to the independent commission by the state reporting on it..

Biggins

Min wrote: »

But they were fully implemented in Cloyne in 2008.

This is from the Irish times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0716/1224300819469.html

The revised standards for child protection are welcome, but is it not shameful that the Cloyne report said that “the standards which were adopted by the church are high standards which, if fully implemented, would afford proper protection to children. The standards set by the State are less precise and more difficult to implement”. In other words, the utterly disgraced church made a better fist of drafting standards to protect children than the State.
The church was undermined by people like John Magee and Denis O’Callaghan. Their failures have allowed people to allege the sterling work of the National Board for Safeguarding Children is fatally flawed because a bishop might lie about his diocese.
This, despite the fact that the brief of the Murphy commission would not have been extended to Cloyne without the work of the board.
In July 2008, a report on child protection services presented to the office for the minister for children stated: “Although the [Children First] guidelines set out clear responsibility, some HSE areas are implementing them in full, others are implementing some parts, while others are not operating the guidelines at all. We have been informed that this is due to lack of resources and lack of capacity.”
Yes, 2008, when the diocese of Cloyne woke up, due to an almighty kick from the National Board for Safeguarding Children.
The church has rightly been excoriated for not implementing its own guidelines in Cloyne until 2008. Will the State receive equal opprobrium?

So it is not a case of if but they have implemented the child protection policy.
It was the churches own safeguarding body that brought up the problems in Cloyne that lead to the independent commission by the state reporting on it..

Please point out the EXACT sentence in that report that states they were implemented.

Not point out that they MIGHT be good (enough to beat the state) in the future IF they do so!