Who says a riot can't be good?

zero_hope

Everyone says riots are bad and all protests should be peaceful. I say this is a foolish thought. When politicians let speculators destroy a country it's very rational to riot until you force the government to resign. This is exactly what happened in Iceland. They had riots, the government was forced to resign and they gave the middle finger to the banks. Now Iceland are back in the bond market and are in a better situation than Ireland. So who says a riot can't be good?

Permabear

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zero_hope

Permabear wrote: »

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I think that is what rightwing nutters call "collateral damage"

Guy:Incognito

I doubt youd be thinking rioting was good if you owned a shop in the middle of it that you depended on as your livelyhood.

Destroying other peoples property isnt protesting.

Permabear

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zero_hope

Permabear wrote: »

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Obviously I'm not saying that every riot is good BUT they can be good. For example if politicians decide to bailout banks on the banks if people burn down parliament they probably stop this from happen. In a true Democracy the politicians should be scared of their people. As I said they had riots in Iceland and now they are back in the bond markets... Where is Ireland at the moment? Going down the drain.

Chuck Stone

Permabear wrote: »

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Cost of UK Riots £100m

Cost of 'Irish' property speculators, banksters and politicians, €100 Billion?

Permabear

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zero_hope

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Cost of UK Riots 100m

Cost of 'Irish' property speculators, banksters and politicians, 100 Billion?

Surely puts things in perspective, also how many people will die because of lack of health care or freeze to death in their homes because they cannot afford to heat it properly?

Patser

Iceland didn;t have any serious riots. They did have mass, well organised protests. They voted to previous Govt out, seriously devalued their currency which means that many Icelandics will be paying off their mortgages for generations. They've also suffered mass emigration ( http://www.swedishwire.com/nordic/3678-masssive-emigration-wave-hits-iceland ). And they're still negotiating on repaying their international debts.

All in all a dignified, well organised national response to a very, very painful crash.

Greece has had mass riots, which has completely devastated their tourist industry (one of their main sources of employment). This has plunged them into a much, much deeper recession ( - 10%), solved none of their problems and has put them into the back pocket of the Troika for 10 years. Also while inflicting what you disgustingly infer as 'collateral damage' as in innocent deaths. Not to mention destroying the quality of life for people there (no rubbish collection, tear gas in the air etc)

Ireland on the other hand has economic growth (not great but better than economic collapse) and we are trying to work our way out of the mess through debate, organised protest (Occupy Dame St for example) and never ever letting FF forget we know who was responsible. We've also had one of our best years for tourist numbers in ages. So why ruin all that just for a pointless riot.


Growth rates:

zero_hope

Permabear wrote: »

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Greece had a writedown of their debt, what did Ireland get?

beeftotheheels

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Cost of UK Riots £100m

Cost of 'Irish' property speculators, banksters and politicians, €100 Billion?

Violent deaths caused by Irish bailout = zero
Violent deaths caused by UK riots = five

People physically injured by bankers and property developers = zero
People physically injured by the riots = 300+

Grow up!

Permabear

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Patser

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Cost of UK Riots £100m

Cost of 'Irish' property speculators, banksters and politicians, €100 Billion?

2 wrongs don't make a right. What exactly did the UK riots achieve? Or are you saying that speculators did bad, so we can all do bad now too?

zero_hope

Patser wrote: »

2 wrongs don't make a right. What exactly did the UK riots achieve? Or are you saying that speculators did bad, so we can all do bad now too?

What I'm saying is a riot should be targeted at the ruling class to punish them and physically hurt them. In fact I think the likes of Bertie should face the guillotine, this is the only rational solution.

zero_hope

Permabear wrote: »

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Yes through riots they show that austerity will not work and the interantional bankers are left with no other choice than to write down their debts.

Chuck Stone

beeftotheheels wrote: »

Violent deaths caused by UK riots = five

A tragedy for their families.

People physically injured by bankers and property developers = many

No violent deaths but infinitely more socially destructive.

Try to develop an understanding because I don't think I have the talent to help you get it.

Grow up!

Whist. I'm probably older than you.

Patser

zero_hope wrote: »

What I'm saying is a riot should be targeted at the ruling class to punish them and physically hurt them. In fact I think the likes of Bertie should face the guillotine, this is the only rational solution.

So due process, the assumption of innocence and all that should go out the window in favour of mob rule and lets all 'physically hurt' whoever it is we feel is the ruling class.

And are all these rulers just going to hang around near your riot, shouting 'Hurt me, please!' or will it instead be a mass face off between rioters and Gardai/Army

Permabear

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zero_hope

Patser wrote: »

So due process, the assumption of innocence and all that should go out the window in favour of mob rule and lets all 'physically hurt' whoever it is we feel is the ruling class.

And are all these rulers just going to hang around near your riot, shouting 'Hurt me, please!' or will it instead be a mass face off between rioters and Gardai/Army

No when it comes to the likes of Bertie I don't believe in "due process" because laws are always set up to protect the ruling class.

Chuck Stone

Patser wrote: »

2 wrongs don't make a right.

Where did I make that claim?

What exactly did the UK riots achieve?

Very little I'd imagine. Is this a trick question?

Or are you saying that speculators did bad, so we can all do bad now too?

Are you asking me to dispense advice for this 'we' you speak of?

Patser

zero_hope wrote: »

No when it comes to the likes of Bertie I don't believe in "due process" because laws are always set up to protect the ruling class.

Zero Hope =

Patser

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Where did I make that claim?

Very little I'd imagine. Is this a trick question?

Are you asking me to dispense advice for this 'we' you speak of?

By comparing the costs of the UK riots to speculators losses, you seemed to be suggesting that since the riots cost a lot less, they were justified and that we (the Irish people) could fairly go out and riot.

Sorry if I misinterpreted your original post, that's just how I picked it up:o

beeftotheheels

Chuck Stone wrote: »

No violent deaths but infinitely more socially destructive.

Infinitely socially more destructive? Infinitely? Deaths, injuries, foreign students being beaten up, elderly people being terrified, people watching loved ones being hurt but Irish people having to balance our budgets because oh heck, we shouldn't have spent all that money the property developers and bankers used to make and pay in taxes? That is infinitely more destructive in your book?

I'm not by any stretch saying that we're blessed by the bubble bursting. But we have similar law and order to before. A huge rise in homelessness in Dublin year on year is measured in double digits. We don't have starvation, we don't have abject poverty, and we don't have people in fear for their lives so I have to disagree, this is not "infinitely more socially destructive" even without mentioning the renewed sense of community which people up and down Ireland are experiencing.

Chuck Stone

beeftotheheels wrote: »

Infinitely socially more destructive? Infinitely?

Infinitely is a poor choice of word granted.

Regardless, to magnify the social destruction of rioters (who I do not condone in any way btw) while willfully ignoring the social destruction done by the speculators, bankers, and politicians is horribly convenient for some wouldn't you say?

beeftotheheels

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Infinitely is a poor choice of word granted.

Regardless, to magnify the social destruction of rioters (who I do not condone in any way btw) while willfully ignoring the social destruction done by the speculators, bankers, and politicians is horribly convenient for some wouldn't you say?

Except that presupposes that any one "willfully ignored the social destruction done by the speculators, politicians and bankers".

Bertie, Brian and a couple of others aside I don't think you will find any one in the country of that position.

However, acknowledging the damage done to us as a society does not require condoning in any way shape or form rioting, as this thread sets out to do, nor does it require that you make spurious statements dictating that apples are infinitely nicer than cheese.

It is possible to acknowledge things while retaining a sense of perspective and reason.

johnners2981

beeftotheheels wrote: »

Violent deaths caused by Irish bailout = zero
Violent deaths caused by UK riots = five

People physically injured by bankers and property developers = zero
People physically injured by the riots = 300+

Grow up!

Bankers and property developers have destroyed some peoples lives, that's worse than some temporary injuries.

White collar crime should be taken as seriously here as it is in America, Enron Ceo got 24 years in jail.

Those corrupt bankers, developers and rioters are the same, all criminals

Permabear

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Chuck Stone

beeftotheheels wrote: »

It is possible to acknowledge things while retaining a sense of perspective and reason.

Yet you seem to be placing a massive amount of value on the pain and suffering caused by the riots in the UK while willfully ignoring the pain and suffering caused by speculators, bankers and politicians (SBP's) here.

beeftotheheels wrote: »

Violent deaths caused by Irish bailout = zero
Violent deaths caused by UK riots = five

People physically injured by bankers and property developers = zero
People physically injured by the riots = 300+

There is no cost analysis of people who have been injured, emotionally and financially by what went on in this and other countries by (SBP's).

How many people will lose loved ones due to suicide from stress and depression?

How many people have lost their jobs and have a hugely reduced quality of life?

How many people will lose their properties because they listened to people who were supposed to be experts? And for them to be insulted by paying for the mistakes of the those who they trusted by increased taxes and reduced quality of life?

I agree that perspective is needed. It just sticks in the craw somewhat when people who trashed the economies of the world, and then foot the public with the bill, complain about the damage done by rioters.

What's worse is that these 'upper tier' economy trashing riots end with the rioters walking away from the ashes of their mistakes with their pockets stuffed with the cash of fat pensions and golden handshakes at the expense of their victims.

Yes, lets try to use a little perspective.

Chuck Stone

Permabear wrote: »

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Firstly I agree with much of what you say but on the rule of law I diverge somewhat.

If we spent half the time energy and resources regulating banks, corporations, public sector unions and politicians as we do on regulating the behaviour of people at the bottom of society we probably wouldn't be asking those who are losing the most to foot the bill for those who profited.

meglome

Permabear wrote: »

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This is what actually amazes me, that people don't think they had any responsibility for what happened. I think it's fair to say people got exactly what they repeatedly voted for. Most didn't stop to consider the long term consequences of what they wanted. Now I have plenty of things to criticise FF and the bankers for but I cannot ignore that we as a people did actual get exactly what we wanted at the time.

larchielads

is it possible just to stop payin tax?? just go in monday mornin into the wages office and say hi my name is john/mary i work in the sales do not take any tax from my wages this week. if everyone did it just for a week just to show that people are serious and threaten to do it again until major changes are made. could a scenario like that be possible. wonder what would happen if it did???

meglome

larchielads wrote: »

is it possible just to stop payin tax?? just go in monday mornin into the wages office and say hi my name is john/mary i work in the sales do not take any tax from my wages this week. if everyone did it just for a week just to show that people are serious and threaten to do it again until major changes are made. could a scenario like that be possible. wonder what would happen if it did???

No you can't do this but what change are you looking for specifically?

larchielads

well to be honest im not too well versed in politics just wondering what might be achieved if we stopped paying taxes for a while. ok i get that that there needs to be taxes in place for the country to run and stuff but if they are gonna hit us in the pocket why cant we hit them in their pockets i.e. dont give them our taxes and that way they dont get paid either. just a notion in my head is all more than likely makes no sense whatsoever!

meglome

larchielads wrote: »

well to be honest im not too well versed in politics just wondering what might be achieved if we stopped paying taxes for a while. ok i get that that there needs to be taxes in place for the country to run and stuff but if they are gonna hit us in the pocket why cant we hit them in their pockets i.e. dont give them our taxes and that way they dont get paid either. just a notion in my head is all more than likely makes no sense whatsoever!

Hit who exactly?

larchielads

the politicians, the people who we pay to run the country, but im sure theres somethin in that wonderful croke park agreement to make sure they get paid outta somwhere if we didnt pay tax. as i said not well versed on the aul politics it was just an idea floatin around in me head is all.

Chuck Stone

larchielads wrote: »

the politicians, the people who we pay to run the country, but im sure theres somethin in that wonderful croke park agreement to make sure they get paid outta somwhere if we didnt pay tax. as i said not well versed on the aul politics it was just an idea floatin around in me head is all.

It's almost impossible to avoid paying tax because the vast majority of people pay tax at source from their wage packets and in the form of VAT (buying stuff).

seanybiker

Chuck Stone wrote: »

It's almost impossible to avoid paying tax because the vast majority of people pay tax at source from their wage packets and in the form of VAT (buying stuff).

according to some Numpty on the Waterford forums, we don't have to pay anything.
But yeah we all pay taxes.

meglome

seanybiker wrote: »

according to some Numpty on the Waterford forums, we don't have to pay anything.
But yeah we all pay taxes.

We'll we don't have to live here if we don't want to pay. Of course that would involve going to another country and paying their taxes instead.

RichardAnd

OP, peaceful protest can achieve results in many cases. 80k people going on a march probably won't do anything other than demonstrating opposition but peacefully blocking roads, refusing to carry out services and such can bring about changes.

A riot however, brings out the very worst aspects of human nature via herd behavior. People who are otherwise rational can be stirred up by the moment and commit acts they would never carry out otherwise. There is a time for action, certainly, but lighting torches and burning buildings to the ground without reason is solving nothing.

FreudianSlippers

zero_hope wrote: »

Everyone says riots are bad and all protests should be peaceful. I say this is a foolish thought. When politicians let speculators destroy a country it's very rational to riot until you force the government to resign. This is exactly what happened in Iceland. They had riots, the government was forced to resign and they gave the middle finger to the banks. Now Iceland are back in the bond market and are in a better situation than Ireland. So who says a riot can't be good?

I take it you weren't present for the Queen's visit either. I'd like to use a word, but it's banned here.

Spudmonkey

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Cost of UK Riots £100m

Cost of 'Irish' property speculators, banksters and politicians, €100 Billion?

Which would be all well and good had they actually rioted for something worthwhile. All they did was destroy peoples livelihoods. They rioted behind the thin veil of protesting for equality when that was no-where near their intention.

swordofislam

beeftotheheels wrote: »

People physically injured by bankers and property developers = zero
People physically injured by the riots = 300+

Grow up!

• Old women lying on trollies (they aren't injured)
• Children beaten by parents driven to drink by unemployment (they aren't injured)
• Children who break their legs on ghost estates (they aren't injured)
• Women who die of breast cancer because the appointment didn't catch it in time (they aren't injured)
• Babies in cars that spin out of control because the road between the ghost estate and the creche couldn't be fixed (they aren't injured)
• People who kill themselves because of debt (they aren't injured)

I suspect that bankers and property developers have injured far more than 300+ people and Ireland is much smaller than the UK.

GROW UP!

swordofislam

Spudmonkey wrote: »

They rioted behind the thin veil of protesting for equality when that was no-where near their intention.

No they didn't. There was no overt political element to the UK riots. The UK riots were consumerist riots.

FreudianSlippers

swordofislam wrote: »

• Old women lying on trollies (they aren't injured)
• Children beaten by parents driven to drink by unemployment (they aren't injured)
• Children who break their legs on ghost estates (they aren't injured)
• Women who die of breast cancer because the appointment didn't catch it in time (they aren't injured)
• Babies in cars that spin out of control because the road between the ghost estate and the creche couldn't be fixed (they aren't injured)
• People who kill themselves because of debt (they aren't injured)

I suspect that bankers and property developers have injured far more than 300+ people and Ireland is much smaller than the UK.

GROW UP!

Yes, bankers and property developers are constantly making women old, forcing parents to beat their children, breaking the legs of our youths, giving women breast cancer, letting babies drive cars and taunting people into killing themselves.

:shakes fist:

Spudmonkey

swordofislam wrote: »

No they didn't. There was no overt political element to the UK riots. The UK riots were consumerist riots.

Rioters tried to pass it off as sticking it to the government.

swordofislam

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Yeah, I know?

Cool man cool just I read your post wrong or something. Though you said that they claimed to rioting for equality. Picked it up wrong.

swordofislam

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Yes, bankers and property developers are constantly making women old, forcing parents to beat their children, breaking the legs of our youths, giving women breast cancer, letting babies drive cars and taunting people into killing themselves.

:shakes fist:

Property developers have bribed politicians to pervert government revenue collection and spending. That kills people.

But hey you can blame rioters in England for our problems if you like. Cool man chill out it is just boards.ie it isn't the internet!

Spudmonkey

swordofislam wrote: »

Cool man cool just I read your post wrong or something. Though you said that they claimed to rioting for equality. Picked it up wrong.

I edited it since.

Several rioters did try to use the excuse that they were out there because they weren't given opportunities. They were out purely for the goods but that didn't stop them using that as an excuse.

swordofislam

I am sure that's true. Some of them must have said that. Of course looting is by its nature a political act but not one that offers any way forward.

bmaxi

While I don't think rioting will solve anything, neither will the apathetic way the Irish people seem content to take it up the arse.
I get tired of people telling me this is what I voted for, I have never voted for Fianna Fáil and I seriously doubt people who did, would have done so if they had known what was down the road. The truth is, we were scammed and lied to by those we put our trust in, this amounts to nothing short of treason. The penalty for treason, even a few short decades ago, was hanging, but we choose instead to featherbed the traitors retirement and those we chose to replace them are content to carry on in the same vein.
So, while rioting will only heap more expense on the taxpayer, I am quite prepared to forgive those who would seek justice, of whatever type, against these traitors.